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Speaker 1: Hello there, I'm Nadia Cameron, publisher and editor of Marketing

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Speaker 1: at MI three. Welcome to the MI three Audio Edition.

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Speaker 1: I've spent twenty five years covering marketing, B to B,

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Speaker 1: technology and business professionals and trends for publications locally and

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Speaker 1: in the UK, and I've spent the last twelve years

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Speaker 1: championing cmos as the growth drivers in business. In this series,

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Speaker 1: we're going deep into the strategic customer and growth challenges

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Speaker 1: facing brands, marketing leaders and their teams and how they

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Speaker 1: harness the art and science to achieve those results. Over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks, we've heard up to one

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty people will be made redundant as Menu

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Speaker 1: Loge shuts up shop in Australia.

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Speaker 2: This week.

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Speaker 1: Omnicom's global CEO said four thousand jobs are likely to

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Speaker 1: be shared by the end of the year as the

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Speaker 1: newly merged OMNICOMIPG structure is bolted into place. Although word

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Speaker 1: is Australia should fare better than other markets, but it's

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Speaker 1: hard to get a precise handle on the exact volume

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Speaker 1: affecting jobs in our space, especially given unimppointment numbers haven't

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Speaker 1: really changed that much. Despite the economic environment, but the

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Speaker 1: Advertising Council of Australia's twenty twenty five salary survey revealed

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Speaker 1: a redundancy rate of eleven percent compared to the usual

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Speaker 1: range of five to seven percent in the twelve months

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Speaker 1: to thirty first of March. It's a sign of what's

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Speaker 1: going on. We also know Endeavor Group made widespread marketing, experience,

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Speaker 1: digital and CX redundancies this year. DENSU flagged eight percent

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Speaker 1: global head count reduction in Q two. We know there

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Speaker 1: were two hundred layoffs at Tabcorp at the end of

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Speaker 1: last year, including fifty customer and marketing staff nine seven.

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Speaker 1: News of made hundreds of cuts nines have continued recently.

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Speaker 1: COHLS has also reportedly made cuts to its marketing team,

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Speaker 1: including its customer chief, earlier this year in favor of

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Speaker 1: a new structure. More broadly, three thousand, five hundred jobs

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Speaker 1: are expected to be eliminated at A and Z in

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Speaker 1: the next twelve months. The Australian HR Institute quarterly outlook

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Speaker 1: for September twenty five also showed that the redundancies are

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Speaker 1: actually on the rise, with twenty seven percent of e

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Speaker 1: employer's planning cuts up three percentage points since the June

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Speaker 1: twenty five quarter. It's the second highest level recorded in

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Speaker 1: the last few years. Over six in ten employers expect

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Speaker 1: AI to reduce some roles too. Nine in ten organizations

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Speaker 1: say roles are at risk or set for maje change

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Speaker 1: within the next three to five years. ABS figures paint

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Speaker 1: a similar story. Annual retrenchment rates at February twenty five

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Speaker 1: were one point nine percent up zero point two percentage points,

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Speaker 1: and equates to about two hundred and sixty eight thousand people.

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Speaker 1: Those are the numbers. They're an attempt at the hard facts,

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Speaker 1: but the reality behind them is that there are a

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Speaker 1: bunch of marketing and advertising industry colleagues having to cope

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Speaker 1: with the fallout and impact of being made redundant, both

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Speaker 1: personally and professionally. In today's podcast, we're focusing on exploring

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Speaker 1: the impact of the redundancy crisis through the lens of

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Speaker 1: four people who've been there. Redundancy is an occupational hazard,

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Speaker 1: but no one teaches you how to get through the

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Speaker 1: experience of being made redundant. It's also one that can

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Speaker 1: happen at any level of seniority. In fact, many of

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Speaker 1: the job cuts that we have seen in marketing been

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Speaker 1: mid to senior level positions and their roles that just

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Speaker 1: can't be blamed on AI. Our aim with this episode

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Speaker 1: is to both humanize and remove some of the stigma

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Speaker 1: from the experience of being made redundant through those personal

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Speaker 1: stories and share some learnings to help others out there

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Speaker 1: that frankly should probably help everyone in employment. So joining

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Speaker 1: me today to discuss the very personal experiences of redundancy

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Speaker 1: are for fabulous talented people from our community. Katie Dally,

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Speaker 1: Leanna Dubois, Josh Slighting, and Amy Dgrut. Thank you all

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Speaker 1: very much for joining me today. So let's start with

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Speaker 1: a quick question on who we have on the mikes.

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Speaker 1: Give me the short loadown on how long you've been

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Speaker 1: in the marketing and advertising industry and your current status

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Speaker 1: or role. Leanna, I'm going to start with you because

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Speaker 1: you're sitting next to me right now.

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Speaker 3: Sure thing, So, I've been in the marketing, media and

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Speaker 3: advertising industry for roughly twenty five years, predominantly inside three

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Speaker 3: major media owners, most recently with the Nine Entertainment Company

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Speaker 3: as their chief group chief marketing officer. Prior to that,

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Speaker 3: I spent about twelve thirteen years at Network ten before

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Speaker 3: it became owned by Paramountain Skydance, and then prior to

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Speaker 3: that was in Southern Crossholstereo B one O five FM

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Speaker 3: in Brisbane. I was made redundant with a number of

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Speaker 3: other colleagues in around February of this year and my

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Speaker 3: current status is I am. I did recently step into

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Speaker 3: a new role which I'd love to share with everybody,

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Speaker 3: but I'll maybe do that a little bit later.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, we're going to dive into that. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for that, Katie.

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Speaker 4: So. I have been in this wonderful industry for two

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Speaker 4: decades and the majority of that time has been spent

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Speaker 4: in creative agencies in Australia, in the UK and also

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Speaker 4: in South Africa, and then most recently, about three years ago,

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Speaker 4: I crossed over to the dark or lights, I depended

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Speaker 4: on which way you view that.

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Speaker 2: Where I worked for.

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Speaker 4: SX listed company in DEVA Group, and that is where

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Speaker 4: I had my first redundancy experience, which I'm looking forward

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Speaker 4: to sharing with you all. And as a result of

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Speaker 4: that change, I have now started my own advisory company

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Speaker 4: called The Growth Multiplier, and I'm also very involved in

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Speaker 4: the startup world, which has been an absolute delight.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking forward to talking about that as well.

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Speaker 2: Josh.

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Speaker 5: Hi, I'm Josh.

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Speaker 6: I'm going on two decades. I've also worked in South Africa,

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Speaker 6: the UK, and Australia. I didn't actually know that about you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I've done a bit of a cross section of things.

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Speaker 6: I've been in kind of core data and technology businesses

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Speaker 6: and then gradually moved through consulting and then I went

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Speaker 6: brandside and I started building things. I also worked at

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Speaker 6: Netblik ten and then more recently at Ria Group. I

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Speaker 6: was made redundan back in June. Tricky old period, a

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Speaker 6: bit of a head scratch.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure we'll dive into all of that.

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Speaker 6: And I've just actually secured something that i can talk

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Speaker 6: about it, but later, I guess Beyle starting in January.

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Speaker 1: Okay, fantastic and Amy, I'll hand.

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Speaker 2: Over to you.

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Speaker 7: Hello. I have also been in marketing for about twenty years,

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Speaker 7: and like some of my politicues on this on this podcast,

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Speaker 7: I've worked across many many regions across Asia and the

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Speaker 7: US and Europe. I've been with Sony Masteracred Designed, and

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Speaker 7: I've been made redundant from my very first job and

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Speaker 7: my very last full time job and so my current

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Speaker 7: status is as a result of the LUSS senior redundancy,

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Speaker 7: I have started a marketing consultancy where I build fractional

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Speaker 7: and bespoke teams. As an answer response, I guess to

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Speaker 7: the market conditions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, I'm going to stay with you on

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Speaker 1: this on Amy as we go into this next question,

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Speaker 1: because it's really important that we do share the personal

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Speaker 1: stories of going through this redundancy. And I am going

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Speaker 1: to add at this point as well that I was

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Speaker 1: also made redundant from my last role on CMO Australia

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Speaker 1: two and a half years ago. So we've all been

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Speaker 1: in this boat and I thought it's worth me mentioning

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Speaker 1: that as well. I want everyone to know that I've

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Speaker 1: also been through this experience, so I completely understand the

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Speaker 1: personal professional ramifications of it. But Amy, tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your personal story of the renundancies.

