Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reloaded podcast last week Airline. Welcome back guys to
Speaker 1: TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris, and on this
Speaker 1: podcast I go behind the scenes with the biggest players
Speaker 1: in television. Each episode you will get a front row
Speaker 1: seat with content makers like executive producers, writers, editors and
Speaker 1: casting agents, plus the talent that we see on our screens.
Speaker 1: TV Reload reloads the shows that you're currently watching and
Speaker 1: gives you a better insight into our television industry and
Speaker 1: our streaming services. Today. On the podcast, I have the
Speaker 1: Australian icon Tim Minchin, who is joining me to discuss
Speaker 1: Series two of his brilliant TV series Upright, which drops
Speaker 1: on the fifteenth of November on Binge and Foxtel. The
Speaker 1: scripted drama follows our two beloved miss Fitz, played by
Speaker 1: Tim and Millie Alcock, following on from the first series,
Speaker 1: which saw them both thrown together by chance in the
Speaker 1: middle of the Australian desert. They however, both reteamed for
Speaker 1: series two to track down Meg's mum and far North Queensland,
Speaker 1: and let me tell you the chaos resurfaces. Upright is
Speaker 1: a blend of humor and drama, which is executed beautifully.
Speaker 1: It is crafted by some of Australia's best scripted drama creatives.
Speaker 1: The first series winning awards and I'm sure the second
Speaker 1: series will do the same. We will talk about Tim's
Speaker 1: creative process, whether he asked Millie Alcock about her time
Speaker 1: filming House of the Dragon, and we will also unpack
Speaker 1: the highs and lows of fame, which obviously Tim knows
Speaker 1: very well. However, let's get started with today's guest. I'd
Speaker 1: like to welcome writer, musician, actor and comedian Tim Minchin
Speaker 1: to TV Reload.
Speaker 2: I think in Upright, and in my work in general,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to find ways to write stuff that does
Speaker 2: laugh in the face of pain.
Speaker 3: And the winner of Best Comedy Series is Upright.
Speaker 2: The category doesn't really matter. It's going to be funny
Speaker 2: if you get the right writers.
Speaker 1: We've got this kind of gentle humor and the drama
Speaker 1: and it's really moving.
Speaker 2: Lucky needs to take responsibility for the people that love him.
Speaker 1: That We've had no short of actors who've wanted to
Speaker 1: sort of come and play with us on Upright.
Speaker 2: I still, even after meeting so many famous people, I
Speaker 2: still my brain still makes the mistake of.
Speaker 3: Sort of putting them in a different category. I'm looking
Speaker 3: for my mum.
Speaker 2: You can't show up after four years and just expect
Speaker 2: me to hop on a plane with you. I could
Speaker 2: tell by the way she was talking about it that,
Speaker 2: you know, with all the confidentiality causes, I knew it
Speaker 2: could only be a couple of things.
Speaker 1: Hi, Tim, how are your mate?
Speaker 3: Hell Man?
Speaker 2: How are you? I'm pretty good. Yeah, a little bit
Speaker 2: crusty only in the voice. Really. I had the launch
Speaker 2: of season two of our show last night and it
Speaker 2: was a little lots of interviews and stuff, So yeah,
Speaker 2: bit crusty in the voice, but I'm fine.
Speaker 1: Well, you've been in the entertainment Zekeist for as long
Speaker 1: as I can remember, and you've made such an impact
Speaker 1: on you know, writing comedy, musicals, acting. I mean, the
Speaker 1: list really could go on, all the while still being
Speaker 1: very true to yourself. I guess the main question I
Speaker 1: have for you is where the hell do you find
Speaker 1: your energy?
Speaker 2: Uh, it's mostly fear, I think, because I lock myself
Speaker 2: into things and then you're just sort of peddling to
Speaker 2: keep up. I think I really like doing new things
Speaker 2: and sort of challenging myself, so it's sort of self perpetuating.
Speaker 2: And also I think I wasn't sort of brought up
Speaker 2: to think that you have a right to be an artist,
Speaker 2: and you know, oh, I've got talent and I'm gifted.
Speaker 2: So I'll just sort of let the inspiration come and
Speaker 2: some days I'll be on and some days I'll be off.
Speaker 2: There's sort of I don't know, something to do with
Speaker 2: the culture I was brought up here. It's like, if
Speaker 2: you want to be an artist, you'd work harder than
Speaker 2: everyone else. And you know, there are nine work hours
Speaker 2: in the day or whatever, and you work them. And
Speaker 2: if you actually just treat your work like work, it's
Speaker 2: amazing what you can get done. You know, if you
Speaker 2: don't do too much naval gazing, I still get a
Speaker 2: bit of naval gazing done.
Speaker 1: Mind, we all need it, we all need it. I
Speaker 1: guess for me, I would be like, would I get
Speaker 1: distracted on the different categories, because like I can imagine
Speaker 1: you get up and you'd be like, oh, I've got
Speaker 1: some great comedy that's you know, for almost stand up,
Speaker 1: and then you'd be like, oh, but I want to
Speaker 1: write this musical. Does it all get quite distracting or
Speaker 1: can you block it so you know exactly what you're doing.
Speaker 3: It's a good question.
