WEBVTT - The People-Pleasing Trap: How Laura Henshaw escaped it (and how you can too)

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<v Speaker 1>Do you find yourself constantly trying to ensure that people

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<v Speaker 1>like you, maybe bending over backwards to avoid giving bad

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<v Speaker 1>news or make someone unhappy. But what if the extra

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<v Speaker 1>reassurance and the fear of being too direct actually causing

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<v Speaker 1>you more harm than good. Many of us battle with

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<v Speaker 1>some degree of people pleasing in our personalities, and the

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<v Speaker 1>negative consequences can appear both in our personal and professional lives.

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<v Speaker 1>To dive into this topic, we are joined by Laura

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<v Speaker 1>Henshaw to talk about how she realized that her need

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<v Speaker 1>to be liked was affecting those working under her. Laura

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<v Speaker 1>Henshaw is a dynamic force in the health and wellness

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<v Speaker 1>industry as the co founder and CEO of the incredibly

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<v Speaker 1>successful Kick app and community. She leads a mission to

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<v Speaker 1>reshape how people perceive wellness and their relationship with themselves,

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<v Speaker 1>and Laura is having a massive impact with the Kick

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<v Speaker 1>app currently sitting at over two point five million users

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<v Speaker 1>and reaching people in over one hundred and twenty countries.

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<v Speaker 1>In this episode, we discussed the ways that your people

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<v Speaker 1>pleasing could be holding you back, how Laura changed her

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<v Speaker 1>people pleasing behavior, and how she broke her destructive habit

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<v Speaker 1>of reading comments from all the trolls. Welcome to How

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<v Speaker 1>I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for

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<v Speaker 1>optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. In

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<v Speaker 1>addition to her incredible success, Laura is a self confessed

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<v Speaker 1>people pleaser, but she's done the work to improve in

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<v Speaker 1>that area. In fact, she did that work with her coach,

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<v Speaker 1>Jennie Martino, who helped her realize how her need to

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<v Speaker 1>be liked was affecting her work.

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<v Speaker 2>The biggest thing that comes to mind is when I

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<v Speaker 2>met Janie. One of the biggest things holding me back

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<v Speaker 2>in when I say reaching my full potential as a leader,

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like we're always learning and growing, right, So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm definitely not there yet, and I hope I never

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<v Speaker 2>get there, because you want to keep growing and evolving.

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<v Speaker 2>But something that was holding me back a lot was

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<v Speaker 2>how much I cared about what people think or thought,

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<v Speaker 2>and also my need to be liked by every single person.

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<v Speaker 2>When you need to be liked by everyone that you're leading,

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<v Speaker 2>if that's kind of something that and I didn't consciously

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<v Speaker 2>put it as a KPI, but subconsciously that was number

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<v Speaker 2>one before everything else, which isn't the best for anyone

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<v Speaker 2>at all, because then you're leading at a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the time in fear because you don't want to let

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<v Speaker 2>anyone down. You want people to like you. So giving

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<v Speaker 2>feedback is incredibly difficult. Feedback is obviously incredibly important for

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<v Speaker 2>people growing in their career, al so in being clear

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<v Speaker 2>and where you actually want the business to go and

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<v Speaker 2>taking control of it and executing the vision, the strategy, etc.

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<v Speaker 2>But I was so stuck in thinking that that mattered.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think for me, I have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people pleasing tendencies, and I don't want to say that

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<v Speaker 2>all women do not have that, and that's great, and

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want anyone listening to think that, oh, because

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a woman, I must be a people pleaser, because

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's the case at all. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think unfortunately maybe in gender stereotypical roles where more of

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<v Speaker 2>the care is or expected to be, etc. And so

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes it does come up. And so my people pleasing

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<v Speaker 2>tendencies really leaned into that need to be liked, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I've had to undo a lot of that, which

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<v Speaker 2>Janey helped me work through, and I have just like

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<v Speaker 2>the way that I'm able to lead now in comparison

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<v Speaker 2>when I look back at that person, I'm like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>my goodness, it's crazy. Like I do identify still with

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<v Speaker 2>with myself of you know, three or whatever years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>two years ago, but I just feel so different, like

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<v Speaker 2>I've been let free and being able to let that go.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like you've just described my twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to know for you, though, Laura, if you

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<v Speaker 1>think back over the last three years and this big

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<v Speaker 1>shift that you've made, what are some of those practical

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<v Speaker 1>things that you did, all those mindset shifts that you

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<v Speaker 1>had to make that had the biggest difference.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's such a good question, and it's great that

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<v Speaker 2>you've also been on the journey because I think a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people have and will relate to this. For me,

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<v Speaker 2>and one of the questions Janie asked me was and

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<v Speaker 2>we work through this in one of my I think

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<v Speaker 2>it was almost my first session with Janey, which was

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<v Speaker 2>why do you want to be liked? Like? Why is

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<v Speaker 2>that important? And is that actually what is important to you?

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<v Speaker 2>And what we came out to is, no, I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not really about being liked per se, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>about being respected. And I think that was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>rooted in a lot of stuff. For me. I know

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<v Speaker 2>we might touch today on imposter syndrome and kind of

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<v Speaker 2>being a young female leader. So because of where my

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<v Speaker 2>career started was with social or part of it was

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<v Speaker 2>social media, and so for a very long time, I

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<v Speaker 2>felt that I wasn't taken seriously. Well I wasn't. Actually

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<v Speaker 2>I can not just what I thought. I was not

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<v Speaker 2>taken seriously by a lot of people that I worked with.

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<v Speaker 1>How did you know for sure?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean there were times when I was in

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<v Speaker 2>rooms with people that I worked with that would describe

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<v Speaker 2>so often Steph and I as the marketing girls, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, no, we built this brand, we run this business, etc.

