1
00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,480
Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily Oh, this

2
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:05,120
Speaker 1: is the Daily OS.

3
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,840
Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense.

4
00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,520
Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

5
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:18,720
Speaker 3: the eighteenth of December.

6
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,599
Speaker 2: I'm Zara Sidler, I'm Emma Gillespie.

7
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,600
Speaker 3: In the wake of the Bondai terror attacks targeting Sydney's

8
00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,840
Speaker 3: Jewish community, a national conversation about anti semitism here in

9
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,199
Speaker 3: Australia has once again come to the fore. A recent

10
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,200
Speaker 3: report by the Special Envoy found that from October twenty

11
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,920
Speaker 3: twenty three to September twenty twenty four, anti Semitic incidents

12
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 3: surged by three hundred and sixteen percent. In today's podcast,

13
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,199
Speaker 3: Sam will speak to Alex Rivkin, the co CEO of

14
00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,440
Speaker 3: the Executive Council of Australian Jury, about the rise of

15
00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,280
Speaker 3: antisemitism in Australia.

16
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,440
Speaker 2: Now, Zara, before we get to Sam's interview, I did

17
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,160
Speaker 2: just think it would be hell to maybe provide some

18
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,480
Speaker 2: quick context on who Alex is and what he's talking about.

19
00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:06,039
Speaker 4: Yeah.

20
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,319
Speaker 3: So, Alex Rivkin, as I said, is the head of

21
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,480
Speaker 3: one of the Jewish community's representative bodies. We'll call it

22
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,120
Speaker 3: the ECAJ for short, and you might recognize his name

23
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,440
Speaker 3: because at the beginning of this year his former home

24
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,160
Speaker 3: was firebombed and tagged with anti Semitic graffiti, and so

25
00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,399
Speaker 3: I guess in that context today he is very well

26
00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,440
Speaker 3: positioned to be talking to us about the rise of

27
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,600
Speaker 3: anti Semitism across Australia, but especially in the wake of

28
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,120
Speaker 3: the terrorist attack that occurred on Sunday. I don't know,

29
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,280
Speaker 3: m that we need to provide much more context. So

30
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 3: let's throw it over to Alex Rifkin.

31
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,800
Speaker 5: Alex, thanks so much for joining us. What's been a

32
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,120
Speaker 5: massive day. Can you talk me through your day today.

33
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,960
Speaker 1: It's hard to do that because time has just changed

34
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,600
Speaker 1: in the way that we kind of experience and evaluate it.

35
00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,600
Speaker 1: I've no idea how long has passed since the musker itself. Yeah,

36
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,919
Speaker 1: and you know this morning I was here doing media

37
00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,520
Speaker 1: with the ABC early on, but the day has been

38
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:12,320
Speaker 1: occupied primarily with the funeral of Rabbi Elishlanger. That's where

39
00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:13,960
Speaker 1: my mind has been, that's where my heart has been.

40
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,639
Speaker 1: It's been a really really difficult day, really difficult day

41
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,720
Speaker 1: for me personally and for the community to actually see

42
00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,160
Speaker 1: him lay to rest, which you know, in Jewish law

43
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 1: is very important that we bury as quickly as possible

44
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,800
Speaker 1: so the soul can ascend and that the morning process

45
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: can begin, which.

46
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 4: Is so important. But it made it all real.

47
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,240
Speaker 1: And to see his wife weeping over the coffin, a broken,

48
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,480
Speaker 1: broken human being, to see his children, to see his

49
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:45,600
Speaker 1: son reciting the Mourner's prayer by his grave, it's just

50
00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,880
Speaker 1: the most heartbreaking stuff and it just brings home what

51
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 1: these people did, what they talk. They took so much

52
00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:56,360
Speaker 1: from us, They gained nothing. All they did was hurt us,

53
00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 1: very very badly, destroy whole worlds, destroy people's lives, bring

54
00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,880
Speaker 1: misery upon us, change the way we live as Jews

55
00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,600
Speaker 1: in this country, for no gain for themselves. So the

56
00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,400
Speaker 1: game that they feel they've received in this transaction is

57
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,000
Speaker 1: our misery, and that seems to be sufficient for them,

58
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,080
Speaker 1: and they will trade their lives and their liberty in

59
00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,079
Speaker 1: order to inflict pain on us, which says something about

60
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:17,680
Speaker 1: the ideology.

61
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:18,640
Speaker 4: It's just incredible.

62
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,840
Speaker 5: On that Today show, you said that they'd won. Do

63
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,600
Speaker 5: you still feel that way twelve hours later, twenty four

64
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:25,120
Speaker 5: hours later?