Speaker 2: I mostly structure my life so I know exactly what
Speaker 2: my task is at any given time. And that's why
Speaker 2: this last month's been hard, because when you're doing lots
Speaker 2: of press and things, that's another sort of part of
Speaker 2: your brain. And because I don't really I go, well,
Speaker 2: that's not really work, that's just talking about yourself. So
Speaker 2: I should be able to do something else during that
Speaker 2: press heavy period. So I'm trying to write this new
Speaker 2: TV show and I'm on a deadline because there's a
Speaker 2: production company attached and stuff.
Speaker 3: So it's not just like me going, oh, maybe I'll
Speaker 3: have a go on a show.
Speaker 2: It's like I pitched this show and a production's company gone, yeah,
Speaker 2: here's your deadline, let's get it to market.
Speaker 3: And I'm I'm trying to write it.
Speaker 2: But I've slightly underestimated how much of my brain and
Speaker 2: energy is required for this incredible press cycle I'm doing
Speaker 2: because I've got so many things coming down the pipeline
Speaker 2: at the same time, and so it does my head.
Speaker 2: My head's been a little bit explody recently, but mostly
Speaker 2: I you know, I don't like have comedy ideas. In fact,
Speaker 2: I've not really done comedy for ten years. And it's
Speaker 2: weird because it looks like I'm simultaneously a comedian and
Speaker 2: a composer. But really I did comedy between two thousand
Speaker 2: and five and twenty twelve, and since then I've mostly
Speaker 2: been not but because of YouTube and because when I
Speaker 2: get on stage, I'm still sort of vaguely funny. No
Speaker 2: one sort of has noticed that I don't.
Speaker 3: Do comedy anymore.
Speaker 2: I mean, every now and then I put out something satirical,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I do things in clumps, is the short answer.
Speaker 1: It's hard for me because I'm in my forties and
Speaker 1: you've always been a part of my adult life, and
Speaker 1: so I think of you as all those things. You
Speaker 1: may not be all of those things, but for me,
Speaker 1: you are a comedian. You know, you did Matilda, like
Speaker 1: all of these things to me are all the things
Speaker 1: that you've achieved. So I just consider you to be
Speaker 1: those things where you know, you'd probably be a little
Speaker 1: bit mad if you woke up every day and needed
Speaker 1: to take some medication to try and balance it all out,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: No, it's all yeah, yeah, Well I love that that's
Speaker 2: how I sit in your head. And it's certainly been
Speaker 2: my ambition to be someone where if someone if someone says,
Speaker 2: what does he do that the answer is not not easy.
Speaker 2: I really really like that, and I really like that
Speaker 2: I get to I haven't got stuck in any particular area.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's quite, it's quite. Yeah, I'm quite sort
Speaker 2: of diligent or something. I just sort of do what's
Speaker 2: in front of me, and sometimes I struggle. But when
Speaker 2: I if I've got a score to write or a
Speaker 2: TV show to write, I do think I have. I
Speaker 2: do a lot of procrastinating and a lot of self
Speaker 2: doubt and all that stuff. But quite often I can
Speaker 2: just get into a if I'm in, if I'm kind
Speaker 2: of on and I've got a TV script to write,
Speaker 2: that I see no reason why he shouldn't get it
Speaker 2: done in a day, and I can't. I can get
Speaker 2: it done in a day. I can sort of hyper focus,
Speaker 2: and I think that helps me a bit.
Speaker 1: Well. Upright is and you have put so much guts
Speaker 1: into every episode. This kind of is a bit of
Speaker 1: a beginning's a bit of an origins question. So we
Speaker 1: allow people that may not have seen series one to understand.
Speaker 1: But how did these characters surface.
Speaker 2: Well, they were gifted to me really in their embryonic form,
Speaker 2: because I came on this project a little bit late.
Speaker 2: It was an idea by Chris Taylor, who's known as
Speaker 2: one of the Chaser guys, but he's been branching out
Speaker 2: over the last few years as well into all sorts
Speaker 2: of stuff, and he pitched to Lingo Pictures an idea
Speaker 2: of a guy trying to get a piano across Australia
Speaker 2: in a ute, you know, sort of an image in
Speaker 2: his head and he thought, you know, at some point
Speaker 2: he thought, oh, there could be a buddy comedy thing.
Speaker 2: Maybe he you know, picks up someone on the way.
Speaker 2: And then Lingo got Kate mulvaney and Leon Ford, who
Speaker 2: both happened to be really good friends of mine, on board,
Speaker 2: because from quite early on Chris and Lingo Pictures went well,
Speaker 2: this we should try and get Tim and I was
Speaker 2: living in la and doing stuff, so they thought it
Speaker 2: was a bit of a long shot that they would
Speaker 2: get me. But they brought on Leon and Kate and
Speaker 2: developed the sort of they came up the idea that
Speaker 2: there'd be a.
Speaker 3: Teenage runaway or a teenage girl.
Speaker 2: And that it would be this weird, odd couple, you know,
Speaker 2: comedy lark, you know, And then they pitched it to
Speaker 2: me and I came to Australia for a week and
Speaker 2: sat with them in a room and sort of said
Speaker 2: to them, I'm not that interested in comedy, or at
Speaker 2: least I think the comedy will look after itself.
Speaker 3: I want to know what the story is. I want
Speaker 3: to know what the drama is. Why is he taking
Speaker 3: this piano? All that.
