1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast. Hello, my name is 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: doctor Justin Coulson. It's so good of you to join 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: me for today's conversation. This is one that I've been 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: so excited about for a long long time. Today's guest 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: has been linked to one of the most famous psychological 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: experiments ever done. Certainly in the last several decades, this 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: has become an absolute classic. I'll tell you more about 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: it in just a sec, but let me introduce my guest. 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Ethan Cross is a professor in the psychology department 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: at the well look, I'll just say, at the prestigious 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: Ross School of Business at the University of Michigan. Ethan 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: specializes in the study of self control, and he was 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: mentored in graduate school by Walter Mitchell, who famously studied 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: delayed gratification with what's become known as the marsh Mellow experiment. 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: Ethan runs the University of Michigan Emotion and Self Control Laboratory, 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: and he's won a number of awards over the course 17 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: of his career, as well as being featured in publications 18 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The 19 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: New Yorker, and USA Today. And I began by asking 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: Ethan about his work and his family life. 21 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: Well, so, I run a lab called the University of 22 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: Michigan Emotion and Self Control Laboratory, And basically, we do 23 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: lots of experiments to try to figure out how self 24 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 2: control works in children and adults. And when I use 25 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 2: the term self control, I mean how can people align 26 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors with their goals? So it's 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: really broad. It's really like, if you want to act, 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,279 Speaker 2: or think or feel a particular way in this world, 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: how can you do that? What are the psychological tools 30 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: that allow you to fulfill those goals? And so that 31 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: takes us down a lot of exciting paths that I'm 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: sure we'll talk about today. And when I'm not working 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: in a lab with my students and colleagues, I'm both 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 2: working and relaxing at home. They have a lot of 35 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: work at home too. I've got I'm married to a 36 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: woman named Lara, and I've got two daughters, May and Danny, 37 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: age eleven and six, who are a lot of fun 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: and the inspiration for lots of self control experiments. 39 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet do you ever experiment on them? Have 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: you done the marshmallow experiment with your two daughters. 41 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 2: I have, in fact, a funny story about the marshmallow 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: experiment with my oldest daughter Maya. So my advisor in 43 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: graduate school is actually the marshmallow Man, Walter Michelle. 44 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: Now before you tell me about Maya for people who 45 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: are not familiar with Walter Michelle and the marshmallow experiment, 46 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: because that was going to be my next question. Anyway, Okay, 47 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: when I Cyber was talking, I was like, no way. 48 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: Ethan Cross was supervised by one of the one of 49 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: the modern legends of psychology. He did this marshmallow experiment 50 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: that so many people have heard of and even have 51 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: seen an a recent resurg and solve it on TikTok 52 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: in the last few months through the isolation stage. What 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: did he do? And then what did you do with 54 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: Maya as a result of that? 55 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 2: Sure, So the marshmallow test, in a nutshell is it's 56 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: a paradigm for studying self control in the lab under 57 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: control conditions. And what you do is you bring a 58 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: kid into the lab and then you give them a choice. 59 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: You say you can have one treat now or and 60 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: we call it the marshmallow test, but in fact we 61 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: use whatever treats the kids like so for some kids 62 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: it's raisins, other kids it's pretzels. 63 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: And you show me one child that's going to pick 64 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: a raisin over a marshmallow. 65 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: Really, there are some we could talk about the question 66 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: marks that's surround their match. Or I'm just joking. Some 67 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: kids like fruit go figure. So you give them a 68 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: choice one marshmallow now or if you wait until I 69 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: come back. I have to leave the room for a 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: little bit. But if you can just sit tight and wait, 71 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 2: then you can have two mars. But the only way 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: you can have two is if you wait until I 73 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: come back. And the experimenter doesn't tell the child how 74 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: long it's going to take for them to come back. 75 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 2: So there's uncertainty, which we know everyone who's living through 76 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: COVID nineteen right now. Uncertainty can drive emotional responses. And 77 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: so this for children is a really difficult choice, right 78 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: because all the kids, like Walter and the experimenters are 79 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 2: running these studies. They make sure that everyone wants the 80 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: two marshmallows. 81 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: And then normally only around age four, maybe five or 82 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: six at the monster. So it's not like self regulation 83 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: and self control, which is what we're talking about and 84 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: teaching these two kids, It's not like this is intrinsic 85 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: to them. At this point. Self control is hard. They 86 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: go from zero to one hundred emotionally in seconds, don't they? 87 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 2: Some kids do and other kids don't. And so that's 88 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: part of that's one of the really interesting findings surrounding 89 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: this line of work. So you look at so everyone 90 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: wants the two marshmallows, but they have this dilemma looking 91 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: at this delectable treat, right, they're drooling over it, So 92 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: what do they do? So it turns out in one 93 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 2: line of studies they find that the kids who were 94 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: able to wait longer, their delay of gratification ability predicts 95 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: lots of important life outcomes later on in life, so 96 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: how well they do in school, how adjusted they are, 97 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 2: and their relationships and their health. And the idea is 98 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: that what this task is tapping into is this basic competency, 99 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: this ability to manage our emotions. The other thing that 100 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: this line of research tells us, though, is what Walter 101 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: did lots of experiments to figure out, well, how can 102 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 2: you direct kids to think differently about the about what 103 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: they're waiting for the two marshmallows versus one? What are 104 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: the different psychological tricks that you can use, so to speak, 105 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: to manage your emotions effectively. And so they did lots 106 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: