1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:00,480 Speaker 1: Yesterday. 2 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm trying to get my words out. Yesterday we 3 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 2: spoke to some John Ambulance about the issues raised on 4 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 2: the show by Mark mcshanney regarding wheelchairs being left behind 5 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 2: on callouts. Now. The director of Ambulance Services, Andrew Thomas, 6 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: said that patient care is a priority and where possible 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: mobility aids are folded and secured in a vehicle with 8 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: those patients, but often there isn't space for large wheelchairs 9 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 2: and then they rely on family Kara's taxis to take 10 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: them to the hospital. Now, following that discussion with Andy, 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 2: Cameron Kroger from Keep Moving, which supplies mobility and disability equipment, 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 2: got in touch with a possible solution. Cam joins me 13 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 2: on the line. 14 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: Good morning Cam, Good morning Katie. 15 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 2: How are you? You're really good, lovely to have you 16 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 2: on the show. I think last time we spoke, Cam, 17 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: you were actually helping us out after a dear man 18 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: had his mobility a chair or scooter stolen from him, 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: and you'd helped us out in this situe in that situation, 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 2: so it is always good to have you on the show. Cam. Now, 21 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: what do you make of this situation with well, with 22 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: people not being able to take their electric wheelchairs in 23 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: the ambulance. Yeah. 24 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: Look, thanks, thanks, Katie. It is a real problem I 25 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: have since your since your broadcast yesterday, I have spoken 26 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: to Andy from you know, ambulance Services. I've also spoken 27 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: to Mark from mc schenick about his experience, which was 28 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: familiar to us because we did supply Mark with the 29 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: personal mobility device that he uses and we do service 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: that for him. So, Katie, what do I make of it? First, 31 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: Let's let's just be very clear on what the situation 32 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: that we're referring to. We're referring to situation where the 33 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: person with a disability, who has a what you have 34 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: described as a large mobility device, needs to use an 35 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: ambulance and so they need to be transported to a care. 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: So's there's three possible scenarios that I've heard talked about. 37 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: The first one is sort of the ultimate, which obviously 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: Mark would like to see, which is accessible ambulances that 39 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: you can actually take a large mobility device in. Now, 40 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: we did have one like that in the territory some 41 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: time ago. It did come with its own set of 42 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: issues and risks, and I'm not sure this would be 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: This would be obviously an answer for Andy, but it's 44 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: my suspicion that it is really not practical and certainly 45 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to guarantee an accessible ambulance to 46 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: arrive every time right across the territory. And even if 47 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: you did, I thought about it, Katie. If the person 48 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: was acutely unwell to the extent that they needed to 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: go on the stretcher, then they would not be transported 50 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: in the chair itself way, they would need to be 51 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: put onto a stretcher, but nevertheless successible ambulance. Andy came 52 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: up with. Another solution is if a person's not too 53 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: unwell and they can get in an access cabin and 54 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: a paramedic can travel with them, there's another possible solution. 55 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: But really what we're talking about here would be the 56 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: situation where the person, for whatever reason, for example, they're 57 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: really very acutely unwell, they have to get on the 58 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: stretcher and their personal mobility device is left where it is. 59 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: There's your problem in the third scenario that leads you 60 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: with two issues. How do you secure it that the 61 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: safety of the personal mobility device. In Mark's case, it's 62 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: a beautiful electric wheelchair and it is around fifty thousand 63 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: dollars as quoted. We need to secure it and then 64 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: potentially we need to transport that to, for example, hospital, 65 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: because once a person arrives in hospital and hopefully they 66 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: recover somewhat, and they're going to need their electric wheelchair 67 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: or their scooter or their personal mobility device, just the 68 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: way that we would need our legs when we recovered 69 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: the next morning. So there's two things there, securing it 70 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: immediately and then transporting it thereafter. 71 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I mean, is there is there a solution? 