1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Happy Families Podcast. What if everything 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: that we think that we know about mental health education 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: in schools is wrong? What if the mindfulness sessions, the 4 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: CBT exercises and the wellbeing lessons that are now mandatory 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: and classrooms across the country and not just failing our 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: kids but are actually making some of them worse. Well, 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: it's not actually mandatory, but a lot of schools are 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: making it essentially mandatory. The well being movement is in 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: full swing and education. Today, we're diving into the explosive 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: new research that's turning the mental health education world upside down. 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: We're going to explore why a leading Oxford psychologists says 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: we need to stop these universal mental health lessons immediately, 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,639 Speaker 1: what the evidence really shows about their effectiveness, and what 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: this means for Australian parents whose kids are sitting through 15 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: these classes right now. Stay with us. Hello and welcome 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: to a Doctor's Desk episode of the Happy Families podcast, 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: where you get real parenting solutions every day. We are 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: Justin and Kylie Colson. This is the most download parenting 19 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: podcast in Australia. How awesome is that? Doctor Lucy Folks 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: is an academic psychologist at the University of Oxford, who 21 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: researches mental health and social development in adolescence and is 22 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: the author of What Mental Illness Really Is, And she's 23 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: arguing that universal mental health lessons in schools should be 24 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: stopped immediately, Kylie. Initial reactions when you hear this, given 25 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: that everybody is talking a lot about mental health. It's 26 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: in the ether, it's in the atmosphere in twenty twenty five. 27 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 2: My head is going in so many different directions at 28 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 2: the moment. I think about how simplistic school was in 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: the beginning of time, right, Her teachers were teaching arithmetic 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: and English, punctuation. 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: And reading, writing, arithmetic. 32 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what we're now expecting of our teachers. You 33 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: think about a psychologist. You've done a four year degree, 34 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 2: but in order for you to be qualified as a psychologist, 35 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: a practicing clinical psychologist, you would have needed to do 36 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: another two years of clinical practice minimum. 37 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: And many have done other stuff. They've done doctoral dissertations 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing as well. 39 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 2: Yep, Right, but we're asking teachers who do a three 40 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 2: year teaching degree. 41 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: I think it's four, it's four to. 42 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: Then step in and be not only an expert in 43 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: mass in English, but all things to do with mental 44 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: health and you know, kind of life skills. It just 45 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: is so much. So my head is my head is 46 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: definitely kind of just reeling with the magnitude of what 47 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 2: we're expecting of our teachers. But then secondly, I'm really 48 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: curious to know why she's saying that they that these 49 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: things need to stop, because from personal experience, We've got 50 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: a daughter going through grade twelve at the moment, and 51 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 2: her school is adamant that the lessons that they're putting 52 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 2: on for her well being essentially are going to make 53 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 2: the biggest difference to her, and she's actually cowering away 54 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: from them. They're not something that she feels are a 55 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: positive experience for her. 56 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: So somebody who's done a PhD, which meant that I 57 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: did the four years of undergrade side, including the honest year, 58 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: and then I did the PhD and then it became 59 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: a university lecturer for a couple of years, I can 60 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: tell you categorically that it how do I say this politely, 61 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: It concerns me. It concerns me that school educators who 62 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: are just like, if there's one line that really upsets me, 63 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: it's the line it's not my job. It's not my job. 64 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: And yet when I look at mental health instruction, I 65 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: just don't think it's a teacher's job to be doing it. 66 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: It doesn't fit for me because this is a specialized area. 67 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: It's an air of really distinct qualification that's required. As 68 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: it is, I think that so many mental health professionals 69 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: are not even up to the job. 70 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 2: And it was about to say that. I can't tell 71 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: how many conversations I've had with people who've been talking 72 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: to their therapists and they've shared something with me, and 73 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: I'm like, they said, what. 74 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the mental health indust complexes alive and well, 75 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: and I think, well, let's talk about what doctor Lucy 76 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: Folks has to say about it and why this matters. 77 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: And I'm just going to add my commentary in and 78 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: around it. So there's three central reasons that she highlights 79 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: that it needs to stop. And I'll tell you whether 80 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 1: I think she's right and wrong and where this sits 81 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: for me. But I think mostly I'm in agreement with it, 82 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 1: which is why I'm bringing it up. And bear in mind, 83 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: I go in to schools and do mental health education, right, 84 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: that is part of what I do. So I am 85 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: making an exception for people like myself and doctor Lucy Folks. 