Speaker 1: Do you find yourself constantly trying to ensure that people
Speaker 1: like you, maybe bending over backwards to avoid giving bad
Speaker 1: news or make someone unhappy. But what if the extra
Speaker 1: reassurance and the fear of being too direct actually causing
Speaker 1: you more harm than good. Many of us battle with
Speaker 1: some degree of people pleasing in our personalities, and the
Speaker 1: negative consequences can appear both in our personal and professional lives.
Speaker 1: To dive into this topic, we are joined by Laura
Speaker 1: Henshaw to talk about how she realized that her need
Speaker 1: to be liked was affecting those working under her. Laura
Speaker 1: Henshaw is a dynamic force in the health and wellness
Speaker 1: industry as the co founder and CEO of the incredibly
Speaker 1: successful Kick app and community. She leads a mission to
Speaker 1: reshape how people perceive wellness and their relationship with themselves,
Speaker 1: and Laura is having a massive impact with the Kick
Speaker 1: app currently sitting at over two point five million users
Speaker 1: and reaching people in over one hundred and twenty countries.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we discussed the ways that your people
Speaker 1: pleasing could be holding you back, how Laura changed her
Speaker 1: people pleasing behavior, and how she broke her destructive habit
Speaker 1: of reading comments from all the trolls. Welcome to How
Speaker 1: I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for
Speaker 1: optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. In
Speaker 1: addition to her incredible success, Laura is a self confessed
Speaker 1: people pleaser, but she's done the work to improve in
Speaker 1: that area. In fact, she did that work with her coach,
Speaker 1: Jennie Martino, who helped her realize how her need to
Speaker 1: be liked was affecting her work.
Speaker 2: The biggest thing that comes to mind is when I
Speaker 2: met Janie. One of the biggest things holding me back
Speaker 2: in when I say reaching my full potential as a leader,
Speaker 2: I feel like we're always learning and growing, right, So
Speaker 2: I'm definitely not there yet, and I hope I never
Speaker 2: get there, because you want to keep growing and evolving.
Speaker 2: But something that was holding me back a lot was
Speaker 2: how much I cared about what people think or thought,
Speaker 2: and also my need to be liked by every single person.
Speaker 2: When you need to be liked by everyone that you're leading,
Speaker 2: if that's kind of something that and I didn't consciously
Speaker 2: put it as a KPI, but subconsciously that was number
Speaker 2: one before everything else, which isn't the best for anyone
Speaker 2: at all, because then you're leading at a lot of
Speaker 2: the time in fear because you don't want to let
Speaker 2: anyone down. You want people to like you. So giving
Speaker 2: feedback is incredibly difficult. Feedback is obviously incredibly important for
Speaker 2: people growing in their career, al so in being clear
Speaker 2: and where you actually want the business to go and
Speaker 2: taking control of it and executing the vision, the strategy, etc.
Speaker 2: But I was so stuck in thinking that that mattered.
Speaker 2: And I think for me, I have a lot of
Speaker 2: people pleasing tendencies, and I don't want to say that
Speaker 2: all women do not have that, and that's great, and
Speaker 2: I don't want anyone listening to think that, oh, because
Speaker 2: I'm a woman, I must be a people pleaser, because
Speaker 2: I don't think that's the case at all. But I
Speaker 2: think unfortunately maybe in gender stereotypical roles where more of
Speaker 2: the care is or expected to be, etc. And so
Speaker 2: sometimes it does come up. And so my people pleasing
Speaker 2: tendencies really leaned into that need to be liked, and
Speaker 2: so I've had to undo a lot of that, which
Speaker 2: Janey helped me work through, and I have just like
Speaker 2: the way that I'm able to lead now in comparison
Speaker 2: when I look back at that person, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: my goodness, it's crazy. Like I do identify still with
Speaker 2: with myself of you know, three or whatever years ago,
Speaker 2: two years ago, but I just feel so different, like
Speaker 2: I've been let free and being able to let that go.
Speaker 1: I feel like you've just described my twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: I want to know for you, though, Laura, if you
Speaker 1: think back over the last three years and this big
Speaker 1: shift that you've made, what are some of those practical
Speaker 1: things that you did, all those mindset shifts that you
Speaker 1: had to make that had the biggest difference.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's such a good question, and it's great that
Speaker 2: you've also been on the journey because I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people have and will relate to this. For me,
Speaker 2: and one of the questions Janie asked me was and
Speaker 2: we work through this in one of my I think
Speaker 2: it was almost my first session with Janey, which was
Speaker 2: why do you want to be liked? Like? Why is
Speaker 2: that important? And is that actually what is important to you?
Speaker 2: And what we came out to is, no, I don't.
Speaker 2: It's not really about being liked per se, but it's
Speaker 2: about being respected. And I think that was kind of
Speaker 2: rooted in a lot of stuff. For me. I know
Speaker 2: we might touch today on imposter syndrome and kind of
Speaker 2: being a young female leader. So because of where my
Speaker 2: career started was with social or part of it was
Speaker 2: social media, and so for a very long time, I
Speaker 2: felt that I wasn't taken seriously. Well I wasn't. Actually
Speaker 2: I can not just what I thought. I was not
Speaker 2: taken seriously by a lot of people that I worked with.