of experiments and found developed lots of insights that informed us, 107 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: now many decades later, about what are the tools that 108 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: people possess that we can use to control ourselves. So 109 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: that's the marshmallow test in a nutshell, and the quick 110 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 2: to bring it back to my family, the fun anecdote is, I, 111 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 2: of course have been waiting like a decade since I 112 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: started working with Walter, to have a kid who I 113 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: could do this task with. And so I dutifully set 114 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: up the task and all the parameters and make sure 115 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: I'm doing it by the book, and then give I 116 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: sit my down and I describe it and I say okay, 117 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: and before I leave, she goes, Daddy, I want one 118 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 2: marshmallow now and I want both later. And so it's 119 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: a clear violation of a protocol. And so because I 120 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 2: know Walter or I passed away recently but I knew him, 121 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: I picked up the phone and I called Walter and 122 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 2: I said, Walter, you know, have you ever heard of 123 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: a child doing this? And all the years that you've 124 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: been doing this research And he pauses, and very sternly 125 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: he says, Ethan, it's not too soon to start therapy 126 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 2: as an indicator of what the of course was joking, 127 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 2: but the message was delivered well. 128 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: And so you're going to have a long, long, hard 129 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: life with the negotiator. That's what That's what he's really saying. 130 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: Get ready, buckle in that basically that's right. So and 131 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: you know, we maybe we'll get into it later. Maya 132 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: has proven to be quite adept at negotiations in the 133 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: six years since we've done that task. 134 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: So now, now, before I asked the next question, I 135 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: think it's really important to highlight that as a as 136 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: a parenting expert or as a psychology researcher, my suggestion 137 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: is you probably wouldn't be encouraging parents to do the 138 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: marshmallow test at home with their children as a diagnostics 139 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: tool to determine how self controlled they'll be throughout their life. 140 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: Their destiny is not in their decision around. 141 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: Marshmallow, absolutely not. 142 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a fun experiment. 143 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 2: It's fun experiment, and you know the way that the 144 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: context in which I used it with my kids was 145 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: to introduce them to a scientific experiment and then to 146 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: talk about what we've learned. And one of the things 147 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: that we've learned, which often gets lost in the translation 148 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: of this work when when people talk about it with 149 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: the world, is that one of the things we know 150 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: is that you can change your self control. You know, 151 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: one of my pet peeves is when I hear people 152 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 2: saying you have no self control. That's absolutely not true. 153 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: Everyone possesses self control to some extent. Some of us 154 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: are better at exerting it in some context as opposed 155 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: to others. I may be really good at exerting self 156 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: control regulating myself when I'm working on a problem at work, 157 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: but maybe I have a little bit more difficulties when 158 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: I'm coaching soccer. That's not true. I'm pretty good there too. 159 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 2: But I have my I have my weaknesses. They're associated 160 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: with the with the pantry post ten pm at night, 161 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 2: when I crave some foods. We all have our Achilles 162 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: heel when it comes to self control. But what we 163 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: know is that there are different tools we can use 164 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: to improve our self control. And these these these different 165 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 2: things we can do, they're teachable, they're strategies are often 166 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: easy to implement, and so I talk to my kids 167 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: about the different ways that they can manage the temptation 168 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: when it exists, and so absolutely not. You wouldn't want 169 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: people to think that scores on that test for their 170 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: destiny by any means. 171 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've done at home with my kids as well, 172 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: purely to have the conversation about self control and how 173 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: it works. In fact, you've taken me exactly to where 174 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to go next, and that was just to 175 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: talk about how we can teach our children's self control. 176 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: And what I'm especially interested in is how does it 177 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: affect children who are not developing along the typical pathways. 178 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: You know, kids that have got ADHD, kids that have 179 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: got autism. What can your self control research teach us 180 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: in terms of helping those more narrow, rigid thinking children 181 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: to manage themselves. 182 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: Well, one disclaimer is we haven't looked at several of 183 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: those populations, and there's always this tension between wanting to 184 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 2: generalize from the studies we've done as far as we 185 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 2: can and without having looked at ADHD and autism in particular, 186 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 2: it's hard to make that leap because we're dealing with, 187 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: in some cases, very different kinds of populations with their 188 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 2: own unique characteristics. Now, what we do know. We can 189 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: say something though about about populations of children who experience 190 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: difficulty regulating themselves in general, so not clinical populations, but 191 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: groups that are just more impulsive, more prone to anger, 192 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 2: more prone to experiencing temptation. By and large, what we 193 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: see is that the more intense the emotional response, the 194 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 2: more effective the different self controls tend to be. So, 195 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: and the idea there is, look, if you're dealing with 196 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: a little bit of emotion, there's not a whole lot 197 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: of room for these tools to help you feel better 198 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 2: or help you rein it in. But as the amplitude 199 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: of the emotions go up, the more intense it is, 200 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: the more room there is to help bring you down. 201 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: And so in some of those that man affects studies, 202 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: for example, we've seen that the kids who benefit the 203 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: most from that technique are the ones who have the 204 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 2: most difficulty regulating themselves in general, they're the ones who 205 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: are benefiting. And so there are lots of open questions 206 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: about whether that'll extend to autistic and other populations, but 207 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: we do have some inklings that it might. So there 208 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: are a boatload of different strategies that people can use 209 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: to exert self control both children and adults, and to 210 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: be concrete about what I mean by that. We know, 211 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 2: for example, that when people are tempted to act in 212 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 2: particular ways, or when they're trying to control their emotions, 213 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: diverting their attention can be really powerful right as a 214 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: short term fix. So you might want to have a 215 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: person if something is bothering us or tempting us, let's 216 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,359 Speaker 2: focus on something else. And for young children in particular, 217 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: diverting attention can be a powerful tool if they're looking 218 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: at a treat. For example, in the marshmallow studies, one 219 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: of the best ways to get kids to wait longer 220 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: was to put a little box on top of the 221 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: marshmallow so the kids couldn't see it, or to have 222 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: the child think about other things, think fun thoughts about 223 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: being on the playground with mommy pushing me on the swing. 