1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Today's episode is another my favorite Tip episode where I 2 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: go back to interviews from the past and I dig 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: thing that I got out of the interview that really 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: impacted or resonated with me. So today's extract is from 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: my chat with Dom Price. This is my second time 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: having Dom on the show. I loved our first chat 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: so much that I was keen to check back in 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: with him during COVID and see how he was going 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: and how the way he approaches work had changed. So 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: if you haven't come across DOM before, Dom is the 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: head of Research at Development and also the resident work 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: futurist at Atlasian, one of the world's biggest and fastest 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: growing tech companies. Dom has responsibilities spanning five global R 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: and D scent and is the in house team doctor 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: who helps Alessian scale by being ruthlessly effective, all while 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: keeping one eye on the future. So in this extract 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: from my chat with Dom, we talk all about how 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: Dom has been making virtual meetings not suck. So there 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: are some really practical strategies in this extract and I 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: hope you enjoy it. So let's head to Dom and 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: I want to know own your leadership meetings, your leadership 23 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: team meetings, about how you are now solving problems together, 24 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: like what structure are you using, what software are you using, 25 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: how are you facilitating that? Like what what would I 26 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: observe if I was kind of like dialing into one 27 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: of those meetings. 28 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've had to sort of sharpen our pencil there. 29 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: You suddenly realize how many informal rituals and mechanisms you 30 00:01:54,760 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: have in person, certainly around note taking, actions, decisions, reading bodyline. 31 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: What are we doing about that? It's way more dynamic 32 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: because in an in person meeting you can have more 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: than one voice. But if you look at the way 34 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: most video technology works, it really only enables one voice 35 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: at one point in time. Right, And if you're on 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: Zoom or any of these other tools and the three 37 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: people talk, you get this no, no you go, no, no, 38 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: you go, don't amout for you go, right, it's we 39 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 2: all become overly polite. One of the things we've done 40 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 2: is making sure we have clear roles at the start 41 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: of any meeting. So in our leadership meeting, we have 42 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: a wonderful a wonderful lady Nikki who's like our operations person. 43 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: She keeps us honest. And so when we all start 44 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 2: debating something, Nicky is the one who changes and goes, 45 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: is there a decision here? Is there an action? Do 46 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 2: we need to take this offline? Do we need to 47 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: push this now? Is this a good use of our time? 48 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: Just to keep us honest. And then what we've found 49 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: is often if we need to go deep, we will 50 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: allocate it to one or two people and go cool, 51 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: you go and take this away next meeting, come back 52 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: with your update, and we can work on it asynchronously 53 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 2: across the week throughout. But actually we want to say 54 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: that that synchronous time for complex problem solving and debating discussion, 55 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 2: and then what's the stuff we can do asynchronously and 56 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: that way it's easier for everyone to consume. And then 57 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: the other thing that we've added into there, and I 58 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: think we've spoken about this before, but I think we've 59 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: become more sort of heightened on it is the one 60 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: way door, two way door. So the one way door 61 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: decisions are once you've made that decision, it's done right. 62 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: They're the decisions you want to measure twice and cut 63 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: once you want to deliberate, consult and analyze, get all 64 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 2: the data, and be relatively confident you're making the right decision. 65 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: But the vast majority of the decisions that we make 66 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: on a daily basis are two way doors. All right, 67 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: If you walk through the door, you find out what's 68 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: the other side, but if you don't like it, you 69 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: pay a toll for coming back through the door. And 70 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: what we find is is that where there are two 71 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: way door decisions, we allocate them to the person who 72 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 2: we think is to the somebody are our expert, and 73 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: we're like, come back with the decision you make. They 74 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: pros the columns the options, but bring back a page. 75 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: So normally we use confluence or trello, show us the options, 76 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: tell us the decision you've made. Cool, let's proceed. So 77 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: we will discuss and debate for a short period of 78 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: time to help the person, but we're not going to 79 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: overly debate those decisions because we learn a lot more 80 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: by making them and then listening and learning. And I 81 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: think that's almost more true now than ever before, because 82 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: there's so much uncertainty around the world right now. The 83 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 2: idea of perfect decision making, it just doesn't exist. So 84 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: you're like, oh, if you can't make perfect decisions, make 85 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: quick ones instead, and just make sure you're able to 86 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: listen and learn from them. 87 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: That's so good. I think that's such good advice. Well, like, 88 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: what else would I say, Like, for example, how are 89 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: you overcoming the very annoying fact that two people can't 90 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: talk at the same time and you've got the awkward 91 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: no you go, you go, like, how are you getting 92 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: around that? 93 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: I think it's one of those things, is kind of 94 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: we're just getting used to it. I think when it's 95 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 2: only kind of if every fifth meeting with video that 96 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: feels a bit awkward, whereas now we've just got into 97 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: a little bit more of a routine. 98 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: You know. 99 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 2: What we're trying to do is keep our meetings a 100 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: little bit smaller where we can. There seems to be 101 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 2: a tipping point, and I've not I did see some 102 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 2: suggested science on this, but I'm not sure I believe 103 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 2: it yet that there's a tipping point on this size 104 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: of meetings where people just can't contribute and they get 105 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: easily distracted. And then for us, it's about having clear 106 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: roles and agendas. 107 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: And what is that size? Like, what have you found 108 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: in terms of meeting size, in terms of what's what's 109 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: the optimal, what's getting a little bit too big, what's 110 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: definitely too. 111 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 2: Big for me personally? Anything over eight. Right, it's no 112 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: longer a meeting, it's a broadcast. Right. So I did 113 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: a session yesterday. Thirty five people dialed in. Right, it's brilliant. 