86 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: But I'll explain why as we go vested interest in 87 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: all that. Yeah, yeah, okay, So number one, the evidence 88 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: shows that these programs don't work. Where do we start here? 89 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: So I remember when I was doing my doctoral dissertation 90 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,239 Speaker 1: back in the two thousands, like two thousand and seven, 91 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: three to ten or something like that, and there was 92 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: this big hooha happening because Martin Seligman, who was the demigod, 93 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: the doi en of all things positive psychology, was out 94 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: there flogging his book Flourish, after he'd written Authentic Happiness. 95 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: I quite liked Authentic Happiness. I fel like Flourish was 96 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: a great, big sales spill basically, and it didn't really 97 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: tell us anything. And there was this research project that 98 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: he'd run with another researcher, Karen Rievitch, and a couple 99 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: of others, And I don't want to get into the 100 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: weeds too much, but basically they're touting the incredible impact 101 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: that it's had on the well being of these fifteen 102 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: year old school students. But everywhere I looked, I couldn't 103 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: find the program. It was not available for peer review, 104 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: it hadn't been written up, it hadn't been published. The 105 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: research around it was skint. At the same time, he 106 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: went into the US military and was doing this comprehensive 107 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: mental fitness for soldiers stuff to avoid post traumatic stress disorder. 108 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: But there was no research published, and of course it's 109 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: in the military, so they didn't want to get the 110 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: secrets out there. But all of the research that was 111 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: being done, you couldn't find it anywhere. There was no 112 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: peer reviewed research. And the more I did my PhD 113 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,239 Speaker 1: in this area of positive psychology, the more I became 114 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: skeptical of it. And the more I found that the 115 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 1: interventions were being touted as world change and life changing 116 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: and world leading and all these things. And yet I'd 117 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: look at the stats, I'd look at the methodology, I'd 118 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: look at the participants, and I just had these big questions, like, 119 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,239 Speaker 1: I don't think positive psychology is living up to the promise. 120 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: So doctor Lucy Folks has had a look at it 121 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: herself and basically said, and I'm sort of quoting here 122 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: while I'm paraphrasing, high quality research demonstrates that universal school 123 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: mental health interventions produce no improvement in mental health symptoms 124 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: and some studies show they actually increase symptoms and cause 125 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: other negative outcomes. 126 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 2: Without reading her manuscript, her research, and sitting in the 127 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: place that I see it, I always get nervous about 128 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: wanting to educate the wider community on all of the 129 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 2: symptoms and challenges that one can experience, because in doing so, 130 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 2: we highlight all the things that are possible, and all 131 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: of a sudden, we have a whole group of teenage 132 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: kids who start self diagnosing yeah, and ruminating over, Oh, 133 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: that sounds like me, I've got that. And the reality 134 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: is all of the symptoms we each experience them at 135 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: some point in our lives. We go through stages where 136 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: we have these you know, downtimes, we're really struggle, We 137 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: ruminate over hard situations and hard conversations, and then we 138 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: start kind of thinking negative thoughts and we all go 139 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: through the you've. 140 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: Used the key word stages. When I was growing up, 141 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: the key would that my parents would often say is, Oh, 142 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: they're just going through a stage. But we don't say that. Yeah, 143 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: we don't say that anymore. People aren't going through stages 144 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: and phases anymore. They're getting diagnosed. And I believe I 145 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: want to really tread gently here because I recognize we're 146 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: on very, very sensitive ground. Overwhelmingly, though, the more we 147 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: talk about these issues, the more people start to dwell on, ruminate, investigate, 148 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: step into, and even accept labels and say, well, I'm 149 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: going to stick label on myself. I still hold the 150 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: line that, as a general rule, with only very few exceptions, 151 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: labels belong on jars, not people. And the more we 152 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: step into this, the more it becomes part of our identity. 153 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: And once it becomes part of our identity I'm an 154 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: anxious person, for example, it's harder and harder to shake that. 155 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, I'm not going through a phase anymore. 156 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: This is going to become an ingrained component of who 157 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: I am. So that's to me a big red flag. 158 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: And the more we talk about mental health in schools 159 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: and to kids, the more possibility and certainly the research 160 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: bears it out. The mental health industrial complex is winning. 