Speaker 1: How did you know for sure?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean there were times when I was in
Speaker 2: rooms with people that I worked with that would describe
Speaker 2: so often Steph and I as the marketing girls, and
Speaker 2: it's like, no, we built this brand, we run this business, etc.
Speaker 2: There's been multiple occasions where that has happened in different ways,
Speaker 2: and I think at that time, I felt like I
Speaker 2: just had to prove myself. And I think because of
Speaker 2: that kind of I've definitely worked through that and now
Speaker 2: I know that like that's on them. I don't have
Speaker 2: to prove myself to anyone. But that definitely was a
Speaker 2: big cause of why I then felt that I had
Speaker 2: to kind of lead that way. And so for me,
Speaker 2: it was kind of thinking about, Okay, I need to
Speaker 2: be respected, that's what it's important, and then it's unpacking. Okay,
Speaker 2: how do you get respect with your team? How do
Speaker 2: you get respect with the people around you by being
Speaker 2: a good leader and knowing that you can still lead
Speaker 2: with empathy, because that's very, very very important to me.
Speaker 2: But I think it was also the realization that it
Speaker 2: is impossible to be liked by everyone because no matter what,
Speaker 2: like I know that you know, in running a business
Speaker 2: and everyone that's listening that does most decisions you make,
Speaker 2: there is going to be someone that's not going to
Speaker 2: like the decision. It's very very rare we make decisions
Speaker 2: where everyone agrees on it and is going to like
Speaker 2: the outcome, right, especially when you're running a business. And
Speaker 2: so it was also that realization that I was, well,
Speaker 2: I'm setting myself up to fail because i can't actually
Speaker 2: achieve this and I'm not driving the business. And in
Speaker 2: my role as CEO of if I'm not driving the
Speaker 2: business for then I shouldn't be in the.
Speaker 1: Role how then, because I feel like one of the
Speaker 1: hardest areas where this plays out is when you have
Speaker 1: to have those tough conversations and I mean I hate
Speaker 1: calling them to have conversations. I try to think of
Speaker 1: them as important conversations as opposed to difficult conversations because
Speaker 1: it changes the mindset. But they're hard if you've got
Speaker 1: a high need to be liked and you are delivering
Speaker 1: news that someone else is going to find tough or
Speaker 1: confronting or hard to take on board. How did you
Speaker 1: change your approach to those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2: I think realizing that in going in to be liked.
Speaker 2: So there was one instance. I remember I delivered something
Speaker 2: to the team and Janie was there, and she said,
Speaker 2: because I had always thought like I have to do
Speaker 2: like a sandwich, I think this is something I don't
Speaker 2: actually got sandwich. I don't agree that I should be.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's the best way to approachings, but
Speaker 2: I used to. And the feedback I got was it
Speaker 2: was almost like I made a sandwich, but it was
Speaker 2: like with the thinnest slice of ham in the middle,
Speaker 2: which is what I had to deliver, and then it
Speaker 2: had like a hundred pieces of bread on both sides,
Speaker 2: so no one got the message no one's tasty because
Speaker 2: I put so stuff around it in the fear that
Speaker 2: of the thing I was delivering. What that then means
Speaker 2: is I think when you're delivering out of a place
Speaker 2: of fear. If you don't believe in what you're saying
Speaker 2: or feel that it's fair or whatever it might be,
Speaker 2: how the heck is your team going to find it
Speaker 2: also fair and believe in it back. So that's number
Speaker 2: one thing. But what I then was able to navigate
Speaker 2: through time was realizing the biggest I think one of
Speaker 2: the biggest realizations for me was feedback is a kindness.
Speaker 2: Being clear is kind That's the biggest thing. And there's
Speaker 2: a book I can't remember the name of it. I
Speaker 2: will find it once I finish this pod and I
Speaker 2: can send it through to put in the show notes.
Speaker 2: But it's fantastic And at the start of it there's
Speaker 2: a chapter around an employee that never gets feedback. They're
Speaker 2: the really likable person in the office. They contribute to
Speaker 2: culture Radical candor Yes, radical Canda, Yes Yeah. Who's the
Speaker 2: author is it Kim Scott? Yes? Kim Scott, Radical Candor.
Speaker 2: That first chapter made I recommend anyone that is struggling
Speaker 2: with this right now to read that. It made such
Speaker 2: a bigin for me because this person in this book
Speaker 2: wasn't giving any given any feedback because everyone was trying
Speaker 2: to avoid it because they liked them and they thought
Speaker 2: that would be best for them. And then when they
Speaker 2: were let go and they said, why didn't anyone tell me?
Speaker 2: It's like stepping back and actually thinking about that, why
Speaker 2: didn't anyone tell you? Because they were trying to protect you?
