1
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,120
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

2
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,440
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

3
00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:12,680
Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy

4
00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,600
Speaker 2: Families dot com dot AU. Today on the Happy Families Podcast,

5
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,760
Speaker 2: a conversation about a brand new book that's just been

6
00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:25,640
Speaker 2: published called Technologies Child Digital Media's role in the ages

7
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,480
Speaker 2: and stages of growing up. The author is Katie Davis.

8
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you a bit about Katie, and

9
00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 2: then we're going to have a really important conversation for

10
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,040
Speaker 2: any parent of any child whoever uses technology.

11
00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,040
Speaker 1: Which would be all of them.

12
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,519
Speaker 2: Katie Davis is an associate professor at the University of

13
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,599
Speaker 2: Washington Information School, where she's a founding member and co

14
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,600
Speaker 2: director of the UW Digital Youth Lab. She's also the

15
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,840
Speaker 2: co author of the app Generation, How Today's youth Navigate identity, intimacy,

16
00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 2: imagination in a digital World with one of the all

17
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,400
Speaker 2: time gurus of psychology, a guy who has done more

18
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,520
Speaker 2: about intelligence in psychology than maybe anybody, Howard Gardner, and

19
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 2: writers in the Secret Garden fan Fiction, Youth and New

20
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 2: Forms of Mentoring, which she wrote with Cecilia aragon I.

21
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,000
Speaker 2: Might also mention that The book Technologies Child, which is

22
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:19,759
Speaker 2: the one we're going to be talking about today by

23
00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,679
Speaker 2: Katie Davis, also has some pretty big what's the word like,

24
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,959
Speaker 2: there's some pretty big names behind this book. Adam Grant

25
00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 2: has just named this I Must read in his next

26
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,880
Speaker 2: Big Idea Club And if you get an endorsement from

27
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,560
Speaker 2: Adam Grant. I mean, Katie, did you just about cry

28
00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,959
Speaker 2: when Adam Grant said you need to read this book?

29
00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,959
Speaker 3: I was pretty excited. I have to say. Yes.

30
00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,440
Speaker 2: So you're a mom to one, You've got a little guy.

31
00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,840
Speaker 2: He is six years old.

32
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 3: He is, Yeah, Oliver.

33
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,040
Speaker 2: The first question I have to ask before we even

34
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,280
Speaker 2: talk about your book is how do you go with

35
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,200
Speaker 2: Oliver and technology?

36
00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:57,880
Speaker 1: Six years old?

37
00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,080
Speaker 2: I'm sure that he wants to be I don't know,

38
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,600
Speaker 2: watching cartoons. He wants to play Pokemon or.

39
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:05,240
Speaker 1: Something like is he Pokemon?

40
00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:05,480
Speaker 3: Yes?

41
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,200
Speaker 1: Is he at you all the time to be on

42
00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:07,680
Speaker 1: his screen?

43
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,639
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we go in and out. So sometimes

44
00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,480
Speaker 3: he's really really pushing to get on the screen and

45
00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,639
Speaker 3: watch something. Right now, it is certainly Pokemon. But then

46
00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,080
Speaker 3: other times he's pretty relaxed and more interested in doing

47
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 3: things offline. It's hard to project, really, I think but

48
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,800
Speaker 3: that's what I have learned as a parent, is that

49
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 3: children are often hard to predict.

50
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're They're not quite the same as I

51
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 2: don't know chemicals in a chemistry experiment, are they There's

52
00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:39,560
Speaker 2: no exactly.

53
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: A little bit more random.

54
00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,760
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to dive into some of the things

55
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,720
Speaker 2: that you've written about in this book. I showed you

56
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:47,960
Speaker 2: my copy of your book, which has I was going

57
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 2: to say thousands of pages doggied, but it's not a

58
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,200
Speaker 2: It's only two hundred and fifty pages long, but I've

59
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,320
Speaker 2: doggied almost every single page. Can we just talk about

60
00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,880
Speaker 2: kids under the age of about well, let's start with

61
00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,359
Speaker 2: our toddlers, our infants. In told children under about the

62
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,559
Speaker 2: age of three, when parents are giving their children screens.

63
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,359
Speaker 2: I love how human you are in the book and

64
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,919
Speaker 2: saying sometimes you just have to because like you need

65
00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,160
Speaker 2: a break, And it's okay for the kids to have

66
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,880
Speaker 2: some screens, But what are the risks that we are

67
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,520
Speaker 2: up against with children under the age of three? And

68
00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,840
Speaker 2: they use all of screens, whether it's for TV or

69
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:24,880
Speaker 2: whether they're using apps.