224 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 2: So diverting our attention away from a thing that's tempting 225 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: or bothering us can be one kind of tool. Another 226 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: kind of tool deals with the ability of the mind 227 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: to change the way we think about things. So we 228 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: did a study several years ago. It was a brain 229 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: imaging experiment in which we were trying to look at 230 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: how people can reduce craving responses to things like pizza 231 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 2: or drugs. Right, we see these temptations, we desperately want them. 232 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: And so in one condition, we've had people just look 233 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: it up an image of a delicious looking piece of pizza, 234 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: and in another condition we had them imagine that a 235 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: cockerroach had just crawled across the pizzas. And so that's 236 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: just an exam of the power of the mind to 237 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 2: transform the way we think about things, and how we 238 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: change the way we think can change the way we feel. 239 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: That is the basis of cognitive therapy and cognitive interventions 240 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: to change our mood. 241 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 1: So, in a nutshell, what we want to do without 242 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: our children is we want to either divert their attention 243 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: so they're not even thinking about it, or make it invisible, 244 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: like literally pick it up and move it, or pick 245 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: your child up and move your child. And this will 246 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: obviously work a lot easier with younger children, but you 247 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: can still make stuff invisible. They usually look at your 248 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: own wing and say, oh, I can't believe you're taking 249 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: that away, But technically that's not self control, that's parent control. Nevertheless, 250 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: it will reduce the challenge that you're facing. 251 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: Well, I think the way you're describing it right is 252 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 2: the parent is being the agent of control, right right, 253 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: This parent control. But what we also can do, and 254 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: one of the things we're exploring now is teaching kids 255 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: to do this on their own. And so one of 256 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: the strike if you look back at some of those 257 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: early marshmallow studies, what you see is that some kids 258 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: spontaneously do this. Some kids closed there. You can't see 259 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 2: me now, your listeners can't see me, but I'm mimicking 260 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 2: what they do. Some kids put their hand over their eyes. 261 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: One girl had really long hair and she flipped it 262 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 2: so she couldn't see the marshmallow in front of her. 263 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: Another kid told himself a story, an elaborate story with 264 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: imaginary friends. And so these are all different tools that 265 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: kids are doing on their own. And so as parents, 266 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 2: we possess the ability to essentially give kids the tools 267 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: by distracting them or prompting them to think different. 268 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: Hey, that person's bothering you at the schoolyard. But let's 269 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: look at the big picture, Maya or Danny. You know what, 270 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: they've lots of friends. You don't have to talk with 271 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 3: that person. So we could shift their perspective. But what 272 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 3: we can also do is we can teach children to 273 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 3: do this on their own. 274 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: If you would rattal off, let's say three self control tips, 275 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: the top three that come to mind for children who 276 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 1: was somewhere around four, five, six, seven years of age, 277 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, those elementary schools, those early primary school years. 278 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: What kind of tips would you give parents if they 279 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: want to help their kids to develop the self control 280 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: to not eat the marshmallow or the pretzel or the raisin. 281 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: Right where did they go? 282 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: Well? I think one is attention. So teaching them how 283 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: to divert their attention away from whatever's tempting them and 284 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: give themselves something to focus on is even more powerful. 285 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: So really get them to focus in on something that's 286 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: equally engaging, but not the thing that's tempting them. So, 287 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 2: if you don't want them to watch TV, give them 288 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 2: a really fun buzzle to work on or something like that, 289 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 2: or problem to work on. Another thing is changing the 290 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: way they think about something. So if they're looking at 291 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: the candy and they really want to eat it, ask 292 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: them to imagine, well, you know, imagine that. I guess 293 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 2: kids aren't tempted by bread. What is it candy basically 294 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 2: mostly right, I mean, imagine that someone stepped on it, 295 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: you know, or those kinds of transformations can be powerful, right, 296 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: So don't think about it as a marshmallow. Think about 297 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: it as a puffy cloud, right, So play with it 298 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: in your head, and importantly when you play with it, 299 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: don't think about the things that are most Oh my god, 300 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to think about how it's going to taste. 