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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the.

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Speaker 2: Time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now. Hello, it's doctor Justin Coilson. Welcome to the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast. We have been receiving via podcasts at Happy

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Speaker 1: Families dot com dotu a number of emails about one

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Speaker 1: podcast episode, in particular, one of those penny drop kind

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Speaker 1: of moments where people are saying, ah, now I get it.

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Speaker 1: So in this podcast, we're going to share something that

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Speaker 1: I've shared previously because it has helped so many people

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Speaker 1: with so much stuff if you missed it the first time.

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Speaker 1: This is the conversation about structure versus autonomy. That is

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Speaker 1: the way that we implement rules, limits and boundaries with

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Speaker 1: our children in a way that actually supports their autonomy

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Speaker 1: rather than detracts from it. See limits and boundaries sound

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Speaker 1: like they're taking away autonomy, and yet autonomy is the

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Speaker 1: thing that helps the family to run well. So in

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Speaker 1: this episode, that's where we're going a replay from one

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Speaker 1: of our most helpful podcasts, perhaps ever so.

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Speaker 2: A couple of people we are really struggling with the

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Speaker 2: idea of structure. We think about structure, it's all about

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Speaker 2: boundary setting for our kids. And yet your book is

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Speaker 2: heavily focused on being autonomy supportive needs supportive in your parenting.

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Speaker 2: And if autonomy equals freedom for our kids, how does

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Speaker 2: structure work in with that? Because is that not counterintuitive

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Speaker 2: to what we're trying to achieve with our kids?

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Speaker 1: So structures about limits and autonomy is about freedom. How

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Speaker 1: do they work together? Yeah? So the definitions really matter here,

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Speaker 1: and I think that it's a pretty easy one to resolve,

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Speaker 1: but it's worth spending about ten minutes on because this

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Speaker 1: will fundamentally change the way that we raise our kids.

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Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, maybe you don't need to

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Speaker 1: buy the book if you'll listen to this conversation. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if it's helpful, that's great. So first of all, let's

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Speaker 1: get clear on what structure is. What structure means. Structure

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Speaker 1: is what we provide to help kids to feel competent.

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Speaker 2: So you talk about structure, and because I'm a very

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Speaker 2: visual person, I actually am going straight to a swimming pool.

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Speaker 2: You can't have a body of water without a structure

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Speaker 2: to hold it in.

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Speaker 1: Great, great, great.

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Speaker 2: Right, So if I want my kids to actually be

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Speaker 2: able to enjoy the water, then I need a structure

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Speaker 2: in place to hold the water in there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so and I think of a soccer field.

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Speaker 1: It's similar sort of metaphor. That is, if you want

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Speaker 1: to enjoy a game of soccer or netball, you have

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Speaker 1: to follow the rules, like the game only exists because

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Speaker 1: the structure has been put in place. The rules and

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Speaker 1: limits have been put in place. Netball ceases to be

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Speaker 1: netball if you break out of the structure that defines netball.

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Speaker 1: For example, if you grab the ball and run at

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Speaker 1: your opponent, suddenly it's not netball anymore. Or you dribble, yeah,

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Speaker 1: then it's basketball. And so structure is another word for

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Speaker 1: rules or limits or boundaries. It's the structure that makes

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Speaker 1: stuff work. And structure doesn't just apply to sport. Structure

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Speaker 1: applies to things like mornings and evenings. Like when you

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Speaker 1: have an established structure, mornings make sense and the kids

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Speaker 1: feel competent because they know what's expected at any given time.

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Speaker 2: So the kids, for instance, they know that they wake

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Speaker 2: up at a certain time, they have breakfast at a

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Speaker 2: certain time, and then they've got a few jobs that

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Speaker 2: they need to do before they go to school. Right,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about structure and.

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Speaker 1: As they satisfy the requirements of the structure, they feel competent,

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Speaker 1: they actually feel good about themselves, whereas if they don't

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Speaker 1: know what's expected or there is no structure, they often

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Speaker 1: don't feel good at all. They feel all legs of kimbo,

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Speaker 1: like all of bit funny about things.

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Speaker 2: Would you suggest them then maybe without that structure, they

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Speaker 2: actually feel overwhelmed because there's too many options available to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, And they'll often just end up sitting

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Speaker 1: on the couch and staring at a screen because what

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Speaker 1: do I do? It's overwhelming. I'm going to do whatever

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Speaker 1: is easy. I'm going to take the path of least resistance.