70
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,760
Speaker 3: Right, So, there are a number of things and as

71
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 3: you mentioned, sometimes we need to give us ourselves a break.

72
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 3: So I first want to preface what I'm about to

73
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,960
Speaker 3: say by urging parents to give themselves a break and

74
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 3: not be too hard on themselves, because that's one thing

75
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,640
Speaker 3: that I talk about in this book is that there's

76
00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,000
Speaker 3: just so much guilt and pressure associated with being a

77
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 3: parent these days, and not just related to technology, but

78
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,880
Speaker 3: pretty much every aspect of your child's development. You're expected

79
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 3: to set them up on the road to success. And

80
00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,600
Speaker 3: so I want to just acknowledge that there's a lot

81
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,040
Speaker 3: of pressure. Sure, it's very much there when it comes

82
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 3: to technology, and in fact, I talk about this idea

83
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,080
Speaker 3: in the book that I call the Good Enough Digital Parent,

84
00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,400
Speaker 3: where the idea is that we are trying to do

85
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 3: our best, of course, to steer our children towards positive,

86
00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,839
Speaker 3: developmentally supportive technology experiences. But we're not going to be

87
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,240
Speaker 3: perfect at this all the time, and we're going to

88
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,800
Speaker 3: make mistakes. The key is that we are going to

89
00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,640
Speaker 3: be keen observers of how our children are reacting as

90
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,200
Speaker 3: they're engaging with technology, and also after they've engaged with

91
00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,640
Speaker 3: the technology, and depending on how they act, we will

92
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 3: pivot and adjust accordingly, and you know, try and steer

93
00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,600
Speaker 3: them towards the best possible experiences. But when it comes

94
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:54,400
Speaker 3: to children, the really young children, generally speaking, I would

95
00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 3: say it's fine, you know, occasionally to introduce your child

96
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,120
Speaker 3: to an app that is geared towards little kids, or

97
00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 3: perhaps watching a few TV shows, But the thing to

98
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 3: be on the lookout for is noticing whether or not

99
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:18,040
Speaker 3: you're reaching for the tablet or the phone every single

100
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,040
Speaker 3: time you want to break or every single time your

101
00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 3: child is getting fussy, because if that starts to be

102
00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 3: the default move for you, that's not going to be

103
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,479
Speaker 3: good for your child or for you, because that's not

104
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 3: going to help you support your child in managing their

105
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,880
Speaker 3: own emotions and learning how to regulate themselves. If they

106
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 3: always know that you're going to put a screen in

107
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,359
Speaker 3: front of them to soothe them, they're not going to

108
00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,000
Speaker 3: develop that emotion regulation and the resilience that is so

109
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 3: important during those early years.

110
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,360
Speaker 2: This is a fascinating path that I want to just

111
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,360
Speaker 2: try to few more steps down the relationship between emotion

112
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:08,400
Speaker 2: regulation and behavioral regulation and screen use. So I hear

113
00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,520
Speaker 2: parents say this all the time. When my children are

114
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,680
Speaker 2: in front of a screen, they are so regulated like

115
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,840
Speaker 2: the screen does all of this regulation for them. They're calm,

116
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,040
Speaker 2: they're willing to eat their food, they're willing to get

117
00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,960
Speaker 2: into their school uniforms, they're willing to do almost anything

118
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,960
Speaker 2: that I ask them to do. And yet when we

119
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 2: turn off the screen, it's like they become like hashtag

120
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:29,440
Speaker 2: demon child.

121
00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,159
Speaker 1: They just turn into this psycho child. And I wonder

122
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 1: if you can.

123
00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:38,120
Speaker 2: Talk about that emotional and behavioral regulation issue. And I

124
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,880
Speaker 2: guess this extends well beyond the toddally years. Now, why

125
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,560
Speaker 2: is it the TV is such an extraordinary regulator and

126
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,799
Speaker 2: why does that regulation dissipate so fast once the screen

127
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:49,240
Speaker 2: is off?

128
00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely? So, first of all, it's important to recognize that

129
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,600
Speaker 3: in those early years each one, two, and three, one

130
00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,200
Speaker 3: of the key developmental tasks for kids that age is

131
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,560
Speaker 3: to develop the ability to regulate their emotions, to regulate

132
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,600
Speaker 3: their behavior. In fact, so these constellations of skills that

133
00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,000
Speaker 3: are called executive function, and it's probably the most important

134
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 3: thing that they're developing, aside from language. And so when

135
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 3: we put our kids in front of a TV, if

136
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,280
Speaker 3: we think about what sort of attention and now attention

137
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,800
Speaker 3: is really wrapped up in executive function and self regulation.

