1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: finding ways to optimize my workday. 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: Today's show is what I call. 7 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Another mixtape episode, where I've looked at a particular theme 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: and I've found some clips of guests that I've had 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: in the past talking about this theme, and the thing 10 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: that I want to explore today is around digital distractions, 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: because I think for many of us, the biggest challenge 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: in getting focused work done is that there are so 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: many digital temptations out there that kind of lure us 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: away from our work. So first up, I want to 15 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: play you a clip from my very first interview on 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: this podcast, which was with Adam Grant. Adam is a 17 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: psychology professor at Wharton and the author of best selling 18 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: books such as Give and Take, Originals and Option b. 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: In this cliff, Adam talks. 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: About things such as why he doesn't recommend going cold 21 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: turkey with digital distractions, and what I found particularly intriguing 22 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: is the rules that he has for checking social media. 23 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: So let's hear about how Adam manages digital distractions. 24 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's funny. I think I've been really 25 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 3: intrigued by the science of self control here, because if 26 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 3: you study self control, one of the things you will 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 3: see in the data is that people with high self 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 3: control actually exercise it less. So if you have really 29 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 3: great willpower, you use less willpower. And it sounds like 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 3: a paradox, but the reason for that is anyone who 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: has good self control recognizes that it's easier to prevent 32 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 3: yourself from getting into a situation where you have to 33 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 3: manage an impulse than it is to manage the impulse 34 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 3: in the moment. It's the equivalent of saying, all right, 35 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 3: I should probably set an alarm clock and then put 36 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: it halfway across the room so that when I wake 37 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 3: up in the morning, I am not tempted to just 38 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 3: hit this news button. And that's a habit that I 39 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: think you can carry throughout your day. And so, you know, 40 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 3: I think there are extreme versions of this that I 41 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: actually don't endorse. I guess you could go cold turkey 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: and say, all right, you know, I'm gonna turn off 43 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 3: all notifications. I'm not going to check any technology. I'm 44 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: going to disconnect myself in the internet whatever I need 45 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 3: to do, and I actually find some of those distractions 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: to be useful mini breaks. So you know, when I'm 47 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 3: stuck on an idea or a sentence when I'm writing, 48 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 3: I'll actually go over to Twitter and check it for 49 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 3: you know, a minute or two. But I limit myself 50 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 3: on a clock, and I also usually have goals for 51 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 3: how much I have to finish before I'm allowed to 52 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 3: go over and check, and so that that kind of helps. 53 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 3: And so you know, it's a simple thing, right saying, 54 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 3: all right, I'm going to aim to use social media 55 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: five to ten minutes a day when I can't be 56 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 3: doing anything else. So you know, I will do it 57 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 3: when when I'm sitting on a flight waiting for it 58 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 3: to take off, or you know, i'll be on it 59 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 3: when I am. I actually end up doing it quite 60 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 3: a bit, you know, in like a left or an 61 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 3: uber a taxi, and you know, otherwise I'll just I'll 62 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: use it as a small reward for making progress on 63 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 3: the things that I think are important. 64 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: I like that, so it's a reward. And then you 65 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: said that you set the clock because where I. 66 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: Can imagine people coming undone is that they go great. 67 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: Adams told me to reward myself with Facebook. I'm going 68 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: to pop on and then two hours later, hang on 69 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: what task was I working on? 70 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 4: Like? 71 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: How does that work? 72 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: Like? 73 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: Are you setting a really noisy stopwatch? 74 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 5: Do you like? 75 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 6: No? 76 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: Look, how does that work? 77 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 4: No? 78 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 3: I just have a time in mind, so, you know, 79 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 3: if it's if it's seven fifty six, I'll say, all right, 80 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 3: I've got four minutes and then at eight o'clock I'm 81 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 3: going to get back to work. And if I fall 82 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 3: short on that, I'm disappointing myself elf, and I start 83 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 3: feeling guilty and that's not pleasant. So next time, I'm like, 84 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: I don't want to feel that way again. Let me 85 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 3: let me just stay on task. 86 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 4: You know. 87 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 3: I will also say, though, I feel like, if you know, 88 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: if if the urge to spend hours scrolling through Facebook 89 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 3: is dragging you away from your work, then your work 90 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: isn't motivating enough. 