Speaker 2: So we did this big workshop and realized that we
Speaker 2: wanted to make it a drama. And again, we're all
Speaker 2: comic writers, so you know, the category doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2: It's going to be funny if you get the right writers.
Speaker 2: But I wanted the bones to be dramatic, and so
Speaker 2: from that point on I was very heavily involved in
Speaker 2: the Watson whys and who's of the story. And you know,
Speaker 2: Meg rose up out of you know, Kate Mulvaney's comes
Speaker 2: from Joe and had a much sort of tougher upbringing,
Speaker 2: so a lot of discussions about what that was like
Speaker 2: growing up in the country, and she just kind of emerged.
Speaker 3: But we wanted her to be a superhero.
Speaker 2: You know that she was incredibly resilient and you know,
Speaker 2: could drive a car at thirteen and do all those things,
Speaker 2: but then of course she has all this damage as
Speaker 2: well well.
Speaker 1: The balance between humor and dark subject matter throughout series
Speaker 1: one and two is like a tapestry like no other. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, how hard is that to get that blend
Speaker 1: right when you're working in the writer's room, because they
Speaker 1: are short episodes and to then interwine something quite serious
Speaker 1: but also something that makes you laugh out loud. I
Speaker 1: imagine that to be really hard to do.
Speaker 3: It's a really good question.
Speaker 2: I'm really glad you think it succeeds, because that was
Speaker 2: always our obsession. I mean, we come from the history
Speaker 2: of our industry has always been that you either are
Speaker 2: doing comedy or drama, and it's sort of always been
Speaker 2: this artificial binary really to do with format, like they go, okay,
Speaker 2: we need it. You know, Channel seven needs a half
Speaker 2: hour show, which with adds is twenty six minutes or whatever,
Speaker 2: and you know that needs to be light and fluffy,
Speaker 2: because what can you get done in twenty six minutes?
Speaker 2: And so you put a laugh track on whatever. And
Speaker 2: then at the other end is you know, the ABC
Speaker 2: wants a drama and it's going to be fifty seven
Speaker 2: minutes and it's going to have all this and.
Speaker 3: It's just how the genres.
Speaker 2: Grew up in our heads. But they're completely artificial, and
Speaker 2: now we all stream stuff. It's just gone away. And
Speaker 2: so I guess my answer is, I think if you
Speaker 2: get rid of those categories in your head and you
Speaker 2: try and write life in a really entertaining way, what
Speaker 2: emerges is a butting of comedy and tragedy, right, Like
Speaker 2: you can't help it, because that's what life is. That's
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know. I remember when my granddad
Speaker 2: died and we're all sitting around watching him die, and
Speaker 2: the jokes that, you know, like, it's just there's so
Speaker 2: much comedy in the face of that stuff.
Speaker 1: I think if you're being raw and you're being honest
Speaker 1: about something, I think when you're going through something as well,
Speaker 1: there can be something quite funny. I mean, I can
Speaker 1: relate to that. One of my girlfriends lost her sister
Speaker 1: very sadly, and she rang me afterwards to say that,
Speaker 1: you know, they kept laughing the day that she passed away,
Speaker 1: you know, in this room, and she felt terrible about it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I think it's the human condition.
Speaker 1: I think it's a way of dealing with real world,
Speaker 1: you know. So I said not to feel bad about
Speaker 1: it and this. When I started watching Series one, I
Speaker 1: did think it was very dark, but then I found
Speaker 1: myself laughing more than being sad, and I think that's
Speaker 1: a good balance to have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much to talk about there, just
Speaker 2: the role of comedy in dealing with the tough things
Speaker 2: of life, and that we must keep doing that, you know,
Speaker 2: in the internet world, because where our activities are observed
Speaker 2: and we're worried about saying the wrong thing and stuff,
Speaker 2: it can lead to a loss of irony because irony
Speaker 2: is something that requires you know your audience.
Speaker 3: You know, the sort of irony.
Speaker 2: You know, you don't have to be being an edged
Speaker 2: lord or anything, but irony in the face of tragedy
Speaker 2: is very very important within cultures, very hard on the
Speaker 2: Internet because you don't know who's watching the whether they
Speaker 2: understand the context. I mean, irony really at its core
Speaker 2: is saying the opposite of what you mean, but having
Speaker 2: your audience understand what you mean. Right. It's a clash
Speaker 2: between content and intent. I think in upright and in
Speaker 2: my work in general, I'm trying to find ways to.
Speaker 2: I think all of us are trying to find ways to.
Speaker 2: Everything can get a little bit literal and a bit
Speaker 2: sort of precious and cautious, and I don't think that's
Speaker 2: how humans are. So I'm trying to write stuff that
Speaker 2: does laugh in the face of pain. And obviously, someone
Speaker 2: like Meg who's got this terrible, terrible trauma revealed in
Speaker 2: season one, you know, there's a few things that help
Speaker 2: her heal. I mean, she never people don't ever, one
Speaker 2: hundred percent get over that stuff, but art kind of
Speaker 2: helps her heal. And ceremony in season one they bury
Speaker 2: a camel, but it's a ceremony that she needed, and
Speaker 2: he sings a song in the middle of the desert,
Speaker 2: and that's the art that helps reflect her emotions. And
Speaker 2: then there's humor, always humor. She turns around the next
Speaker 2: morning having just revealed this terrible trauma, and we're back
Speaker 2: into gags and undercutting and stuff, And I just think
Speaker 2: it's how life works. And if I can keep doing
Speaker 2: that in my art, that feels right to me.