301 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: If you've talked to your child about the negative health 302 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: implications of eating too much candy, or negative health implications 303 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: for a child like tummy aches, right, not feeling good after, 304 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: have them think about that, so, you know, think about 305 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: the fact that too many marshmallows can make you not 306 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: so healthy, and that's not a good thing. You have 307 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 2: to go to the doctor, and so forth and so on. 308 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: A third strategy you can use to give you the 309 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: last one is you can try something called what we've 310 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 2: called the Batman effect. So have a child pretend find 311 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: their favorite superhero. And as so, superheroes are usually generally 312 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: really good at at exercising restraint, right, and being able 313 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: to do good things in the world. And so in 314 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: some studies, what a colleague of mind Stephanie Carlson has 315 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 2: found is that having children imagine they're superhero, use their name, 316 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 2: Imagine you're Batman, and say what would Batman do right now? 317 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: Would Batman be able to not eat the marshmallow? Or 318 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: Dora the Explorer? What would Dora do? That can be 319 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 2: really powerful transports them into this other role which gives 320 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: them some distance from the temptation and also this superpower 321 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: to restrain it. And so that's been a fun strategy 322 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 2: that kids have been able to benefit from in some experiments. 323 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: I love the Batman effect, and what I really love 324 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: about that piece of research is, well, first of all, 325 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: we're looking at how people who speak to themselves in 326 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: that sort of alter ego way, you know, what would 327 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: Batman do? What would Wonder Woman do? What would the 328 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: bill to do? Versus come on, Ethan, you've got this 329 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: versus I know what I would do? You know, these 330 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: three different conditions, And you found in this study that 331 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: kids person longer. They just they had more motivation, They 332 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: had a greater level of self control and tenacity. So 333 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: I've been talking to adults about that and saying, when 334 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: you're up against something where you don't want to exert 335 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: the kind of control that's necessary, or where you're struggling, 336 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: or you don't want to persevere, or you're ready to 337 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: explode at your children and you just need to regulate 338 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: your emotions. Don't necessarily think about what Batman would do, 339 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: but think about who your inner mental mentor might be. 340 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: You know, think of Ethan Cross or many people, unfortunately 341 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: for me, will say that, I just think about what 342 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: you would do if you or what I would do 343 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: if you were watching me. I know that ancient and 344 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: modern traditions have encouraged that. So there's the Christian tradition 345 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: of wearing the WWJD bracelet what would Jesus do? And 346 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 1: I think that. I mean, that's a kind of a 347 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: self control strategy, really, isn't It's a psychological or self 348 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: distancing strategy. 349 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know this idea of distance. Really what it 350 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: boils down to is that it's almost like giving yourself 351 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 2: a time out in the moment. So it's a stability. 352 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 2: When we experienced strong emotions, they often narrow our attention 353 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: in on exactly what it is that's driving those responses, 354 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 2: and that zooming in can make it really difficult to 355 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: take the broader picture into account. If I am too 356 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: intolerant with my children, how might that affect them long term? 357 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 2: So this ability to just hit stop for a moment 358 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 2: and zoom out can be really powerful, and there's lots 359 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 2: of research which shows that. And in fact, this is 360 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: a project that where we've been working on for the 361 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 2: past five years. It's called the Toolbox Project. For the 362 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 2: past ten years or so, I've been teaching a class 363 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 2: here may a little bit less than ten years called 364 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: the Science of Self Control to University Michigan undergrads, And 365 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 2: it's essentially science's great as hits when it comes to 366 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: what we've learned over the past fifty years about how 367 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 2: to control our emotions, our thoughts, our behaviors. And it's 368 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 2: always a really fun class to teach. The students love 369 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 2: the material, they're engaged. And the way it works is 370 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: every week students come in, they read stuff and I 371 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 2: pepper them with questions, and then the final day we 372 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: reverse the roles. They come in with questions. For me, 373 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: it's their last day. Here's what's on my mind. Now 374 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: that I've gone through the whole literature, I've digested it 375 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: and so forth. And about five years ago, this one 376 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: girl named ariel. She raised her hand like really defiantly 377 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 2: as soon as the class started to wanting to be 378 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 2: called on, and so I called on her, and she says, 379 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 2: why are we learning about this now? I go, well, 380 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: what do you mean? She goes, well, you know, we've 381 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 2: gone over all of these different strategies that exist, dozens 382 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: of strategies that can help us be happier, healthier, get 383 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: better jobs, and so forth. Why did anyone teach us 384 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 2: about this earlier on in life when it could have 385 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: helped us, like when we were kids or adolescents. And 386 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: so the first thing I said was, fear not, life 387 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 2: is not over. You will still have opportunities to use 388 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: these strategies once you leave college. But then I did 389 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 2: something I don't want to say it was, it was 390 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: slightly cowardly. I did what many politicians do when they 391 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 2: don't have a good answer to a question. I deflected 392 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: and I threw it back to the class and I said, well, 393 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: what do other people think? Why why haven't you learned 394 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 2: about this yet? And the reason I did that was 395 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: because I didn't have a good answer to that question. 396 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 2: And so it got me thinking a lot about why 397 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 2: aren't we teaching kids about what we know about how 398 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 2: the mind works when it comes to self control. We 399 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: teach children about how the digestive system works. We teach 400 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 2: them about geometry, we teach them about social studies. These 401 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: are just concepts. These are these are topics that we 402 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 2: think are important, and so they're in the they're in 403 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: the kind of canon of what we expose them to 404 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: in school. Well, the mind seems kind of important and 405 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: we've learned about it, so why aren't we also teaching 406 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: them about this? And so fast forward five years. What 407 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 2: we've been doing is a group of scientists like myself 408 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: have paired up with educational experts curriculum designers to essentially 409 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,239 Speaker 2: take the science of self control, what do we know 410 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: about the different tools that exist, and we've translated that 411 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: into a curriculum for middle and high school kids, so 412 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: a little bit older than the ages that you were 413 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: asking about. But the idea was that this was a 414 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: good place to start, and so we took the science, 415 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: which can be filled with complicated terms that scientists love 416 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: to use, but we've made it simple and with engaging exercises. 