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Speaker 1: But structure doesn't just apply to things like school or

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Speaker 1: mornings or evenings or sport. It applies to how we

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Speaker 1: get along in our home, like the way our relationships work.

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Speaker 1: There's a structure. We have structures and rules and limits

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Speaker 1: and boundaries around things like respect and kindness and helping

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Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. So structure is the kind

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Speaker 1: of clunky psychological term that researchers use to describe how

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Speaker 1: things work, what makes things make sense, how we can

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Speaker 1: make life predictable, Because that's how kids develop their sense

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Speaker 1: of competence, which is the need that we're trying to

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Speaker 1: support here. So if structure applies across the board, what

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Speaker 1: it's really about is creating a sense of predictability because

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Speaker 1: when the kids know that life is predictable, they can

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Speaker 1: then competently follow the path. They can follow the boundaries,

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Speaker 1: the limits, whatever it might be. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: So I guess the next question is, then how does

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Speaker 2: autonomy play within this structure? Because if I'm struggling with

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Speaker 2: this concept, then the idea of creating these boundaries is

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Speaker 2: limiting my children from being able to utilize their autonomy.

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Speaker 1: Some people, when they hear me talking about autonomy, they

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Speaker 1: think that the kids are going to be independent, They're

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Speaker 1: going to have complete freedom, they can do whatever they want.

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Speaker 1: That's not what autonomy or anarchy. Yeah, it kind of is.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to be healthy and because our children

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Speaker 1: developmentally are not at a place where they're ready for

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Speaker 1: that level of freedom. I mean, even as adults, there

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Speaker 1: are structures around us like road rules. For example. We

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Speaker 1: have laws and they provide structure to our lives. We

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Speaker 1: have jobs, they provide structure to our lives. All of

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Speaker 1: these things. We have things like Christmas. All of these

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Speaker 1: things are structures. They help us to have a predictable

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Speaker 1: way of living our lives. But we also have a

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Speaker 1: high level of autonomy as adults because we figured out

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Speaker 1: how to navigate life functionally using those structures, for the

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Speaker 1: support that they give us and also for access to

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Speaker 1: things that we wouldn't have without those structures. When it

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Speaker 1: comes to the kids, they're not ready. They're just not

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Speaker 1: ready for full fettered freedom, full fetted, unfettered, unfettered freedom.

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Speaker 1: Full fettered would be the opposite of unfettered. They're not

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Speaker 1: ready for unfettered freedom. They need a wise, mature, experienced

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Speaker 1: guide beside them as they develop their own understanding of

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Speaker 1: what the structures are, both in our family and at

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Speaker 1: school and the broader society.

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Speaker 2: So this reminds me of one of my very first

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Speaker 2: art lessons. Right, I was just an unstructured activity with

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Speaker 2: a friend. She had all the things out on the

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Speaker 2: table literally, like there was pastors, there was watercolors, there

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Speaker 2: was acrylics. It was all there. And she sat me

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Speaker 2: down and she said, you can do whatever you want. Overwhelming,

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Speaker 2: And I sat there for about five minutes right looking

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Speaker 2: at everything and thinking, well, I could do that, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how to use that properly. And I

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Speaker 2: was paralyzed in my ability to make a choice because

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Speaker 2: there was just so much available to me, and yet

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Speaker 2: none of it made sense. And so it wasn't until

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Speaker 2: she realized what was going on, and she says, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: hang on a sec and she ripped out a piece

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Speaker 2: of paper and she handed it to me, and she said,

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Speaker 2: we're just going to draw the same flower, all of us.

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Speaker 2: We're just going to give it a go with a pencil.

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Speaker 2: And as a result of doing that, we shared the drawings.

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Speaker 2: So we did a collaborative drawing. We each did a

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Speaker 2: different step, and all of a sudden it wasn't so

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Speaker 2: daunting anymore. She created a structure around what was available

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Speaker 2: that I could then go, oh, I can do that.