91 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 4: You know. 92 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: I feel like I actually feel the opposite of impulse. 93 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 3: If I'm if I'm scrolling through Facebook, I'm like, ah. 94 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: But I have this really exciting work to do. 95 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: I want to get back to that. And you know, 96 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 3: I obviously don't think it's practical for every single moment 97 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 3: of every single day to be that intrinsically motivating. But 98 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 3: I think, to you know, to have an enjoyable and 99 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: meaningful work life, it's it's probably worth asking you, know 100 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: that that desire you feel to engage with whatever your 101 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 3: guilty distraction is, how could you actually design your work 102 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 3: so that it creates that. 103 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: So that's how Adam Grant manages digital district as. I 104 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: really do like his rules for checking social media. I 105 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: thought that they were really interesting. I now want to 106 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: move on to Rachel Botsman. Rachel is a world renowned 107 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: expert on technology and trust and the author of best 108 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: selling books Who Can You Trust? 109 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: And What's Mine Is Yours. 110 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: She is a lecturer at Oxford University and has been 111 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: recognized as one of the most creative people in Business 112 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: by Fast Company, and also is one of the fifty 113 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: most influential management thinkers in the world. Here is Rachel 114 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: talking about how she manages digital distractions in her world. 115 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 5: I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it's really difficult, but 116 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 5: this is the most basic advice. The way you start 117 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 5: your day, you will continue. So I caught it like 118 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 5: that monkey brain that jumping right. So if you are 119 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 5: going through the check Twitter, check Instagram, check LinkedIn, check, 120 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 5: email check, blah blah blah, you've put yourself physically in 121 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 5: this racing mode. I mean, I don't understand neurologically what's 122 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 5: going on, but you understand physically. You feel very different. 123 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 5: And so I think this idea. I'm not a believer 124 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 5: that you get everything out the way. You know, so 125 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 5: some people and it works to some people, like I'm 126 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 5: going to do email eight to nine and then it 127 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 5: would be a clean slate. There's usually something in that 128 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 5: email that comes up that you have to deal with, 129 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 5: or that bothers you, or that requires more than five 130 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 5: minutes to answer. So the way you start your day 131 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 5: really sets the rest of the day. And that's I've 132 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 5: become far more disciplined around that. And even like I 133 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 5: can't believe for years my phone was my alarm. It's 134 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 5: such a stupid thing to do, with all due respect, 135 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 5: So it's like, you know, it's like waking up and 136 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 5: having a can of coke there, Like it's just there's 137 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 5: no way I could resist the temptation. And I thought 138 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 5: I was being super efficient because I thought. You know, 139 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 5: if I set my arm for six fifteen, my kids 140 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 5: typically wake up at six forty five, I can do 141 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 5: half an hour of emails and wow, I'm supermum and 142 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 5: then they wake up and everything's clear, and then I 143 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 5: can have their breakfast, make their life. You know, like, 144 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 5: listen to the pace of it. There's no way you're 145 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 5: going to start your day and be able to Yeah, 146 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 5: or some people maybe, but not for me. 147 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 7: Was there a moment in time where you know, you 148 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 7: had your phone as your alarm and you're checking emails 149 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 7: first thing in the morning and I kind of dawns 150 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 7: on you What am I doing? Or was it a 151 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 7: gradual shift? 152 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 5: I think I realized it, but I didn't change the 153 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 5: behavior for a long time. I think I realized it 154 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 5: when I am really short sighted, so I have to 155 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 5: put my lenses into sea and I remember like the 156 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 5: having turning the phone on. I sleep with airplane mode, right, 157 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 5: so at least it wasn't dinging and really and it 158 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 5: was pitched back in the room. My husband's asleep, and 159 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 5: it's like, why I happened to my face? And I'm like, what, 160 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 5: I haven't even put my lenses in you what I mean? Like, 161 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 5: this is not how human beings are meant to wake up. 162 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 5: My feet haven't even touched the ground. And one of 163 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 5: the things I try. You know, I'm not a particularly 164 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 5: religious person, but every morning when my feet touch the ground, 165 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 5: I try and ask myself, like, why am I doing this? 166 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 4: One? 167 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 5: Am I grateful for? What do I want to achieve today? 