417 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: And what we're doing now is we are looking at, well, 418 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 2: what are the implications of teaching children about these strategies. 419 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: In some of our early studies we know we have 420 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 2: dated to show that the kids who go through this curriculum, 421 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: they do in fact learn the material right. So you 422 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,479 Speaker 2: do a test at the beginning and at the end 423 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 2: of the curriculum their knowledge of the science of so 424 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 2: control increases. And what we're getting ready to do with 425 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 2: about ten thousand students next year is we're going to 426 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 2: test to see what effect does learning about these strategies 427 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 2: have on these students' ability to regulate themselves down the 428 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 2: road in life. And the hypothesis the prediction is that 429 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 2: knowing about these strategies should provide these kids with resources 430 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 2: that they could draw upon when they need them, in 431 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: the same way that knowing how to compute a percentage 432 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: allows us to determine the tip when we go to 433 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: a restaurant. The idea is that when a kid is 434 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 2: angry or tempted, if they're motivated to control those urges 435 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 2: or emotions, they should have a knowledge base to fall 436 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: back on in those instances. 437 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: Earlier, you defined self control. I'd like to now define 438 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: emotional regulation. But I'm not sure that there's got to 439 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: be an enormous difference in what you said previously. You know, 440 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: that idea of harnessing your your faculties and characteristics and 441 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: directing them towards a goal effectively was my summary of 442 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: your your definition. Would you would you be switching that 443 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: up at all for emotional regulation? 444 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 2: You know? I don't. And a disclaimer, you know for 445 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: all of all the people listening, is that scientists are 446 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 2: really good at coming up with different terms that differ 447 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 2: in ever so slight ways, and that could be useful 448 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: when we do experiments. But I think the self includes emotions, 449 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: it includes behaviors, and includes thoughts and cognitions, and so 450 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 2: when you're talking about controlling the self, self control, to me, 451 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: it's a whole kitten kaboodle. So I use the broadest 452 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 2: definition of self control. It's aligning thoughts, feelings, and behaviors 453 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: with goals. Now, now that doesn't mean that self control 454 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 2: is always a good thing, because it means that if 455 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 2: you have of bad goals right, the better you are at. 456 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 2: Self control means that you can do bad things right. 457 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 2: So for example, let's say I have the goal of 458 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 2: of of of of committing a crime right, which might 459 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: be very challenging for me to emotionally, it might be 460 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 2: hard to hurt someone else. If I have good self control, 461 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: that might help me do that. So so self control 462 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: in my world is not always good, right. 463 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: And our kids aren't necessarily planning on committing the any 464 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: any grievous and we hope not. 465 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: No, that's right, And so in all of our studies, 466 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: we're giving them goals that are healthy goals. Of course, 467 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: I think that's in most of cases. That's where self 468 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 2: control is being hardness towards. 469 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated though, by this idea that self control can 470 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: sometimes be a bad thing, and it's not necessarily just 471 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: in pursuit of negative goals. Sometimes that self control can 472 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: also become counterproductive when our children become so rigid and 473 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: so focused, and we as adults as well, we become 474 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: so focused on something that is good and worthy and useful, 475 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: but it's actually going to come at such an extraordinary cost, 476 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: and our life gets out of balance. You know, there's 477 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: all this Angela Duckworth, who I know you've worked with 478 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: her work around being gritty and persevering through tough times. 479 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: Paul Tough wrote a book called How Children Succeed. It 480 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: was all about teaching kids grit, making sure that they 481 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: do the hard yards. And there's obviously a very strong 482 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: argument for having that gritty determination and perseverance, having the 483 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: self controlled, but there's also a pretty strong argument about 484 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: having the wisdom to know when to step back and 485 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: just let go. Can you talk a little bit about 486 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: why self control isn't always the most important thing, or 487 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: isn't always going to be functional and optimal for our 488 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: children or for ourselves. 489 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 2: So many things are interesting about what you said. I mean, 490 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: this idea of wisdom is stepping back, right, There is 491 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: another illustration of the value of distance, disability to step 492 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 2: back and tick, take stock of what you're going through 493 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,479 Speaker 2: and then decide how to behave I think your question 494 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:10,120 Speaker 2: speaks to this issue of that human beings are complicated. 495 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: We are not driven to achieve one goal. We live 496 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 2: in a world filled with multiple goals, right, so goals 497 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: to succeed at work but also to succeed in our 498 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: personal lives. And those goals don't always conflict. As many 499 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: people know who are trudging away at work at eight 500 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 2: pm when they might want to be home with their family, 501 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 2: and so there are trade offs that we are constantly 502 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 2: trying to maintain it take stock of and balance and 503 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 2: so forth, and it gets complicated. So, you know, although 504 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 2: most of our experiments focus on one goal, that's not 505 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: the world in which we live. And I think people 506 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: who are better able to balance all of the different 507 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: goals that are on their plates and manage them accordingly 508 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 2: are more likely to be in a position to be 509 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: living the kind of life they ultimately want. 510 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: Who are these perfect people? Where are they? How do 511 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: we study them? 512 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 2: They're in Australia, of course, of course, So I think 513 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 2: this is you know, this is unfortunately where a lot 514 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: of the science stops right now, because most of the 515 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 2: work we do and thus far has been studying specific 516 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: goals under tightly controlled conditions. And the reason for that 517 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: is it's much harder conceptually and practically to do experiments 518 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: when there are seventeen goals that are all conflicting. So 519 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 2: I wish I could tell you who these people are. 520 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: There are likely exemplars that we could find and then 521 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: try to study in the same way that we Sometimes, 522 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: you know, one approach to science is finding people who 523 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: are really good at something, you know, the Michael Jordans 524 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 2: of their industries, and then trying to figure out what 525 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: makes them tick and then you run experiments on them. 526 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 2: But to my in my mind, we haven't yet done 527 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: that on the exemplars of self control. 