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<v Speaker 2>There's been multiple occasions where that has happened in different ways,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think at that time, I felt like I

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<v Speaker 2>just had to prove myself. And I think because of

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of I've definitely worked through that and now

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<v Speaker 2>I know that like that's on them. I don't have

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<v Speaker 2>to prove myself to anyone. But that definitely was a

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<v Speaker 2>big cause of why I then felt that I had

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of lead that way. And so for me,

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<v Speaker 2>it was kind of thinking about, Okay, I need to

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<v Speaker 2>be respected, that's what it's important, and then it's unpacking. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>how do you get respect with your team? How do

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<v Speaker 2>you get respect with the people around you by being

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<v Speaker 2>a good leader and knowing that you can still lead

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<v Speaker 2>with empathy, because that's very, very very important to me.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think it was also the realization that it

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<v Speaker 2>is impossible to be liked by everyone because no matter what,

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<v Speaker 2>like I know that you know, in running a business

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<v Speaker 2>and everyone that's listening that does most decisions you make,

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<v Speaker 2>there is going to be someone that's not going to

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<v Speaker 2>like the decision. It's very very rare we make decisions

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<v Speaker 2>where everyone agrees on it and is going to like

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<v Speaker 2>the outcome, right, especially when you're running a business. And

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<v Speaker 2>so it was also that realization that I was, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm setting myself up to fail because i can't actually

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<v Speaker 2>achieve this and I'm not driving the business. And in

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<v Speaker 2>my role as CEO of if I'm not driving the

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<v Speaker 2>business for then I shouldn't be in the.

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<v Speaker 1>Role how then, because I feel like one of the

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<v Speaker 1>hardest areas where this plays out is when you have

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<v Speaker 1>to have those tough conversations and I mean I hate

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<v Speaker 1>calling them to have conversations. I try to think of

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<v Speaker 1>them as important conversations as opposed to difficult conversations because

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<v Speaker 1>it changes the mindset. But they're hard if you've got

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<v Speaker 1>a high need to be liked and you are delivering

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<v Speaker 1>news that someone else is going to find tough or

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<v Speaker 1>confronting or hard to take on board. How did you

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<v Speaker 1>change your approach to those kinds of conversations.

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<v Speaker 2>I think realizing that in going in to be liked.

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<v Speaker 2>So there was one instance. I remember I delivered something

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<v Speaker 2>to the team and Janie was there, and she said,

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<v Speaker 2>because I had always thought like I have to do

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<v Speaker 2>like a sandwich, I think this is something I don't

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<v Speaker 2>actually got sandwich. I don't agree that I should be.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's the best way to approachings, but

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<v Speaker 2>I used to. And the feedback I got was it

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<v Speaker 2>was almost like I made a sandwich, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>like with the thinnest slice of ham in the middle,

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<v Speaker 2>which is what I had to deliver, and then it

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<v Speaker 2>had like a hundred pieces of bread on both sides,

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<v Speaker 2>so no one got the message no one's tasty because

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<v Speaker 2>I put so stuff around it in the fear that

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<v Speaker 2>of the thing I was delivering. What that then means

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<v Speaker 2>is I think when you're delivering out of a place

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<v Speaker 2>of fear. If you don't believe in what you're saying

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<v Speaker 2>or feel that it's fair or whatever it might be,

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<v Speaker 2>how the heck is your team going to find it

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<v Speaker 2>also fair and believe in it back. So that's number

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<v Speaker 2>one thing. But what I then was able to navigate

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<v Speaker 2>through time was realizing the biggest I think one of

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<v Speaker 2>the biggest realizations for me was feedback is a kindness.

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<v Speaker 2>Being clear is kind That's the biggest thing. And there's

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<v Speaker 2>a book I can't remember the name of it. I

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<v Speaker 2>will find it once I finish this pod and I

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<v Speaker 2>can send it through to put in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's fantastic And at the start of it there's

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<v Speaker 2>a chapter around an employee that never gets feedback. They're

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<v Speaker 2>the really likable person in the office. They contribute to

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<v Speaker 2>culture Radical candor Yes, radical Canda, Yes Yeah. Who's the

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<v Speaker 2>author is it Kim Scott? Yes? Kim Scott, Radical Candor.

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<v Speaker 2>That first chapter made I recommend anyone that is struggling

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<v Speaker 2>with this right now to read that. It made such

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<v Speaker 2>a bigin for me because this person in this book

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't giving any given any feedback because everyone was trying

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<v Speaker 2>to avoid it because they liked them and they thought

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<v Speaker 2>that would be best for them. And then when they

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<v Speaker 2>were let go and they said, why didn't anyone tell me?

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<v Speaker 2>It's like stepping back and actually thinking about that, why

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<v Speaker 2>didn't anyone tell you? Because they were trying to protect you?

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<v Speaker 2>But in trying to protect you and be likable, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>to them, you then set them up to fail in

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<v Speaker 2>their role. And if people are coming to work with you,

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<v Speaker 2>I think I always feel like Kick, we're so lucky

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<v Speaker 2>to have the team that we have, and for people

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<v Speaker 2>to take time within their career path at Kick, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and for us to be part of their journey is

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<v Speaker 2>a really special thing, and it's very important that we

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<v Speaker 2>offer career growth and development for those people. But if

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<v Speaker 2>we're not giving feedback on how they can improve or

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<v Speaker 2>being clear with our expectations, that's not the best for

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<v Speaker 2>them and it's also not the best for the business.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's where another really really big lesson from Janney

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<v Speaker 2>has come in on communication and the power of being

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<v Speaker 2>clear that you can do that with empathy, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>been a huge, huge lesson for me as well. And

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<v Speaker 2>you just as I said, like that sandwich with the

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<v Speaker 2>hundred slices of bread on each side. It doesn't help anyone.

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<v Speaker 2>And you say it is hard. You walk into the room,

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<v Speaker 2>you know you're having a hard conversation. You just need

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<v Speaker 2>to start it. Once you're in the conversation, it's absolutely fine.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kind of just that start part where you feel uncomfortable,

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<v Speaker 2>but you're also assuming what the other person is going

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<v Speaker 2>to do or how they're going to react. You don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I think we need to also give people

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<v Speaker 2>the benefit of the doubt in that situation that though

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<v Speaker 2>they might be aligned with this or they might take

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<v Speaker 2>this on board, it's also their choice if they take

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<v Speaker 2>it on board or not right, but it is as

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<v Speaker 2>leaders it is our responsibility to share that with them.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to ask in terms of this need to

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<v Speaker 1>be liked and how you've kind of shifted that into

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's a need to be respected. I'm reminded

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<v Speaker 1>of I thought it was such a powerful interview that

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<v Speaker 1>you gave on the Imperfect I want to say that

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<v Speaker 1>was late twenty twenty three maybe, but during that interview

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<v Speaker 1>you spoke about how you read the comments online, all

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<v Speaker 1>of them, and Steph, your business partner and best friend doesn't,

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<v Speaker 1>and I remember being really surprised but curious. Has your

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<v Speaker 1>behavior changed in light of, I guess, trying to manage

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<v Speaker 1>your people pleasing ways? Or do you still do that? Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>Great question. I'm very proud to say that I don't

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<v Speaker 2>do that anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>How did you stop?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I working through all of this, and I

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<v Speaker 2>suppose it's kind of separate to my leadership journey per se,

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<v Speaker 2>but it'll write it it all comes together and links in.