168 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 5: And even I think that's my one minute mindfulness, that's 169 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 5: all I can do. But it's really you know, when 170 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 5: you come back to the end of the day and 171 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 5: you think, like did I do that? Do I achieve that? 172 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 5: How a balance was I? And it's for me it's 173 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 5: been a form of self reflection that if you keep 174 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 5: missing it, there's probably something physical or time based that 175 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 5: you have to address to Maybe you don't have enough support, 176 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 5: or you don't have enough support the right end of 177 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 5: the day, maybe you're eating wrong. Whatever it is, there's 178 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 5: something structurally you can probably change. 179 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 7: So now I assume you've got an old fashioned a 180 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 7: lamb cluck. 181 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 5: Next I do yeah, And my sons learned how to 182 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 5: work it. So it went like four am the other day, 183 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 5: I was like the phone gotta love that. 184 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh wow. 185 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 7: And so you're saying like it's really important to set 186 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 7: your day up well and how you wanted to flow. 187 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 7: And so with that, what time would you first check 188 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 7: your inbox or Twitter feed or Instagram feed on a 189 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 7: good day. 190 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 5: It's it's different now because I'm not in that writing mode. 191 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 5: It really, I mean, it's it really does switch, right, 192 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 5: So there's no way I stuck to these rules when 193 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 5: I was on the book tour. I mean, you're like 194 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 5: responding to media inquiries. So I think this is one 195 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 5: of the key things is you don't have to be 196 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 5: in this state all the time. But when you're working 197 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 5: on a project that has a massive artifact or just 198 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 5: by design requires concentration, you're going to have to redesign 199 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 5: and restructure your day. Now it looks quite different. So 200 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 5: now I'm actually back into this, Like I'll do emails 201 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 5: nine to ten, but then I won't get into the habit. 202 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 5: I'll turn it off and then I'll probably check it 203 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 5: again around four o'clock. People who know me and know 204 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 5: who need to get hold of me, they will text me. 205 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 5: So that's the thing, Like, there are ways that people 206 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 5: can get hold of you if it's really truly time sensitive. 207 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: So that was Rachel Batsman and I really love how 208 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: she approaches these things. I particularly love how she expresses 209 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: just the stupidity of using a mobile phone as an 210 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: alarm clock. And I know that that is something that 211 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: I changed in my life a little while ago, and 212 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: I will never go back to using my phone for 213 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: an alarm. Next up, we have Matt Mullenwag. Matt is 214 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: a founding developer of WordPress, which is the open source 215 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: software used by over thirty one percent of the web. 216 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: He also found it Automatic, which now employs around seven 217 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: hundred people. Matt has been named one of Business Weeks 218 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: twenty five most influential people on the Web. So over 219 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 1: to Matt to hear about how hey resists digital temptations. 220 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 221 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 8: It's funny because I have friends that are like, oh, 222 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 8: you're so productive. How do you be so productive? And 223 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 8: I feel like the most unproductive person. So my approach 224 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 8: is generally like like a Ulysses, where I tie myself 225 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 8: to the mast, you know, plug my ears so I 226 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 8: can't hear the sirens. And yeah, I find that I'm 227 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 8: way better at planning ahead than actually resisting temptation. So 228 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 8: if I can just close out the apps or it's 229 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 8: not that I'm getting lots of notifications and not looking 230 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 8: at them. Is that I'm just hiding the notifications for 231 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 8: myself so that my brain doesn't even have to use 232 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 8: the willpower to not engage with them. 233 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: And I mean, do you have notifications constantly turned off 234 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: or do you kind of switch them on when you 235 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: are in sood I guess more of a responsive mode. 236 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 8: I have notifications, but they generally don't buzz me, so 237 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 8: the phone doesn't have any visible or you know, I 238 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 8: guess taptic feedback whenever something comes in. And then on 239 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 8: the computer, I'll just generally close apps out, you know, 240 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 8: if it's not relevant, including slacks. Sometimes that's maybe my 241 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 8: biggest distraction because I kind of keep it on when 242 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 8: I'm working or having conversations. But of course then anything 243 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 8: can come in I find as well, Like you know, 244 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 8: it's not necessarily tie myself to the mask, but even 245 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 8: things like if what is closest to me in the 246 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 8: bed when I wake up is the kindle and on 247 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 8: the phone, I'm more likely to read. But if the 248 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 8: phone's on top of the kindle, you know, I'm more 249 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 8: likely to look at the phone. But if I can 250 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 8: reverse that order, you know, it's a bit better. So 251 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 8: just a little hacks like that. And I think it's 252 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 8: good to kind of look at every aspect of your 253 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 8: life and say, Okay, where's something that I can kind 254 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 8: of make it easy to do the thing that I 255 00:12:58,400 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 8: want to do. 256 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 2: I like that. 257 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: What other aspects of your life of your life have 258 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: you made those simple changes that have led to better habits? 