528 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: I think that it's a really interesting conversation though, and 529 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: I know we're kind of going off script a little 530 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: bit here, but to me, this idea that some parents 531 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: will take a conversation about self control and say, Okay, 532 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: well I want my child to get into this university 533 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: course or have this opportunity in life, or just you've 534 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: got to learn self control. Because the dun Eden study 535 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: showed the children who learn self control do better at school, 536 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: and they're less likely ended up in prison, and they're 537 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: going to have more successful marriages. You know, this was 538 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: this thirty plus year study of how self control is 539 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: associated with all these positive outcomes. So we've got to 540 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: teach your self control and all of a sudden life 541 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: becomes too controlled. Whether it's pursuing academics or whether it's 542 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: pursuing the extracurricular things like piano or ballet or whatever 543 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: that thing is that our children are doing outside, you know, 544 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: becoming an Olympian swimmer, whatever it might be. 545 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: Well, I think a big part of that equation has 546 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: to do with number one, what you as a parent 547 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 2: and the child the value right because our goals right, Like, 548 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: so what are the goals that we have and which 549 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: are most important to us? There are going to be 550 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 2: people out there who, for them, the most important thing 551 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: is getting into that desired college or getting that job. 552 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: And if that's the case, you can make an argument 553 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: that helping that child fulfill that goal is really important. 554 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 2: But let's say people have multiple goals like that are important. 555 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: I'm not just getting into the best school, but also 556 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 2: having great relationships and enjoying the moment. Well, that would 557 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 2: suggests a different course of action. I mean, look, I 558 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: study this stuff. I'm a presumed expert on this topic, 559 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: and I'd be lying if I told you that my 560 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: wife and I are constantly doing a kind of of 561 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: self and family evaluation of our kids, their goals, our goals, 562 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: and how we can give them the best possibility of 563 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: living a happy life. Like we want them to be 564 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 2: successful more than that, we want them to be happy. 565 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: And you know, I think we are stumbling our way 566 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 2: through like many parents with forward progress. Of course, if 567 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 2: we invite my and Danny on the podcast, they might 568 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: say something different. The first step is being mindful of this. 569 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 2: Simply being aware that life isn't driven much of the 570 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 2: time by one goal, but by many is an important 571 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 2: insight that can be useful for helping parents think about 572 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 2: how they want to structure their kids' activities and lives 573 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: given these multiple goals that they may have for their 574 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 2: kids and that their kids may have for themselves. 575 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: Ethan, I appreciate the vulnerability and you, I guess confessing 576 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: outing up to the fact that you're kind of making 577 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: it up as you go along, even if you've got 578 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: the professorship in psychology, because I feel the same way. 579 00:31:59,640 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 3: You know. 580 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: I've written six books, I've got the PhD in positive psychology, 581 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: I've run a bajillion seminars on this stuff, and there 582 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: are days where I look at my wife and say, 583 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: I don't have a clue how we're supposed to manage it. 584 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: You tell me, and she'll look at me and as hell, 585 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: you're the expert you told me. I'm like, I don't know. Anyway, 586 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: let's move towards a conclusion. There's a couple of other 587 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: questions that I want to ask you before we get 588 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: to my five questions that always wrap up every podcast. 589 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: Something that strikes me as vitally important is that emotions 590 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: are contagious. Kids catch their parents cranky, they catch our chaos, 591 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: they catch our crazy, but they also catch how calm. 592 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: The same strategies that we've discussed for younger children, I'm 593 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: sure that they work for adults as well for parents. 594 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: But I'm curious if there's anything else that you would 595 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: add here. How else can parents stay calm and appropriately regulated? 596 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: What strategies would you share for parents who are just 597 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: over it some afternoons or evenings or mornings. 598 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: I tell you about the strategies that some of the ones, 599 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 2: some of my favorites that I rely on. Because there's 600 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 2: a boltload of strategies there at least a dozen two 601 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 2: dozen out there that have science behind it. We don't 602 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: have time to get into them all, but let me 603 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 2: tell you what I do. One thing I do is 604 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: I will rely on that linguistic distancing. So when I'm 605 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: in the heat of the moment, I'm anxious or I'm angry, 606 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 2: I will use my name silently to think about what 607 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: I'm going through. 608 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: Ethan's ed, why are you talking to yourself in the 609 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: first person? What's going on here? 610 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, definitely you definitely want to do that silently. 