161 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: Here and more people being diagnosed, going to see counselors, 162 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: going to see psychologists, going to see specialists of one 163 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: kind or another, because of all of the challenges that 164 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 1: we're becoming increasingly aware of, and the definition of what 165 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: counts as anxiety or post traumatic stress or depression or 166 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: whatever keeps on expanding, it becomes more inclusive because we 167 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: want anyone who's experiencing any kind of suffering or trauma 168 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: to make sure that they are being seen and heard 169 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: and labeled where appropriate. So this is her first, big, big, 170 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: I guess challenge to the mental health industry and to 171 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: schools generally about pumping out the wellbeing stuff, which I mean, 172 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: I've been at the forefront of for years and I'm 173 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: not anymore. I've really pulled back from it. I have 174 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: concerns around it. 175 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: It's interesting because the more we talk about this, the 176 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 2: more I am aware of the moments in my life, 177 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: moments in time where I have experienced anxiety, And as 178 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: I get older, I actually think that I experienced it 179 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: a whole heap more than I did as a younger person, 180 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 2: with all the different facets to life and being a 181 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 2: mom and looking after children and worrying about them, and 182 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: just the different places and spaces that I find myself in. 183 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 2: But I don't ever think, oh, I'm a person with anxiety. 184 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 2: I think I'm a person who's experiencing. 185 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: And that's adaptive. That's how it's supposed to be. One 186 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: of the challenges when it comes to anxiety. Is we 187 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: actually shared a meme about a month ago on Facebook 188 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: where we said me, what could possibly go wrong my anxiety? 189 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: I'm glad you asked right. And so that's the difference 190 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: between adaptive versus maladaptive, or healthy versus unhealthy anxiety. After 191 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: the break, I want to talk about the two other 192 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: reasons that doctor Lucy Folks says we've got to stop 193 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: mental health education instruction in schools immediately as coming up 194 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: in just a sec on the Happy Families podcast Stay 195 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: with us. Doctor Lucy Folks, the author of the book 196 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: What Mental Illness Really Is, is making a strong and 197 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: provocative critique saying that we are talking about mental health 198 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: too much in schools and it's not serving our children well. 199 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: In fact, the evidence shows number one that these programs 200 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: don't work, and number two doesn't work because the one 201 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: size fits all program or approach. So let me step 202 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: through this with you, Kylie. In any classroom, you're going 203 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: to find that most students don't have mental health problems, 204 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,599 Speaker 1: which makes lessons er. I remember I was asked to 205 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: speak at a school about the topic of anxiety, and 206 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: I said, Okay, who am I going to be speaking with, 207 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: and they said, all of grade eleven, how many students 208 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: do you have? We have three hundred students in grade eleven, 209 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: And I said, so, one of the challenges that I'm 210 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: going to have as keynote speaker is I'm going to 211 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: speak about anxiety to three hundred students and probably at 212 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: absolute tops, one hundred of them are going to be 213 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: struggling with anxiety. Just when you look at the numbers, 214 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: somewhere around one hundred. It could be a touch more, 215 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: but it's likely to be less, particularly given the demographics 216 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: of this particular school. So we're going to have a 217 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,719 Speaker 1: whole lot of kids now start to worry about whether 218 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: they should be worried. They're going to be anxious about 219 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: whether they do or don't have anxiety, and they're also well, 220 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: they're going to be sitting there thinking I could be 221 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: doing other things. I've been sitting here and listening to 222 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: a talk that has nothing to do with what I'm 223 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: going through. 224 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: And more, you're going to have a hoy of kids 225 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: who are going to hear something that you say and 226 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 2: then ruminate over that and getting worry and get. 227 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: More anxious, which goes back to point number one. 228 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: But then you're also going to have a holy of 229 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: kids who are going to sit there and go, what 230 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 2: the heck would he know? 231 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, So fortunately I gave a really great talk and 232 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: I made sure that I accounted for all those issues, 233 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: and nobody ended up with anxiety because they were listening 234 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: to my talk. From what I understand, we got great 235 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: feedback on the talk, and it was engaging enough that 236 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: everyone who didn't have anxiety was still able to benefit 237 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: from it because it was more about strategies for helping 238 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: us to just regulate our emotions, which is quite beneficial, 239 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: especially when you're hearing it from the right person. But 240 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: I just I really want to emphasize this when you 241 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: have this one size hits or program. Most students don't 242 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: have mental health problems. Those who do have serious issues 243 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: do not need this global approach. They need targeted, one 244 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: to one support. They don't want this light touch kind. 245 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: Of Well, you're almost diluting the message, right, So it 246 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: kind of will fit everybody. 247 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: Right across the board. And when you say everybody, we're 248 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: not just we've got to include the neurodivergent kids. We've 249 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: got to include kids that come from diverse cultural backgrounds. 