Speaker 1: Is this character for you in some ways a little
Speaker 1: bit cathartic to play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice to play a person who's got a
Speaker 2: bit of damage because I don't. I don't have damage
Speaker 2: I have. You know, I've lived a few years now,
Speaker 2: and I've lived around the world, and I have more
Speaker 2: stuff to talk about than I did when I started writing.
Speaker 2: When I started writing, I was very much like writing
Speaker 2: about being a middle class I want to be rockstar
Speaker 2: and stuff, and I didn't know. I sort of taken
Speaker 2: the piss out of the fact I didn't have much
Speaker 2: experience or pain to draw from. It's nice to write
Speaker 2: a character or co write a character who who's kind
Speaker 2: of like the version of me that I would be
Speaker 2: if i'd been less if I've made less good decisions,
Speaker 2: if I've made more bad decisions, like if you hadn't
Speaker 2: met Sarah, Yeah, if I hadn't met Sarah.
Speaker 3: Like it's and it is nice to play. You know.
Speaker 2: I was also not brought up to make much of
Speaker 2: a fuss of what my own feelings and my job
Speaker 2: is to be a good dad and to be a
Speaker 2: good artist and a good husband and be kind and
Speaker 2: appreciate my privilege and all that. It's quite nice to
Speaker 2: just write someone who's a bit fucked up, so you
Speaker 2: can just sort of do those bits of yourself that
Speaker 2: you're spending your whole time like going, well, there's no
Speaker 2: room for that in my life. I'll carry on being
Speaker 2: a good you know, blah blah. So it's nice to
Speaker 2: just get into the grid of what, you know, the
Speaker 2: potential experiences of human life.
Speaker 1: I suppose it's like the alternate reality. You know, this
Speaker 1: could really be where I am. Thank God I'm not,
Speaker 1: but I can dip into it and kind of enjoy it,
Speaker 1: you know, exactly without being the person that's rolled your life.
Speaker 1: You know, your chemistry with Mellie al Kock is unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Every episode it's positively magic. Did you know that she
Speaker 1: was a bona fide star the minute that you met her?
Speaker 2: I think when I first saw the tapes, you know,
Speaker 2: with the casting agent sent out the call for young
Speaker 2: women to play this role, and of course Megan season one,
Speaker 2: we find out eventually is only thirteen. So you're you're
Speaker 2: looking for teenage girls. Well, yeah, you're looking for people
Speaker 2: who can play thirteen, and there are yea. Millie was
Speaker 2: eighteen when she or not quite when she auditioned, and
Speaker 2: looks you know, famously looks very young. So there was
Speaker 2: all that, but yeah, there's absolutely no doubt. When I
Speaker 2: saw her tape, I thought, wow.
Speaker 3: She's pretty.
Speaker 2: The camera really gets her, you know, she really knows
Speaker 2: how to.
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know what it is. You know,
Speaker 3: I can talk about it for a long time.
Speaker 1: She eats the less like it, even if the dialogue
Speaker 1: isn't always it just a look, just an emotion, just
Speaker 1: an interaction that she has with Lucky is just unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I mean, a lot has changed for her in her life,
Speaker 1: you know, since you made the first series. I don't
Speaker 1: want to go too far deep into this, but were
Speaker 1: you able to ask her any questions about the Game
Speaker 1: of Thrones world House of the Dragon or did you
Speaker 1: just not ask her any of those questions?
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I yeah, we stayed in touch just vaguely
Speaker 2: through that year.
Speaker 3: I'd just sort of check.
Speaker 2: In a little bit because it's been a few years
Speaker 2: since we did season one, and obviously I can't remember.
Speaker 2: I saw her somewhere when she was waiting on She
Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to say what it was, and she told
Speaker 2: me that she was waiting on something, and I could
Speaker 2: tell she was talking about I'm going to have to
Speaker 2: go to England for a year, and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: it's Star Wars or Game of Thrones. I was like,
Speaker 2: I know, I could tell by the way she was
Speaker 2: talking about it that, you know, with all the confidentiality clauses,
Speaker 2: I knew it could only be a couple of things.
Speaker 2: And I went and saw her in We had a
Speaker 2: really nice afternoon having drinks at so her house at
Speaker 2: the end of her House of the Dragon year before
Speaker 2: she came back and it up right, and yeah, I
Speaker 2: got a big debrief on what that was. Like, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's I mean, it's a weird thing. I think viewer
Speaker 2: sort of think of the world as it's twenty million
Speaker 2: bucks an episode, right, and it's they're acting against green
Speaker 2: screen a lot, and they're you know, there's there's dragons
Speaker 2: that are out there actually just sort of sitting on
Speaker 2: cardboard boxes and all that. It's a different sort of world,
Speaker 2: but it's the same. It's not like you've got upright
Speaker 2: and then Star Wars and Star Wars is some extraordinary,
Speaker 2: extraordinarily different experience. So still you get into make up
Speaker 2: at four am and you've got costume and the costumes
Speaker 2: in the costume department and you've got your lines you
Speaker 2: have to learn and that comes on a little a
Speaker 2: five piece of paper and it's.
Speaker 3: Just like it is what it is.