611 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 2: That's an important caveat, and that's helpful. Another thing I'll 612 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 2: do is something that we call temporal distancing jargon. Again, 613 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 2: think of it as mental time travel. This can be 614 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: a very powerful tool. I'll imagine about how am I 615 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 2: going to feel about this thing, not right now, but 616 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: a week from now, or a month from now, or 617 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: a year from now as you age. One of the 618 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 2: things I think many people learn is that many times 619 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 2: time does heal. Right. Our emotions go up, but inevitably 620 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 2: they do come down right. Our own personal news cycle 621 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 2: is constantly running, just like it is out there in 622 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 2: the media. New things come in to our lives right, 623 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,959 Speaker 2: and our emotions of side. So I'll remind myself about 624 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 2: the fact that, you know what, I'll probably feel fine 625 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 2: about this argument at work a week later. And then 626 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 2: the last thing I'll do is I'll take a walk 627 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 2: out in nature. There's some gorgeous data showing how simple 628 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: exposures to green space can be remarkably powerful for calming 629 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 2: us down and restoring the psychological resources that we often 630 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 2: need to remain in control. And so that's my trio 631 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 2: of strategies that I rely on Ethan. 632 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: So many questions that I want to ask you, but 633 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: time's going to get the better of this, So I'm 634 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: going to completely switch gears for one final question, and 635 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: this relates to your work that you've done around social 636 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: media and wellbeing. We alluded earlier that we might get 637 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: to this, and I really want to bring this up. 638 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 1: So recently I spoke with Sarah Coyn at Brigham Young 639 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: University had a fascinating conversation with her around what she's 640 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: been discovering in her research to do with the lack 641 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: of control that both parents and children often feel in 642 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 1: relation to their media being consumed. But also she highlighted 643 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: something that Andy Shobulski at Oxford has highlighted, and that 644 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: is that there doesn't seem to be any tremendous wellbeing 645 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: downsides from reasonable amounts of device and technology usage. What 646 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: I'd love to know is what does your research say 647 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: about social media wellbeing and in particularly what does it 648 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: say for young people and how does this all weave 649 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: back into the self control conversation? 650 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 2: Easy question, So this is a you know, I've been 651 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: doing researching this space for about ten years and it's 652 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: been really interesting to see it evolved. It is very 653 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 2: contentious right now. Number one, I think we need to 654 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 2: not talk about social media or digital screen time as 655 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: this monolithic activity, right that's either good or bad. There 656 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 2: are countless ways that people can use social media, and 657 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 2: if you break down different ways of using it, what 658 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 2: you see is just like in everyday life, there are 659 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: helpful versus harmful ways of interacting with other people. The 660 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: same is true of social media, and so a lot 661 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 2: of the things that we do on social media can 662 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 2: be good for us, help build social capital and social connections. 663 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 2: A lot of the things can be totally benign, have 664 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 2: no implications on how we feel, and yet there can 665 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 2: be other ways that we interact with social media that 666 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 2: tank our emotions. For example, think about things like cyber 667 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 2: bullying and trolling, which are really quite significant phenomena that 668 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: have a ton of data behind them. Right The consequences 669 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: of being cyberbullied can be extreme. The kinds of fomo 670 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 2: experiences and envy that we experience when we look at 671 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 2: people's curated lives online. So there are many different ways 672 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 2: that we connect with the technology, and I think you 673 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,399 Speaker 2: can ask questions about well does time on screen lead 674 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: people to feel good? Or bad. And I think Sarah's 675 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 2: right that on the whole that data show well, overall 676 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 2: usage small negative effect on well being, but it's a 677 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 2: really small effect. But if you break things down into 678 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 2: different ways of using the technology, what you find is 679 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: that they're healthy and harmful ways of using it. And 680 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 2: I think the challenge for parents is to figure out 681 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,280 Speaker 2: what those are so that they can teach their kids 682 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 2: how to navigate social media optimally. In the same way 683 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 2: that we spend much of our parenting life teaching our 684 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 2: children how to navigate the offline world optimally, the same 685 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 2: is true, I would argue for social media. 686 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've got the way I talk to parents 687 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: about this is I'll describe three c's. There's connection, there's consumption, 688 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: there's creation when we're online. And my read of it, 689 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: and certainly your conversation just now underscores and reemphasizes this, 690 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: is that when we're using it for consumption or for 691 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: other negative purposes, which is certainly not effective for connection 692 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: or creation, we can actually end up with the strong downside. 693 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: But if we're using it for connection, we're using it 694 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: for creation, we're probably going to have positive experiences online, 695 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: and then it just comes down to regulation. Am I 696 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: able to get off so that I can get enough sleep? 697 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: Am I able to get off so that there's no 698 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: impact on my physical well being? I can still go 699 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: and be a human? It sounds so sensible when you 700 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 1: say it like that, Ethan. 701 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I totally agree. And you know 702 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 2: what I tell people is that, look, social media, it's 703 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 2: a new ecosystem that we interact in. It's a new environment, 704 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 2: and environments aren't good or bad, right, It depends on 705 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 2: how you engage with the envite that determines the implications 706 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 2: it has for your emotional life. And I think if 707 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 2: you look at the evidence, you find evidence to support 708 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 2: that idea as well. 709 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, right, well, thanks so much. Let's move towards 710 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,479 Speaker 1: the conclusion. You've got a book coming out soon. Would 711 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: you like to tell us a bit about that book. 712 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 2: Yes, the book coming out. It's called Chatter, The Voice 713 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 2: in Our Head, Why It Matters and How to Harness It, 714 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,479 Speaker 2: And it's coming out next January, and it talks about 715 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 2: a lot of the work that we've talked about on 716 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 2: this podcast, but goes deeper, namely, why is it that 717 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 2: our ability to think about our lives sometimes can be 718 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 2: an incredible superpower, but at other times, tank our mood 719 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 2: and our relationships, and importantly, what are the tools that 720 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 2: we possessed to master that ability to introspect? 