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<v Speaker 2>I tried to and have been on a journey to

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<v Speaker 2>stop caring about what people I think. And Brene Brown

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<v Speaker 2>talks about this a lot, and it's one of my

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<v Speaker 2>favorite pieces of work that she has done when she

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<v Speaker 2>talks about people in the arena and if someone is

0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:52.920
<v Speaker 2>not in the arena with you, getting their butt kicked

0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.560
<v Speaker 2>like their opinion. I've definitely put to this, But essentially

0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.199
<v Speaker 2>it's like their opinion doesn't matter because they're up sitting

0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.840
<v Speaker 2>just watching and observing. And I think what I was

0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.360
<v Speaker 2>doing was thinking that. For me, it comes down to

0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.240
<v Speaker 2>growing up. Something that I valued myself on a lot

0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:13.680
<v Speaker 2>was being a hard worker. And so that's something that

0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to undo as an adult now because I

0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.280
<v Speaker 2>think often what I do is I hide behind the

0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.760
<v Speaker 2>fact that I work hard, because then I don't have

0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:23.400
<v Speaker 2>to think about, well, hang on, what value do I

0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.520
<v Speaker 2>add here? It's like, well, I'm a hard worker. That's

0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.080
<v Speaker 2>the value that I add. But if I strip that

0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.800
<v Speaker 2>back and I don't do that, which can lead to

0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.880
<v Speaker 2>burnout and you can't work, you know, sixteen hours a

0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:35.640
<v Speaker 2>day for the rest of your life every single day.

0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.559
<v Speaker 2>It's too much, you know, ebbs and flows, and sometimes

0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.800
<v Speaker 2>I'll be busy weeks and less busy weeks. But I

0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.480
<v Speaker 2>have had to strip that back, and I think a

0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:48.080
<v Speaker 2>part of that was there's a book called Burnout. It's fantastic.

0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.000
<v Speaker 2>There's one page that's about the whip and I just

0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.040
<v Speaker 2>related to it so much when I read it, and

0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.800
<v Speaker 2>essentially what they talk about is and it's mainly aimed

0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.000
<v Speaker 2>at women. This book. For a lot of people, we

0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.520
<v Speaker 2>feel that we have to seek out this, like I

0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 2>was these trolling comments because the reason I was seeking

0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:07.840
<v Speaker 2>them out is because I feel like I have to

0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.160
<v Speaker 2>continue working hard, I have to continue improving, and so

0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:13.440
<v Speaker 2>if I would read it, it was almost this fuel

0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:15.360
<v Speaker 2>of the fire of Okay, I'm not good enough yet,

0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.280
<v Speaker 2>I have to keep. In the book, the way they

0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.079
<v Speaker 2>talk about it is it's a whip. I have to

0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.760
<v Speaker 2>keep whipping myself because then if you pull back and

0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.719
<v Speaker 2>what they talk about in the book, and you look

0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 2>at where you've what you've built, or how you in

0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:28.960
<v Speaker 2>your career, where you've got to, and you know with

0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.960
<v Speaker 2>what we've built with Kick, I look back and I think, Okay,

0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.600
<v Speaker 2>the reason I have got here is because of the whip.

0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.160
<v Speaker 2>So if I put the whip down and I stop

0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.360
<v Speaker 2>fueling myself through all of these kind of horrible trolling

0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.560
<v Speaker 2>comments online, constantly trying to be better and better and better,

0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.520
<v Speaker 2>I won't have any drive and therefore I won't be

0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 2>able to continue to grow. Then it's been working through

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 2>like that. Whip is not the reason that I have

0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.640
<v Speaker 2>got to where I am today and unpacking that, but

0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.880
<v Speaker 2>it has been really really hard to do that. And

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.240
<v Speaker 2>it also depends, like I feel like our confidence ebbs

0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.480
<v Speaker 2>and flows, and I know when you think of like

0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.520
<v Speaker 2>the most kind of corny Pinterest quote, it's like confidence

0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 2>is not a destination. It's a journey. I know, and

0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.560
<v Speaker 2>I can see like the clouds around it. But it's true, right,

0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.040
<v Speaker 2>you can never ever ever stop working on yourself, and

0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.160
<v Speaker 2>so sometimes I will go through stages where I feel

0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.360
<v Speaker 2>tempted to go and look at those comments and take

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.160
<v Speaker 2>them on board. But I have done a lot of

0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.640
<v Speaker 2>work on myself to now have so many tools to

0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.080
<v Speaker 2>not go and do that and know that how hard

0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.240
<v Speaker 2>I work has nothing to do with how worthy I

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 2>am as a person, and that I'm you know, capable

0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:40.400
<v Speaker 2>of deserving of things. That's been really hard to work through,

0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.880
<v Speaker 2>but that has been so important in truly believing like

0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.480
<v Speaker 2>within myself to be able to kind of get through

0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.360
<v Speaker 2>that stuff. And I definitely still have self doubt, but

0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 2>it does not control me like it used to.

0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:56.040
<v Speaker 1>Like that sounds absolutely phenomenal what you've done, Laura. That

0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:59.720
<v Speaker 1>is such a huge change to achieve. I don't know you,

0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 1>but I've feel proud, you.

0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:02.320
<v Speaker 2>Know, thank you. It's very kind.

0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:06.920
<v Speaker 1>How then do you know when enough is enough? At work?

0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.080
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, you're like this amazing mascot for

0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:13.480
<v Speaker 1>well being. You know, that's that's who you are, that's

0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 1>what kick is. Yet you're a business owner, you're a CEO,

0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.920
<v Speaker 1>you do obviously have an amazing work ethic, and you've

0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 1>got friends and family. How do you know then when

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:25.720
<v Speaker 1>enough is enough on a day to day or week

0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:27.160
<v Speaker 1>to week basis, well, I have.