Speaker 2: But in trying to protect you and be likable, you know,
Speaker 2: to them, you then set them up to fail in
Speaker 2: their role. And if people are coming to work with you,
Speaker 2: I think I always feel like Kick, we're so lucky
Speaker 2: to have the team that we have, and for people
Speaker 2: to take time within their career path at Kick, you know,
Speaker 2: and for us to be part of their journey is
Speaker 2: a really special thing, and it's very important that we
Speaker 2: offer career growth and development for those people. But if
Speaker 2: we're not giving feedback on how they can improve or
Speaker 2: being clear with our expectations, that's not the best for
Speaker 2: them and it's also not the best for the business.
Speaker 2: And that's where another really really big lesson from Janney
Speaker 2: has come in on communication and the power of being
Speaker 2: clear that you can do that with empathy, and that's
Speaker 2: been a huge, huge lesson for me as well. And
Speaker 2: you just as I said, like that sandwich with the
Speaker 2: hundred slices of bread on each side. It doesn't help anyone.
Speaker 2: And you say it is hard. You walk into the room,
Speaker 2: you know you're having a hard conversation. You just need
Speaker 2: to start it. Once you're in the conversation, it's absolutely fine.
Speaker 2: It's kind of just that start part where you feel uncomfortable,
Speaker 2: but you're also assuming what the other person is going
Speaker 2: to do or how they're going to react. You don't know,
Speaker 2: and so I think we need to also give people
Speaker 2: the benefit of the doubt in that situation that though
Speaker 2: they might be aligned with this or they might take
Speaker 2: this on board, it's also their choice if they take
Speaker 2: it on board or not right, but it is as
Speaker 2: leaders it is our responsibility to share that with them.
Speaker 1: I want to ask in terms of this need to
Speaker 1: be liked and how you've kind of shifted that into
Speaker 1: you know, it's a need to be respected. I'm reminded
Speaker 1: of I thought it was such a powerful interview that
Speaker 1: you gave on the Imperfect I want to say that
Speaker 1: was late twenty twenty three maybe, but during that interview
Speaker 1: you spoke about how you read the comments online, all
Speaker 1: of them, and Steph, your business partner and best friend doesn't,
Speaker 1: and I remember being really surprised but curious. Has your
Speaker 1: behavior changed in light of, I guess, trying to manage
Speaker 1: your people pleasing ways? Or do you still do that? Oh?
Speaker 2: Great question. I'm very proud to say that I don't
Speaker 2: do that anymore.
Speaker 1: How did you stop?
Speaker 2: I mean, I working through all of this, and I
Speaker 2: suppose it's kind of separate to my leadership journey per se,
Speaker 2: but it'll write it it all comes together and links in.
Speaker 2: I tried to and have been on a journey to
Speaker 2: stop caring about what people I think. And Brene Brown
Speaker 2: talks about this a lot, and it's one of my
Speaker 2: favorite pieces of work that she has done when she
Speaker 2: talks about people in the arena and if someone is
Speaker 2: not in the arena with you, getting their butt kicked
Speaker 2: like their opinion. I've definitely put to this, But essentially
Speaker 2: it's like their opinion doesn't matter because they're up sitting
Speaker 2: just watching and observing. And I think what I was
Speaker 2: doing was thinking that. For me, it comes down to
Speaker 2: growing up. Something that I valued myself on a lot
Speaker 2: was being a hard worker. And so that's something that
Speaker 2: I'm trying to undo as an adult now because I
Speaker 2: think often what I do is I hide behind the
Speaker 2: fact that I work hard, because then I don't have
Speaker 2: to think about, well, hang on, what value do I
Speaker 2: add here? It's like, well, I'm a hard worker. That's
Speaker 2: the value that I add. But if I strip that
Speaker 2: back and I don't do that, which can lead to
Speaker 2: burnout and you can't work, you know, sixteen hours a
Speaker 2: day for the rest of your life every single day.
Speaker 2: It's too much, you know, ebbs and flows, and sometimes
Speaker 2: I'll be busy weeks and less busy weeks. But I
Speaker 2: have had to strip that back, and I think a
Speaker 2: part of that was there's a book called Burnout. It's fantastic.
Speaker 2: There's one page that's about the whip and I just
Speaker 2: related to it so much when I read it, and
Speaker 2: essentially what they talk about is and it's mainly aimed
Speaker 2: at women. This book. For a lot of people, we
Speaker 2: feel that we have to seek out this, like I
Speaker 2: was these trolling comments because the reason I was seeking
Speaker 2: them out is because I feel like I have to
Speaker 2: continue working hard, I have to continue improving, and so
Speaker 2: if I would read it, it was almost this fuel
Speaker 2: of the fire of Okay, I'm not good enough yet,
Speaker 2: I have to keep. In the book, the way they
Speaker 2: talk about it is it's a whip. I have to
Speaker 2: keep whipping myself because then if you pull back and
Speaker 2: what they talk about in the book, and you look
Speaker 2: at where you've what you've built, or how you in
Speaker 2: your career, where you've got to, and you know with
Speaker 2: what we've built with Kick, I look back and I think, Okay,
Speaker 2: the reason I have got here is because of the whip.