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Speaker 2: You know, the who, what, when?

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Speaker 7: Where?

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Speaker 1: How is a journalist's question, of course, but really keen

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Speaker 1: to understand, you know, what were the reasonings and where

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Speaker 1: it came from?

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Speaker 7: Of course, So as I mentioned my very first marketing

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Speaker 7: job about twenty years ago, I got made redundant and

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Speaker 7: it came as a complete shock to me. This is

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Speaker 7: as you mentioned before, it's you know, it's an occupational

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Speaker 7: hazard that we are not prepared for. It's not something

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Speaker 7: we study for which you know, definitely this this that

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Speaker 7: we're speaking about it on this podcast. I really hope

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Speaker 7: that it helps or anyone who's going through it or

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Speaker 7: potentially will go through it in the future. It's not

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Speaker 7: in the manual how you deal with it. It was

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Speaker 7: an enormous shock. It was so devastating for me twenty

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Speaker 7: years ago, and then again about three years ago when

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Speaker 7: I was made redundant from a senior role in which

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Speaker 7: I knew it was coming for about six months. It

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Speaker 7: shouldn't have been a surprise that it was still an

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Speaker 7: enormous shock to me and a huge blow to my confidence.

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Speaker 7: And it was very isolating. It felt embarrassing, and it

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Speaker 7: really shouldn't be embarrassing. So at the end of the day,

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Speaker 7: it is, like I like to say, just show business, baby,

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Speaker 7: you could have make myself feel a little bit better

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Speaker 7: about it. At the end of the day, it is

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Speaker 7: a business decision, and we do need to try and

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Speaker 7: take ourselves away the personal side, away from the business decision.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and we're going to talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about that across because I think we all

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Speaker 1: agree the feeling you get doesn't matter how impersonal it

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Speaker 1: actually is from a business perspective, it always feels personal. Leanna,

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about this in preparation for the podcast,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that you could see that something was coming.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't completely out in the blue to be

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Speaker 1: made redundant. But tell us a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: was going on and what those sort of potential indicators

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Speaker 1: were is to what was about to happen. Yeah, sure

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Speaker 1: so No, unlike some others, which I'm deeply respectful two

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Speaker 1: and four and very empathetic to, I wasn't caught off

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Speaker 1: guard like some people are. I could see the train

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Speaker 1: that was coming, you know, to pull into the station.

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Speaker 1: So it was very well documented kind of late last

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Speaker 1: year and early earlier this year that the Nine Entertainment

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Speaker 1: Company was reviewing its operating model. It was in all

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Speaker 1: of the trade press, there were consultants in the building.

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Speaker 1: The brief to all of the executive who were all

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Speaker 1: involved in that process, including the group chief marketing officer,

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Speaker 1: was that the hypothesis to test with the consultants essentially

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Speaker 1: was to decentralize elements of the group business and convert

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Speaker 1: the business into three individual business units. And so when

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Speaker 1: you hold a group title, you know, it doesn't take

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Speaker 1: a genius to ascertain that potentially, you know, that's an

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Speaker 1: interesting conversation to have. So, you know, somebody sitting in

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Speaker 1: my seat at that point in time, I'd been inside

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Speaker 1: nine for twelve years. I'd worked with four different CEOs.

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Speaker 1: I'd gone through three major M and A integrations with

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Speaker 1: m I nine, Fairfax and Quarry Radio. I'd experienced a

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Speaker 1: lot and the vast majority of it I had loved

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Speaker 1: and I had learned so much about transformation, getting people

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Speaker 1: through change, the digitization of traditional media, all of those things.

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Speaker 1: And so for me personally, and this is a very

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Speaker 1: personal story to everybody, and not everybody's story is the same,

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Speaker 1: but for me personally, you know, there there was a

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Speaker 1: bit of an alignment. You know, twelve years it's a

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Speaker 1: good time to you know, thank an organization for the

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Speaker 1: extraordinary experiences that you've had, be kissed on the forehead

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Speaker 1: on the way out the door, and have the privilege

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Speaker 1: of having a little bit of time and space to

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Speaker 1: really think about what you want to do next. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've done twenty five years inside media owners predominantly, and

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Speaker 1: you know, if I think about not to age myself,

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Speaker 1: you know prematurely. But if I think about the next

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Speaker 1: decade or so of my career, I don't have twenty

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Speaker 1: five left, So the next ten to fifteen years of

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Speaker 1: my career really needs to matter. And to me, the

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Speaker 1: things that matter are doing good work with good people,

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Speaker 1: learning and developing and growing and experiencing new things and

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Speaker 1: new networks and really being able to spread your wings

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Speaker 1: beyond kind of what you've always been known for. And

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Speaker 1: I really want to talk about that as we go along,

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Speaker 1: because there is a real sense of identity that comes

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Speaker 1: out of your role and what we do. And I

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Speaker 1: suspect that's even stronger when we're marketers and advertising and

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Speaker 1: creatives and we put a lot of that thinking and

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Speaker 1: that creativity into what we do as well. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: challenge of how you think laterally about yourself as something

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Speaker 1: I'm keen to understand. But before I jump into all

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Speaker 1: my questions at the same time, Katie, just tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about what happened with you and were

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Speaker 1: there indicators, were there any signs that something was afoot?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the absolutely were. I mean, I don't think it

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Speaker 4: was a surprise that all of the media was sort

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Speaker 4: of sharing that there are a significant number of executive

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Speaker 4: changes that were going on in Endeavor. There are a

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Speaker 4: significant number of board changes that were going on, and

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Speaker 4: as we all know, when there are leadership changes at

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Speaker 4: the top, you expect that to flow through the business.

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Speaker 4: So I genuinely was expecting to be in this position

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty six. I think everyone in the organization

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Speaker 4: is probably expecting that, because that's the change that needs

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Speaker 4: to happen in order to set that organization up for

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Speaker 4: its next wave of growth. However, I had been privy

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Speaker 4: to and part of a marketing and digital and data

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Speaker 4: re org in November of last year, and I had

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Speaker 4: survived that, and I had also been on the other

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Speaker 4: side of having to make a significant number of my

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Speaker 4: team redundant, which in itself is incredibly difficult. So where

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Speaker 4: my head was at was, well, I've survived round one,

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Speaker 4: and I've probably got this year to think about what

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Speaker 4: my career looks like next. But I've got a twelve

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Speaker 4: month runway. And I remember distinctly picking up the phone

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Speaker 4: to a good friend and my HR director at the time,

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Speaker 4: and I said, well, I'm glad marketing has gone first

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Speaker 4: in the restructure because at least they can focus on

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Speaker 4: the rest of the business and work out what's right

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Speaker 4: for their next stage of growth. And he called me

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Speaker 4: after the news had been shared about myself and my

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Speaker 4: team and said, I hated when you called me and

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Speaker 4: asked me that question because I knew we were having

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Speaker 4: to make other decisions which involved you and your team.

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Speaker 4: And it was a Monday morning and I had an

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Speaker 4: email drop into my diary with an invite which they

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Speaker 4: had notification of proposed changes, and having done that a

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Speaker 4: number of times before, I knew exactly what that pertained to.

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Speaker 4: And I showed up in the virtual room with my

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Speaker 4: acting CMO at the time and the HR director and

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Speaker 4: I said, I'm pretty sure I know what this is,

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Speaker 4: but I really hope that I'm wrong, and my CMO

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Speaker 4: at the time just burst into tears, which I actually

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Speaker 4: loved because I thought, I know that this is not

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Speaker 4: of your choosing, and the HR directors to me, I'm

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Speaker 4: so sorry, but unfortunately yourself and your entire team have

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Speaker 4: been made redundant, and so then for me, I had

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Speaker 4: to suspend the shock of that whilst I then had

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Speaker 4: to make a decision to show up as a leader

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Speaker 4: to be there for the conversations that followed with all

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Speaker 4: of them the following day, and make phone calls after

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Speaker 4: all of them had been informed, and then bring that

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Speaker 4: group together on the following day. So very much caught

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Speaker 4: off guard with the timing. It was six months earlier

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Speaker 4: than I had anticipated, and having gone through and been

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Speaker 4: part of a restructure earlier was not something that I

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Speaker 4: was anticipating in that moment or with my entire team.