721 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: That sounds amazing. Available for pre order all soon. 722 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 2: It's available for pre order. It's on Amazon and all 723 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 2: of well, it's on Amazon. I don't know about all 724 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 2: the other sites yet because I'm a first time author, 725 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 2: but I know you can find it on Amazon, and yeah, 726 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: pre order is available. 727 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 1: Congratulations, Chatter Chatter. I love the sound of that. It 728 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: sounds brilliant. To wrap up the podcast, I always ask 729 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: five questions of all of my guests. Everyone gets the 730 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: same ones, and they're supposed to be reasonably rapid fire, 731 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: but if you want to expand on any sometimes we 732 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: hear some of our most compelling and delightful stories. So 733 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: question number one Ethan Cross. If we asked your two 734 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: daughters what their favorite thing to do with you is, 735 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: what would they tell. 736 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 2: Us take all time before bed, cooking dinner together, and 737 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 2: traveling to exciting places which don't mean exotic, but exciting beautiful. 738 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: What's been your trickiest parenting moment and don't tell me 739 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: that it was that marshmallow experiment where your daughter wanted 740 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: the bonuses. 741 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 2: Now, my trickiest moment has been seeing my children deal 742 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 2: with emotional hardship that the source of which is out 743 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,919 Speaker 2: of my control, So when other kids are being mean 744 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 2: to them, and just knowing that inevitably there's going to 745 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 2: be more of that in store for them as they 746 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 2: live their lives, and just trying to help them as 747 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 2: I experience their pain, which is not pleasant but probably 748 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 2: a good thing. 749 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's interesting how many people will offer some 750 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: kind of a response along those lines. Watching our children 751 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: struggle seems to be an almost universally agreed upon challenge 752 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: that they no parent wants, and yet every parent knows 753 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: how important that is. It seems to teach them everything 754 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: that they need to know about being a great human. Ongoingly, 755 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,720 Speaker 1: Question number three ethan, if you could spend an hour 756 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: with your two daughters at any age at all, so 757 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: you know tomorrow afternoon they walk in the door and 758 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 1: they're waiting for you in the living room at that age, 759 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: what age would you pick? 760 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 2: And why I would take their current age? And the 761 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,840 Speaker 2: reason for that is I've found every age to equally 762 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 2: awe inspiring and fun and so, and I'm sure that'll continue. 763 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 2: So their current age. 764 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: No matter how wonderful their current age is and how 765 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 1: glad you are to be in the moment, what are 766 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,359 Speaker 1: you looking forward to most as a dad? 767 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 2: Seeing them succeed at whatever they choose to devote themselves to, 768 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 2: seeing them make a mark on the world in some way, 769 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,240 Speaker 2: you know. Seeing my oldest daughter, she recently did community 770 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 2: theater and it was important to her, and I've never 771 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 2: done any kind of theater, but seeing her get up 772 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 2: on the stage and singing dance was just remarkable to 773 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 2: see how she had achieved what was important for her. 774 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 2: And so just watching them both pursue their goals and 775 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 2: hopefully accomplish them, and if not, learning from them and 776 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 2: finding new ones something I look forward to brilliant. 777 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: And the last question, if you could go back to 778 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: Ethan Cross as a very young dad having one of 779 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: those terribly tough moments, with no experience at all as 780 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: a parenting expert, and maybe even without the PhD in 781 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 1: self control and psychology, what advice would you give yourself? 782 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 2: I would to be less hard on myself and to 783 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,319 Speaker 2: likewise remember that incredible mental time travel machine that we 784 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 2: all possess. I think when my kids were young and 785 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 2: parenting was new to me, you can get carried away 786 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 2: with what's happening and not knowing when, when will the 787 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 2: sleepless nights end and so forth, and so just knowing 788 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:37,919 Speaker 2: that things will get better as time goes on would 789 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 2: have been powerful to have a reminder of back then. 790 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 1: Well, Ethan, it's just been an absolute pleasure to talk 791 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: with you. So grateful for your generous sharing and your wisdom. 792 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for being a part of the Parenting in 793 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: Perspective podcast. 794 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 2: Wonderful. Thank you so much. What a fun conversation. So 795 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 2: I hope we can do it again. 796 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: Well, what a fascinating I hope you've gotten some insight 797 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: into Professor Ethan Cross as a result of this podcast. 798 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 1: As I said at the beginning of the podcast, I 799 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,879 Speaker 1: just love the fact that he's linked to this all 800 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,720 Speaker 1: time classic marsh Mellow experiment and the work of Walter Mitchell, 801 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: one of the most important psychologists of the modern era. 802 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,399 Speaker 1: Just a quick reminder as well. I can't emphasize this enough. 803 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: And Ethan also made the point if you're going to 804 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: try that experiment on your own children, their destiny is 805 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: not linked directly to the decision that they make about 806 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: the marsh Mellow. What we want to do is make 807 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,240 Speaker 1: sure that they learn how to self control better, because 808 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: the more self control they have in healthy doses, the 809 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: better it will be in their lives. Okay, if you're 810 00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: enjoying the podcast and you reckon it's worth sharing with 811 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: other people, could you help out and leave us that 812 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: five star review and a comment. Please. The comments and 813 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 1: the reviews and the five star ratings they help other 814 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: people to find out about the podcast and find ways 815 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: that they can be more informed and make their families 816 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 1: happier and more flourishing. The Happy Families podcast is produced 817 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,879 Speaker 1: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Meeting. More information and more 818 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,280 Speaker 1: resources to make your family happier are available at happy 819 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: families dot com dot mm hmm