Speaker 2: So if I put the whip down and I stop
Speaker 2: fueling myself through all of these kind of horrible trolling
Speaker 2: comments online, constantly trying to be better and better and better,
Speaker 2: I won't have any drive and therefore I won't be
Speaker 2: able to continue to grow. Then it's been working through
Speaker 2: like that. Whip is not the reason that I have
Speaker 2: got to where I am today and unpacking that, but
Speaker 2: it has been really really hard to do that. And
Speaker 2: it also depends, like I feel like our confidence ebbs
Speaker 2: and flows, and I know when you think of like
Speaker 2: the most kind of corny Pinterest quote, it's like confidence
Speaker 2: is not a destination. It's a journey. I know, and
Speaker 2: I can see like the clouds around it. But it's true, right,
Speaker 2: you can never ever ever stop working on yourself, and
Speaker 2: so sometimes I will go through stages where I feel
Speaker 2: tempted to go and look at those comments and take
Speaker 2: them on board. But I have done a lot of
Speaker 2: work on myself to now have so many tools to
Speaker 2: not go and do that and know that how hard
Speaker 2: I work has nothing to do with how worthy I
Speaker 2: am as a person, and that I'm you know, capable
Speaker 2: of deserving of things. That's been really hard to work through,
Speaker 2: but that has been so important in truly believing like
Speaker 2: within myself to be able to kind of get through
Speaker 2: that stuff. And I definitely still have self doubt, but
Speaker 2: it does not control me like it used to.
Speaker 1: Like that sounds absolutely phenomenal what you've done, Laura. That
Speaker 1: is such a huge change to achieve. I don't know you,
Speaker 1: but I've feel proud, you.
Speaker 2: Know, thank you. It's very kind.
Speaker 1: How then do you know when enough is enough? At work?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you're like this amazing mascot for
Speaker 1: well being. You know, that's that's who you are, that's
Speaker 1: what kick is. Yet you're a business owner, you're a CEO,
Speaker 1: you do obviously have an amazing work ethic, and you've
Speaker 1: got friends and family. How do you know then when
Speaker 1: enough is enough on a day to day or week
Speaker 1: to week basis, well, I have.
Speaker 2: To start by saying sometimes I don't and this is
Speaker 2: something I'm absolutely working through. So I do not have
Speaker 2: this down pattern perfect. But for me, what I have
Speaker 2: learned is when I don't stop and I don't have
Speaker 2: anything outside of work, first of all, like the impact
Speaker 2: that that then puts me back in a fear driven
Speaker 2: mindset because one hundred and ten percent of my focus
Speaker 2: is on work. And so my full fulfillment in my
Speaker 2: life is based on what happens, you know, with kick
Speaker 2: and running a business, like the one thing that is
Speaker 2: guaranteed is that stuff's going to go wrong, Like that's
Speaker 2: the one thing. There's something else is guaranteed. There's gonna
Speaker 2: there's gon to be things that you're going to come
Speaker 2: up against that you maybe have never sold before or
Speaker 2: are really really going to challenge you. Like that is guaranteed,
Speaker 2: right as we know in anyone that's a business owner
Speaker 2: will also know that. And so because of that, if
Speaker 2: I have all of my eggs in the basket of work,
Speaker 2: I am them operating knowing that I have to keep
Speaker 2: going and going and going, because this is the only
Speaker 2: way I'm going to get fulfillment and if something goes wrong,
Speaker 2: controlling your emotional reaction within yourself and they're not going
Speaker 2: down a path of for me, really getting deep in
Speaker 2: that self doubt mindset, but also a shame mindset in
Speaker 2: that you know something might go wrong not go the
Speaker 2: way that I wanted it to. I now am much
Speaker 2: better at reframing into you know, this didn't go the
Speaker 2: way I wanted it to. Here's my learnings. I'm moving
Speaker 2: on instead of saying I am stupid, or I am dumb,
Speaker 2: or I'm not good enough, because what happens when you're
Speaker 2: in that mindset or I have found, is that it
Speaker 2: is so hard to get out of it. And once
Speaker 2: you spiral it might start in one element of your
Speaker 2: your work or your job, it will spread into every
Speaker 2: element of your life and less you and your work,
Speaker 2: and then it will start to spread out psy cancer
Speaker 2: unless you take control of it. And so for me,
Speaker 2: I know that if I have all of my eggs
Speaker 2: in the basket of work and I work every single
Speaker 2: day and don't take any breaks, that's kind of where
Speaker 2: I will be end up. And that's not the best
Speaker 2: thing for me, for the company, for anyone that I
Speaker 2: work with, because sometimes, like you know, back this has
Speaker 2: not happened for a long time, but I've had spirals
Speaker 2: that have lasted like six seven months, and that is
Speaker 2: so much time to lose because when you don't believe
Speaker 2: in yourself and you're trying to move a company forward,
Speaker 2: it's very, very, very difficult. And so that's been one
Speaker 2: of the biggest things. And then the other thing is
Speaker 2: is understanding. So having things outside of work is very important,
Speaker 2: but then understanding as well. If I push push, push,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to show up as
Speaker 2: my best self the next day. My brain doesn't work
Speaker 2: as well. I get brain fog. I find it really
Speaker 2: hard to focus on deep work. I find it really
Speaker 2: hard to actually step back and actually work out what
Speaker 2: am I working on that's impactful, because you get so
Speaker 2: stuck in the weeds and just on this kind of
Speaker 2: wheel of got to keep going, got to keep going,
Speaker 2: and then you're actually again not making impact. That's what's important, right,
Speaker 2: and so it's stepping back and being able to do that.