259 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 8: Oh, if I have sweets or or things like that 260 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 8: in the house, I don't have them visible, and they're 261 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 8: generally like in a drawer or kind of buried away 262 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 8: a little bit, so I can get them if I'm 263 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 8: entertaining or having a party or really really want it. 264 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 8: But it's not just something that's like staring at me 265 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 8: all day saying eat me, eat me. That's you know, 266 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 8: kind of a common thread that your phone's not buzzing 267 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 8: saying look at me, look at me. The tasty food 268 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 8: is not saying eat me, eat me. Just kind of 269 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 8: out of sight, out of mind. It's not one hundred 270 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 8: percent true, but is very helpful. 271 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. And what else do you do to focus? 272 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: So you're closing down apps that you're not using, and 273 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: the notifications is switched off, like is there anything else 274 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: that you found to be effective to stay focused. 275 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 8: Going offline, it's really great. You know, do this unintentionally 276 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 8: sometimes on airplanes, but then occasionally at home, I'll actually 277 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 8: just turn off the network, the Wi Fi or the 278 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 8: ethernet and like literally unplugging it and then just forcing 279 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 8: myself to look at all the things that are there 280 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 8: in front of me, so start closing down more tabs 281 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 8: than I open, or looking at those files that have 282 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 8: been on my desktop for several months and saying, Okay, 283 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 8: what's going to be the way to do that? Kind 284 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 8: of carving out that time, even if it's unintentional, just 285 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 8: taking really savoring whatever is available to you at the moment. 286 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 8: I find very helpful. 287 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: M And do you still have a playlist to help 288 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: kind of get into flow that you listen to? 289 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 8: So I have a few, kind of I guess at 290 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 8: this point they're like deep house focused playlists that are 291 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 8: just standard ones when title and Spotify that'll go to 292 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 8: because there's no words or very few words. They have 293 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 8: kind of a nice beat behind it. But if I 294 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 8: really need to get in the zone, my general thing 295 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 8: is just picking a single song and having that on repeat, 296 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 8: and that can be really anything. So it can be 297 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 8: pip up, it can be jazz, it can be really whatever, 298 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 8: but just having that on repeat for a while, and 299 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 8: it just has to be a song I like, and 300 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 8: then something often that I really like, and so it's 301 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 8: pleasurable to have it there, but your mind kind of 302 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 8: backgrounds it after the first or second listen. So I've 303 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 8: just found that to be a really effective technique. 304 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: So that was Matt mullin Wegg, and I really love 305 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: how considered and thoughtful Matt is around how he thinks 306 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: about digital distractions and just how he has like quite 307 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: simple kind of hacks I guess to nudge him in 308 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: the direction of having healthy habits and also minimizing unhelpful temptations, 309 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: which I just thought was very cool. The next person 310 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: I want to go to is Sarah Green Carmichael. Sarah 311 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: is an executive editor at Harvard Business Review, where she 312 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: works out what to publish on the site and edits 313 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: the articles. 314 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: That you may have read there. 315 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: Sarah is also the host of hbr's idea Cast podcast, 316 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: which gets over one million downloads every month. 317 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: In this clip, we get. 318 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 9: To hear Sarah talking about the importance of working from 319 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 9: home among a few other things around how she manages 320 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 9: her time and space when it comes to fighting off distractions. 321 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 10: Over to Sarah, so I think the best thing I 322 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 10: do actually is I just work from home one day 323 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 10: a week, and I'm really lucky to have a boss 324 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 10: who's totally on board with that. But to me, being 325 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 10: in a space that has minimal distractions, a space that 326 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 10: I can control. You know, we have an open office here, 327 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 10: which is really great for collaborating, but it's not so 328 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 10: great when you just need to focus. So to me, 329 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 10: I get more done in that one day a week 330 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 10: at home than I do probably and all the other 331 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 10: days combined. When it comes to actually editing. 332 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 6: The other thing that I have just learned about myself 333 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 6: is that I get a ton of editing done on 334 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 6: trains and planes because you're kind of strapped into the seat. 335 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: You don't have Wi Fi. So I actually I try 336 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 2: as much as possible. 