65
00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in terms of what they sought to achieve,

66
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,480
Speaker 1: they won. They wanted to kill as many Jewish people

67
00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,600
Speaker 1: as they could. They did a pretty good job of it.

68
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,880
Speaker 1: They wanted to change the way that we feel in

69
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,240
Speaker 1: this country, the way we live as Jews in this country,

70
00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,120
Speaker 1: and they've achieved that as well. Terrorism, whether we like

71
00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,080
Speaker 1: to admit it or not, is extremely effective.

72
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 4: It works.

73
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 1: It changes people's psyche, changes their perception of risk, it

74
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,080
Speaker 1: changes their overday activities, it changes government policy, which is

75
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,360
Speaker 1: exactly what it's intended to do.

76
00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:53,280
Speaker 4: All those things.

77
00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,760
Speaker 1: But we know that We've known that from plane hijacking,

78
00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 1: suicide bombings, and we knew that something like this will

79
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,800
Speaker 1: transform country permanently. So they've achieved what they wanted to do.

80
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 1: They wanted our misery, and they have our misery. They

81
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 1: have our tears and anger and anguish. So yeah, I mean,

82
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 1: in the long term, we will prevail. In so far

83
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 1: as our story as Jews will continue, that will never change.

84
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 4: So maybe that's the ultimate victory. Yeah.

85
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 1: But in terms of what I think they set out

86
00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,359
Speaker 1: to do, which is inflict misery on us, they prevail.

87
00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 4: They really did.

88
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,040
Speaker 5: The focus is clearly wideened. I don't think it's fully

89
00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,080
Speaker 5: shifted away from the victims. We're still learning the names

90
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 5: and victims, but the focus has certainly widened. To be

91
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,360
Speaker 5: more diagnostic in US trying to evaluate what led to

92
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,080
Speaker 5: what happened on Sunday here. Do you think Australia has

93
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:42,719
Speaker 5: an anti Semitism problem?

94
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's had an a Semitism problem for two years

95
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:51,440
Speaker 1: at least, even before October seven and the domestic implications

96
00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,480
Speaker 1: of it. We were documenting forty percent increase in antisemitism

97
00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 1: and we're concerned about rises in filight activity near arts,

98
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,040
Speaker 1: the organizing on the lines of what was happening in

99
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,720
Speaker 1: the US and Europe as well. Going back to twenty

100
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,240
Speaker 1: eleven twenty twelve, we had hundreds of people living in

101
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,440
Speaker 1: this city willfully signing up to fight with ISIS and

102
00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,599
Speaker 1: Syrian or ARC. And of course for everyone that went,

103
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:17,920
Speaker 1: there must have been a dozen or one hundred we

104
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,480
Speaker 1: shared the ideology who remained.

105
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 4: So we knew there was a problem.

106
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,919
Speaker 1: And even then we were talking about the need for

107
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,680
Speaker 1: greater engagement between Jews and on Jews, better education to

108
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,719
Speaker 1: minimize the appeal of antisemity, conspiracy theories. That wasn't happening,

109
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,440
Speaker 1: Our meetings weren't even being taken with the Department of

110
00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,480
Speaker 1: Education at that time. October seven happened, and suddenly they

111
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 1: took our meetings, but still the response from government was

112
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:46,240
Speaker 1: always too slack, too slow, too convoluted, too morally kind

113
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: of equivocal, and that has created this kind of momentum

114
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,480
Speaker 1: fantas semitism in this country. And when extremist actors feel

115
00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,440
Speaker 1: like they're gaining the ascendency and that their behavior has

116
00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,200
Speaker 1: been tolerated and even gaining favor, they go further and further,

117
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:00,240
Speaker 1: deeper and deeper.

118
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 4: And that's what we've seen for two years.

119
00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,200
Speaker 5: You've taken us back there fifteen years and you've talked

120
00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,120
Speaker 5: us through the rise in anti semitism in Australia. Since then,

121
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 5: we've had governments from both sides of the aisle. Do

122
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 5: you think that there has been an Australian specific anti

123
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,560
Speaker 5: semitism problem or do you put us in the category

124
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,800
Speaker 5: of other Western nations, And in fact there's been a

125
00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,360
Speaker 5: Western anti semitism problem.

126
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,160
Speaker 1: I mean it's peculiarly in the sense that Australia was

127
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 1: always behind the rest of the Western world in terms

128
00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,640
Speaker 1: of the gravity and the scale of anti semitism, but

129
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 1: October seven accelerated things in a really unpredictable sort of way,

130
00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,880
Speaker 1: a predicted way, right in terms of you know, if

131
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 1: you were to draw curves of where we went compared

132
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,000
Speaker 1: with the Western world, right there were maybe at a

133
00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,039
Speaker 1: higher baseline, but we have just soared. And this was evident,

134
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,040
Speaker 1: you know, for my meetings with Jewish theaters from around

135
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,600
Speaker 1: the world, where they were expressing absolute concern for what

136
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,480
Speaker 1: for our situation, and it was clear to me that

137
00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,760
Speaker 1: we had experienced and this is part of this massacre,

138
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,480
Speaker 1: the sharpest the time and physical security.