Speaker 2: But it's definitely something like, as I say this, I
Speaker 2: don't always get it right.
Speaker 1: When you recognize that you're in a spiral. What has
Speaker 1: worked for you in the past in terms of breaking
Speaker 1: out of that, either quickly or slowly.
Speaker 2: I think it's understanding shame has been one of the
Speaker 2: biggest things Brene Brown. I reference her so much. She's
Speaker 2: just incredible. Her work is for me personally, has made
Speaker 2: such an impact. She has a book. It's got a
Speaker 2: red cover. It's essentially all about different emotions and the
Speaker 2: definitions Atlas of the Heart, so you know all of them.
Speaker 2: Amazing that I highly recommend that book to anyone that's
Speaker 2: listening because the way she defines and kind of speaks
Speaker 2: through shame really helped me understand what it is. And
Speaker 2: I think when you understand what it is, it is
Speaker 2: easier to call it out when it's happening. And so
Speaker 2: what I sometimes I don't do this, but what I
Speaker 2: try to do and what I find really works, is
Speaker 2: trying to step out from the situation and separate from myself,
Speaker 2: Like the way I'm talking to myself that I'm not
Speaker 2: good enough, because I know how it feels. And when
Speaker 2: I start feeling that way, I'm like, Okay, hang on,
Speaker 2: I need to look like what's going on in my brain?
Speaker 2: What's going on in my mind, and I'm able to
Speaker 2: take those thoughts and almost like visualize separating them from
Speaker 2: myself and then identifying that, Okay, I have not all
Speaker 2: of a sudden lost my entire brain capacity forgotten how
Speaker 2: to do my job and have just become, you know,
Speaker 2: not be able to do anything that has not happened. Now,
Speaker 2: while that's what I'm telling myself in my head, that
Speaker 2: has not happened, this is actually shame and I need
Speaker 2: to get out of this, and then I will reframe
Speaker 2: it away from you know, I am not good enough
Speaker 2: to This didn't go the way that I wanted. Here's
Speaker 2: my learnings. I'm going to move forward. As I said,
Speaker 2: it's easier said than done, and sometimes it does take
Speaker 2: a few days to be able to kind of separate that.
Speaker 2: But it's kind it's coming back to focusing on the present,
Speaker 2: because when you're doing that, you're just caught up in
Speaker 2: you know, what's happened in the past, and you're making
Speaker 2: stories up in your head. Trying to come back and
Speaker 2: cent to yourself and come back to the present and
Speaker 2: taking those thoughts out from that and working through them.
Speaker 1: How do you know when you're in a spiral like
Speaker 1: can you think of a time when I don't know
Speaker 1: you were last in it, or when it was particularly
Speaker 1: hard to get out of.
Speaker 2: How do you know how it feels in my body?
Speaker 2: I feel my chest is tight, I feel sad, and
Speaker 2: I feel like really demotivated and maybe not depressed per se,
Speaker 2: but just really down. And I know that that's not
Speaker 2: how I usually feel. Like our body tells us. We know,
Speaker 2: like how you feel is everything, And that's something that
Speaker 2: in terms of going back to the advice that Jennie
Speaker 2: has shared for me and what I've learned the most
Speaker 2: from her, like that's one of the biggest things, is
Speaker 2: going back to how do you feel? Like it's one
Speaker 2: of the questions that comes up out of almost anything
Speaker 2: that you're kind of working through, and so I know
Speaker 2: what that feeling is and I can identify that, and
Speaker 2: then it's yet working out how to get out of it.
Speaker 1: You spoke about not having all the balls in the
Speaker 1: one basket in the work basket. What actions do you
Speaker 1: take where you feel like it is leaning that way? Like,
Speaker 1: what are the steps that you've taken in the past
Speaker 1: to be more balanced? And I guess reduce the chance
Speaker 1: of burnout and being in one of these virals.
Speaker 2: At first, it's acknowledging that all of my eggs are
Speaker 2: in the work basket, which I'm in. Again, for anyone listening,
Speaker 2: it's pretty hard to do that, and especially when sometimes
Speaker 2: I think we get in this almost marta mindset of
Speaker 2: I have to all my eggs have to be in
Speaker 2: this basket? Do they? Why are you just telling yourself
Speaker 2: that probably that's usually what the answer is, But I
Speaker 2: think we have to do this, well why do you?