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Speaker 4: But all of these things happened for a reason, and

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Speaker 4: I am really grateful for a lot of the opportunity

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Speaker 4: that's afforded me over the last little while. I think

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Speaker 4: the big learning for me in the moment was I

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Speaker 4: felt like there was not a lot of resources available

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Speaker 4: to help me process the emotional enormity of what I

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Speaker 4: was experiencing. And big shout out to you, Leiana. You

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Speaker 4: did a podcast with Chloe Hooper the Limitless Equation, and

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Speaker 4: mel Hopkins has also been very vocal in this space,

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Speaker 4: and honestly, I just don't think enough people have been

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Speaker 4: quite raw and real about their experience, because when you

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Speaker 4: were in the moment, you need to feel like you

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Speaker 4: are not alone and like you have other people who

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Speaker 4: have experienced their own version of their story. But I

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Speaker 4: think for me that is why we're here today. It

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Speaker 4: was why when my news about my exit from Endeavor,

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Speaker 4: I tried to turn into can we please spotlight the

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Speaker 4: shame around this and spotlight the conversation, because actually there's

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Speaker 4: a lot to be learned and gifted between all of

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Speaker 4: us as we share openly our individual experiences and try

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Speaker 4: and gift forward what we learned to others that unfortunately

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Speaker 4: will go through the same experience. So I'm really thrilled

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Speaker 4: that we're having this very necessary conversation today.

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Speaker 1: And I'm very thankful for all of you to be

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Speaker 1: so open about it as well, because, as I said earlier,

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Speaker 1: having been through it myself, I understand that feeling of

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Speaker 1: isolation that it presents, even when you know it's not personal,

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Speaker 1: and even when in the moment you think, actually, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure I was belonging in this organization at this

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Speaker 1: point in time. Anyway, I think where I wanted to

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Speaker 1: go and where it was going had already diverged. But

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Speaker 1: it still doesn't save you from the experience or the

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Speaker 1: shock and the raw feeling that comes with that moment

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Speaker 1: in time. But Josh, you tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what happened with you. Were there indicators?

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Speaker 6: I think in hindsight. Hindsight is such a luxury. You

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Speaker 6: look at some of the steps that were happening. We

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Speaker 6: also had consultants some area of our business going on.

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Speaker 6: There were shifts to move certain roles and skills, or

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Speaker 6: sure are acquired a business in India, some musicgo. It

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Speaker 6: has become a very strategic part of the ghost story,

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Speaker 6: and there was transitioning things happening. All that stuff just

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Speaker 6: looked and sounded and felt like healthy business decisions.

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Speaker 5: I was really caught off god.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's a it grows double digits every year,

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Speaker 6: it's extremely profitable. It's one of the darlings of Australia.

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Speaker 6: Like it's a very successful business. And I think one

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Speaker 6: thing that really stands out to me, it's successful because

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Speaker 6: it's done things proactively to stay financially healthy. And I'd

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Speaker 6: seen redundancies and changes and I think it's very intentional

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Speaker 6: when they do it. It's never haphazard. But the rollout

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Speaker 6: is also it still feels a little bit like you

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Speaker 6: get very carefully worded language, and I understand the rational.

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Speaker 6: They can't be any ambiguity. I think being on the

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Speaker 6: receiving end of it, I was like, okay, fine. The

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Speaker 6: way I learned about it was actually one of my

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Speaker 6: team who received a company white email reached out to

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Speaker 6: me and going ohe okay, and I didn't know what

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Speaker 6: he's talking about. I had to go find the email myself.

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Speaker 6: I hadn't seen it yet. And then I got a call,

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Speaker 6: and then there was a meeting before the meeting, and

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Speaker 6: then the next day was the meeting, and I.

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Speaker 5: Was like, okay, I think it was a shock and

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Speaker 5: no one.

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Speaker 6: I think it's also it's not a very and I

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Speaker 6: understand why do this companies Generally, it's never fully transparent.

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Speaker 6: I don't think it's done in a very organized way.

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Speaker 6: It's quite rushed. You are ultimately just a person on

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Speaker 6: a spreadsheet and everyone has to put their own. My

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Speaker 6: boss was not like enjoying the conversation. You can tell

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Speaker 6: it's not a oh gay. I get to volunteer half

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Speaker 6: my team to make them redone, and you could feel

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Speaker 6: that it was not pleasant. I didn't make it difficult

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Speaker 6: for anyone either. I'd say, Okay, this kind of decision

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Speaker 6: has been made, Let's get on with it, let's do

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Speaker 6: the right thing. And they did leave. They let me

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Speaker 6: go early. I don't have to work out any extended

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Speaker 6: notice period. It was all very amicable and it was

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Speaker 6: all respectfully done and handled, and I think as gracious

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Speaker 6: as it can be on all parties. The one thing

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Speaker 6: I also observed though, that the fallout who everyone is

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Speaker 6: left behind is very challenging. So I had a number

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Speaker 6: of direct reports and their direct reports, and everyone was like, so,

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Speaker 6: we don't know any know what's going on. We don't

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Speaker 6: know if someone's here or not. We're reaching out to people,

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Speaker 6: we don't know if they're going to reply off. There

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Speaker 6: that lack of visibility to transparent and see there's a

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Speaker 6: waiting period, and I know there's they do this in

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Speaker 6: a very cautious way, but that period of gray and

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Speaker 6: ambiguity for everyone who's left behind so challenging. I watched

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Speaker 6: the teams strung as like, just got to teach focus

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Speaker 6: on your work. Just you're here, you're still employed. Those

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Speaker 6: are the controllables. I'm sure everything will come through in

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Speaker 6: the end. Yeah, it's anyways, my first time. I'd never

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Speaker 6: I'd always watch these things happen, and I was as

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Speaker 6: empathetic as I could be. I am I have a

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Speaker 6: much better understanding having gone through the process now myself.

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Speaker 1: Does that mean that when you do hear of people

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Speaker 1: who've gone through that experience, you've changed the way you

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Speaker 1: talk to them about it?

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Speaker 5: Or I think so? I think there's a genuine care

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Speaker 5: and not that I.

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Speaker 6: Lacked that before. I was always quite empathy. I've always

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Speaker 6: been you know, someone's having a hard time, sucks. But

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Speaker 6: I think I'm even more how can I help you?

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Speaker 6: And do you want me to call this person and

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Speaker 6: open I'm a little more action orit, and I'm more like,

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Speaker 6: let's grab a coffee and let's talk about how you've

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Speaker 6: really fitting give me the lip service of I'm fine

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Speaker 6: and I'm okay, like no, no, no, how are you really?

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Speaker 6: You know we were talking about that. Yes, So yeah,

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Speaker 6: it's definitely changed my my care factor. I think I'm

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Speaker 6: more empathetic than I was because I.

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Speaker 1: Know, Katie, you've talked about feeling like it was almost

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Speaker 1: like the five stages of grief, and that's something we've

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Speaker 1: heard a few places. No matter how prepared you actually

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Speaker 1: are for this, you've still got to go through a

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Speaker 1: grieving period for that that job, that part of your life,

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Speaker 1: that part of your identity, that level you know, that

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Speaker 1: part of what you've just done. So and you mentioned

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Speaker 1: earlier that obviously one of the challenges was talking to

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Speaker 1: people and finding the right sort of resources to support you.

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Speaker 2: So talk to us a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit about what you did, Like, what was that

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Speaker 1: sort of immediate emotional rollercoaster and did you recognize it?

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Speaker 1: What were a couple of things that you started to Okay,

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Speaker 1: these are the things I'm going to have to start

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Speaker 1: to think about and start to do to get myself through.

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Speaker 4: I think I just want to call out that it is.

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Speaker 4: It is a trauma renundancy. It is a traumatic experience.

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Speaker 4: So your initial reaction is complete shock, and as I

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Speaker 4: sort of mentioned before, I had to suspend that shock

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Speaker 4: for forty eight hours, whilst I had to show up

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Speaker 4: as a leader and helped to walk my team through

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Speaker 4: what that meant for them. But I remember really distinctly

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Speaker 4: two days later I woke up and it was my birthday,

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Speaker 4: which was a year after a very big birthday last year,

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Speaker 4: which was a real high and moment of celebration. So

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Speaker 4: to be a year on and to be in that

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Speaker 4: position made it felt made it feel infinitely worse. And

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Speaker 4: I showed up at a friend's house and we were

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Speaker 4: going for a walk, and I think I just fell

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Speaker 4: into her arms and blubbered for about an hour because

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Speaker 4: I think all the shot kind of released. But I

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Speaker 4: also remember, I'm going to I was probably in that

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Speaker 4: state for about two weeks, and it actually took me

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Speaker 4: back to when I had quite severe postnatal depression after

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Speaker 4: my second second child.