0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.080
<v Speaker 2>To start by saying sometimes I don't and this is

0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.400
<v Speaker 2>something I'm absolutely working through. So I do not have

0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.320
<v Speaker 2>this down pattern perfect. But for me, what I have

0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.000
<v Speaker 2>learned is when I don't stop and I don't have

0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.400
<v Speaker 2>anything outside of work, first of all, like the impact

0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:43.760
<v Speaker 2>that that then puts me back in a fear driven

0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.960
<v Speaker 2>mindset because one hundred and ten percent of my focus

0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.160
<v Speaker 2>is on work. And so my full fulfillment in my

0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.080
<v Speaker 2>life is based on what happens, you know, with kick

0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:55.520
<v Speaker 2>and running a business, like the one thing that is

0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.640
<v Speaker 2>guaranteed is that stuff's going to go wrong, Like that's

0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 2>the one thing. There's something else is guaranteed. There's gonna

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:01.080
<v Speaker 2>there's gon to be things that you're going to come

0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.680
<v Speaker 2>up against that you maybe have never sold before or

0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.920
<v Speaker 2>are really really going to challenge you. Like that is guaranteed,

0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.000
<v Speaker 2>right as we know in anyone that's a business owner

0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.320
<v Speaker 2>will also know that. And so because of that, if

0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.040
<v Speaker 2>I have all of my eggs in the basket of work,

0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I am them operating knowing that I have to keep

0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:20.080
<v Speaker 2>going and going and going, because this is the only

0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:22.400
<v Speaker 2>way I'm going to get fulfillment and if something goes wrong,

0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 2>controlling your emotional reaction within yourself and they're not going

0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.520
<v Speaker 2>down a path of for me, really getting deep in

0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.200
<v Speaker 2>that self doubt mindset, but also a shame mindset in

0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 2>that you know something might go wrong not go the

0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.240
<v Speaker 2>way that I wanted it to. I now am much

0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.240
<v Speaker 2>better at reframing into you know, this didn't go the

0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:45.600
<v Speaker 2>way I wanted it to. Here's my learnings. I'm moving

0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.840
<v Speaker 2>on instead of saying I am stupid, or I am dumb,

0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 2>or I'm not good enough, because what happens when you're

0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:53.960
<v Speaker 2>in that mindset or I have found, is that it

0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.160
<v Speaker 2>is so hard to get out of it. And once

0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.800
<v Speaker 2>you spiral it might start in one element of your

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.760
<v Speaker 2>your work or your job, it will spread into every

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.120
<v Speaker 2>element of your life and less you and your work,

0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.040
<v Speaker 2>and then it will start to spread out psy cancer

0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.159
<v Speaker 2>unless you take control of it. And so for me,

0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.200
<v Speaker 2>I know that if I have all of my eggs

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.160
<v Speaker 2>in the basket of work and I work every single

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:16.480
<v Speaker 2>day and don't take any breaks, that's kind of where

0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.400
<v Speaker 2>I will be end up. And that's not the best

0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 2>thing for me, for the company, for anyone that I

0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.000
<v Speaker 2>work with, because sometimes, like you know, back this has

0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:27.880
<v Speaker 2>not happened for a long time, but I've had spirals

0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.600
<v Speaker 2>that have lasted like six seven months, and that is

0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.399
<v Speaker 2>so much time to lose because when you don't believe

0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:35.880
<v Speaker 2>in yourself and you're trying to move a company forward,

0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.080
<v Speaker 2>it's very, very, very difficult. And so that's been one

0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.320
<v Speaker 2>of the biggest things. And then the other thing is

0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.120
<v Speaker 2>is understanding. So having things outside of work is very important,

0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:49.200
<v Speaker 2>but then understanding as well. If I push push, push,

0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:50.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to be able to show up as

0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:53.640
<v Speaker 2>my best self the next day. My brain doesn't work

0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.800
<v Speaker 2>as well. I get brain fog. I find it really

0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:57.840
<v Speaker 2>hard to focus on deep work. I find it really

0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:00.520
<v Speaker 2>hard to actually step back and actually work out what

0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.560
<v Speaker 2>am I working on that's impactful, because you get so

0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.159
<v Speaker 2>stuck in the weeds and just on this kind of

0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.880
<v Speaker 2>wheel of got to keep going, got to keep going,

0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:13.800
<v Speaker 2>and then you're actually again not making impact. That's what's important, right,

0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.199
<v Speaker 2>and so it's stepping back and being able to do that.

0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:19.080
<v Speaker 2>But it's definitely something like, as I say this, I

0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:20.640
<v Speaker 2>don't always get it right.

0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.880
<v Speaker 1>When you recognize that you're in a spiral. What has

0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.360
<v Speaker 1>worked for you in the past in terms of breaking

0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:31.880
<v Speaker 1>out of that, either quickly or slowly.

0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:34.879
<v Speaker 2>I think it's understanding shame has been one of the

0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.840
<v Speaker 2>biggest things Brene Brown. I reference her so much. She's

0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.080
<v Speaker 2>just incredible. Her work is for me personally, has made

0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.720
<v Speaker 2>such an impact. She has a book. It's got a

0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.639
<v Speaker 2>red cover. It's essentially all about different emotions and the

0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.480
<v Speaker 2>definitions Atlas of the Heart, so you know all of them.

0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:53.200
<v Speaker 2>Amazing that I highly recommend that book to anyone that's

0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:57.640
<v Speaker 2>listening because the way she defines and kind of speaks

0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:01.119
<v Speaker 2>through shame really helped me understand what it is. And

0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.199
<v Speaker 2>I think when you understand what it is, it is

0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.359
<v Speaker 2>easier to call it out when it's happening. And so

0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.240
<v Speaker 2>what I sometimes I don't do this, but what I

0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:11.119
<v Speaker 2>try to do and what I find really works, is

0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:16.280
<v Speaker 2>trying to step out from the situation and separate from myself,

0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Like the way I'm talking to myself that I'm not

0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:20.400
<v Speaker 2>good enough, because I know how it feels. And when

0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.280
<v Speaker 2>I start feeling that way, I'm like, Okay, hang on,

0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.000
<v Speaker 2>I need to look like what's going on in my brain?

0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.199
<v Speaker 2>What's going on in my mind, and I'm able to

0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.520
<v Speaker 2>take those thoughts and almost like visualize separating them from

0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.000
<v Speaker 2>myself and then identifying that, Okay, I have not all

0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:38.400
<v Speaker 2>of a sudden lost my entire brain capacity forgotten how

0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:40.720
<v Speaker 2>to do my job and have just become, you know,

0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:42.680
<v Speaker 2>not be able to do anything that has not happened. Now,

0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:44.600
<v Speaker 2>while that's what I'm telling myself in my head, that

0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:48.399
<v Speaker 2>has not happened, this is actually shame and I need

0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.680
<v Speaker 2>to get out of this, and then I will reframe

0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:52.600
<v Speaker 2>it away from you know, I am not good enough

0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:55.640
<v Speaker 2>to This didn't go the way that I wanted. Here's

0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.920
<v Speaker 2>my learnings. I'm going to move forward. As I said,

0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.600
<v Speaker 2>it's easier said than done, and sometimes it does take

0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 2>a few days to be able to kind of separate that.