72 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: What can we do here? 73 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: Well, there is a solution now, there's an immediate solution 74 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: in the Darwin, Palmerston and rural surrounds. And Andy and 75 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: I have spoken yesterday. I've supplied to keep Moving on call. 76 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: We do a twenty four to seven on call service 77 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: for people with disability, the very people who would find 78 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: themselves in this situation. We provide their breakdown service, so 79 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: if their chair breaks down in the middle of the night, 80 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: we will respond and they know that number. So what 81 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: we've done is supplied that to Saint John's amblance and 82 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: I've sent that to Andy this morning. I've briefed my 83 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: on call service department and if it was to happen 84 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: now tonight in Darwin, Parmesan or the rural, then we 85 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: will be called by the Saint John's Ambulance and we 86 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: will respond and will secure the chair, yeah, the personal device, 87 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: and transport it as necessary to hospital or wherever the 88 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: person needs it. We'll do that. We'll do that right now. 89 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: But the real question, Katie, we'll do that now, and 90 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: we don't mind to be honest with you, whether we 91 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: get paid or not. We're going to do that because 92 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, we see this is a problem that needs 93 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: a solution right now. The bigger question, Katie, is who 94 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,679 Speaker 1: should put the bill? Right? Who should put the bill 95 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: to secure the mobility device and or transport it? Yeah, okay, 96 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: I've got an opinion if you want to hear it. 97 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well I wouldn't mind hearing it. I mean who 98 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: should Like if it's like, it's a difficult situation, right 99 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: because you know, obviously you've got people who are in wheelchair, 100 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 2: is that they are then going to need those wheelchairs 101 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: when they either you know, when they get to hospital 102 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: or whatever the situation might be. But then obviously, you 103 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: know we heard from Andy yesterday with some of those 104 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: you know, with some of those specialist vehicles that Saint 105 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: John I've got, they're just simply not able to fit 106 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: them in. So you know, the solution you've come forward 107 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: with is that you can assist in that scenario, which 108 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: is wonderful, but you spot on who would pay for it. 109 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you asked, Katie. This is my opinion, 110 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: so you know it doesn't go any further than literally 111 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: Cameron's opinion is I'm going to give nt government a 112 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: bit of a break here, which you know I've been 113 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: known to hold them to strong account over the years, 114 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: but I'm going to give them a break. I don't 115 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: think I don't think it's their responsibility. Let's face it. 116 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: What happened was that you know, anti government, you know, 117 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: handed over its responsible ability for disability services when it's 118 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: on the bilateral agreement with the federal government and the 119 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: NDIS was formed, right, so they don't They're not funded 120 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: for disability services anymore. They are funded to provide acute 121 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: medical services, including ambulance services, and they've contracted that out 122 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: to Saint John's Ambulance who provide it. And let's say 123 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: that my experience with Saint John's I've done a great 124 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: job of that by and large, So I don't think 125 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: that it is actually the responsibility youre going to look 126 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: at the limited responsibility of an acute ambulance service. I 127 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: don't think it's my opinion that that responsibility rests with 128 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: NT government and hence Saint John's. I think that it 129 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: is actually the responsibility of the disability service provider, which 130 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: is normally the owner of the equipment, which could be 131 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: nd S CEO, could be NT government. Occasionally it could 132 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: be a personal the person may own it themselves, So 133 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: I think that it actually rests with that. I acknowledge 134 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: straight up the bad the clear reason, we empathized with 135 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: the reason why the equipment should be secured and transported, 136 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: and we acknowledge actually the right of that person in 137 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: this community to have those services. But I don't think 138 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: I really do think it's a disability service. I'll give 139 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: him example where I'm going to I'll give a bravo 140 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: right now to NT government. I won't name him, but 141 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: the head of Allied Health Services at rule Down Hospital, 142 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: in this unusual case, it was actually owned and funded 143 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: by Northern Territory Government. They don't own as much equipment 144 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: as they used to since the Indies, but this electric wheelchair. 