337 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 6: If I'm traveling for work, I try to take day 338 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 6: flights so that I can have that time on the 339 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 6: airplane to work. If I have to go down from 340 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 6: Boston to New York, I always take the train so 341 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 6: that I have the four hours on the train to work. 342 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 6: That time becomes disproportionately precious to me. So really it's 343 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 6: about physically removing myself from the distraction of the Internet 344 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 6: and the distraction of other people to really be able 345 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 6: to sit down and focus. 346 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: I like that. I think it was Oscar wild that 347 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: said we can resist everything except temptics. 348 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: So I guess that's what you'll do, is yeah, yes. 349 00:17:59,080 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 4: Not us. 350 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: Do you ever procrastinatee oh. 351 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 6: Yes, oh all the time? And it's I will say. 352 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 6: I try to if I've noticed that I'm procrastinating, I 353 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 6: try to ask myself, why Is it because the task 354 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 6: is hard, I'm not sure if I know how to 355 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 6: do it. Is it because it's unpleasant? Is it because 356 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 6: I'm in a guilt spiral because I've already put it 357 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 6: off for so long that now the thought of starting 358 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 6: just reminds me of how much time I've wasted. You know. 359 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 6: I try to just be a little bit mindful of 360 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 6: that because that usually helps me get over it. Like 361 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 6: if it's an email that I need to respond to 362 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 6: and I just keep putting it off, I just sort 363 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 6: of say to myself, you know, it's only going to 364 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 6: get worse the longer you wait. 365 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 2: But I think we all procrastinate. 366 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 6: I think even those of us who have a bias 367 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 6: to action and get a lot done, there's certain things 368 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 6: that we just, for some reason keep putting off. And 369 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 6: I think that's just that's just human nature. 370 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: I like that strategy though, of kind of doing that 371 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: check in with yourself. Does that almost happen automatically now 372 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: for you or is that like, on a good day, 373 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: that's what you'll do, but on a bad day something 374 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: else will happen. 375 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 6: It's gotten easier over time to do that. That took 376 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 6: a long time for me to learn, because it used 377 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 6: to just be that the sort of certain emails or 378 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 6: certain projects would just sort of linger in the bottom 379 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 6: of my inbox, until suddenly my whole inbox was the 380 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 6: stuff I'd been putting off, which then meant that it 381 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 6: was like too daunting. So I think that's something. And 382 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 6: the other thing that has really helped me avoid procrastinating 383 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 6: is blocking out time on my calendar for certain things. 384 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 6: So one of the things that I often procrastinate is 385 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 6: evaluating new pitches of new ideas for HBr, because anytime 386 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 6: I'm evaluating new pitches, it means I will have to 387 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 6: sit down and write rejections and writing rejection letters is 388 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 6: my least favorite thing to do. So I just have 389 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 6: an hour on my calendar every week that's just for 390 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 6: writing rejections, so that I can just sit down and 391 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 6: just get it done and make myself do it. 392 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: And just move on. So that was Sarah G. Carmichael, and. 393 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: I love what she said about just the importance of 394 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: being able to control your space. And I think that 395 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: it's something that so many people suffer from that work 396 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,959 Speaker 1: in offices where they simply can't control their workspace and 397 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: it just leads to succumbing to all sorts of distractions 398 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: and interruptions and so forth. 399 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: I know, for me, I try to work from home. 400 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: At least two days a week, if not three, and 401 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: I just find that I'm so productive when I am 402 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: out of the office as opposed to in the office. 403 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: The final clip on today's show is from Tim Kendall. 404 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: Tim is the former president of Pinterest, where he led 405 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: global sales, marketing, and product development. Prior to Pinterest, Tim 406 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: was Facebook's Director of Monetization, where he led the development 407 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: of Facebook's advertising business, and during his last year at pinterest, 408 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: Tim began noticing his own bad phone habits. If you 409 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: like not to mention the poor habits of everyone around him. 410 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: And Tim is now the CEO of Moment, a mobile 411 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: app that helps you to use your phone in a 412 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: healthy way, giving you back time for the parts of 413 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: life that matter most. So this is a slightly longer 414 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: clip from Tim because we talked a lot about how 415 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: to manage distractions in this episode, and where this episode 416 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: starts is talking about how Tim wore the exact same 417 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,479 Speaker 1: T shirt, well not literally the same T shirt, but 418 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,959 Speaker 1: basically a T shirt that had the word focus on 419 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: it for four and a half years at Pinterest, and 420 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: we start by talking about what that was all about 421 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: and what focus means to him. Over to Tim to 422 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: hear about how he manages these things. 