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Speaker 1: Here's the critical thing about autonomy, though, within the framework

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Speaker 1: or the structure that was provided. Now we've got some rules,

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Speaker 1: we're going to all draw this flower, you still had

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Speaker 1: a huge amount of choice. You had the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: independently determine, to self determine what color I'm going to draw,

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Speaker 1: what size I'm going to draw, what medium I'm going

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Speaker 1: to use. Am I going to actually paint this thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to draw it? Am I going to do

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Speaker 1: it in black and white or color? Like you still

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Speaker 1: had a whole lot of capacity to choose. And so

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Speaker 1: when it comes to structure and autonomy with our kids,

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Speaker 1: the idea is we create opportunities to develop structure together

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Speaker 1: with them having as much of a voice as is

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Speaker 1: reasonable for their age. I mean, you're going to give

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Speaker 1: you your thirteen or fourteen, you're old, a whole lot

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Speaker 1: more voice than you will your two or three year old.

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Speaker 1: But they can still have a whole lot of voice.

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Speaker 2: When your kids are young. For instance, you could suggest

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Speaker 2: you can wear this outfit or this outfit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of feels a little bit forced to me.

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Speaker 1: Let me share an experiment that I write about in

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Speaker 1: the book in the Parenting Revolution that might be helpful.

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Speaker 1: I just think it's a profoundly useful tool for teaching

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Speaker 1: how these things work together. So a researcher from Canada,

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Speaker 1: his name is Richard Kesner. He's the nicest guy, soft spoken,

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Speaker 1: kind gentle, just a really delightful human. And Kesner and

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Speaker 1: his colleagues went into a pre school and they got

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Speaker 1: forty kids in one condition, and forty kids in another

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Speaker 1: experimental condition, and they basically watched to see what would

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Speaker 1: happen with a specific activity that they were doing. So

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Speaker 1: for the first forty kids, they walked into the room

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Speaker 1: and said, hey, guys, we're going to do a painting activity.

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Speaker 1: And all the kids said, okay, fantastic. They remember these

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Speaker 1: are preschoolers. They're aged four maybe five for the oldest kids,

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Speaker 1: but around four or five years of age. We're going

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Speaker 1: to do some painting. And then they said to these

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Speaker 1: forty kids, all, but we need to make sure that

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Speaker 1: we don't make any mess while we're painting, so you

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Speaker 1: can hear here comes the structure. They with the first

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Speaker 1: group took a controlling approach. There was not a lot

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Speaker 1: of autonomy involved. And so they said, if we're going

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Speaker 1: to paint, we need to make sure that we don't

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Speaker 1: get any painting on our clothes. So let's put our

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Speaker 1: smocks on so that we don't get any pin on

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Speaker 1: our clothes. And we don't want to get any paint

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Speaker 1: on the table either, do we. And so all the

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Speaker 1: kids are they're having fun, like it's not hardcore authoritarian

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Speaker 1: command and control. But they said, let's get the cardboard up,

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Speaker 1: and let's put it underneath our paper so that we

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Speaker 1: don't paint off the paper and onto the table because

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Speaker 1: the cardboard will soak up any extra paint. And they said,

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Speaker 1: we also need to make sure that we don't mix

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Speaker 1: the paint colors. So the rules are that when you

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Speaker 1: finished with one color, you need to dip that paint

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Speaker 1: brush in the water and get all the paint out

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Speaker 1: of it, and then you can get the water off

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Speaker 1: and then dip it in the new paint color and

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Speaker 1: keep on painting. So they were quite directive in a

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Speaker 1: gentle and kind way in this controlling condition. With the

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Speaker 1: other forty kids on the other side of the preschool center,

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Speaker 1: they took a totally different approach. They said, guys, we

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Speaker 1: need to make sure that we're not making a big mess,

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Speaker 1: don't we What do you think we should do? And

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Speaker 1: then in conversation with the kids, the kids said, well,

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Speaker 1: we can't get pain on our clothes. And said, well,

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Speaker 1: what do we do so that we don't get pain

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Speaker 1: on our clothes? And the kids said, we've got to

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Speaker 1: wear our paint smocks. And they said, you're bad, And

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Speaker 1: they said, is there anything else we need to make

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Speaker 1: sure we don't get paint on And the kids said,

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Speaker 1: we can't get painted on the table, and they said, well,

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Speaker 1: how do we protect the table? And the kids came

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Speaker 1: up with a solution to get the great big pieces

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Speaker 1: of cardboard card stock and put it underneath the paper.

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Speaker 1: And they said, is there any thing else that we

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Speaker 1: need to be careful of when we're painting? And the

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Speaker 1: kids said, yeah, we don't want to mix the paints up.