145 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,719 Speaker 1: The guy was at Casarina. He needed to be transported 146 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: or all down in an ambulance. His mobility equipment was 147 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: left behind. They rang the number, went through to Allied 148 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: Health at the hospital after ours. They called him after ours, 149 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: he called me. I said, yes, I'll respond. We picked 150 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: it up, secured it transported to Rule Darwin. The doctors 151 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: were delighted. They said, I'm glad that you've bought this 152 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: electric wheelchair for this patient. And anti government paid the bill. 153 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: They paid the bill for us to do that. So 154 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: there's an example where it went well, I think, Katie. 155 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: The issue here really you look at the risk matrix 156 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: of this situation arising. It's actually it's actually it's low 157 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: probability that this will happen. But when it does happen 158 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: for the person involved, like Mark's example, is the actual 159 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: consequences are very high. So when you risk matrix something 160 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: with a low probability but high outcomes, you can't ignore it. 161 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: You've got to do something about it. And the issue here, 162 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: to be honest, is people just haven't thought about it. 163 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: So bravo to Mark leg Shannik for bringing it up 164 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: on your show, and bravo to you forgiving it the airtime, 165 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: and that when they're having these discussions, I'm quite sure 166 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: that we will come up with a solution between Saint 167 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: John's amblance, the various funding bodies and put it to 168 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: NDIS already is what they don't have a line item 169 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: in their funding that's said as secure and transport mobility 170 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: device in the case of an ambulance. You know, they 171 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: don't have that because they didn't think of it, well, Katie, 172 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: thanks to you guys. And now they're going to think. 173 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: Of it well thanks to Mark. You know. And the 174 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: thing that he'd said to me on the show last 175 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: week that really struck a chord was he was like, Katie, 176 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 2: I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm just asking to 177 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: be treated fairly. And he said he was speaking up 178 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: because he also felt that, you know, other people in 179 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: a similar situation may not have the voice or may 180 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: not have the ability to do so. So, you know, 181 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,479 Speaker 2: big hats off to him for raising the issue and 182 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: and you know, for you coming up with a solution 183 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: can because I think what you've said there is so 184 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: true that you know it's it's probably not something that's 185 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: happening all the time, or it's probably not something that 186 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 2: you know, that's that's going to even happen every week. 187 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 2: It may be something that only happens very occasionally. But 188 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 2: it's really important that on those occasional situations that were 189 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: a to come up with a solution for people. 190 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Katie, you know. 191 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: And yeah, and like I say, a big thanks to you, Cam, 192 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,599 Speaker 2: but a really big thanks, I think to Mark mcshanneg 193 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 2: for raising the issue. It's not easy to come up 194 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: on the radio and speak really openly about you know, 195 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 2: about concerns and about issues that you've got, so I 196 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,439 Speaker 2: think it was brave of him to do so, and 197 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: you know, a really good thing to do. 198 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I'm pretty sure he's listening. He did 199 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: tell me that he was going to tune in at eleven. 200 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: Good Mark, Well Cam, thank you mate. That sounds like 201 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 2: it is. It's going to be a good solution. But 202 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: as you said, you know, we've got to work out 203 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: who's going to foot the bill. It does sound as 204 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 2: though there'll have to be some further discussions on that, 205 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: so please let us know if you hear anything more, 206 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: and we'll do our best to make sure that our 207 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: listeners are aware of the outcome for sure. 208 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: Katie, Andy and I are meeting next week. We've got 209 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: a solution, but we still need to look at the 210 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: major centers and Creek Catherine and Go than Alice Springs 211 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: and of course remote communities. Everything becomes a lot more 212 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: difficult as you move out into those remote communities. So 213 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: we haven't fixed it completely, but we started with a 214 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: solution in Darwin and we'll work on it. We'll keep 215 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: you posted, Katie. 216 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, please do Cam, Thank you and mate. Every time 217 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: you contact us at the show. You've always got a solution, 218 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: so you are a can do man. I like that. 219 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: Ah. Thanks Katie, You're good on you. 220 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: Cam. Thanks so much for your time this morning. I 221 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: really appreciate it. 222 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: You're welcome. Cheers, thank you 223 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 2: Thanks so much.