423 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 4: Johnny Ivers talked about this, the famous designer at Apple 424 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 4: that you know, focus is having three things that you 425 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 4: are just in every part of your body, feel like 426 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 4: you have to do and only picking one. And people, 427 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 4: you know, I think, come up with sacrificial projects that 428 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 4: they don't even care about and they and they tell themselves, 429 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 4: I'm focused. I crossed that one off the list. But 430 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 4: it's hard God, And so it was. It was to 431 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 4: remind other people of bad ideas they as they conceived 432 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 4: of and built things at pinterest, And and it was 433 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 4: for myself because I don't think I battle this a lot. 434 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 4: You know, it's you know, it's not like you wear 435 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 4: a shirt for four years and you all of a 436 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 4: sudden are a focused person. It's a daily struggle for me. 437 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: I want to delve into that because I remember one 438 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: of the things when when we met a few months 439 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: ago over at ted, is that you told me this 440 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: story about how one of the ways that you help 441 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: keep focus on those around you and off like devices 442 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: like your mobile phone, is that you had a kitchen safe, 443 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: which is normally I think designed possibly for dieting, where 444 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: you can lock things away in this safe and not 445 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: be able to access you know, perhaps treat kind of foods. 446 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 1: But you had a routine, and I don't know if 447 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: you still do this way. You talked about locking your 448 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: phone and your family member's phones away for a couple 449 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: of hours. 450 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: Every week night. 451 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: Can you tell me where that is up to and 452 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 1: if I've actually remembered that correctly. 453 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's a good memory. So I it wasn't. 454 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 4: I didn't do this at work, although I did give 455 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 4: the product to a bunch of colleagues who at least 456 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 4: claimed they used it and loved it, but I was 457 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 4: really I mean, and I still struggle today, even though 458 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 4: you know, we'll probably get into it later. The company 459 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 4: I'm focused on now is trying to address this device 460 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 4: addiction issue. I was struggling a lot with my phone usage, 461 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 4: you know, a few years ago. And one of the 462 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 4: things that I did some research on it, and one 463 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 4: of the kind of brute force approaches to people who 464 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 4: that they suggest for people who really have trouble getting 465 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 4: off their phones, especially at night when you're around your 466 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 4: family and you really you want to be present with them, 467 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 4: was this kitchen Safe. I think the company has renamed 468 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 4: the product the the ke Safe, because it really they 469 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 4: want to start to market it not just as a phone, 470 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 4: not just as a device for dieting, not just as 471 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 4: this thing that you put cupcakes into and then turn 472 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 4: a clock on. And you can turn this clock at 473 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 4: the top to an hour, you can turn it to 474 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 4: four days, and it just counts down and there's no 475 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 4: back door and there's no way to get into it. 476 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 4: You just have to wait till the till the clock 477 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 4: counts down and the thing unlocks, and as you say 478 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 4: it was originally designed for dieting, but then it's it's 479 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 4: found this dual purpose in helping people really keep themselves 480 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 4: disciplined around using their device. And so I have used it. 481 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,959 Speaker 4: I don't use it religiously right now. The thing that 482 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 4: it works for me today is I have a little 483 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 4: like my house. I have an office and I just 484 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 4: basically when I leave that office before I go have 485 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 4: dinner with my family, I just leave my phone. On 486 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 4: my best nights, I leave my phone in there and 487 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 4: I don't go and get it until the next morning. 488 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 4: But that's effectively the same thing as putting it in 489 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 4: a kitchen, say from you know, six pm to six 490 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: am or six pm to paid am. And I find 491 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 4: it hard and I go through withdraw but I but 492 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 4: you know, I also think that it's as a meaningful, 493 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 4: meaningfully meaningful impact on my relationship with my kids and 494 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 4: my wife. If I do that and with myself, I 495 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 4: just feel kind of less anxious and less kind of 496 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 4: psychologically toxic if I can take a break like that 497 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 4: from my phone. 