Speaker 2: The difference for Millie is that she's so gifted, she's
Speaker 2: so good that she even makes some of the most
Speaker 2: experienced actors in the world look a little like they're
Speaker 2: competing having to kind of hold on while she's on screen,
Speaker 2: but she's not.
Speaker 3: But upright, it's harder. Upright, it's tougher work.
Speaker 2: You know, if you loved her in Game House of
Speaker 2: the Dragon, you haven't seen up right. I mean season
Speaker 2: one she was a kid, but her work in season
Speaker 2: two is like so the emotional range she has to
Speaker 2: play and the brutality of making an Australian TV show
Speaker 2: where you're trying to do this huge thing for a
Speaker 2: fiftieth of the money and you don't have endless takes
Speaker 2: at all, You've got one or two, and you don't
Speaker 2: have the half a day to set up the lights
Speaker 2: so that you look absolutely perfect in every frame, and
Speaker 2: you don't have all this structure around you. You're just
Speaker 2: you and your acting chops. It's you and the text
Speaker 2: and obviously fantastic lighting department, fantastic directors, fantastic cameras, but
Speaker 2: it's really harder and she I sort of just when
Speaker 2: I watch House of the Dragon, I'm like, well, she's amazing,
Speaker 2: but you guys should see this other shit she does.
Speaker 1: But I like this show, understand I like this show
Speaker 1: more like you know, I think that says more about me.
Speaker 1: And I know that there's that fandom and that you
Speaker 1: know that following that goes with something of that territory,
Speaker 1: something as big as of the Thrones world. But for me,
Speaker 1: I like Australian content. I like to feel seen on screen,
Speaker 1: and I like to feel alive while I'm watching Telly,
Speaker 1: and I feel more alive watching this kind of a
Speaker 1: kind of a story more than I can lean into
Speaker 1: that fantasy world. Absolutely, And I think people get out
Speaker 1: of stuff.
Speaker 3: Like this well.
Speaker 2: I think it takes it upright, really rewards patients in investment.
Speaker 2: Like if you sit with these characters, especially through season one,
Speaker 2: it doesn't start particularly quickly, not a lot goes on,
Speaker 2: but if you sit inside the upright world, by the
Speaker 2: time you hit a bait, you will definitely be like
Speaker 2: properly crying in a way that you won't ever with
Speaker 2: House of the Dragon, just because you're not as invested
Speaker 2: in the human characters. Like I love House of the Dragon,
Speaker 2: but you just got to think of it as too
Speaker 2: completely separate. It's like comparing a ROAs Lamb to Pavlova.
Speaker 2: They're just like different genres and what we're working on,
Speaker 2: we're working with different tools, and our tools are the
Speaker 2: minutia of humanity, not the not the drama of epic
Speaker 2: generations of Dragon writers. You know, it's it's really much
Speaker 2: more sort of personal and relatable.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I like I like Pablova and roast in Us.
Speaker 1: You know, everyone's life is full of drama. We all
Speaker 1: have stuff going on in our life. But the thing
Speaker 1: I love about this show is I something like, yesterday
Speaker 1: I fell off my neighbor's balcony while trying to stop
Speaker 1: her balcony overflowing with water. She accidentally had a thing burst,
Speaker 1: and I was like, so ingrained in this show. I
Speaker 1: was like, this is the part of the episode where
Speaker 1: it turns sideways and it says.
Speaker 3: Up right, I can't you fell off a balcony.
Speaker 1: I know you could see. Actually I thought I'd broken
Speaker 1: my nose. You can't really see it, but we all
Speaker 1: have like cookie weird stuff that happens in our life
Speaker 1: that this show does very well.
Speaker 3: That's so good.
Speaker 1: I mean, it should just turn the camera needs to
Speaker 1: turn sideways. We're in the real world, so that doesn't
Speaker 1: happen before we go. I just wanted to say, I
Speaker 1: think that you tap into some really raw territory of
Speaker 1: modern families. And I love that you've thrown stereotypes out
Speaker 1: the window, you know, because if I mean, we can
Speaker 1: think back to shows that we probably grew up with
Speaker 1: and there's a mom and a dad and it's all
Speaker 1: very you know, stereotypical, where this show really talks to
Speaker 1: the people out there that are living in family that
Speaker 1: isn't the norm.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, and it really tries to talk about how,
Speaker 2: especially Susan two, tries to talk about how the kind
Speaker 2: of people you have to take responsibility for other people
Speaker 2: who need you, you know, and sometimes we don't feel
Speaker 2: very capable. That Lucky doesn't feel like people need him
Speaker 2: because he's self esteem so bad and he's so screwed
Speaker 2: up about himself, as you know, without spoiling it too much,
Speaker 2: but someone in the final app says, the thing with
Speaker 2: Lucky is he thinks he can not hurt people by
Speaker 2: taking himself away from them, but he ends up doing
Speaker 2: the oppos And your family is really the people who
Speaker 2: need you. And I wonder if I'm getting a bit
Speaker 2: old and I'm a bit traditional or something, but I
Speaker 2: see all this stuff on Facebook, but people are like,
Speaker 2: you know, if someone's not bringing positive light into your life,
Speaker 2: like cut them out, you know.
Speaker 3: Get rid of all the people who are bringing you down.