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Speaker 5: So it was rich. Did.

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Speaker 4: I absolutely did. It was really tough, and I felt

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Speaker 4: quite But what I recognized in that moment was that

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Speaker 4: it was just okay to feel what I felt. And

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Speaker 4: those emotions and the spectrum of those emotions were vast.

436
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 4: I was angry, and then I was in denial, and

437
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 4: then I was shocked, and then I was sad, and

438
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 4: I was all the things. But I actually just had

439
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 4: learnt that it's okay to let myself feel all of

440
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 4: those things. What I was experiencing around me was that

441
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 4: all the people that knew and loved me were trying

442
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 4: to be then every possible way that they knew how,

443
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 4: but they were also trying to solution me out of

444
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 4: those feelings. And saying you're Katie Dally, you will be great,

445
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 4: You're really positive, you'll always land on your feet. And

446
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 4: I'm sure you know. That is what they thought was

447
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 4: the right thing to share at the time, But actually

448
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 4: I just needed to be in those feelings. And so

449
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 4: what I would say is anyone that's a support person

450
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 4: or is around someone that is going through redundancy, my

451
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 4: ask of you would just be just let them be.

452
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 4: Just let them be. You don't have to fix the situation.

453
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 4: You don't have to tell them that it's going to

454
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 4: be better. It will be okay. I'm sure it will,

455
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 4: but that's not necessarily what they need in that moment.

456
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 4: And if you are the one in that situation, just

457
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 4: feel all the things and be okay with feeling all

458
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 4: those things. You don't try and project manage yourself out

459
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 4: of feeling a certain emotion in a certain timeframe. It's

460
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 4: just it's not how the experience goes and everyone it's

461
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 4: not the same.

462
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 3: Your ricochet between sadness and anger and you know, denial

463
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 3: and all that. You know, it's a squiggly line, it's

464
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 3: not a it's not a straight line. I even though

465
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 3: I wasn't caught off guard in my experience, you know,

466
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 3: the day that Matt and I sat down in his

467
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: office to you know, formalize the train that had been

468
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 3: arriving into the station, I had the sort of sense

469
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 3: that I got actually was one of relief, to be

470
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: completely honest, because in many ways I think I had

471
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 3: done my many of my stages of grief or grieving

472
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 3: inside because I had known that it was coming. And

473
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 3: in fact, I would say, truthfully, you know, before the

474
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 3: consultants even arrived in the building, I had started to

475
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: grieve that twenty twenty six was probably going to spell

476
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: an exit for me after my twelve years of you know,

477
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 3: doing awesome things inside nine And so, you know, going

478
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: through those stages actually inside a business while you wait

479
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 3: for the acts to fall, or while you are proactively

480
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 3: thinking about what comes next, whatever that case may be,

481
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 3: is an interesting leadership journey to go on, you know,

482
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 3: because you still, you know, most people, I think most

483
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 3: great leaders still want to show up every single day

484
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 3: for their people. You know, they want to be resilient.

485
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: You are still you know, a representative of the brand

486
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 3: in which you are working for. You know, we talked

487
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: a little bit about identity. Nadia and the lead up

488
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: to this, and I you know, the external market. When

489
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 3: my news fell, the external market of course reach out

490
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: as they do, and many of the external market would

491
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 3: recognize me pretty much as bleeding blue, like that if

492
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 3: you if you cut my arm, the nine blue would

493
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: would pull from my veins. And so that that actual process,

494
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 3: when I exited, that actually was a huge, huge game

495
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 3: changer for me because you know what the community around

496
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 3: me were brilliant in doing was helping me to understand, actually,

497
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 3: my identity has absolutely nothing to do with Dennison Street,

498
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 3: and it has everything to do with, you know, how

499
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 3: you show up as an individual, how you lead your people,

500
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 3: how you work with your customers, how you hold yourself

501
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: in difficult circumstances, how you know, how you've supported industry

502
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 3: and all those sorts of things. So I almost, I

503
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 3: don't know, I almost feel as though because I did

504
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 3: a lot of the not nice grieving part while I

505
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: was actually contained within, when I came out the other side,

506
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 3: I got to experience more of a kind of a

507
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: positive communal uplift, which was which was nice. And you're

508
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 3: absolutely right, Katie, that the people that come to around you,

509
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 3: you know, that want to pick you up or want

510
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: to even if they are trying to solution you. I

511
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 3: love that that saying. But you know, people come and

512
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 3: you can be amazed by the people that will come

513
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 3: and support you and take action and actually try to

514
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 3: help you do what you want to do next.

515
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up, that graving process

516
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: and also the identity, because of course I had to

517
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: shut down CEMO Australia as part of my process, and

518
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 1: that was me and everybody thought that was me. Well

519
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: it was me. I built it right, So that double

520
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: whammy of the two, and I felt that for a

521
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: while there. I was just overwhelmed with the support for

522
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: the product right. But of course one of the challenges

523
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 1: is everybody's got questions as to why what's happened, and

524
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: I wasn't ready to answer those questions. There were a

525
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: lot I couldn't answer. But also because I needed to

526
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: go through my own process, I'm like, okay, this is

527
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: all just getting a bit much. You know.

528
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 2: I actually have to.

529
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: Portion out my time on LinkedIn, have to portion out

530
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: my conversations. I'm allowed to not answer the phone, you know,

531
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: so that I can just try and process this myself.

532
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: Amy I wanted to ask you with the you know,

533
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: second time around, the unfortunate circumstances of second time around redundancy.

534
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: Were there things in the toolkit that you had from

535
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: first time that you could draw on it all, or

536
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, was it just so different that it's impossible

537
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: to do? How did you how did you sort of

538
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: go through that immediate aftermath that second time round.

539
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 7: I'd love to be able to tell you that I

540
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 7: knew what to do and I had been prepared before.

541
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 7: I think they're just completely different junctures in my life.

542
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 7: But both times, the immediate feeling was if I was

543
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 7: good enough, you would have done something to fight and

544
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 7: try and keep me. And like I said before, soci traumatic,

545
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 7: it's a breakup. You have been dumped. I was dumped

546
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 7: and that is hurtful. That is always hurtful. And in

547
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 7: the last scenario, a lot of the senior management in

548
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 7: the business had been major redundant. At the same time,

549
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 7: on the same day, we were call kind of all

550
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 7: like lined up into an open air coworking space, so

551
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 7: was not it was not private. We're not able to

552
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 7: respond probably in a way that we would like to.

553
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 7: And that is potentially a business strategy in itself, and

554
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 7: we went from shock into trauma, bonding and rage as

555
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 7: a as a collective, which I think serves a purpose

556
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 7: for some some time and can be very dangerous to

557
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 7: sit in that and then all working out our four

558
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 7: weeks notice as well, it was a very murky environment

559
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 7: for everyone, and because of that, you're just flooded, You're

560
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 7: overwhelmed and going back to kind of normal. You know

561
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 7: that normal resources and tools that you would have on

562
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 7: a day to day to be able to handle stress

563
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 7: and disappointment were not as available as usual. So once

564
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 7: you know the stages of grief, we went angry pretty

565
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 7: pretty hard and fast, which was potentially good for getting

566
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 7: it out, but then personally I found that getting away

567
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 7: from that group and then and then the next the

568
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 7: next group is going of your family and friends, who,

569
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 7: of course, as I said before, and everyone's going to

570
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 7: be a fine You're going to be amazing. I had,

571
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 7: in such poor timing, won three quite big awards, the

572
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 7: only awards that I have ever won for marketing and

573
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 7: probably will ever win as well, in the days leading

574
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 7: up to the redundancy. So my response was I'm going

575
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 7: to get as much trade media as possible out of this,

576
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 7: and to my detriment, it made me look very expensive

577
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 7: and I could I'll get a job for love nor money.

578
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 7: I applied for over a thousand jobs on LinkedIn in

579
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 7: five months, and nobody would talk to me, even the

580
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 7: option of you know, we don't like to admit it,

581
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 7: but sometimes we have to take a side step or

582
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 7: a small backstep without becoming titles or money. And that's

583
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 7: the whole your identity of particularly in a senior management

584
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 7: role and being in that for some time, that's that's

585
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 7: you know, another level that you have to deal with

586
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 7: as well is being able to kind of detach from that,

587
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 7: and the impact on your lifestyle as well is tremendous.