138
00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,400
Speaker 3: It's really all about being able to manage your own attention.

139
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,200
Speaker 3: But when you're looking at a screen, the kind of

140
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,400
Speaker 3: attention that you're engaging in is what we call bottom

141
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,880
Speaker 3: up processes of attention. So you're kind of being led

142
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 3: by the TV. You're not really having to do any

143
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,480
Speaker 3: sort of work. So, for your listeners who are thinking

144
00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,400
Speaker 3: about an analogy for their experiences, if you think about

145
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 3: when you're just scrolling through your social media feed, you're

146
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,360
Speaker 3: really not doing doing much of anything. You're not putting

147
00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,600
Speaker 3: a lot of attention in it. You're just letting yourself

148
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 3: be taken from one post to another. However, if you're

149
00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,600
Speaker 3: composing a cover letter for a job or an application

150
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,000
Speaker 3: for something, that's when you're using top down processes of attention.

151
00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,480
Speaker 3: So you're really very much focused and you're controlling your attention.

152
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,400
Speaker 3: You're putting a lot of thought into it. And that's

153
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 3: the kind of attention that doesn't usually get engaged when

154
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,360
Speaker 3: you're watching TV. And so when when you notice that

155
00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,559
Speaker 3: your child is sort of looking like a zombie in

156
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 3: front of the screen, that's because they're not really putting

157
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,680
Speaker 3: much effort into their attention. It's being co opted in

158
00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 3: a way by the TV screen. But that's not to

159
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,000
Speaker 3: say that every single digital experience uses that kind of attention.

160
00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,679
Speaker 3: There are certainly more interactive forms of digital experiences that

161
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,680
Speaker 3: require kids to engage in more of those effortful forms

162
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 3: of attention, those top down processes. So some games, when

163
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,479
Speaker 3: you get into slightly older kids, schemes like Minecraft or Roadblocks,

164
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,839
Speaker 3: those are good examples of the types of digital experiences

165
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,360
Speaker 3: that require a different kind of attention that is more effortful,

166
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,520
Speaker 3: that might be a little bit more supportive of executive

167
00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,480
Speaker 3: function skills.

168
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,080
Speaker 2: Okabe, there are a couple of different tangents that I

169
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:24,559
Speaker 2: want to go on as a result of what you've

170
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,079
Speaker 2: just said here, there's no way I'm going to get

171
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:27,800
Speaker 2: to the list of the bottom of my list of

172
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:33,720
Speaker 2: questions today. You've talked about educational apps. You highlight in

173
00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 2: Technology's Child that for the most part, educational apps are

174
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,599
Speaker 2: not particularly educational. Would you mind just fortunately, yeah, can

175
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,720
Speaker 2: you step through what the data shows us around that

176
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,600
Speaker 2: and the false promises that are made by these app

177
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,120
Speaker 2: developers who are really I guess what are they doing.

178
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,480
Speaker 2: They're trying to capitalize on our best intentions to give

179
00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 2: our children a head start and also give ourselves a break.

180
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,600
Speaker 1: While using a screen. What's the real story behind educational apps?

181
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 3: Well, the first story to keep in mind is that

182
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 3: the vast majority of these apps have zero research behind them.

183
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,559
Speaker 3: So they're making a lot of claims about being educational

184
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 3: without any sort of support or evidence that I would

185
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,080
Speaker 3: as a researcher consider rigorous. And so maybe they've tested

186
00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 3: out with a few kids or families, but not really

187
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,680
Speaker 3: rigorous peer reviewed research. So that's the first thing. Just

188
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 3: beware of the claims that they're making. And then I

189
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,560
Speaker 3: think beyond that, it's really something that parents need to

190
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,320
Speaker 3: try out on a case by case basis, look at

191
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,120
Speaker 3: the app, see how their children are engaging with it,

192
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,239
Speaker 3: and again, what sort of attention is this app encouraging?