0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.280
<v Speaker 2>But it's kind it's coming back to focusing on the present,

0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 2>because when you're doing that, you're just caught up in

0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, what's happened in the past, and you're making

0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.840
<v Speaker 2>stories up in your head. Trying to come back and

0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 2>cent to yourself and come back to the present and

0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.480
<v Speaker 2>taking those thoughts out from that and working through them.

0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:22.760
<v Speaker 1>How do you know when you're in a spiral like

0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.480
<v Speaker 1>can you think of a time when I don't know

0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:26.919
<v Speaker 1>you were last in it, or when it was particularly

0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:27.919
<v Speaker 1>hard to get out of.

0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.280
<v Speaker 2>How do you know how it feels in my body?

0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:35.639
<v Speaker 2>I feel my chest is tight, I feel sad, and

0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.880
<v Speaker 2>I feel like really demotivated and maybe not depressed per se,

0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.119
<v Speaker 2>but just really down. And I know that that's not

0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.320
<v Speaker 2>how I usually feel. Like our body tells us. We know,

0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.119
<v Speaker 2>like how you feel is everything, And that's something that

0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.960
<v Speaker 2>in terms of going back to the advice that Jennie

0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:53.640
<v Speaker 2>has shared for me and what I've learned the most

0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.439
<v Speaker 2>from her, like that's one of the biggest things, is

0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:57.520
<v Speaker 2>going back to how do you feel? Like it's one

0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.880
<v Speaker 2>of the questions that comes up out of almost anything

0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.720
<v Speaker 2>that you're kind of working through, and so I know

0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.040
<v Speaker 2>what that feeling is and I can identify that, and

0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:08.960
<v Speaker 2>then it's yet working out how to get out of it.

0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:12.359
<v Speaker 1>You spoke about not having all the balls in the

0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 1>one basket in the work basket. What actions do you

0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.679
<v Speaker 1>take where you feel like it is leaning that way? Like,

0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.000
<v Speaker 1>what are the steps that you've taken in the past

0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:25.200
<v Speaker 1>to be more balanced? And I guess reduce the chance

0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.840
<v Speaker 1>of burnout and being in one of these virals.

0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:30.080
<v Speaker 2>At first, it's acknowledging that all of my eggs are

0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:32.520
<v Speaker 2>in the work basket, which I'm in. Again, for anyone listening,

0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.040
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty hard to do that, and especially when sometimes

0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.320
<v Speaker 2>I think we get in this almost marta mindset of

0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:39.480
<v Speaker 2>I have to all my eggs have to be in

0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.920
<v Speaker 2>this basket? Do they? Why are you just telling yourself

0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.520
<v Speaker 2>that probably that's usually what the answer is, But I

0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.280
<v Speaker 2>think we have to do this, well why do you?

0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Probably not, You're just in this spiral, And so I

0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:54.080
<v Speaker 2>kind of step back and I look at, okay, what

0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:56.359
<v Speaker 2>and especially for me as well, like one of my

0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:01.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of hobbies per se is running, but running is

0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.440
<v Speaker 2>also a big part of my work and making content,

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.520
<v Speaker 2>and so I've had to also be quite honest with

0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:08.600
<v Speaker 2>myself because sometimes I'm like, oh, no, I've got my running,

0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.439
<v Speaker 2>but it's like, well, no, running is also technically a

0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:13.760
<v Speaker 2>part of my work because you know, we've got the

0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:16.560
<v Speaker 2>Kick growing program and Kick and all the content that

0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:18.879
<v Speaker 2>I create out of that. So I step back and

0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:20.720
<v Speaker 2>I think, Okay, well, what am I doing outside of

0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:22.840
<v Speaker 2>work to fill my cut back up? And one of

0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:25.920
<v Speaker 2>the things I often find will kind of go off

0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:27.679
<v Speaker 2>and I don't know if this is the same for you,

0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:30.439
<v Speaker 2>that I will kind of first just put in the

0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.040
<v Speaker 2>bin per se is social time because I think I

0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:36.640
<v Speaker 2>don't have time to do that. And you also sometimes

0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:40.160
<v Speaker 2>when you feel exhausted, maybe because of work or whatever,

0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:41.800
<v Speaker 2>it might be the last thing you want to do

0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:43.840
<v Speaker 2>is go out for dinner or go and speak to

0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:45.840
<v Speaker 2>more people because you just want to be by yourself.

0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:48.479
<v Speaker 2>But you actually need to get out and do that.

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.760
<v Speaker 2>And for me, it's been really really acknowledging that that

0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:55.440
<v Speaker 2>social time that fills my cup like that is recharging.

0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.639
<v Speaker 2>Even though it's with people and solo time is very important,

0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:02.000
<v Speaker 2>connection is also a way to fill like up that

0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:03.879
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I think when we get caught up in our

0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:05.879
<v Speaker 2>own heads, we just put it off and cancel it

0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.000
<v Speaker 2>because we don't think that we can show up. But

0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:11.400
<v Speaker 2>that's actually what helps well for me recharge my batteries.

0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:13.119
<v Speaker 2>So it's looking at, Okay, what am I doing, and

0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:15.520
<v Speaker 2>it's what am I spending time on. It Something that

0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:17.720
<v Speaker 2>I always love to think about when it comes to

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.399
<v Speaker 2>hobbies or just things that can take my mind off

0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:24.240
<v Speaker 2>just the grind of the day, is what have I

0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:26.760
<v Speaker 2>done lately? Where I didn't look at the time, and

0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:30.720
<v Speaker 2>time just passed by and I didn't even realize, and

0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:32.199
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't thinking about like, oh, I need to be

0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:34.240
<v Speaker 2>productive after this, or you know, I'm only going to

0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:36.399
<v Speaker 2>do this for an hour. I didn't even notice, and

0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:38.920
<v Speaker 2>the day passed. I mean, I don't do a lot

0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:41.160
<v Speaker 2>of it, but when I've done pottery before, that's something

0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:43.639
<v Speaker 2>that happens. When I spend time with kids, like often,

0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 2>that's also what happens painting and reading, and so I

0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:50.840
<v Speaker 2>try to get those things back in my life. But

0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.040
<v Speaker 2>it's important to acknowledge as well that sometimes there are

0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:57.680
<v Speaker 2>periods where work will take a lot from you. And

0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.240
<v Speaker 2>it's accepting that and honoring that, because I think when

0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:02.399
<v Speaker 2>we try and fight it it can just make it worse.