588
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 7: So that was kind of the next problem that I

589
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 7: had that I wasn't prepared to do this so and

590
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 7: from such a place of privilege for me, the second redundancy,

591
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 7: that we'll call it my last one, gave me the

592
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 7: biggest kick in the ego and I think now a

593
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 7: few years later I so desperately needed it.

594
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: Well, this is the interesting part of that, because no

595
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: one stays in this negative zone of redundancy forever, I

596
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: mean most you know everyone, And we're going to talk

597
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: about where we're all sort of going next. There is

598
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: a future, there is a next step. You do exist

599
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: outside of these jobs. Your identity is not based on

600
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: just one role that you may have had, and all

601
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: of you, I know, I've been reframing your skills, what

602
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: you are, how you work, how you operate, and are

603
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: going to start to reap the rewards and the success

604
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: from that as well. So we know you can come

605
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: out of this. We do come out of it, but

606
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: the challenge of working your way through that is very acute.

607
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: So I appreciate you actually sharing that, Amy, because I

608
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: think that will help a lot of people who are

609
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: feeling that to understand that. Again, to Katie's point, it's

610
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: okay that it doesn't all work out. It's okay that

611
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: you're angry, and yes, you are very likely to feel

612
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: those sorts of emotions as you go through this process. Leanna,

613
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: with you, you've talked already about some of the steps

614
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: you took to sort of understand who you were post nine.

615
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: Maybe this is a good opportunity to talk a little

616
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: about that and the reframing that potentially that gave you.

617
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: Because to Amy's point, we think our careers are, you know,

618
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: on a hierarchy, they're not necessarily there's certainly a lot

619
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: more dialogue around portfolio careers going sideways, doing something different,

620
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: realizing you don't just have to have the top job

621
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: to be valuable. So talk to us a little bit

622
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: about what you did practically to go Okay, well, what

623
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: can I be next?

624
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: Practically?

625
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: The very first thing that I did was nothing, and

626
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 3: I really needed to do nothing because I was burnt out.

627
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: So twelve years, big roles, M and A all the

628
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 3: things is great while you're on the hamster wheel, and

629
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 3: you just keep on running. When that hamster wheel stops,

630
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 3: burnout hits and so I think it was probably two

631
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: maybe three months.

632
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: I did nothing.

633
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 3: When I say I did nothing, I did nothing from

634
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 3: a business point of view or a networking point of view,

635
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: or didn't go looking for jobs or anything like that.

636
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 3: I hung out with my family, I gardened, I played

637
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 3: a lot of golf with my husband. We went up

638
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: to Gari, to Fraser Island and digitally detoxed like back

639
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 3: to nature. I didn't wear shoes for three weeks of scratch.

640
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 3: So that was the first thing that I had to do.

641
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: And I had to do that because I couldn't see

642
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: the wood for the trees, or the trees for the forest,

643
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: or whatever that saying is. And I needed to just

644
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 3: like consciously uncouple from everything that I had created and

645
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 3: been for all of those years.

646
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that I did that, and I'm.

647
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 3: Deeply privileged that I had the ability to do that

648
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: after twelve years of being inside an organization.

649
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: So that was the first thing that I did.

650
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: And then when I had rested and I had rebooted

651
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: and my brain has started to function properly again, where

652
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: you can actually think a little bit more clearly about

653
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: what you might want the next chapter to look like,

654
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 3: then I did what I'm sure everybody is going to

655
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 3: talk about on this podcast.

656
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: Which is I fired up the network.

657
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 3: And I went and I had coffee and lunch and

658
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 3: rose and meetings and all of those things with what

659
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 3: felt like every human I had ever met. It wasn't,

660
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 3: but you know, there's lots of people out there that

661
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: properly want you to engage because they want to help

662
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 3: you and they want to be part of, you know,

663
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 3: whatever the next kind of journey is. So I went

664
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 3: and fired up the network. I introduced myself again practically

665
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: to all of the executive search firms, particularly those that

666
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 3: I didn't already have relationships with, and I got some

667
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 3: really great counsel and advice from specialists in those sorts

668
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 3: of fields. Pretty Much every single one of them talked

669
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 3: about the fact that your next role will come from

670
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,719
Speaker 3: your network. You know, it won't necessarily come out of

671
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 3: these executive search firms. You know, as the case may

672
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: be for me, it came from a combination of those

673
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 3: two things. Might someone in my network took a call

674
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 3: from an executive search firm that was looking for a

675
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 3: particular type of human and my name was the name

676
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 3: that they gave And that's you know, I now stepped

677
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 3: into a new role two months ago, which I can share.

678
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 3: But what some of the other counsel and advice that

679
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: they also gave me was, whether you like it or not,

680
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 3: you do have to be put in a box, people know,

681
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: like people need to know if they're going to actually

682
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 3: help you. People need to know where you can fit

683
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 3: and what you want to do and what's important to you.

684
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 3: Because if you are too open minded and you are

685
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 3: too well, I can be anything, people don't know where

686
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: to put you, and so they won't put you anywhere.

687
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 3: And So the advice I was given, which I did,

688
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 3: was I had a list of kind of three buckets.

689
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 3: The first was what are the kinds of roles that

690
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 3: I'm interested in doing? And you know, I was a

691
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 3: chief marketing officer. I've been you know, leading sales teams,

692
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: so it would be unsurprising. I was absolutely open to

693
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: see roles or chief revenue or chief commercial officer roles,

694
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 3: chief customer officer roles. But I have ambitions to lead

695
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 3: an organization as chief executive, and so I recognize that

696
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: there are there could be, from a perception point of view,

697
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 3: some gaps in the CV that you might want to

698
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: fill on that journey. So MD roles were right up

699
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 3: there in terms of what I was interested in doing,

700
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: so they were my roles. My second bucket was what

701
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: are the sectors that I'm interested in working in? For me,

702
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 3: Entertainment in the broadest definition is really compelling to me

703
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 3: and a space I've been around for a long time.

704
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: Technology really really interesting to me, and again digital transformation

705
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 3: of traditional media owners all the things. And then my

706
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 3: third bucket, which was quite far down behind those two,

707
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: was consumer. I now sit in a technology business with

708
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 3: SaaS products that service the global film and television entertainment industry.

709
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: So two of three boxes, it's a B to B role.

710
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 3: So I did those lists. I did those two buckets,

711
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 3: and then the third buck it was what's the structure

712
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: of the entity? Is it ASX listed, is it privately owned,

713
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 3: is it private equity, is it founded, etc. And I

714
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 3: had just stepped out of ASX, and for all of

715
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 3: the pros, there's plenty of cons of being in an

716
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 3: AX listed organization, and so I thought, you know what,

717
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 3: maybe I try a different I learn. I want to

718
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 3: grow and learn, so I'll try something different. So I'm

719
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: in a private equity owned organization today. And I just

720
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 3: I got really clear on those three buckets, and I

721
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 3: told everybody I met with that that was where my

722
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 3: head was at. And as I say, you know, months

723
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 3: down the track, by the way, you know, I think

724
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 3: I was out seven months in total, So months down

725
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 3: the track. The phone rang one day by an executive

726
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 3: search firm given my name by somebody in the network

727
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 3: for a global private equity owned technology business that services

728
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 3: the financial and accounting needs of film and TV producers.

729
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the fact that you were able to

730
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: work through that. So pragmatically and practically. I have to me,

731
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: I was terrible at it myself, and I found myself

732
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: in a situation where most people thought I did one

733
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: thing and that was what I was going to be,

734
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: and that I had unfinished business that I didn't recognize

735
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: I had. So that was always an interesting one that

736
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: came back again and again at me in the process. No,

737
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: you've gone unfinished business with this industry, you know. But

738
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: you're the marketers champion and you have those conversations you think,

739
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: am I am I really? Surely I can do other things,

740
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: and then you get to point where like, no, apparently

741
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: I have unfinished business. So Katie, talk us through your

742
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: lateral reframing. I mean, how have you gone sort of

743
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: through that process, going through that process because you mentioned

744
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: earlier working with a couple of startups. Would you have

745
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: expected that prior to this?