498 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what do you do during the day, What 499 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: are your strategies during the day, And perhaps it might 500 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: be a good segue into the the app called Moment, 501 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: which you're nasty. Oh so perhaps for listeners that have 502 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: never come across Moment. And I think there are seven 503 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: million users or it has had seven million downloads, so 504 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: it's incredibly popular. 505 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 4: Can you tell us a bit of a million people 506 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 4: have used? 507 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 508 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 4: So well, I got really, you know, I think through 509 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 4: my own affliction with with phone usage, I got I 510 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 4: started to really develop a lot of passion in my 511 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 4: last year of interest around this problem that I was 512 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 4: having and I was noticing other people have, which was 513 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 4: these these phones are obviously I'm one handing their tremendous tool, 514 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 4: and they do so many remarkable things for us. They 515 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 4: let us order dinner, they let us, you know, avoid traffic, 516 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 4: all this wonderful things. But I think used in excess, 517 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 4: they're really toxic and they're really distracting, and I think isolating, 518 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 4: and I think what we are trying to do at 519 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 4: Moment is give you back your time. So what Moment 520 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 4: is is an app for your phone, ironically that tells you, 521 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 4: helps you assess how much you use your phone, and 522 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 4: then coaches you to really set guidelines around what is 523 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 4: healthy versus unhealthy usage of your phone based on your 524 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 4: personal usage of various apps and then it helps hold 525 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 4: you accountable to the usage that you the usage levels 526 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 4: that you commit to. And so that's the service. And 527 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 4: it was started by a guy named Kevin Halesh about 528 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 4: four years ago, and he and I got connected in 529 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 4: January and I ended up acquiring the company from him 530 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 4: earlier this year and he and he and I are 531 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 4: still working together. He leads all of our product and 532 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 4: engineering efforts and I'm the CEO, and we're trying to 533 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 4: go after this, go after this issue and really help 534 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 4: help give people their time back. And that is it's 535 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 4: interesting we think about how do we know we're successful. 536 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 4: The way we measure how well we're doing as a 537 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 4: company is we literally measure how much time we hand 538 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 4: back to people versus you know, the status quo versus 539 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 4: their baseline when they when they come into into moment. 540 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 4: And as you mentioned, seven million people have used the 541 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 4: product and every day we hand back versus people's sort 542 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 4: of status quote usage, we hand back people forty nine 543 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 4: years of time. So for the folks that have actually 544 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 4: engaged in the coaching programs, which is about a half 545 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 4: million people, those specific people have gotten back on average 546 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 4: about an hour a day of their time. So when 547 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 4: they come to us, they're using their phone three point 548 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 4: six hours a day, and when they go through the 549 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 4: coaching program, uh, you know that they're they're down to 550 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 4: two and a half hours a day. 551 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: So that's quite remarkable. 552 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 4: Seven hours a week of time that you know, we 553 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 4: say they get to now you know, utilize to go 554 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 4: do stuff that matters in their life, not necessarily the 555 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 4: stuff that's urgent and seductive, right that our phone is 556 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 4: so good at putting in front of us? 557 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: And how about for yourself? What does like? What what 558 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: you know, perhaps for the last. 559 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: Year since being involved in moment, and perhaps in your 560 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: last year at pinterest, what what did your phone usage 561 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: look like on a work day? 562 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I really, you know, I think there's Look, 563 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 4: we're all works in progress, so we have good days 564 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 4: and bad days. I'll tell you what my bad days 565 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 4: look like. Man, bad days are are I'm I'm you know. 566 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 4: We talk about there's sort of different personas of people 567 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 4: that we see on moment, and one of the personas 568 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 4: we talk about is a compulsive checker. So these are 569 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 4: people who maybe don't spend you know, like I said, 570 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 4: three four or five hours a day on their phone, 571 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 4: but they still have a compulsion, they feel, they still 572 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 4: feel kind of psychologically toxic. And the reason that they 573 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 4: do is not because they spend so much time on 574 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 4: their phone, but because they pick it up so much. 575 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 4: So these are people that pick up their phone, you know, 576 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 4: one hundred two hundred times a day, which is a 577 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 4: surprising portion of all the people out there that are 578 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 4: that are on their phones. And I my bad days 579 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 4: fall into that camp of picking up my phone, you know, 580 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 4: close to one hundred times a day, checking it for 581 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 4: various things. And maybe I'm responding to text messages or 582 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 4: maybe I'm responding to emails, but you know, I might 583 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 4: I might be it might. 