Speaker 2: And then the energy vampires and you know, all that
Speaker 2: sort of self helpshit about, like excoriating the people from
Speaker 2: your life that are troublesome. And it's like, well, I
Speaker 2: know what you're saying, but if you're lucky enough to
Speaker 2: be okay, you'll have people in your life who are
Speaker 2: not okay, who are like a total frickin' drain.
Speaker 3: But if they're in your life and they need you.
Speaker 2: It's not about what you need, it's about what they need.
Speaker 2: And I think lucky you need to take responsibility for
Speaker 2: the people that love him. And that's what family is,
Speaker 2: I suppose in our show, and I think I think
Speaker 2: it is complex and messy, but I think that's where
Speaker 2: the emotion comes from.
Speaker 3: It comes from people trying to resolve these issues.
Speaker 1: You know, those people online are talking about themselves, right,
Speaker 1: you know those people that are like, I need to
Speaker 1: get rid of these people from my life. And someone
Speaker 1: said that to me. They're like, they're talking about themselves.
Speaker 1: They're talking about the thing they don't like about themselves.
Speaker 1: Because if you delve a little bit deeper, it's usually
Speaker 1: they're like, I need someone out of my life. That's drama.
Speaker 1: But then they're protesting too much. Like you can see
Speaker 1: the drama in the text. You can see that.
Speaker 3: And that's very that's projection, right, Yeah, that's bad.
Speaker 1: That's the real self loathing. What has success done for Lucky?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 1: And I have to ask you about success because people
Speaker 1: want to be famous, well people, some people want to
Speaker 1: be famous and have the money and have you know,
Speaker 1: the fame and the glory. What a success do you
Speaker 1: think done for liking? And is there a bad side
Speaker 1: to success? I guess this is the question that I'm
Speaker 1: really asking.
Speaker 2: Yes is the answer to the second half. And it
Speaker 2: requires a lot of introspection and management to not let
Speaker 2: certain types of success ruin your life, but or at
Speaker 2: least make your life very odd. For Lucky, the reason
Speaker 2: I thought it would be a good idea to put
Speaker 2: him in a place in the beginning of season two
Speaker 2: where he, you know, to the audience's surprise.
Speaker 3: And I don't think it matters if I spoil it
Speaker 3: a bit, because it happened.
Speaker 2: It's revealed in the first two minutes of the show,
Speaker 2: but of season two, but to the audience's surprise. Lucky,
Speaker 2: who in season one is so sort of hapless and
Speaker 2: useless and ends season one with some spiritual resolution, but
Speaker 2: he doesn't even have a piano anymore, let alone a
Speaker 2: home or a girlfriend or anything. He's left kind of empty,
Speaker 2: but a little bit better. But he seems to have
Speaker 2: got what someone like Lucky would want. He's the frontman
Speaker 2: of a band playing his own music to pack, you know, venues,
Speaker 2: and he has this incredibly beautiful girlfriend who's a celeb
Speaker 2: who's like, you know, got paps after her because she's
Speaker 2: like a lead in Aussie drama or a cop show.
Speaker 2: And the reason I thought that was interesting is because
Speaker 2: we then get to see very quickly the extent to
Speaker 2: which it doesn't fix anything. So you can get the
Speaker 2: things you thought you wanted, but you won't feel good
Speaker 2: until you've dealt with the things that in your core
Speaker 2: that are fucking you up sort of thing. And so
Speaker 2: for Lucky, we know that he still has this huge,
Speaker 2: unresolved thing and he can't kind of get past it.
Speaker 2: And I guess that's the wisdom in Upright Season two,
Speaker 2: is that you the exterior staff of success, and you know,
Speaker 2: a nice house by the beach and a beautiful girlfriend
Speaker 2: is all well and good, but not if you haven't
Speaker 2: got your base level sorted. And I think that's the
Speaker 2: same in real life. I think I'm very, very lucky
Speaker 2: to have got Artistically, my career is beyond my wildest dreams.
Speaker 2: Like I never thought I would get to do half this.
Speaker 2: I never thought i'd have musical on Broadway or be
Speaker 2: writing TV or anything. I sort of thought maybe I
Speaker 2: could write music for theater or something. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but it's so far beyond what I dreamt. And in
Speaker 2: terms of other measures of success, like I've got a
Speaker 2: nice house and view of the beach and all that
Speaker 2: stuff that I put lucky and you know, I'm not
Speaker 2: happier than I was, and that's a sort of tough
Speaker 2: thing to learn. Everyone says that, but until you're there,
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel real. There's a huge amount of benefit
Speaker 2: to ending up where I've ended up, and I'm very,
Speaker 2: very lucky, and I really enjoy it. But it's quite
Speaker 2: a profound feeling to go, oh, I've got all this
Speaker 2: stuff I dreamed of and I feel the same. And
Speaker 2: by the same, I mean, I'm fine, and some days
Speaker 2: everything's shit and some days it's a struggle, and some
Speaker 2: you know, and it's a it's a big lesson, but
Speaker 2: I don't know how to pass it on because it
Speaker 2: just sounds like absurd privilege to try and pass.
Speaker 3: It on, you know.