Speaker 2: Probably not, You're just in this spiral, And so I
Speaker 2: kind of step back and I look at, okay, what
Speaker 2: and especially for me as well, like one of my
Speaker 2: kind of hobbies per se is running, but running is
Speaker 2: also a big part of my work and making content,
Speaker 2: and so I've had to also be quite honest with
Speaker 2: myself because sometimes I'm like, oh, no, I've got my running,
Speaker 2: but it's like, well, no, running is also technically a
Speaker 2: part of my work because you know, we've got the
Speaker 2: Kick growing program and Kick and all the content that
Speaker 2: I create out of that. So I step back and
Speaker 2: I think, Okay, well, what am I doing outside of
Speaker 2: work to fill my cut back up? And one of
Speaker 2: the things I often find will kind of go off
Speaker 2: and I don't know if this is the same for you,
Speaker 2: that I will kind of first just put in the
Speaker 2: bin per se is social time because I think I
Speaker 2: don't have time to do that. And you also sometimes
Speaker 2: when you feel exhausted, maybe because of work or whatever,
Speaker 2: it might be the last thing you want to do
Speaker 2: is go out for dinner or go and speak to
Speaker 2: more people because you just want to be by yourself.
Speaker 2: But you actually need to get out and do that.
Speaker 2: And for me, it's been really really acknowledging that that
Speaker 2: social time that fills my cup like that is recharging.
Speaker 2: Even though it's with people and solo time is very important,
Speaker 2: connection is also a way to fill like up that
Speaker 2: sometimes I think when we get caught up in our
Speaker 2: own heads, we just put it off and cancel it
Speaker 2: because we don't think that we can show up. But
Speaker 2: that's actually what helps well for me recharge my batteries.
Speaker 2: So it's looking at, Okay, what am I doing, and
Speaker 2: it's what am I spending time on. It Something that
Speaker 2: I always love to think about when it comes to
Speaker 2: hobbies or just things that can take my mind off
Speaker 2: just the grind of the day, is what have I
Speaker 2: done lately? Where I didn't look at the time, and
Speaker 2: time just passed by and I didn't even realize, and
Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking about like, oh, I need to be
Speaker 2: productive after this, or you know, I'm only going to
Speaker 2: do this for an hour. I didn't even notice, and
Speaker 2: the day passed. I mean, I don't do a lot
Speaker 2: of it, but when I've done pottery before, that's something
Speaker 2: that happens. When I spend time with kids, like often,
Speaker 2: that's also what happens painting and reading, and so I
Speaker 2: try to get those things back in my life. But
Speaker 2: it's important to acknowledge as well that sometimes there are
Speaker 2: periods where work will take a lot from you. And
Speaker 2: it's accepting that and honoring that, because I think when
Speaker 2: we try and fight it it can just make it worse.
Speaker 2: But just trying to make sure we're really honest with ourselves.
Speaker 2: If we say I don't have time to do anything
Speaker 2: for myself, it's really asking like why and if you
Speaker 2: can trying to do something otherwise you won't show up
Speaker 2: one hundred percent when you get to work. Anyway, we will.
Speaker 1: Be back with Laura soon, and when we return, Laura
Speaker 1: shares the rituals and habits that keep her from overloading
Speaker 1: on work, why it's crucial to avoid responding from an
Speaker 1: emotional state, and her top tip for starting the week
Speaker 1: strong to ensure you actually get things done. If you're
Speaker 1: looking for more tips to improve the way you work
Speaker 1: can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains
Speaker 1: tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can
Speaker 1: sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha
Speaker 1: dot com. I am curious as to how then you
Speaker 1: stay disciplined with making sure that you do have time
Speaker 1: for these other non work activities, because I think you
Speaker 1: know and I say this as someone who I think
Speaker 1: could do with working less hours. It's kind of it's
Speaker 1: easy to say and it's easy to know, but then
Speaker 1: it's hard to do. And so I can share with
Speaker 1: you something that I have found quite useful because I
Speaker 1: agree with social connection. It's such an energizer. And I've
Speaker 1: got my family. I've got my beautiful daughter, a beautiful partner,
Speaker 1: and they're amazing, but friends are so important. I'm an
Speaker 1: only child, and so my friends are like family. And
Speaker 1: I have a little ritual that I generally do it
Speaker 1: on Mondays where I will just send a bunch of
Speaker 1: messages to my friends and get social catch ups in
Speaker 1: the diary, and I know that if I've got at
Speaker 1: least one or two friend catch ups that might be
Speaker 1: a walk, or it might be a meal or something else,
Speaker 1: then that's a good week. I'm filling my social cup.