584 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 11: Be an interesting, really interesting news cycle on something that 585 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 11: I'm interested in, and I just keep reading about it, 586 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 11: and it's there isn't really any goal. 587 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 4: Or objective that I'm achieving. I'm just getting sucked in, 588 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 4: and I'm letting myself get sucked in, and I certainly 589 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 4: amn't aware of it. The moment that I'm doing something 590 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 4: that isn't productive doesn't serve any of my long term objectives. 591 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 4: But I'm just going to kind of let myself indulge 592 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 4: you know, it's it's the analog of you know, if 593 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 4: you're if you're trying to be disciplined with eating, you 594 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 4: you splurge, or if you're trying to stand an exercise regimen, 595 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 4: you take the take the day off. And so those 596 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 4: are that's my bad day, my good days. You know, 597 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 4: I can I can leave the phone well my good nights. 598 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 4: I like I said, I leave my phone in in 599 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 4: my in my office and I and I don't pick 600 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 4: it up again until eight eight the next morning. And 601 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 4: during the day, I'm really trying not to use it 602 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 4: for email or texting and and and made what what 603 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 4: I try to what I think the most health usage 604 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 4: is for me is just phone calls when needed, if 605 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 4: there's an incoming call that I need to take, or 606 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 4: looking at my calendar if I'm kind of on the go. 607 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: What determines for you whether you have a good or 608 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: bad day day? 609 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 2: Because I've read that, like you've. 610 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: Got some morning rituals that you do, which I'd love 611 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: to delve into, but like, have you worked out what 612 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: like is there are the things that you can do 613 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: in the morning that set you up to have a good, 614 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: focused day or yeah, like what does it look like 615 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean. 616 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 4: I think. Look, I'm always I always do better if 617 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 4: if I work out in the morning, if I don't 618 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 4: pick up my phone first thing in the morning. I mean, 619 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 4: the longer that I can I can have time that's 620 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 4: focused on kind of thinking and either writing or planning 621 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 4: a product and not getting into the day to day 622 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 4: of one of my inboxes, the better I am. I mean, 623 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 4: I love that you and I were just communicating a 624 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 4: little bit to coordinate for the show. And the fact 625 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 4: that you send a morning out of office while you 626 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 4: do your work, I think is just brilliant. I love it. 627 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 4: I think that I think everybody and when when I 628 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 4: was at Pinterest, one of the things I really wanted 629 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 4: to do, and it would be really appropriate to do 630 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 4: this at moment, So maybe we'll maybe we'll explore it 631 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 4: when we get a little bit bigger. Is create a 632 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 4: dedicated period of time where everybody is offline, just say, hey, 633 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 4: come into work, let's come in and eat. And I'm 634 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 4: like normal people who work do, but but let's do 635 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 4: something different. Let's let's actually turn off the internet, let's 636 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 4: turn off connectivity and and just use that time to 637 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 4: think about the problem at hand, our task at hand 638 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 4: and do focus, dedicated, deliberate work around that as opposed 639 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 4: to satisfying this short term you know, dopamine fueled feedback 640 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 4: loop that that email does so well. 641 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: So that was tim Ken talking about how he stays 642 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: focused and manages digital distractions. And I particularly like the 643 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,760 Speaker 1: discipline of leaving your phone in your home office, which 644 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: is which is something that I'm thinking about experimenting with. 645 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: So that was awesome. 646 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: So that is it for today's mixtape episode. I hope 647 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: that you've found it interesting. I think that all my 648 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: guests have had such interesting and different ways of managing 649 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,879 Speaker 1: digital distractions and temptations in their lives, and I hope 650 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: that there's been something in this episode that maybe you 651 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: might want to apply in your own life. 652 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 2: So that brings us to the end. 653 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: Of the episode, and you probably know what I'm about 654 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: to say next, which is, if you enjoyed this episode, 655 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: or if you're enjoying this show, I would love it 656 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 1: if you could leave a review for it in iTunes 657 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your podcast. You can leave 658 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: a star rating if you like, or you can write 659 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: some lovely words that when I read them there will 660 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,959 Speaker 1: bring a big smile to my face if they're kind 661 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: words obviously, If if they're not, I might not smile, 662 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: but that's okay. I love getting feedback from listeners, so 663 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy the rest of your day and 664 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: I will see you next time.