746
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 4: No, but I absolutely love it. I think I was

747
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 4: in a fortunate position after my redundancy news where I

748
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 4: didn't have a crisis in confidence. And anyone that knows

749
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 4: me knows I'm a pretty confident person. So luckily that

750
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 4: didn't take a hit. That is not the same for everyone,

751
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 4: and you know, I felt really proud of what I'd

752
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 4: contributed to endeavor. I just delivered a twenty percent cost

753
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 4: saving to the business. I'd been on stage three weeks

754
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 4: before my redundancy, you know, pioneering a brand new model

755
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 4: in a creative tech business with plus also studios. It

756
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 4: didn't exist before. So I honestly felt like my contribution

757
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 4: mattered and that I had left an imprint and a

758
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 4: legacy on that business. And so I felt as if

759
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 4: where I was at was the opportunity for me to

760
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 4: gain control of what I hadn't been in control of.

761
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, when I reflect back on

762
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 4: my career, I carefully curated every single career move across

763
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 4: three continents. I had jobs before I even arrived in

764
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 4: the countries, So that I think was probably the biggest

765
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 4: jolt and the biggest thing to get over that there

766
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 4: was this one experience where I didn't get to control

767
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 4: the outcome. But actually what it has afforded me is

768
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 4: I can now control what comes next, and I don't

769
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 4: have to jump at something that might be half I

770
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 4: can actually be really intentional about what is next and why,

771
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 4: And I haven't had a I hate the industry. I'm

772
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 4: going to go and retrain as a life coach that

773
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 4: I love this industry. I will never leave it, whether

774
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 4: it's marketing side or advertising side. You know, it's a

775
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 4: part of my DNA and I'm so grateful for you know,

776
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 4: the reasonable tenure that I've I've had in this industry.

777
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 4: I think for me, what I launched into pretty quickly was,

778
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,439
Speaker 4: and I'm a really people orientated person, was to draw

779
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 4: on that network that you were talking about. Network network

780
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 4: that you were talking about.

781
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 3: We did a fair bit of networking. Tol got to run, yeah,

782
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: and there is a lot of well.

783
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 4: Thank you to m Logan for introducing us. Leanna was

784
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 4: definitely a very much appreciated redundancy buddy.

785
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: But for me, it was really really.

786
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 4: Igniting that network. And I mean, in the last three months,

787
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 4: I've had eighty two coffees. I don't drink coffee. Think

788
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 4: I'm the only one in the industry that doesn't ring coffee.

789
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 4: Prove you to a rose or a class of champagne.

790
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: But mucher in there or something.

791
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 7: It's that.

792
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 4: But I actually have been overwhelmed at how kind and

793
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 4: generous everyone is in this business, and they want to

794
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 4: get around you, and they want to help you, and

795
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 4: actually their belief in you is really, really so valued.

796
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 4: It's amazing how much you need that because your confidence

797
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 4: is right by definition, your belief in yourself and others

798
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 4: belief in you. And honestly, I think to have had

799
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 4: that sense of affirmation and people willing to give up

800
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 4: their time and the most senior people in this industry,

801
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 4: I'm just so grateful for that. So that has been

802
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 4: a big part of the last few months for me.

803
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: Did they tell you anything about you that you didn't

804
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: already know or crystallize anything for you? I'm always curious

805
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 1: to know if there's been any kind of surprise or

806
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: sort of you know moment where you go, oh, you

807
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 1: think on that.

808
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 4: That's a good question. I think a lot of people

809
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 4: have been curious about whether I want to continue as

810
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 4: a client in marketing.

811
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: It's the agency side, yes.

812
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 4: And honestly, I think for me, I don't feel like

813
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 4: I'm done client side. I feel like my time got

814
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 4: cut short and I definitely have CMO you aspiration. But

815
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 4: I would also never say no to agency side either.

816
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 4: It is a huge part of who I am, and

817
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 4: I'm very grateful for a lot of my foundational training

818
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 4: that has come out of that side. So I think

819
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 4: people want to be clear on how they can help

820
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 4: you and and therefore how to open the next door

821
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 4: and open the next conversation for you. So that's one

822
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 4: thing I would say is if you're in this position,

823
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 4: get clear on what you want out of the coffee

824
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 4: you're having, because they are giving up their time for you,

825
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 4: and it needs to be worthwhile and they need to

826
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 4: feel like they have shown up and given you that

827
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 4: time for a reason. But in addition to that, just

828
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 4: again through my network, there was someone who saw my

829
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 4: background and thought that there might be an opportunity for

830
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 4: me to help with a startup business. And I have

831
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 4: joined as a board advisor in a company called Manifest,

832
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 4: which is one of the family of brand fund previously

833
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 4: unavailable in nice House Finchres which you'll all be familiar

834
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 4: with the brands like Tracksuit and Ideally. And I was

835
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 4: an Ether breakfast this morning and it's just been an

836
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 4: absolute joy to be part of that world. And had

837
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 4: I not stepped out of corporate, I would not have

838
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 4: been given that opportunity, and what a different hustle. And

839
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 4: I'm very entrepreneurially in spirit, so it's just been really

840
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 4: refreshing to be in that environment with get up and

841
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 4: go leaders and to be in a very different context too,

842
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 4: worrying about share prices actually for a change, and it's

843
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 4: really ignited a different fire in me and has made

844
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 4: me consider different avenues and opportunities. That someone has seen

845
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 4: my background and potent, that's that's opened.

846
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 2: A new door.

847
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 4: And I think this is the joy of what redundancy

848
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 4: and that journey can open something you perhaps hadn't expected previously.

849
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: Josh, eighty two coffees. Can you match that one?

850
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 5: No, that's a lot.

851
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 6: That's a lot. My experience is I guess a little different,

852
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 6: not necessarily in a bad way, it's just different. I

853
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 6: was I think the do you fit in a box

854
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 6: comm when you made it, and it was very valid.

855
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 6: I also when I started, I was try and try

856
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 6: it at this travel of that I was a little

857
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 6: bit too open and people don't know how to deal

858
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 6: with that.

859
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 5: There's not a criticism.

860
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 6: Is that everyone's busy doing their own thing, and if

861
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 6: you need someone to help open a door, you need

862
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 6: to be I specifically want to do that. Here's why

863
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 6: I'd be good or here's why I'm interested someone can

864
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 6: do something I've under serendipity is really important. When the

865
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 6: right jewel is just a right job or opening is

866
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 6: available and something's approved or something that will move. Timing

867
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 6: is everything, and so you to present yourself, you have

868
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 6: to create the opportunity a moment, just put your hand

869
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 6: up and be out there. But if they're all isn't there?

870
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 6: Someone can't. And this is especially prevalent and recruitment space.

871
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 6: They've got a finite number of opportunities, lots of talented people,

872
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 6: and they've got to put those people in front of

873
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 6: businesses to converts. And it's like that's just for anyone

874
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 6: who's unclear says they're open. Don't You might be like,

875
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 6: I've got this story for this person or this story

876
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 6: for that thing, But just have a story in a

877
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 6: position because it helps people take you seriously and it

878
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 6: shows that you're prepared and that you are a serious candidate.

879
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 6: The networking part I found it interesting. I think everyone

880
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 6: says the right stuff and everyone's genuinely caring, but not

881
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 6: many people know how to help. So they say to you,

882
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 6: or how can I help you? And so again you've

883
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 6: got to kind of the onness comes back to you

884
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 6: to ask I was surprised at a lot of people

885
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 6: that I thought were close network always, I've got a

886
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 6: great network and lots of people. There's a lot of

887
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 6: people that I've done business with THROO. When you're doing

888
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 6: business together, it's great. But when you need help on

889
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 6: a personal level that wasn't there, that felt a bit disheartened.

890
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 6: I don't think it's necessarily a criticism. I think again,

891
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 6: if they were empowered to help, or if there was

892
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 6: something that they could do, they would, But you often

893
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 6: just get palmed off. Just go apply on the link

894
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 6: on LinkedIn. I'm like, I can do that. I'm asking

895
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 6: you without being overt and I guess that's the advice

896
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 6: I would give to anyone. It's just be clear in

897
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 6: your ask, even if it's uncomfortable to say, can you

898
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 6: please introduce me to this person? Or you know, something

899
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 6: like that carries weight of the opportunities that I've had.

900
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 6: It's because someone was actually like, hey, meet Josh, he's awesome.

901
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 6: You should talk, and that is worth its weight in gold.

902
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 6: Like that is there are thousands of people who look

903
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 6: like you in terms of their skills, qualification. There's a

904
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 6: lot of people who have really good stories around their growth,

905
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 6: and you're competing against more people than ever for a

906
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 6: finite number of really good jobs in the market. So

907
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 6: you've got to just recognize that and get the help

908
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 6: where you can, but just be be prepared as you can,

909
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 6: and it's hard. I liked what you were saying early

910
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 6: on too, like having boundaries around when you're doing things

911
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 6: or not. In the beginning, I was I did the

912
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,839
Speaker 6: same thing as you took. I took a month off,

913
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 6: fuck it undone, I just need to call off, got fresh,

914
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 6: and then I started and then I like, I attacked

915
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 6: job boards and things, and I found that was a

916
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 6: real like dangerous thing to do because it's when you're

917
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 6: not getting a lot of positive signals back all the time.