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Speaker 1: And they said, well, how do we fix that? And

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Speaker 1: the kids came up with the solution. So in both

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Speaker 1: cases we've got adults who are involved in a conversation

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Speaker 1: with kids about creating structure. But in one autonomy is

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Speaker 1: being thwarted with adults who are saying you need to

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Speaker 1: do it like this and you need to do it

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Speaker 1: like that, even though they're doing it kindly. And then

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Speaker 1: in the other group, you've got this group of kids

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Speaker 1: who are being guided to the solutions as the parents

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Speaker 1: or the adults. I should say, just ask questions like

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Speaker 1: is there anything else we need to do? What else

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Speaker 1: would be important? So the answers are coming from inside

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Speaker 1: the kids. Their autonomy is being supported and the control

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Speaker 1: or the structure is also being developed. But it's been

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Speaker 1: developed as much as possible by the kids. Now, what

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Speaker 1: Kesner found in this study is that the kids who

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Speaker 1: were in the control group versus in the autonomy group,

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Speaker 1: once the painting was finished, they were observed for a

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Speaker 1: short period of time to see what they would do

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Speaker 1: with their free time before the activity complete was fully completed,

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Speaker 1: and the kids who were in the control group, they

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Speaker 1: kind of stopped painting and look for other things to do,

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Speaker 1: whereas the kids who had been in this supportive group,

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Speaker 1: they didn't want to stop painting. They were happy to

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Speaker 1: just do another painting. So their task persistence, their motivation

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Speaker 1: for the task was higher when they were involved, when

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Speaker 1: they had autonomy, when they had a sense of self

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Speaker 1: determination in terms of developing the structure. And that's really

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Speaker 1: what's at the heart of it. When something needs to

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Speaker 1: happen to the extent that we can with our kids,

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Speaker 1: are we going to be controlling about how it happens

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Speaker 1: or are we going to support their autonomy? Are we

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Speaker 1: going to explain here's the situation, what do you think

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Speaker 1: we should do? Or are we going to say, here's

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Speaker 1: the situation, now do this.

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Speaker 2: So I guess my point about giving them a few

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Speaker 2: options instead of multiple options. Is just like me being

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Speaker 2: in that craft room and having all of the mediums

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Speaker 2: available to me and feeling overwhelmed when we've got really

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Speaker 2: young kids, providing them with a few options as opposed

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Speaker 2: to the whole wardrobe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You might say, it's pretty cold

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Speaker 1: outside because it's winter, so we've got some warm clothes here,

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Speaker 1: and some warm clothes here, Which ones do you think

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Speaker 1: will be best?

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Speaker 2: So what I'm hearing from you is that structure actually

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Speaker 2: underpins our children's ability to be able to exercise their

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Speaker 2: autonomy because they understand the rules and therefore they feel

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Speaker 2: like they've got a level of competence yes, to be

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Speaker 2: able to follow through with what needs to happen.

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Speaker 1: And the beautiful thing about this process is it's relationship building,

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Speaker 1: so it supports all of their basic psychological needs. It

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Speaker 1: helps them to feel close and connected and understood and

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Speaker 1: seen a hurdent valued. It helps them to feel like

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Speaker 1: life is predictable and they understand why things are happening

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Speaker 1: because they're involved in the process of developing the why

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Speaker 1: and how, and they get to have a voice that

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Speaker 1: autonomy is supported. I think it's a really important conversation

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Speaker 1: to have. That's really what the whole book is about.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've tried to summarize two hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: pages in ten twelve.

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Speaker 2: She had have done that before I read it.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you have. This is exciting that

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Speaker 1: you've read one of my books. Anyway, what do you

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Speaker 1: mean this is?

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Speaker 2: I've read them all. Thank you very much. Well.

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Speaker 1: I usually tease people when I give my presentations and

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Speaker 1: say that you like my shortest one what your child

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Speaker 1: needs from you, you know, the one that takes me for

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Speaker 1: a long time, as it was the only one that

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Speaker 1: you'd ever read. But you have read them now, and

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Speaker 1: I probably should stop saying that because it makes it

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Speaker 1: sound like you're not involved, and you are, and I

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Speaker 1: love that you are. Thank you so much, Justin Roll

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Speaker 1: and our producer for making the podcast sound the way

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Speaker 1: it sounds. We also appreciate Craig Bruce, our executive producer.

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Speaker 1: If you want more about making your family happier, please

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Speaker 1: visit our website happy families dot com dot au, or

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Speaker 1: grab a copy of this happylass book called The Parenting Revolution.

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Speaker 1: Here's it by again, by yours truly