Speaker 1: For you, Like, do you have any rituals or kind
Speaker 1: of little hacks like that almost keep you honest away
Speaker 1: from just overleading on work.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's such a good thing to do, especially at
Speaker 2: the start of the week. I think for me, it's
Speaker 2: scheduling in at the start of the week, Like that's
Speaker 2: the biggest hack that we can do for ourselves, because
Speaker 2: if you don't, you never set yourself up for success,
Speaker 2: because then you don't have any boundaries kind of in
Speaker 2: your day. You haven't set your routine up, and then
Speaker 2: you will every time. I mean, it's the same thing
Speaker 2: with moving your body, right. If you don't prepare, if
Speaker 2: you wake up in the morning and you don't know
Speaker 2: what workout you're going to do, you haven't got your
Speaker 2: clothes out, you haven't really allowed yourself enough time, and
Speaker 2: you haven't thought through it and planned. It is so
Speaker 2: easy to be like, oh it's too hard, I'm just
Speaker 2: going to keep sleeping or I'm just going to hit
Speaker 2: to work early or whatever it might be. And it's
Speaker 2: the same thing right with everything with planning. So for
Speaker 2: me with movement, it's making sure I've worked out where
Speaker 2: that's going to fit in my week, because if I haven't,
Speaker 2: the week will just override it. And doing that at
Speaker 2: the start of the week. And then also the social thing.
Speaker 2: I try and make sure I have one kind of
Speaker 2: social connection thing during the week and then one on
Speaker 2: the weekend as well. And it's making the effort to
Speaker 2: put that in right and sometimes I know and I can. Again,
Speaker 2: it comes back to how I feel in my body,
Speaker 2: like when I start feeling down and tired and that
Speaker 2: feeling like close to burnout. I look at a hang on.
Speaker 2: If I look back at the past month or whatever,
Speaker 2: I haven't done the things that I know can help
Speaker 2: me work through this. So I don't always do it,
Speaker 2: but that's a really good hack.
Speaker 1: I want to pick up on what you said before
Speaker 1: about Sydney, where you have to go to Sydney, No,
Speaker 1: you get to go to Sydney. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean that's perspective. Is everything right? And I
Speaker 2: think when we get caught up in the busyness of like,
Speaker 2: how many times do you ask someone how they're going
Speaker 2: and they say busy? And I really try not to
Speaker 2: do that because I like focusing on perspective and then
Speaker 2: coming back to gratitude. When I focus on gratitude, I'm
Speaker 2: able to be so much more present, and I'm just
Speaker 2: able to show up in such a better way than
Speaker 2: I do when I think, you know, the world is
Speaker 2: happening to me, instead of being like, no, I'm happening
Speaker 2: to the world. Like we're in control of a lot
Speaker 2: more than we think, and so so often we think, oh,
Speaker 2: I have to go to this meeting, I have to
Speaker 2: go to work today, I have to go to Sydney,
Speaker 2: and it's reframing that to no, I get to go
Speaker 2: to Sydney, and yes, you know, flying in and out
Speaker 2: in a day might be tiring, but what an amazing
Speaker 2: opportunity to be able to go and do whatever I'm
Speaker 2: doing there. And then I think, Okay, well, it's pretty
Speaker 2: awesome that someone you know cares about me enough to
Speaker 2: want me to go to Sydney and meet them. Because
Speaker 2: then when I go, I'm not going in this headspace
Speaker 2: of I don't want to be here. I'm exhausted, I'm tired,
Speaker 2: because that's going to impact the entire day. I'm going
Speaker 2: to have a horrible experience one million percent.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about something you You wrote
Speaker 1: this really great post on LinkedIn, which I think it
Speaker 1: was something like ten things I now know to be
Speaker 1: true as a CEO, something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and
Speaker 1: one of the things you wrote. I'll read it out
Speaker 1: because I really loved it, and I'm curious as to
Speaker 1: how how you apply this day to day. You said,
Speaker 1: responding in an emotional state is never a good idea.
Speaker 1: Always take a moment, a few minutes, an hour a day,
Speaker 1: depending on how you feel and the response within your body,
Speaker 1: before you respond, Wait until you can get into a
Speaker 1: win win mindset instead of you versus the other person mindset.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about that?
Speaker 1: How did you learn that lesson? Oh?
Speaker 2: I mean, I've learned it many, many, many times. I
Speaker 2: think when things happen, it might be that I don't know,
Speaker 2: someone responded to something in a way that you didn't
Speaker 2: feel was fair, or you're in a negotiation and it's
Speaker 2: not feeling whatever it might be. Usually because it feels unfair, right,
Speaker 2: That's why we respond in that way, and the first response,
Speaker 2: like our automatic response is oh, I need to tell them,
Speaker 2: like why they've made me feel this way and why
Speaker 2: they're wrong and etc. There is no way, like in
Speaker 2: the art of negotiation or just generally approaching a conversation,
Speaker 2: that if you approach a conversation like that, you were
Speaker 2: going to get a good outcome because you're going in
Speaker 2: wanting to I suppose you're not really wanting to the
Speaker 2: other person, but that's kind of how you're approaching it,
Speaker 2: because what you really want if you step back, and
Speaker 2: it always comes back to this stow, which is again
Speaker 2: in the moment. And that's why I kind of said
Speaker 2: if it takes Amitted an hour or a day, because
Speaker 2: sometimes things will trigger us into a really intense emotional response,
Speaker 2: never ever, ever, ever respond in that time. It's I
Speaker 2: don't know any time in my life when I've responded
Speaker 2: in that while I'm in that feeling that it's been
Speaker 2: a good outcome, or if we have got a good outcome,
Speaker 2: it's just taken so long to get there. So step
Speaker 2: out and think, Okay, yes, this person has really maybe
Speaker 2: it's a contract negotiation, they've sent things through that have
Speaker 2: really offended you, like they don't see my value, I'm
Speaker 2: being taken advantage of, etcetera, etcetera. So it's stepping back
Speaker 2: and being like, Okay, they have responded in that way,
Speaker 2: so how I would have responded like that's but I'm
Speaker 2: not going to take it personally. I'm going to come
Speaker 2: back to what do I want to get out of
Speaker 2: this and what do they want to get out of it?