114 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: It's me doing a presentation to our marketing team on 115 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 2: the future of work. The way I structured it was, 116 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to present for twenty thirty minutes. Use the 117 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 2: chat function in Zoom to log your questions as you 118 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: think of them, so you can ask them as you 119 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: instead of interrupting me. Log them in there as you 120 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 2: think about them, so I've got free flow. And then 121 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 2: the second half of the meeting, we'll go through the 122 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 2: Q and a, Q and A and the discussion. I 123 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: already had the list of questions because I could see 124 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: people's names against them, and that meant that we could 125 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: have smaller dialogue and conversation and we could keep it 126 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 2: to those points. Right, So everyone's still in gauged and 127 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 2: I've got some level of collaboration. It's not the same 128 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: as doing it in the room, and I wouldn't claim 129 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: it was, but at least we got some of the 130 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 2: richness of the feedback loop. And I mentioned that on 131 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: purpose because I think a danger that I've seen, or 132 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: a mistake for a lot of leaders, is they're using 133 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 2: this time of COVID and distributed to just broadcast more 134 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: and they're inadvertently listening less. Right, there's lots of people 135 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: doing loom videos or zoom videos pushing content out, but 136 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: they've forgotten that real communication is using your ears as well. Right, 137 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: it's not just using your math. And if we lose 138 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 2: that sort of message check and understanding how we made 139 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: people feel and the actions they took, then there's no 140 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: point in doing the broadcast. 141 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: I like that a lot. I like your use of 142 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: the chat function, like what I've been doing. I've been 143 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: doing a lot of virtual keynotes now for clients and events, 144 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: and I love that I can have the chat box 145 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: open on my screen so I can almost hear people's 146 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: reactions live because I encourage people to type into the 147 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: chat box and I kind of react where I But 148 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: it's funny. I had this experience a couple of days 149 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: ago where I was doing a virtual keynote to a 150 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: biotech company. There are about four hundred people online and 151 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: as always I encouraged sort of chattered through the chat 152 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: box and they were so chatting, which is awesome, but 153 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: then I'm like, hang on, no, this is overwhelming for me. 154 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: I cannot respond to everyone. So I like what you're 155 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: doing in terms of having the chat box open so 156 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: you can kind of see what's going on there, but 157 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: then carving out time to respond to all that. So 158 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: you've got people recording their reactions and questions in real time, 159 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: but then it's also not interrupting your flow, and I 160 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: imagine that like one of the benefits to that is 161 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: that you're also getting responses from more introverted people who 162 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: perhaps wouldn't normally speak up. Are you finding that? 163 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's what you've hit the nail on 164 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: the head, right, which is you know again, I think 165 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: distributed and the technology using now can exacerbate that problem. Right, 166 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: you can quite easily hide. If there's eight people in 167 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: a video chat. It's not easy to hide, right, you 168 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 2: can just get your phone out and catch upon you 169 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: to list and just leave the video playing, because if 170 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: they don't hear from you, they don't know what you've 171 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: not said. I think it's a lot easier as a facilitator. 172 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: For me, it's a lot easier to spot that inner room. 173 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: But then I think that's the role of a great 174 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: facilitator still, right. We make sure that, certainly for our 175 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: larger meetings, when we're doing problem solving, we have someone 176 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: almost facilitating, like Nikki the operations person, facilitating that conversation 177 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: to keep us honest, keep us on track as top 178 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: us going down those those rabbit holes, but also to 179 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: make sure we're getting the right level engagement. It's not 180 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: that all eight people should have us say in all decisions. 181 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: It's just making sure we tap the right person. So 182 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 2: it's like, ahh, dom, I've heard from you. I've heard 183 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: from you, but amut there, Like, I'd love to hear 184 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: your opinion on this because I think you might have 185 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 2: a view that's important and bringing that person in that's 186 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 2: the same in person is on video. I think it's 187 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: just more important to do on video. And that's what 188 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: the second half of that presentation gave me because suddenly, 189 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: when I stopped sharing my presentation, everyone appears on screen, right, 190 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 2: So I've changed from broadcast to consumption, so I can 191 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: see the people, but also then my job to go, hey, 192 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 2: the teacher I love that question, Becky. I'd love to 193 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: hear your view on that, because I've worked with you 194 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: on this thing before, Like, what's your view? So actually, 195 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: I reckon half the answers came from other people on 196 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: the call, right, which again is just I think facilitation 197 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: one on one. But one of the things that I 198 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: believe to be true in this distributed world is that 199 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: the things in leadership that we used to call soft skills, 200 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 2: and I know me and you share a view on this, 201 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: they're not soft, They're really hard. But those soft skills 202 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: are becoming even more powerful. Meaningful communication, you know, genuine empathy, 203 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: the ability to deliver a vulnerable, open, honest, authentic message, 204 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: to be oneself and to be true to oneself, those 205 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: things are even more valuable than ever before. And so 206 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: I think what we're going to see is the people 207 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: that do that not seamlessly, but the people that do 208 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 2: that naturally are going to become way stronger and better 209 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: leaders as they evolve. And I think that's a skill 210 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 2: set that it's not something that we're born with, right, 211 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 2: I think it's something that and ethers can go and 212 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 2: learn by getting to understand communication or storytelling even more 213 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: that is. 214 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: It for today's show. If you want to listen to 215 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: the full episode, I link to that in the show notes, 216 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: so you might want to check that out. And if 217 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: you are enjoying how I work, I would be so 218 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: deeply grateful if you just take five seconds out of 219 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: your date to leave a review in Apple Podcasts. It 220 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: might be a star rating or a few words, and 221 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: by doing so, it helps other people find the show 222 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: and it also brings a huge smile to my face. 223 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: So thank you to the hundreds of people that have 224 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is 225 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: it for today's show, and I will see you next time.