Speaker 1: No, it's weird, like some the most the most amount
Speaker 1: of success I've ever had, all the most amount of
Speaker 1: notoriety I've had, is actually been the loneliest time of
Speaker 1: my life. And sometimes having some notoriety and some interest
Speaker 1: from other people can actually accentuate some of the bad
Speaker 1: things in your life. So you kind of have to
Speaker 1: ground yourself. And I guess that's why you're wearing shorts
Speaker 1: that you brought from Big w that are really.
Speaker 3: Short to Yeah, they're out of ass. I mean, can
Speaker 3: you get added as I couldn't see the aud As logo.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go for a going to go for
Speaker 2: a run after this, Hey, do you think what do
Speaker 2: you think that's about? I mean, I don't know how
Speaker 2: long you have to talk about it, but do you
Speaker 2: think what's the sense of isolation about what happens? Do
Speaker 2: you change when you've got a lot of attention or
Speaker 2: do the people around you change how they relate to you?
Speaker 2: Does it isolate you?
Speaker 1: I didn't feel like people. Problem is I didn't feel
Speaker 1: like anyone was listening to me. I felt like people
Speaker 1: were wanting to talk to me for the sake of
Speaker 1: getting facetimed. But what I noticed about everybody, including people
Speaker 1: that had always been in my life, where they were
Speaker 1: not listening to what I was saying back to them
Speaker 1: because they just wanted to be in your company. And
Speaker 1: you would know this more than anyone, because you're of
Speaker 1: a level of notoriety, much more than I've ever been
Speaker 1: able to achieve. But you would know that feeling, you know,
Speaker 1: where you're talking to someone who's just really soulless because
Speaker 1: all they want is the interaction from you. They don't
Speaker 1: actually care about what you're saying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's interesting.
Speaker 1: It made me feel lonely, that's what it made me feel.
Speaker 1: Made me feel Really.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting, and you might be more emotionally intelligent
Speaker 2: than me, because I think what I've done is just gone.
Speaker 2: I'm going to pretend that no one knows who I am,
Speaker 2: because how else should one. When I meet a new person,
Speaker 2: I just sort of assume they don't know anything about me,
Speaker 2: and in Australia and England that's increasingly unlikely, but I
Speaker 2: just go with that, and if they want to bring
Speaker 2: up that they've seen me in a thing, or that
Speaker 2: they like my work, or that they disagree with me,
Speaker 2: and until then, I just sort of assume the relationships
Speaker 2: on even footing, because I certainly feel like I don't.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's quite hard to explain the extent to
Speaker 2: which I don't feel at all like a better or
Speaker 2: different person from any person I talked to, obviously, but
Speaker 2: when you've seen someone and tell you a lot. Because
Speaker 2: I've been through this again and again. I've met you know,
Speaker 2: Tom Cruise and Sandra Bullock and you know, some of
Speaker 2: the most famous people on the planet. And every time
Speaker 2: I meet one of those people, I go, oh my god,
Speaker 2: this is a different person than Within a minute, I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh no, it's just a fricking person, you know. But
Speaker 2: I still, even after meeting so many famous people, I
Speaker 2: still my brain still makes the mistake of sort of
Speaker 2: putting them in a different category. And so I think
Speaker 2: if you're sensitive to the knowledge that that's what they're doing,
Speaker 2: it would be very isolating. I think I'd just sort
Speaker 2: of pretend that's not the case.
Speaker 1: You kind of have to to stay real. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think if you, if you are enjoying it, I
Speaker 1: think you're a bit of a psycho. You know, to
Speaker 1: be honest with you, you know where you kind of
Speaker 1: have to. I've now created a bubble, which means that
Speaker 1: I'm almost like in a bunker, which means that my
Speaker 1: life is so real world and normal for me that
Speaker 1: nothing really can interfere with it anymore like that. And
Speaker 1: I'm not going to lie and say that I didn't
Speaker 1: want that. Growing up, I was like, oh, what would
Speaker 1: it be like to be famous? What would it be
Speaker 1: like to have people be interested in new to that capacity?
Speaker 1: And my fame was only very fleeting because it came
Speaker 1: from reality television. But there for a good yep, I
Speaker 1: couldn't do anything without people doing really inappropriate things like
Speaker 1: someone took a photo and put it on Instagram. With
Speaker 1: me and the toilet at a restaurant, and I just
Speaker 1: was like, I felt so invaded by all of this stuff,
Speaker 1: and it, yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Think that version of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have no envy, and I worry a lot
Speaker 2: about kids who suddenly go from nothing to fame. I
Speaker 2: think that is probably permanently damaging. And I think if
Speaker 2: you wanted to have a chat on your podcast one
Speaker 2: day about that specifically, I'll be very interested, because I
Speaker 2: do you know, I worry about Millie and her sudden fame,
Speaker 2: but at least she's known for her art.
Speaker 3: She's not a celeb, you know.
Speaker 2: And if anyone ever calls me a celebrity, I go,
Speaker 2: what are you talking about?
Speaker 3: Like I don't even know what that means.
Speaker 2: Like celebrities are people who like go to red carpets
Speaker 2: and get given products to sell, and I like on
Speaker 2: the front of magas.
Speaker 3: I'm like, a, I'm not a celebrity. I don't. It
Speaker 3: doesn't fit me at all. I just make work.
Speaker 2: And but I'm very lucky because I have been with
Speaker 2: my partner since I was very young, and I already
Speaker 2: had kids.
Speaker 3: On the way when things took off for me.