Speaker 2: And how can I respond in a way to pre
Speaker 2: that's closer to that outcome? That will often help the
Speaker 2: other person to bring down their guard, because if you
Speaker 2: go in with your guard and you're in this attack mode,
Speaker 2: they are going to straight get on the defense. And
Speaker 2: negotiating with anyone or having a conversation when someone is
Speaker 2: defensive is I mean, we've all been in those situations.
Speaker 2: It's really difficult. Is very very rare you will get
Speaker 2: anywhere right.
Speaker 1: How do you, I guess, almost take yourself down off
Speaker 1: that cliff's edge when you're feeling like that. To calm
Speaker 1: yourself down, whether it's over a period of hours or
Speaker 1: a day or more, I.
Speaker 2: Let myself feel the feelings. I think that's really important.
Speaker 2: I think often we feel or we're told that we
Speaker 2: have to. You know, we can't get upset, we can't
Speaker 2: feel angry. They're fine. Like, you have to honor your emotions,
Speaker 2: and often when something triggers you, it's just a I
Speaker 2: suppose indication of something you really care about about yourself.
Speaker 2: So I let myself feel the emotion, and depending on
Speaker 2: how hard I'm feeling it, then I just I know
Speaker 2: if I'm still like, if I'm still feeling that for
Speaker 2: a long time, I know that I have to wait
Speaker 2: a little bit longer. I find a good night's sleep
Speaker 2: will help me get out of that emotional state. Most
Speaker 2: of the time, but I wait until I don't feel
Speaker 2: super super triggered and I suppose attacked by it and
Speaker 2: emotional about it. I let those emotions. I honor them,
Speaker 2: I let them pass there. Of course, there are times
Speaker 2: when it doesn't pass, and that's when I actually be like, okay,
Speaker 2: we need to move forward, Like coming back to again,
Speaker 2: what is the outcome that they want? Like what's the
Speaker 2: best outcome for them? What's the best outcome for me?
Speaker 2: Like a win win mindset, and then like applying it
Speaker 2: to that, and it is it's talking to people about it,
Speaker 2: talking it through always helps because I think sometimes we
Speaker 2: can get in our head and we start making up
Speaker 2: all of these assumptions and all of these stories. You know,
Speaker 2: we always say, like the truth is, there's one person's side,
Speaker 2: the other person's side, and then there's the truth, right,
Speaker 2: and sometimes too, what might happen? They might have triggered
Speaker 2: something in you, and then you will then make up
Speaker 2: this entire thing in your head that makes you really
Speaker 2: angry and it keeps that emotion, But none of that
Speaker 2: has happened. It's all made up in your head based
Speaker 2: on how you think that personal respond or assumptions. So
Speaker 2: it's just being able to realize that if that's lasting longer,
Speaker 2: what that is, step out of yourself and then work
Speaker 2: through what am I trying to get out of this?
Speaker 2: And what do they want? But it is, as I said,
Speaker 2: it is much harder said than done, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I want to finish with asking. I feel like you're
Speaker 1: the sort of person you know, given how well well
Speaker 1: read you are and how thoughtful you are, that you
Speaker 1: know perhaps has different mantras or sayings or ways of
Speaker 1: being that perhaps a friend of mine at different times
Speaker 1: in your life. I'd love to know right now. What
Speaker 1: is a mantra or a quote or something like that
Speaker 1: that is serving you particularly well right now?
Speaker 2: Oh, that's such a good thing. I think for me,
Speaker 2: I'm still working through as I said, like working on
Speaker 2: confidence and removing self doubt is still something that I'm
Speaker 2: working on. It's a journey. So the thing that right
Speaker 2: now that I always come back to is that I
Speaker 2: am good enough and I'm safe, and that really helps me.
Speaker 2: Actually that I am safe part because I think I
Speaker 2: don't know what it is, but it just makes me
Speaker 2: feel calm when I say it and I believe it,
Speaker 2: which is you know what we want to do when
Speaker 2: we have a mantra.
Speaker 1: Definitely, Laura, It's made such a joy having you on.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing this last hour with me.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: I hope you love this chat with Laura as much
Speaker 1: as I did, and I know some of it really
Speaker 1: hit close to home, such as the need to be liked.
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about Laura, I highly
Speaker 1: recommend checking out her podcast, Kickpod or the kick app.
Speaker 1: I've put links to both of those in the show notes.
Speaker 1: If you like today's show, make sure you hit follow
Speaker 1: on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop.
Speaker 1: How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of
Speaker 1: the Warrangery people, part of the cool And Nation