139
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,800
Speaker 4: Of any Jewish committee anywhere in the world.

140
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:04,800
Speaker 1: If you look at where we were and how we

141
00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 1: lived compared with what has happened last few years, Iranian

142
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:14,240
Speaker 1: orchestrated plots targeting businesses and people's homes, Boycott's exclusion, harassment,

143
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:15,880
Speaker 1: the Sphinx matter on the streets.

144
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 5: What is that, Alex? What is that about Australia? I

145
00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,360
Speaker 5: think this is the question that a lot of young

146
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,480
Speaker 5: people are asking this week. Is I mean, you know

147
00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 5: a lot of our audience were teenagers or young children

148
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,400
Speaker 5: in the kind of early twenty tens that you're speaking of.

149
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,640
Speaker 5: They are coming into adulthood. They're trying to work out

150
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,160
Speaker 5: what is it about the Australian psyche, the Australian socio

151
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,800
Speaker 5: fabric that has brought all of this to the forefront.

152
00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,200
Speaker 5: I know that's a hard question to answer, but what

153
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,440
Speaker 5: are your thoughts on kind of what makes us different?

154
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I don't think Australians have a particular susceptibility

155
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,880
Speaker 1: to anti Semitism. On the contrary, we have no great

156
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,080
Speaker 1: cultural history of our form of patriot but it can

157
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 1: take hold in any society and when whever you have

158
00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 1: social upheaval, economic downturn, wars, these sorts of things. And

159
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,800
Speaker 1: we went through a COVID pandemic which shut people in,

160
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,680
Speaker 1: made them more paranoid, made them more willing to listen

161
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,160
Speaker 1: to crazy conspiracy theories. You look at like the anti

162
00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 1: Vatsing concept, you know, which went from being a tiny

163
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 1: fringe movement to being much bigger. Even the voice the

164
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,280
Speaker 1: Voice for Parlman, you had neo Nazi saying that it

165
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 1: was a Jewish plot. So anti Semites are always prevalent

166
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 1: in society. Yeah, They're not a lot of people necessarily,

167
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,600
Speaker 1: and when everything is good, they have little ability to

168
00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: influence the mainstream, but they're there, and then when something happens,

169
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,200
Speaker 1: when there's a spark, they're able to manipulate the masses.

170
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 1: And say your problems of society, the problems in your life,

171
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 1: your inability to find work, your inability to find happiness

172
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,320
Speaker 1: and peace and spirituality, our economic woes, the wars, it

173
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,440
Speaker 1: is the fault of the jew And some people want

174
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 1: to find an easy solution that explains everything, all of

175
00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,800
Speaker 1: the imponderables of the world and of life, and.

176
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,720
Speaker 4: Presents it so neatly and clearly to them.

177
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,800
Speaker 1: And the Jews have always been a great target for

178
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,800
Speaker 1: that because there are all these conspiracy theories that have

179
00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,959
Speaker 1: been developed for thousands of years about us being all

180
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 1: powerful and controlling and blood thirsty. So when people started

181
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,040
Speaker 1: advancing those theories about the Jews, it accords with what

182
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 1: people already suspected or what maybe sat latently in the subconscious.

183
00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 1: That's why it's been so effective. But when October sven happens,

184
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,480
Speaker 1: it causes this kind of national examination of the Jewish question,

185
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,080
Speaker 1: the Jewish lobby as it were, and the role of

186
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,319
Speaker 1: Jews in Australian society. And because so many people don't

187
00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,400
Speaker 1: know Jews personally, don't know who we are, aren't familiar

188
00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 1: with us as people as individuals, they're susceptible to being

189
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 1: influenced by the propagandas by the lives and the conspiracy theories.

190
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,240
Speaker 5: A final question from me, Alex, because I really value

191
00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 5: your time at such a busy period. My wife and

192
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,680
Speaker 5: I were down here on Sunday night. We got taken

193
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,400
Speaker 5: into a building across the road and taking to the

194
00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,280
Speaker 5: second floor where there was a balcony. We sat on

195
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,560
Speaker 5: that balcony four hours, out of harm's way, watching everything

196
00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,480
Speaker 5: go down. And in four hours I saw one person

197
00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,079
Speaker 5: not running away from the site, but actually running towards

198
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:10,240
Speaker 5: the site. And that was you.

199
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:13,360
Speaker 4: Oh, and I.