Speaker 2: And I think that bubble you've talked about that you've
Speaker 2: created of sort of total normality. I think I got
Speaker 2: that for free by being already trapped into being having
Speaker 2: these family priorities, so it kind of I never got
Speaker 2: to sort of live in the crazy bubble of fame.
Speaker 2: I was always pulled back to earth. And I think
Speaker 2: that's I'm so so grateful for that, because because being
Speaker 2: important is incredibly intoxicating being someone when you walk into
Speaker 2: a room, everyone goes, oh, that is It's something in
Speaker 2: our human many of our brains that want that, that
Speaker 2: status and that power. And once you've had it, it's very,
Speaker 2: very corrupting, and you have to find a way to
Speaker 2: take the value of that because that's poison, because that's
Speaker 2: unsustainable and it's not the right thing to value. And
Speaker 2: being an applause addict or an adoration addict or an
Speaker 2: affirmation addict, which I think I am a bit, it's
Speaker 2: something I'm like literally working on.
Speaker 3: Like you don't need everyone to love your work.
Speaker 2: You just need your friends to love you, you know, Like
Speaker 2: you have to love your work.
Speaker 1: I want to get up and enjoy what it is
Speaker 1: that I do, and it is about the work. I
Speaker 1: love chatting to people and It's what I've always been doing,
Speaker 1: and I want to stay in that space where that's
Speaker 1: my passion, because if I'm doing anything else, it's not real.
Speaker 1: It's not you know, I'm doing it for the money
Speaker 1: or I'm doing it for the cause, where for me,
Speaker 1: I genuinely want to have conversations and hear people's story.
Speaker 2: And you're very good at it too, Ben like you.
Speaker 2: Not everyone can do that, can listen authentically and do
Speaker 2: what you do.
Speaker 3: So I hope you feel that.
Speaker 2: You've ended in a well for now, you're in a
Speaker 2: good place because it is a gift.
Speaker 3: It's great.
Speaker 1: Before you go, I have to ask you this question.
Speaker 1: It's something I ask everyone that joins the podcast. It
Speaker 1: is what is something from behind the scenes, something that
Speaker 1: we will not see that we you know, won't see
Speaker 1: from the making of this show. Is there any kind
Speaker 1: of funny, silly anecdote that you'll be sitting around the
Speaker 1: table talking about for years. I can't believe that happened.
Speaker 2: Well, I can say two things about this. One is
Speaker 2: I'm terrible at these questions. My brain just goes I
Speaker 2: don't know, like, I'm like the worst anecdotalist ever. As
Speaker 2: you can tell, I love talking about ideas and unpacking ideas,
Speaker 2: but I'm terrible at telling stories.
Speaker 3: It's like my pressure off.
Speaker 1: Take the pressure off.
Speaker 2: But the other part of the answer to that question
Speaker 2: is what people might not know is making tell you,
Speaker 2: especially in Australia with our relatively low budgets, it is
Speaker 2: like going on a you know, it's not Ned Brockman
Speaker 2: running one hundred k's a day across Australia, but it's
Speaker 2: a bit like that.
Speaker 3: It's like every day is so full on.
Speaker 2: So you know, all the anecdotes that spring to mind
Speaker 2: about upright or that you know, getting a phone call
Speaker 2: saying this location has flooded because it was you know,
Speaker 2: south Point, it was Queensland.
Speaker 3: In the middle of the beginning of this year.
Speaker 2: So and you know, we can't go into production because
Speaker 2: not enough rapid androgen tests to test everyone every day,
Speaker 2: and we can't do it without testing everyone because of insurance.
Speaker 2: And you know, yeah, so all my anecdotes are actually
Speaker 2: like anecdotes of like whenever you hear about any production
Speaker 2: like Apocalypse Now or whatever that's on a river or
Speaker 2: in a tropical environment, it's just horror stories, you know.
Speaker 2: And also you kind of you I block it out
Speaker 2: like I kind of it's all a blur because you're
Speaker 2: getting so little sleep and you're when you're a writer, producer,
Speaker 2: star like me. I mean, my brain's just completely yeah,
Speaker 2: no shit, I'm shit in anecdotes, but yeah, it's all.
Speaker 3: It's all.
Speaker 2: It's all kind of somewhere in between one full and
Speaker 2: trauma making.
Speaker 1: Telly mate, I have been in your audience for so
Speaker 1: long and I really appreciate all that you do. And
Speaker 1: this second series you've outdone the first series, which is impossible.
Speaker 1: I have only seen the first three episodes, but I'm
Speaker 1: absolutely addicted. But thank you for your generosity with your
Speaker 1: time chatting with me today, and thank you for the
Speaker 1: work that you do. You know, I've been in your
Speaker 1: audience for so long and I will continue to do so.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Ben, And I want to hear from you
Speaker 2: by some means when you watch all of the rest
Speaker 2: of the episodes, I want to know what you think.
Speaker 1: Well, got three episodes last night. I watched them all together,
Speaker 1: and I did watch series one all in one go.
Speaker 1: D who's listening to this will know that I watched
Speaker 1: that whole first series in one city.
Speaker 3: It's a good way to do it.
Speaker 1: I was so intoxicated by it, but I felt like
Speaker 1: I knew these people. You know, it's like having ownership
Speaker 1: over something.
Speaker 3: But yeah, oh that makes me so happy.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the chat.