250 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: We know that issues in rural areas are different to 251 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: issues in urban areas. There is so much going on there. 252 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: I just think that doctor Lewis Folks is right. Let's 253 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: talk about the third one really quickly, because I want 254 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: to give parents some solutions, some practical things that they 255 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: can do. The last thing that I want to emphasize 256 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: is that I don't think schools are the right environment 257 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: for this kind of conversation. 258 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 2: I just don't like being half of our children's mental 259 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: health challenges actually a result of. 260 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: School kinda yeah, Like there's so many kids that don't 261 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: feel safe at school because of bullying or because of 262 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: social insecurity or whatever else. And that means that if 263 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: you want them to be vulnerable and have a conversation 264 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: about mental health challenges, it's just inappropriate. In a classroom 265 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: setting where they can't trust their peers, it just doesn't work. 266 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: So to me, they're the Big Three based on what 267 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: I've read from doctor Lucy Folks. And because we need 268 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: to wrap up, our time's done, I just wanted to 269 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: share a couple of things that parents might do with 270 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: these things in mind. If you're in a school that's 271 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: really pushing mental health interventions, at a global level for 272 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: all students. The first thing is that if your child 273 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: is struggling with mental health, you cannot and should not, 274 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: and ideally will not rely on any kind of a 275 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: universal school program for the school says, oh, we've got 276 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: this universal well being curriculum. That's great, but probably not. 277 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: Don't rely on that. You need to seek specific and 278 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: qualified credential help. The second thing is that you're really 279 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: going to benefit from having conversations at home with your 280 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: kids and talking with them about what they're going through 281 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: and helping them to problem solve. Whilever your focus is 282 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: on solving problems and guiding your children and letting them know, well, 283 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: this is a stage that you're going through, and you 284 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: can get through this, and building their resilience, you're going 285 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: to find that you're going to be much more successful. 286 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: And I think the last thing is just that vulnerable 287 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: mental health work when something significant and serious is going on, 288 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: needs a safe and trusting environment, which may or may 289 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: not depending on the school, and your child may or 290 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: may not exist in a classroom setting, So it's just 291 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: worth keeping that in mind. I love that high school 292 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: teachers are now in most states in grade eleven and twelve, 293 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: you can take on psychology as a subject. But quite honestly, 294 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: we could do so much to teach kids about emotions 295 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: without having a PhD or a clinical psychology degree. There's 296 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: so much that we could be teaching kids about relationships 297 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: and about emotions. We're not, and we're packing a whole 298 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: lot of other stuff into the curriculum that's not helpful. 299 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: Teachers with the right qualification, the right training could teach 300 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: stuff that is not about mental health per se, but 301 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: is about life skills, and frankly, it would help the 302 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: teachers as well as helping the students. I wish we 303 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: were heading down that path instead. Politicians, I've got some ideas. 304 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: Feel free to reach out. I reckon we could have 305 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: some valuable and productive conversations. Anyway, That's about it for today. 306 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: I just wanted to share that as a doctor's desk 307 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: and flag it. And this is why I don't teach 308 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: positive psychology much anymore. I really focus on meaningful interventions 309 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: that work with an emphasis on self determination theory, which 310 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: does happen to have the deepest body of research evidence 311 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: underpinning it of all the psychological theories that exist on 312 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: the planet, which is why I'm such a fan. If 313 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: you'd like to know more about the stuff that I 314 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: think will make your kids happier, visit happy families dot 315 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: com dot you and check out the book The Parenting Revolution. 316 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: All right, that's about it for today. Tomorrow we step 317 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: into I'll Do Better Tomorrow and share our wins and 318 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: losses from the week. The Happy Families podcast is produced 319 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: by Justin Rulan Bridge Media. Mimhammon's provides additional support through 320 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: admin and research and so on. And if you are 321 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: a school teacher, or if you're somebody who's involved with 322 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: mental health in schools and you think this conversation is 323 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: intriguing and provocative, please share it around. Click the share 324 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: button and send it to your colleagues and ask them 325 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: what they think, or get in touch with us at 326 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: happy families dot com dot you. Caroline would love to 327 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: book me in to come along and do a special 328 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: session at your school talking about well being for teachers, 329 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: well being for students and what we do know that 330 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: actually works