0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:05.520
<v Speaker 2>But just trying to make sure we're really honest with ourselves.

0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:07.439
<v Speaker 2>If we say I don't have time to do anything

0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:11.359
<v Speaker 2>for myself, it's really asking like why and if you

0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:15.400
<v Speaker 2>can trying to do something otherwise you won't show up

0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:18.399
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent when you get to work. Anyway, we will.

0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:21.399
<v Speaker 1>Be back with Laura soon, and when we return, Laura

0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:24.920
<v Speaker 1>shares the rituals and habits that keep her from overloading

0:24:25.000 --> 0:24:28.439
<v Speaker 1>on work, why it's crucial to avoid responding from an

0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:31.920
<v Speaker 1>emotional state, and her top tip for starting the week

0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:39.200
<v Speaker 1>strong to ensure you actually get things done. If you're

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:41.960
<v Speaker 1>looking for more tips to improve the way you work

0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:45.400
<v Speaker 1>can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains

0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:48.600
<v Speaker 1>tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can

0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:52.560
<v Speaker 1>sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha

0:24:52.920 --> 0:25:02.679
<v Speaker 1>dot com. I am curious as to how then you

0:25:02.760 --> 0:25:05.600
<v Speaker 1>stay disciplined with making sure that you do have time

0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:10.840
<v Speaker 1>for these other non work activities, because I think you

0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:13.399
<v Speaker 1>know and I say this as someone who I think

0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:15.760
<v Speaker 1>could do with working less hours. It's kind of it's

0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:17.719
<v Speaker 1>easy to say and it's easy to know, but then

0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:20.040
<v Speaker 1>it's hard to do. And so I can share with

0:25:20.080 --> 0:25:22.000
<v Speaker 1>you something that I have found quite useful because I

0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:25.640
<v Speaker 1>agree with social connection. It's such an energizer. And I've

0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:28.040
<v Speaker 1>got my family. I've got my beautiful daughter, a beautiful partner,

0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:31.119
<v Speaker 1>and they're amazing, but friends are so important. I'm an

0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:33.400
<v Speaker 1>only child, and so my friends are like family. And

0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:36.199
<v Speaker 1>I have a little ritual that I generally do it

0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:39.679
<v Speaker 1>on Mondays where I will just send a bunch of

0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:42.880
<v Speaker 1>messages to my friends and get social catch ups in

0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:45.399
<v Speaker 1>the diary, and I know that if I've got at

0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:48.159
<v Speaker 1>least one or two friend catch ups that might be

0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:50.280
<v Speaker 1>a walk, or it might be a meal or something else,

0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:54.600
<v Speaker 1>then that's a good week. I'm filling my social cup.

0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:58.520
<v Speaker 1>For you, Like, do you have any rituals or kind

0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:02.080
<v Speaker 1>of little hacks like that almost keep you honest away

0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:03.720
<v Speaker 1>from just overleading on work.

0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:06.199
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's such a good thing to do, especially at

0:26:06.240 --> 0:26:07.520
<v Speaker 2>the start of the week. I think for me, it's

0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:10.200
<v Speaker 2>scheduling in at the start of the week, Like that's

0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:12.399
<v Speaker 2>the biggest hack that we can do for ourselves, because

0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:14.960
<v Speaker 2>if you don't, you never set yourself up for success,

0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:18.199
<v Speaker 2>because then you don't have any boundaries kind of in

0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:20.840
<v Speaker 2>your day. You haven't set your routine up, and then

0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:22.960
<v Speaker 2>you will every time. I mean, it's the same thing

0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:26.840
<v Speaker 2>with moving your body, right. If you don't prepare, if

0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:28.720
<v Speaker 2>you wake up in the morning and you don't know

0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:30.959
<v Speaker 2>what workout you're going to do, you haven't got your

0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:34.359
<v Speaker 2>clothes out, you haven't really allowed yourself enough time, and

0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:36.639
<v Speaker 2>you haven't thought through it and planned. It is so

0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:39.119
<v Speaker 2>easy to be like, oh it's too hard, I'm just

0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:40.800
<v Speaker 2>going to keep sleeping or I'm just going to hit

0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 2>to work early or whatever it might be. And it's

0:26:42.840 --> 0:26:46.359
<v Speaker 2>the same thing right with everything with planning. So for

0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 2>me with movement, it's making sure I've worked out where

0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:52.640
<v Speaker 2>that's going to fit in my week, because if I haven't,

0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:54.919
<v Speaker 2>the week will just override it. And doing that at

0:26:54.960 --> 0:26:56.760
<v Speaker 2>the start of the week. And then also the social thing.

0:26:56.800 --> 0:26:59.240
<v Speaker 2>I try and make sure I have one kind of

0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:01.840
<v Speaker 2>social connection thing during the week and then one on

0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:05.320
<v Speaker 2>the weekend as well. And it's making the effort to

0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.920
<v Speaker 2>put that in right and sometimes I know and I can. Again,

0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:10.439
<v Speaker 2>it comes back to how I feel in my body,

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:13.480
<v Speaker 2>like when I start feeling down and tired and that

0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:16.080
<v Speaker 2>feeling like close to burnout. I look at a hang on.

0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:18.280
<v Speaker 2>If I look back at the past month or whatever,

0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:20.840
<v Speaker 2>I haven't done the things that I know can help

0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:23.600
<v Speaker 2>me work through this. So I don't always do it,

0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:24.920
<v Speaker 2>but that's a really good hack.

0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:26.919
<v Speaker 1>I want to pick up on what you said before

0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:30.119
<v Speaker 1>about Sydney, where you have to go to Sydney, No,

0:27:30.280 --> 0:27:32.359
<v Speaker 1>you get to go to Sydney. Tell me about that.