193
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,640
Speaker 3: Is it just sort of leading them down one path

194
00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,840
Speaker 3: without really thinking, or is it actually getting them to think. So,

195
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,960
Speaker 3: for young kids, there are a lot of apps that

196
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 3: are focused on literacy development or numeracy development, and some

197
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:13,679
Speaker 3: of those can be quite good, provided they're not including

198
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,559
Speaker 3: all too many bells and whistles. So you have to

199
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,320
Speaker 3: keep in mind that for little kids, they have limited

200
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,839
Speaker 3: information processing abilities, so they're still developing those tools and

201
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 3: the amount of information that's coming at them, if it's

202
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,440
Speaker 3: too much, if there's too many songs, or if there's

203
00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,520
Speaker 3: too many visuals on the screen that might overwhelm their

204
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 3: information processing capacity. So in fact, you want to look

205
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 3: for apps that are pretty minimal and that don't have

206
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,360
Speaker 3: a lot of bells and whistles, that they're not really busy,

207
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,880
Speaker 3: because the busier they are, the more overwhelming it's going

208
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 3: to be for your child, and the more taxing, and

209
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,600
Speaker 3: they're probably less likely to get out of it the

210
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 3: core educational objective. So, whether that's learning to count or

211
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,240
Speaker 3: learning your ABC's, if there's a lot of other characters,

212
00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,920
Speaker 3: you know, getting really excited and all these different things

213
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,119
Speaker 3: going on, that should be a warning sign that maybe

214
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,040
Speaker 3: it's a little too much for your child.

215
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 2: When I look at the apps that my children want

216
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,440
Speaker 2: to play, they tend to not be oriented towards anything

217
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:29,200
Speaker 2: other than time wasting. And I guess I have my

218
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,040
Speaker 2: own theories about this, and I suspect that yours and

219
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,320
Speaker 2: mind will overlap quite a lot here. But I'd love

220
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,200
Speaker 2: to get your perspective on this. Why are children so

221
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 2: drawn in by screens? What is it about that makes

222
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 2: screens so compelling?

223
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,280
Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of what draws us in these screens,

224
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,320
Speaker 3: and the importantly, the applications that are running on the

225
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:58,760
Speaker 3: screens have been specifically designed with psychological theories that are

226
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:05,160
Speaker 3: known to hold and keep our attention. And so children

227
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,640
Speaker 3: are very susceptible to having their attention co opt in

228
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,679
Speaker 3: a way when they're confronted with very compelling content. And

229
00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,160
Speaker 3: the developers of these different apps and TV shows, they

230
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,680
Speaker 3: know exactly what they're doing. They kind of have the

231
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,959
Speaker 3: formula down path to hold our attention, our attention as adults,

232
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,800
Speaker 3: but also our children's attention, and that's kind of the

233
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,000
Speaker 3: business model. The more they can hold our attention, the

234
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,320
Speaker 3: better their bottom line does. And so that, yeah, it

235
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 3: really can sometimes go against what's best for a child's development.

236
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,680
Speaker 3: And so in the book, I really encourage parents to

237
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:53,200
Speaker 3: when they're looking at their children interacting with a particular

238
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,960
Speaker 3: digital device or application and they're trying to figure out

239
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,120
Speaker 3: is this good for my child? Is it not? But

240
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,600
Speaker 3: how do I even know? There are two questions that

241
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,080
Speaker 3: I encourage parents to ask themselves, And these are questions

242
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,680
Speaker 3: that I ask myself every day when I'm considering what

243
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 3: sort of technology is okay for Oliver to have? For

244
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,800
Speaker 3: that day and for how long. I ask myself first,

245
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,960
Speaker 3: is this self directed? And so by self directed, I

246
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,920
Speaker 3: mean experiences where your child is really in the driver's seat.

247
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,760
Speaker 3: The agency is with your child, it's not with the technology.

248
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,240
Speaker 3: And so going back to our conversation about having attention

249
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 3: being co opted, when that happens, your child is no

250
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 3: longer in the driver's seat of their digital interaction. So

251
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,600
Speaker 3: you really want to be thinking about to what extent

252
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 3: is my child kind of there and in control, Recognizing

253
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,480
Speaker 3: not all experiences are going to allow children to be

254
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:56,160
Speaker 3: equally in control of their digital experiences. So, but you

255
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,640
Speaker 3: do want to at least try as much as possible

256
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,480
Speaker 3: to steer them towards experiences that they're really in the

257
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,000
Speaker 3: driver's seat. The second question that I'm asking myself every

258
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,760
Speaker 3: day is is this experienced community supported? And by that,

259
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:17,200
Speaker 3: I mean who's are involved either during the experience or

260
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,160
Speaker 3: surrounding the experience that can actually support my child. So

261
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 3: with little kids, this tends to be parents or sometimes

262
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 3: older siblings who are on hand to help the child

263
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:35,640
Speaker 3: interact with a particular app or device, maybe engage with them.