918
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 5: It is is.

919
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think on reflection through this process, you know,

920
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 6: the one thing I did take a knock in my confidence,

921
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 6: and it was because you list. You left with so

922
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 6: many questions like why, why me? Why did this happen?

923
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 6: Was I good enough?

924
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 5: Why?

925
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 6: Because you were in the pool of people that were

926
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 6: let go so someone else got to stay and you

927
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 6: got to leave, and it makes you question things, and

928
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 6: I did the I was like, what could I have

929
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 6: done better? How can I learn what skills could I develop?

930
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 6: Just the exp that one can be. But then when

931
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 6: I was applying for roles, I was getting through quite

932
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 6: intensive interview processes. I need to be like told no

933
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 6: at the end for something pretty arbitrary, and I was

934
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,479
Speaker 6: like that that wears you down. I did find another

935
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 6: role that I've taken, which is with will Wards, like

936
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 6: I should too much more, but it's it was the

937
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 6: only role in brand that I got to meet people

938
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 6: face to face. Everything else was over a zoom call.

939
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 6: I didn't get to meet a lot of people multi

940
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 6: stage intensive exercises, but Willies is every single conversation was

941
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 6: in person, and the dynamic was different, and I could

942
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 6: really feel that they wanted me, you know, And that

943
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 6: made a big difference a lot of things where you're

944
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 6: trying to prove, like I really want this business and

945
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 6: here's why, and I know that I just got to

946
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 6: let go by the last business. I said this too,

947
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 6: So I say all the things because I really want

948
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 6: you to hire me, but do you want me?

949
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 5: You know?

950
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 6: And I felt that with the Willies te you know,

951
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 6: I could feel it immediately from my first conversation. I

952
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 6: like you, and for me it was also I was

953
00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 6: applying for a role I knew I was really good

954
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 6: at I knew I could do the job, and that

955
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 6: if anyone who does have confidence waning going into something

956
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 6: that's quite a side step and it sounds like you're

957
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 6: stepping into your now role. You've got confidence and you

958
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 6: know you took the time and you made sure it's

959
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 6: right for you. But if anyone is just like pretty

960
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 6: fresh out of being made redundant, if you haven't done

961
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 6: the work and you're not super clear about what you

962
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 6: want to do next, trying something that's radically different, it's

963
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 6: going to shake you a little because your learning curve

964
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 6: is going to start in a new business and a

965
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 6: new environment, and if you don't know necessarily like, this

966
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 6: is the thing I'm going to do and I'm really

967
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 6: good at it. So I personally thought, actually, this is

968
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 6: a job I know I can do. I'm actually really

969
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 6: good at a lot of those things. I know I

970
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 6: can be affected from day one, and part of that

971
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 6: confidence kind of rebuild and establishing myself again in somewhere new,

972
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 6: I actually thought, I'm going to lean a little bit

973
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 6: more to that, And even if the earnings weren't necessarily

974
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 6: the same as it could be elsewhere. I'm not doing

975
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 6: some crazy head of department job. I don't have the

976
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 6: job title or attached to my identity. Crap, I'd lost

977
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 6: that when he started the marketing academy. I've been working

978
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:01,360
Speaker 6: on that for years.

979
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 5: That's not my thing. Yeah, but you know anyway, so

980
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 5: that's my experience.

981
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 1: Amy with you. I mean, applying for all those jobs disheartening.

982
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: How did you sort of work yourself through to a

983
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: phrase where you went, Okay, I'm going to do this

984
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 1: differently because you obviously have whether you call it necessity

985
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,959
Speaker 1: burning platform. You know, I was in the position where

986
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 1: I had to go find money straight away. I panicked

987
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: about that, and I was very fortunate. I found a

988
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,240
Speaker 1: couple of projects that worked out really well. But again

989
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: I wasn't in a position where I could just take

990
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: the time off. I needed to keep earning something. But

991
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 1: you know, again, when you're trying to work through that process,

992
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: knowing that you need to make decisions and understand what

993
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: box you fit or how you're going to present yourself

994
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: and then you're not getting the opportunity to have those

995
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: conversations is very frustrating. So how did you work through

996
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: that process to get to where you are now. It

997
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: was the was there a light bulb moment or was

998
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: it much more of a gradual process for you?

999
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 7: It was months of sheer panic. I'm not going to lie,

1000
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 7: and I just got to a point where I was

1001
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 7: just so depleted of energy and confidence. Everyone kept asking

1002
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 7: me how my break was going when I've never been

1003
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 7: more stressed in my life, and I'm sure that resonates

1004
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 7: with a lot of people. And I was applying for

1005
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 7: all these jobs and then I just one day I

1006
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 7: had to stop and think about it, like, I actually

1007
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 7: don't want any of those jobs that I applied for

1008
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 7: at all. And I just thought, in tears at my

1009
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 7: dad's kitchen bench, if I can't get a job, I'm

1010
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 7: going to have to make a job. And then I

1011
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 7: kind of sat there and just had it, you know,

1012
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 7: through all the tears.

1013
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 3: One of my good.

1014
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 7: At what do I like doing? What can I get

1015
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 7: paid for? Which is the basics? And I have a

1016
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 7: slightly inappropriate quote on my phone that I found on

1017
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 7: that day and I refer to all the time, and

1018
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 7: it just says, take a deep breath and remember who

1019
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 7: the fuck you are. And in that moment, I kind

1020
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 7: of picked myself up and I'm like, yeah, there's the

1021
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 7: market fit for these things. I can I can go

1022
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 7: to owner operators who are really really good at what

1023
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,439
Speaker 7: they do and they don't have a lot of time

1024
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 7: for marketing, but have made enough money to pay for

1025
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 7: the marketing help. And I'm just going to start taking

1026
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 7: them for coffee or begging them to have a roseate

1027
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 7: with me. And I was very fortunate in the fact

1028
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 7: that my theory kind of worked and it has it's

1029
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 7: picked up and it's scaled, and so now I'm looking

1030
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 7: at creating those jobs instead of going back to LinkedIn,

1031
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 7: and it is devastating to sit and LinkedIn and I

1032
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 7: went immediately after being made redundant. I was there just

1033
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 7: applying for jobs, not even them, not taking the time

1034
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 7: to do it. So that's kind of what led me

1035
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 7: to the point that I am today.

1036
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 1: Is there anything we haven't covered that you guys want

1037
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 1: to make sure you get a cross.

1038
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 3: There's one piece of advice I was given in my

1039
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 3: first week out by a good friend, which was the

1040
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 3: idea that when you're out, time moves differently for you.

1041
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 3: And he gave me that. So he had been made

1042
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 3: redundant four months before or something like that, and he said,

1043
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 3: you know, you've got an incredible network. At some point

1044
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 3: in time, when you're ready, you're going to start reaching

1045
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 3: out to those people. But don't be surprised if they don't.

1046
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 3: Like they're not sitting on their text messages or their

1047
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 3: inbox going. Leanna just messaged I message of her straight back.

1048
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 3: Like time moves infinitely more slowly for you on the

1049
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 3: outside because everybody else has got their day job right,

1050
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 3: and they're all still on the hamster wheel and they're

1051
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,919
Speaker 3: all still doing their thing. And so he was trying

1052
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 3: to give me the comfort and the confidence that you know,

1053
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 3: if somebody doesn't respond to you for a week or

1054
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 3: two weeks or three days or whatever it is, it's

1055
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 3: actually got nothing to do with whether they're prepared to help,

1056
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 3: what your the state of your relationship is, any of

1057
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 3: that type of stuff. It's just they've got shit going

1058
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 3: on and you don't.

1059
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:13,240
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1060
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was a.

1061
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 3: Great piece of advice because I felt so calm when

1062
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 3: people didn't immediately respond.

1063
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good piece of advice. Okay, I'm going

1064
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: to ask that question to everyone else. What sort of

1065
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: proactive advice can we give people given it's you know,

1066
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: it is a personal experience. It's a very individual experience.

1067
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: We don't have answers, we don't have clear answers for people,

1068
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,439
Speaker 1: but we've certainly got some learning. So last pieces of advice, Katie, I.