0:27:33.440 --> 0:27:36.919
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I mean that's perspective. Is everything right? And I

0:27:37.000 --> 0:27:40.679
<v Speaker 2>think when we get caught up in the busyness of like,

0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:43.160
<v Speaker 2>how many times do you ask someone how they're going

0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:46.359
<v Speaker 2>and they say busy? And I really try not to

0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:50.840
<v Speaker 2>do that because I like focusing on perspective and then

0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:55.320
<v Speaker 2>coming back to gratitude. When I focus on gratitude, I'm

0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:57.760
<v Speaker 2>able to be so much more present, and I'm just

0:27:57.840 --> 0:28:01.520
<v Speaker 2>able to show up in such a better way than

0:28:01.520 --> 0:28:03.760
<v Speaker 2>I do when I think, you know, the world is

0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:06.720
<v Speaker 2>happening to me, instead of being like, no, I'm happening

0:28:06.720 --> 0:28:08.680
<v Speaker 2>to the world. Like we're in control of a lot

0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:11.720
<v Speaker 2>more than we think, and so so often we think, oh,

0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:13.199
<v Speaker 2>I have to go to this meeting, I have to

0:28:13.200 --> 0:28:15.840
<v Speaker 2>go to work today, I have to go to Sydney,

0:28:16.040 --> 0:28:18.479
<v Speaker 2>and it's reframing that to no, I get to go

0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:21.679
<v Speaker 2>to Sydney, and yes, you know, flying in and out

0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:24.200
<v Speaker 2>in a day might be tiring, but what an amazing

0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:26.720
<v Speaker 2>opportunity to be able to go and do whatever I'm

0:28:26.720 --> 0:28:29.159
<v Speaker 2>doing there. And then I think, Okay, well, it's pretty

0:28:29.160 --> 0:28:32.399
<v Speaker 2>awesome that someone you know cares about me enough to

0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:34.760
<v Speaker 2>want me to go to Sydney and meet them. Because

0:28:34.800 --> 0:28:37.480
<v Speaker 2>then when I go, I'm not going in this headspace

0:28:37.520 --> 0:28:40.720
<v Speaker 2>of I don't want to be here. I'm exhausted, I'm tired,

0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:42.840
<v Speaker 2>because that's going to impact the entire day. I'm going

0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:44.600
<v Speaker 2>to have a horrible experience one million percent.

0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:47.720
<v Speaker 1>I want to ask you about something you You wrote

0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:50.800
<v Speaker 1>this really great post on LinkedIn, which I think it

0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:53.400
<v Speaker 1>was something like ten things I now know to be

0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:56.320
<v Speaker 1>true as a CEO, something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and

0:28:57.040 --> 0:28:58.880
<v Speaker 1>one of the things you wrote. I'll read it out

0:28:58.960 --> 0:29:01.480
<v Speaker 1>because I really loved it, and I'm curious as to

0:29:01.560 --> 0:29:04.400
<v Speaker 1>how how you apply this day to day. You said,

0:29:04.480 --> 0:29:06.960
<v Speaker 1>responding in an emotional state is never a good idea.

0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:09.479
<v Speaker 1>Always take a moment, a few minutes, an hour a day,

0:29:09.520 --> 0:29:11.600
<v Speaker 1>depending on how you feel and the response within your body,

0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:14.040
<v Speaker 1>before you respond, Wait until you can get into a

0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:17.880
<v Speaker 1>win win mindset instead of you versus the other person mindset.

0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:19.200
<v Speaker 2>Can you tell me about that?

0:29:19.240 --> 0:29:20.800
<v Speaker 1>How did you learn that lesson? Oh?

0:29:21.160 --> 0:29:24.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I've learned it many, many, many times. I

0:29:24.640 --> 0:29:28.800
<v Speaker 2>think when things happen, it might be that I don't know,

0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:30.840
<v Speaker 2>someone responded to something in a way that you didn't

0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:34.960
<v Speaker 2>feel was fair, or you're in a negotiation and it's

0:29:35.000 --> 0:29:37.800
<v Speaker 2>not feeling whatever it might be. Usually because it feels unfair, right,

0:29:37.840 --> 0:29:40.680
<v Speaker 2>That's why we respond in that way, and the first response,

0:29:40.760 --> 0:29:44.160
<v Speaker 2>like our automatic response is oh, I need to tell them,

0:29:44.360 --> 0:29:46.080
<v Speaker 2>like why they've made me feel this way and why

0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 2>they're wrong and etc. There is no way, like in

0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:52.720
<v Speaker 2>the art of negotiation or just generally approaching a conversation,

0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:55.040
<v Speaker 2>that if you approach a conversation like that, you were

0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:57.280
<v Speaker 2>going to get a good outcome because you're going in

0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:00.400
<v Speaker 2>wanting to I suppose you're not really wanting to the

0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:02.959
<v Speaker 2>other person, but that's kind of how you're approaching it,

0:30:03.400 --> 0:30:05.520
<v Speaker 2>because what you really want if you step back, and

0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:07.520
<v Speaker 2>it always comes back to this stow, which is again

0:30:07.560 --> 0:30:08.880
<v Speaker 2>in the moment. And that's why I kind of said

0:30:08.920 --> 0:30:11.160
<v Speaker 2>if it takes Amitted an hour or a day, because

0:30:11.160 --> 0:30:15.440
<v Speaker 2>sometimes things will trigger us into a really intense emotional response,

0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:19.840
<v Speaker 2>never ever, ever, ever respond in that time. It's I

0:30:19.880 --> 0:30:22.440
<v Speaker 2>don't know any time in my life when I've responded

0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:24.800
<v Speaker 2>in that while I'm in that feeling that it's been

0:30:24.920 --> 0:30:28.200
<v Speaker 2>a good outcome, or if we have got a good outcome,

0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:32.680
<v Speaker 2>it's just taken so long to get there. So step

0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:37.400
<v Speaker 2>out and think, Okay, yes, this person has really maybe

0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:39.960
<v Speaker 2>it's a contract negotiation, they've sent things through that have

0:30:40.040 --> 0:30:43.080
<v Speaker 2>really offended you, like they don't see my value, I'm

0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:46.400
<v Speaker 2>being taken advantage of, etcetera, etcetera. So it's stepping back

0:30:46.400 --> 0:30:49.120
<v Speaker 2>and being like, Okay, they have responded in that way,

0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:51.320
<v Speaker 2>so how I would have responded like that's but I'm

0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:53.600
<v Speaker 2>not going to take it personally. I'm going to come

0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:56.120
<v Speaker 2>back to what do I want to get out of

0:30:56.120 --> 0:30:58.320
<v Speaker 2>this and what do they want to get out of it?