200
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,040
Speaker 5: Want to ask you. I mean, you were an established

201
00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,800
Speaker 5: community leader before Sunday night. I see this image of

202
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 5: you running towards it. What was the emotional driver in

203
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 5: quite literally physically. But I think over the last few

204
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,840
Speaker 5: days we've seen it going towards this source of pain

205
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,360
Speaker 5: and discomfort and hard conversations rather than moving away from it.

206
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 4: I mean, it's my community, it's my family.

207
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 1: And when we talk about the Jewish community being close

208
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,800
Speaker 1: knit and small, you know, we're fifty thousand people in

209
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:48,199
Speaker 1: the state.

210
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,640
Speaker 4: But this is a subset of that community.

211
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,520
Speaker 1: This is the Russian speaking Jewish community, which I've been

212
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,199
Speaker 1: involved in since I migrated to this country at age four.

213
00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,320
Speaker 1: I know these people. The Rabbi that was slaughtered was

214
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,560
Speaker 1: one of my dearest and closest friends and so and

215
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 1: I was supposed to be at that event. I've been

216
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,439
Speaker 1: at that event every year for the last twenty years.

217
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,240
Speaker 1: I've spoken out of probably for the last ten years,

218
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 1: stood right next to Rabbi Schlanger on the podium with

219
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 1: my children next to me, usually wearing this ridiculous Hunuka jumper,

220
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,400
Speaker 1: which would have made me a brilliant target on the day.

221
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,520
Speaker 1: And I had to be there. I didn't know what

222
00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,840
Speaker 1: I could do. I'm not a medic. I couldn't have

223
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,240
Speaker 1: offered them any worthwhile assistants. I would have gone in

224
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,560
Speaker 1: the way, but I had to physically be there. There

225
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,320
Speaker 1: was nowhere else I could be. But you know, thank

226
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 1: you for noticing and noting that. But mine wasn't heroism.

227
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,240
Speaker 1: I mean the heroism came from people like Ruben Morrison

228
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,040
Speaker 1: who saw a gunman and threw a brick at him

229
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,920
Speaker 1: and paid with his life he was gone down. Or

230
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,320
Speaker 1: the middle aged couple who saw them on the street

231
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,800
Speaker 1: and engaged them and paid with their lives. The people

232
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 1: who sheltered children. These are the true heroes, the absolute heroes.

233
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 5: So how do you think we can thank them?

234
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,280
Speaker 1: I mean, some of them aren't here to thank anymore,

235
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 1: and they made what we call the ultimate sacrifice. But

236
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 1: you know, we have to live how I guess they

237
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,920
Speaker 1: would have wanted us to live, and with people like

238
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,480
Speaker 1: Elie Schlanger, it's so crystal clear because their values were

239
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:19,520
Speaker 1: so clear about doing good, being kind, being proudly Jewish,

240
00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,840
Speaker 1: not hiding away. So I think we have to try

241
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 1: to live that sort of life. But I think we

242
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,400
Speaker 1: also have to be honest with ourselves.

243
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:27,120
Speaker 4: And if we think that.

244
00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,160
Speaker 1: Through righteous living and comming together we can somehow replace

245
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,199
Speaker 1: what was lost, we're kidding ourselves. Those savages took something

246
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,480
Speaker 1: that we will never get back. They took a way

247
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,760
Speaker 1: of life. They took human beings who we will miss

248
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,920
Speaker 1: and we will be without for the rest of our lives.

249
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:44,839
Speaker 4: And that's the reality of things.

250
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,000
Speaker 1: But we have to move on as human beings and

251
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,840
Speaker 1: try to rebuild and find a new way to live.

252
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,000
Speaker 4: It's not going to be easy.

253
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,520
Speaker 5: Ali Rifican, thanks for joining us.

254
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,400
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Sam. I appreciate it, thank you,

255
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:55,920
Speaker 4: thank you.

256
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:56,120
Speaker 3: Thank you.

257
00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,439
Speaker 2: That's all we've got for you. For today's deep dive.

258
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,520
Speaker 2: A huge thanks to Alex Rufkin for talking to us

259
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,200
Speaker 2: and thank you to Sam for that thoughtful interview. Before

260
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,080
Speaker 2: we finish up, though, I did just want to read

261
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,800
Speaker 2: out some helplines if you need support. New South Wales

262
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,840
Speaker 2: Health has a dedicated mental health line available twenty four

263
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,920
Speaker 2: seven on one eight hundred zero double one five double one,

264
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,880
Speaker 2: or you can reach out to Lifeline for twenty four

265
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,840
Speaker 2: to seven crisis support on thirteen eleven fourteen. Look After

266
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:28,320
Speaker 2: Yourself