1069
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 4: Think important to know that you are not damaged goods.

1070
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 4: And there is a beautiful analogy which is I think

1071
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 4: a great summary of who we are and what our

1072
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 4: career is embody, which is we are all story books

1073
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 4: and we're writing the chapters in our story books, and

1074
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 4: that storybook when you work for someone else lives in

1075
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,440
Speaker 4: a library. When you work for someone else, you are

1076
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 4: loaning your storybook for them to help you write that chapter,

1077
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 4: and they will return that book at some point back

1078
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 4: to the shelf, and ideally you then get to be

1079
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 4: part of who loans you next, but it is always alone.

1080
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 4: They are loaning and gaining your experience, your expertise, your wisdom,

1081
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 4: and it is a privilege for them to be able

1082
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 4: to help write that next chapter with you. But it's

1083
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 4: also your decision as to whether or not you choose

1084
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 4: to write that chapter with them next. So be deliberate

1085
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 4: about who that next chapter is written with, because it

1086
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,240
Speaker 4: is ultimately your decision, even if the way you got

1087
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 4: to that next loan was yours or not. And the

1088
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 4: other thing I'd say is, and we've covered the essence

1089
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 4: of this today, but my learning and big shout out

1090
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 4: to the Marketing Academy who have an incredible support stream

1091
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 4: who help everyone through this. But through that process I

1092
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,879
Speaker 4: was of you. Two wonderful women in the UK are

1093
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 4: Sarah Ellison Helen who have a business of which part

1094
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 4: of that is called the squiggly careers, and that is

1095
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,720
Speaker 4: what we are experiencing right now. No career is linear,

1096
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 4: it is a squiggly drawing. Change is all around and

1097
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 4: we need to be really open minded about what our

1098
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 4: next ten years look like and it's not going to

1099
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,439
Speaker 4: look like the ten years that have gone before. And

1100
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 4: in that they have a redundancy workshop that you can

1101
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 4: work through. As part of that, they talk about the A,

1102
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,280
Speaker 4: B and C of your next journey, your next decision.

1103
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 4: And I think traditionally you think that you always want

1104
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 4: to move from an A to a B and that

1105
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 4: B role is going to be your ultimate, your dream

1106
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 4: next job. But take the pressure off yourself because you

1107
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 4: don't have to move from A to B. You can

1108
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 4: move from A to C, skip the B and come

1109
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 4: back to the bad another point in time. And don't

1110
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 4: expect that the next thing you do is necessarily going

1111
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 4: to be the earth shudderingly dream fulfilling opportunity, because it

1112
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 4: might not be because it's a really tough market out there.

1113
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 4: And the other thing I'd say is no one cares

1114
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 4: what you do next. I've really had to check my

1115
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 4: ego because I keep thinking, what is everyone going to

1116
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 4: think when I eventually change my title on LinkedIn?

1117
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: No one cares.

1118
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 4: I'm the one that has to do the job. So

1119
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 4: I'm going to do the job that I want to

1120
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 4: do next, and that's all that matters.

1121
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: Yes, I have to say, persistence is something I realized

1122
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 1: I had that I didn't realize I had until I

1123
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: went through this process. So yeah, there's some things you

1124
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: learn about yourself that are helpful even as you go

1125
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: through the tears and the grief and the challenges. Josh,

1126
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: what's your advice? What can we give people as a

1127
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: next step or an okay or what you think that

1128
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 1: would just help. Given as we've said, this is very

1129
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: individual and it is a very individual journey.

1130
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 5: I've probably just build on what you just said, Kay,

1131
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 5: this is quite specific.

1132
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 6: I always say to people whenever you're interviewing or having conversations,

1133
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 6: it's not just you being interviewed like can I have

1134
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 6: the job, please hire me? You need to be interviewing people.

1135
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 6: You need to be asking pretty tough questions. I just

1136
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 6: imagine that you're in this position and getting made redundant

1137
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 6: in three years or five years or twelve months or

1138
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 6: whatever the timeframe is, would you have regrets having not

1139
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 6: asked things like what's the health of your P and L,

1140
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 6: what is your customer attention rate? Tell me about the

1141
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 6: team sentiment, what time am I walking into? What are

1142
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 6: the three biggest risks or strategic comparators that you're doing?

1143
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 6: And how does me winning in this raw?

1144
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 5: Look? How are we going to work together?

1145
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 6: These are they're asking you tell me a time when

1146
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 6: you did and blah blah blah and all these questions,

1147
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 6: which is fine, But you are equally you're about to

1148
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 6: commit a minimum of thirty seven and a half hours

1149
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 6: a week paid to a business run endeavor, and your

1150
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 6: time is valuable and you only get say thirty to

1151
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 6: forty years of working history. You might do five or

1152
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 6: ten jobs. This is as a meaningful amount of time,

1153
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 6: and you can see like the consequences of not asking

1154
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 6: these questions.

1155
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 5: I think you do it when you're more junior in

1156
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 5: your career.

1157
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 6: But the temptation after coming through something like a redundancy

1158
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 6: might be like, just give me a job, please, I

1159
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 6: just need an income, any security, and you might forgo

1160
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 6: asking hard questions you shouldn't don't get you don't know,

1161
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 6: and it's just you pick up things about someone's style

1162
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 6: or honesty, or it might tell you. I always say

1163
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 6: to people, just have at least three questions, And often

1164
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 6: interviewers will say a warning sign is that someone didn't

1165
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 6: ask a question about the business, because it shows they're

1166
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 6: having research and they're not being thoughtful. And candidates generally

1167
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 6: who asked those questions do get through. But selfishly, for you,

1168
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 6: as a person going to work for a business to

1169
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 6: trade your time for money, ask the questions so that

1170
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 6: you feel confident this is actually the right thing for me.

1171
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,160
Speaker 6: I feel good about this decision, or I heard something

1172
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 6: and this is something I don't want to do and

1173
00:59:57,640 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 6: actually want to walk away.

1174
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, Amy, have you got any more advice to

1175
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: build on from there?

1176
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 7: I think it's really important to remember that there is

1177
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 7: no manual or how do it feel, how to respond

1178
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 7: when the next job comes, what the next job is,

1179
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 7: what room it's in. I always like to remind myself

1180
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 7: when I'm having a moment of inferiority that there's a

1181
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 7: room for everyone, and there's a lot of rooms to

1182
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 7: play in. We maybe have just never considered it before.

1183
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 7: And also lean on people who will support you in

1184
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 7: the way that you need at the time, and going

1185
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 7: through the stages of grief, they will be different people

1186
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 7: along the way. That was really pertinent for me because

1187
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 7: I was leaning on the wrong people when I needed

1188
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 7: different types of support, and then that can be very

1189
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,440
Speaker 7: disheartening and confused when you're going through the process and

1190
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 7: all the stages and feeling quite isolated and unsure of

1191
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 7: yourself as well. So those some really important things to

1192
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 7: try and remember in the when it is more tough.

1193
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1194
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, And one really practical tip if you have not

1195
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 4: read the book All the Cool Girls Get Fired. You

1196
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 4: don't have to be female to read the book. But

1197
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 4: that is an incredible manual actually for how to weather

1198
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 4: each and every step and it's been published from one

1199
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 4: Ossie actually who was made redundant out of the US

1200
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 4: in media, So there's a few American things that you

1201
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 4: can leave on the cutting room floor, but that's an

1202
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 4: incredible resource.

1203
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 2: And there are a.

1204
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 4: Whole lot of Hollywood A listers who share their redundancy stories,

1205
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 4: which is a real leveler, So highly recommend putting that

1206
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 4: on your reading shelf.

1207
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think what I'm hoping is through this conversation

1208
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: that we've at least presented people with the fact that

1209
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: this happens to all different kinds of people, that it

1210
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: is rife, but that and it is an individual thing

1211
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 1: that you will go through and there's no clear answer,

1212
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: but at the same time you will actually come out

1213
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: of it. You will. So I'd like to thank everyone

1214
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: on this MI three podcast today, so Amy, Josh, Katie, Leanna,

1215
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being so open and honest

1216
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: about it today.

1217
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 2: Thanks.

1218
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:27,760
Speaker 1: This three audio edition was presented by Nadia Cameron, producer

1219
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: Alyssa Partington. Music by Matt Dwyer. For more episodes, download

1220
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: the iheartapp and search three Audio edition, or do the

1221
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 1: same for any of the major podcast networks.