264
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,160
Speaker 3: So joint media engagement is actually been shown to be

265
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 3: really supportive of kids development, so their literacy development, their

266
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:49,000
Speaker 3: numeracy development, and so on. So thinking about what opportunities

267
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:54,720
Speaker 3: does this digital experience provide in terms of involving other people.

268
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,080
Speaker 3: When you get into older kids and they're starting to

269
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 3: participate in online community, sometimes the support can actually come

270
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,280
Speaker 3: from within the platform, where there's an actual community online

271
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:12,440
Speaker 3: that can support kids and help them have an enriching

272
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,440
Speaker 3: experience online. The opposite is also true. Sometimes you can

273
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,680
Speaker 3: have an experience that is actually not very community supportive.

274
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 3: For instance, if your child is experiencing bullying online, that's

275
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,160
Speaker 3: sort of the opposite of community support. So it's really

276
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,360
Speaker 3: those two questions that I'm asking myself every day as

277
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,040
Speaker 3: a parent. Is this self directed? Is it community supported?

278
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,560
Speaker 3: Recognizing that not everything is going to be amazingly great

279
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,120
Speaker 3: when it comes to those two questions, but I'm at

280
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:47,320
Speaker 3: least striving for making them as good as possible.

281
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,040
Speaker 2: Katie, when you describe that, I think about my Facebook use.

282
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,000
Speaker 2: What I've found is that I have no sense of

283
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 2: agency Once I get into Facebook. It takes away my

284
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,920
Speaker 2: capacity to choose. And so what I've done with Facebook,

285
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,520
Speaker 2: I've had my wife put a screen time password with

286
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,119
Speaker 2: a screen limit of fifteen minutes per day on that

287
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,560
Speaker 2: particular app. I don't like being on there. I don't

288
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,720
Speaker 2: feel good when I'm on there, and I'm not using

289
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:11,760
Speaker 2: it for high quality interactions.

290
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:17,040
Speaker 1: I'm just scrolling through the garbage that it feeds me.

291
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:18,679
Speaker 2: And yes, the garbage that it feeds me is all

292
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,399
Speaker 2: the stuff that I'm interested in, like the surfing and

293
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:21,920
Speaker 2: the bike riding and all the other stuff that I'm

294
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 2: really passionate about in my life. But it's such unproductive

295
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 2: time and I never get off a fifteen minute Facebook session.

296
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 2: I think, oh, that was so good. I feel so

297
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,880
Speaker 2: fulfilled now. And I guess when I hear you describe

298
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,639
Speaker 2: those two things, the importance of agency autonomy, the self direction,

299
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,640
Speaker 2: and also the level of community support, those two things

300
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 2: are distinctly lacking in my social media use. Ironically, it's

301
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 2: called social media, and yet I'm not particularly using it

302
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,399
Speaker 2: in a very social way. And I can see the value,

303
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,240
Speaker 2: I can see the wisdom in what you've shared.

304
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 1: Our time is up already. I feel like we've barely started.

305
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 2: I feel like like we've talked about two of the

306
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 2: things that are in my notes that I want to

307
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,399
Speaker 2: talk about. Do you think that we could continue this

308
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 2: conversation tomorrow on the podcast.

309
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I would love to.

310
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Katie Davis, an associate professor at the

311
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,000
Speaker 2: University of Washington, about her book, recommended highly by Adam

312
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,919
Speaker 2: Grant's Next Big Idea Club as a must read. The

313
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,240
Speaker 2: book is called Technologies Child, Digital Media's role in the

314
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 2: ages and Stages of growing Up. Tomorrow, when we return,

315
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,439
Speaker 2: we're going to continue this conversation by diving into some

316
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,400
Speaker 2: of the technology challenges that we have with.

317
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,760
Speaker 1: Bigger kids and our teens.

318
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,399
Speaker 2: It's The Happy Family's podcast, produced by Justin Roland from

319
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:35,880
Speaker 2: Bridge Media.

320
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

321
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,199
Speaker 2: For more information about Technology's Child, you can see the

322
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 2: show notes and also check out Katie's website, Katie Davisresearch

323
00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 2: dot com.

324
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:46,400
Speaker 1: If you go there and sign.

325
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 2: Up for Katie's newsletter, she'll be able to send you

326
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 2: a weekly tidbit of research and ideas for how you

327
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,720
Speaker 2: can manage tech better in your home with your kids.

328
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 1: That's Katie Davisresearch dot com. Sign up for her newsletter,

329
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 1: then