0:30:58.400 --> 0:30:59.880
<v Speaker 2>And how can I respond in a way to pre

0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:03.800
<v Speaker 2>that's closer to that outcome? That will often help the

0:31:03.800 --> 0:31:05.840
<v Speaker 2>other person to bring down their guard, because if you

0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:08.240
<v Speaker 2>go in with your guard and you're in this attack mode,

0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:10.719
<v Speaker 2>they are going to straight get on the defense. And

0:31:10.840 --> 0:31:13.520
<v Speaker 2>negotiating with anyone or having a conversation when someone is

0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:16.240
<v Speaker 2>defensive is I mean, we've all been in those situations.

0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 2>It's really difficult. Is very very rare you will get

0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:20.240
<v Speaker 2>anywhere right.

0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:23.640
<v Speaker 1>How do you, I guess, almost take yourself down off

0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:26.480
<v Speaker 1>that cliff's edge when you're feeling like that. To calm

0:31:26.520 --> 0:31:28.920
<v Speaker 1>yourself down, whether it's over a period of hours or

0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:30.240
<v Speaker 1>a day or more, I.

0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Let myself feel the feelings. I think that's really important.

0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:35.320
<v Speaker 2>I think often we feel or we're told that we

0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:38.240
<v Speaker 2>have to. You know, we can't get upset, we can't

0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:41.480
<v Speaker 2>feel angry. They're fine. Like, you have to honor your emotions,

0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:44.360
<v Speaker 2>and often when something triggers you, it's just a I

0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:48.560
<v Speaker 2>suppose indication of something you really care about about yourself.

0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:52.520
<v Speaker 2>So I let myself feel the emotion, and depending on

0:31:52.560 --> 0:31:54.640
<v Speaker 2>how hard I'm feeling it, then I just I know

0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:56.720
<v Speaker 2>if I'm still like, if I'm still feeling that for

0:31:56.760 --> 0:31:58.600
<v Speaker 2>a long time, I know that I have to wait

0:31:58.600 --> 0:32:01.400
<v Speaker 2>a little bit longer. I find a good night's sleep

0:32:01.960 --> 0:32:04.760
<v Speaker 2>will help me get out of that emotional state. Most

0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:08.200
<v Speaker 2>of the time, but I wait until I don't feel

0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:11.440
<v Speaker 2>super super triggered and I suppose attacked by it and

0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:13.520
<v Speaker 2>emotional about it. I let those emotions. I honor them,

0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:15.240
<v Speaker 2>I let them pass there. Of course, there are times

0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:17.280
<v Speaker 2>when it doesn't pass, and that's when I actually be like, okay,

0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:19.440
<v Speaker 2>we need to move forward, Like coming back to again,

0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:22.680
<v Speaker 2>what is the outcome that they want? Like what's the

0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:25.280
<v Speaker 2>best outcome for them? What's the best outcome for me?

0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Like a win win mindset, and then like applying it

0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:31.040
<v Speaker 2>to that, and it is it's talking to people about it,

0:32:31.080 --> 0:32:33.480
<v Speaker 2>talking it through always helps because I think sometimes we

0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:35.600
<v Speaker 2>can get in our head and we start making up

0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:38.959
<v Speaker 2>all of these assumptions and all of these stories. You know,

0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:42.000
<v Speaker 2>we always say, like the truth is, there's one person's side,

0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the other person's side, and then there's the truth, right,

0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:46.640
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes too, what might happen? They might have triggered

0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:49.240
<v Speaker 2>something in you, and then you will then make up

0:32:49.280 --> 0:32:52.400
<v Speaker 2>this entire thing in your head that makes you really

0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:54.960
<v Speaker 2>angry and it keeps that emotion, But none of that

0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:57.600
<v Speaker 2>has happened. It's all made up in your head based

0:32:57.640 --> 0:33:00.840
<v Speaker 2>on how you think that personal respond or assumptions. So

0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:04.240
<v Speaker 2>it's just being able to realize that if that's lasting longer,

0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:08.360
<v Speaker 2>what that is, step out of yourself and then work

0:33:08.440 --> 0:33:10.800
<v Speaker 2>through what am I trying to get out of this?

0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:12.360
<v Speaker 2>And what do they want? But it is, as I said,

0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:15.200
<v Speaker 2>it is much harder said than done, isn't it.

0:33:16.040 --> 0:33:18.480
<v Speaker 1>I want to finish with asking. I feel like you're

0:33:18.480 --> 0:33:20.720
<v Speaker 1>the sort of person you know, given how well well

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:23.680
<v Speaker 1>read you are and how thoughtful you are, that you

0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:27.920
<v Speaker 1>know perhaps has different mantras or sayings or ways of

0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:31.000
<v Speaker 1>being that perhaps a friend of mine at different times

0:33:31.000 --> 0:33:33.960
<v Speaker 1>in your life. I'd love to know right now. What

0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:37.720
<v Speaker 1>is a mantra or a quote or something like that

0:33:37.720 --> 0:33:39.720
<v Speaker 1>that is serving you particularly well right now?

0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's such a good thing. I think for me,

0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:46.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm still working through as I said, like working on

0:33:46.440 --> 0:33:50.800
<v Speaker 2>confidence and removing self doubt is still something that I'm

0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:54.400
<v Speaker 2>working on. It's a journey. So the thing that right

0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:56.280
<v Speaker 2>now that I always come back to is that I

0:33:56.320 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 2>am good enough and I'm safe, and that really helps me.

0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Actually that I am safe part because I think I

0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:05.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know what it is, but it just makes me

0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.239
<v Speaker 2>feel calm when I say it and I believe it,

0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:09.759
<v Speaker 2>which is you know what we want to do when

0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:10.480
<v Speaker 2>we have a mantra.

0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Definitely, Laura, It's made such a joy having you on.

0:34:14.640 --> 0:34:18.239
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for sharing this last hour with me.

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:24.000
<v Speaker 1>I hope you love this chat with Laura as much

0:34:24.040 --> 0:34:27.480
<v Speaker 1>as I did, and I know some of it really

0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:31.319
<v Speaker 1>hit close to home, such as the need to be liked.

0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:34.680
<v Speaker 1>If you want to learn more about Laura, I highly

0:34:34.719 --> 0:34:39.240
<v Speaker 1>recommend checking out her podcast, Kickpod or the kick app.

0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:41.960
<v Speaker 1>I've put links to both of those in the show notes.

0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:45.800
<v Speaker 1>If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow

0:34:45.960 --> 0:34:49.440
<v Speaker 1>on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.

0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:52.480
<v Speaker 1>How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of

0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:54.719
<v Speaker 1>the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation