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Speaker 1: Now I just mentioned the fact that pediatricians have written

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Speaker 1: to the Chief Minister Leofanoguiaro saying that they are concerned.

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Speaker 1: They've written to express their deep concern regarding the changes

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Speaker 1: to the youth's legislation which happened throughout the week. We

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Speaker 1: also know that the AMA, the Australian Medical Association's Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory branch, have weighed in following discussion by the government

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Speaker 1: about recent coronial inquest and the Coroner's office and some

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Speaker 1: of the comments made in that space. Now joining me

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Speaker 1: on the line is the AMA's president, doctor John Zorbis.

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Speaker 1: Good morning to you. Good to have you on the show.

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Speaker 1: Good thank you. Now, the AMA issued a public statement

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Speaker 1: yesterday raising concerns about the government's commentary around the coroner's

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Speaker 1: timelines with some inquest. Can you talk me through the

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Speaker 1: concerns that the AMA's got with the comments that have

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Speaker 1: been made in recent weeks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So the concern that we have with comments is

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Speaker 2: they don't really seem to be related to what the

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Speaker 2: Coroner's putting out and more about the coroner doing their job,

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Speaker 2: and we don't think it's appropriate for politics to be

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Speaker 2: in the space of the coroner. And that's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not just our opinion that this is the law.

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Speaker 2: The coroner investigates death, investigates untimely and unseemly deaths in

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Speaker 2: the NT, and it is our last line of defense

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Speaker 2: when deaths are not explained or occur because of massive

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Speaker 2: systems failures. The coroner needs to be free to do

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Speaker 2: their job. They just need to be able to get

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Speaker 2: their head down and do their job. And that's what

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Speaker 2: Coron Armitage has been doing. So when we heard words

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Speaker 2: like dragging on and uninspiring, I mean, the coroner doesn't

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Speaker 2: make works of art. They do inquests, very powerful ones,

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Speaker 2: I might add.

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Speaker 1: I guess the other side of the argument, which we

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Speaker 1: certainly discussed this morning on the show throughout the week

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Speaker 1: that was is there. You know, we are talking about

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Speaker 1: a public servant ultimately, and that you know that some

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Speaker 1: may feel as though some of these processes are taking

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Speaker 1: a long time and cost a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I agree with you there because I can't

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Speaker 2: get on your show and say we're not funding health

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Speaker 2: properly but also not you know, having accountability in other

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Speaker 2: areas of public money. I completely agree with you there.

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Speaker 2: But you know, let's talk about the dragging on. So

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Speaker 2: the walk in quest, it was an eye watering figure

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Speaker 2: of eight million dollars and took longer than that we

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Speaker 2: would like it to happen. In absolutely, but I think

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Speaker 2: to lay the blame so early in the media with

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Speaker 2: the coroner is not fair to the coroner. If we

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Speaker 2: want to look at that inquest and look at how

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Speaker 2: we might speed things up, how we might spend less. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: we should be spending every public dollar properly. But it's

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Speaker 2: not fair to come out in the media before we've

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Speaker 2: looked at the issue and just start saying that, you know,

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Speaker 2: the coroner needs to be faster. I just don't think

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Speaker 2: that's fair to the coroner, and it certainly doesn't result

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Speaker 2: in good inquests, of which, by the way, the domestic

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Speaker 2: violence in quest that the coroner is done is one

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Speaker 2: of the best I've ever read. It is just an

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Speaker 2: amazing inquest.

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Speaker 1: So from your perspective, I mean looking at that inquest

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Speaker 1: and looking at the recommendations and the findings, you know,

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Speaker 1: from the AMA's perspective, are there areas where you know,

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Speaker 1: you go, all right, this needs to be implemented asap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So it is a long inquest, and there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of recommendations and they are broad and wide sweeping,

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Speaker 2: and there's been some comments that a lot of it

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Speaker 2: is too hard to achieve or is going to cost

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Speaker 2: a lot, and that's true, but we're talking about a massive,

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Speaker 2: massive problem. I mean, in the NT, you know, almost

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Speaker 2: two thirds of all assaults are related to domestic and

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Speaker 2: family violence, and the police force themselves in this inquest

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Speaker 2: estimate that domestican family violence accounts for about fifty to

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Speaker 2: eighty percent of police time, which is just a staggering amount.

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Speaker 2: Averaging women in the NT have forty times more likely

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Speaker 2: than up in hospital because of family violence and death

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Speaker 2: from you know that family violence, the homicide is seven

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Speaker 2: times the national average. And that's the scale of the

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Speaker 2: crisis that we're talking about. As your question, yeah, you

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Speaker 2: go to answer your question about what we need to do.

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Speaker 2: If I could distill those recommendations down, there's inadequate resourcing

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Speaker 2: and funding looks like you know, the estimates are about

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Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty million out of five years, which

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Speaker 2: is a lot of money. But this is a big problem.

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Speaker 2: Coordination between our agencies, between police, health, corrections, workforce training,

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Speaker 2: and measures on alcohol restriction as well. Alcohol is a

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Speaker 2: huge part of this problem.

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Speaker 1: One of the points that the Minister for the Prevention

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Speaker 1: of Domestic Violence, Robin Carl made is she she accused

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Speaker 1: the coroner of not being brave enough to make any

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Speaker 1: recommendations related to Aboriginal culture, and she pointed to examples

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Speaker 1: noted elsewhere in the findings of cultural pressure used as

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Speaker 1: a form of coercive control. I mean, even in what

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Speaker 1: you've just said to me, you've spoken about, you know,

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Speaker 1: the fact that Aboriginal women, you know, they are obviously

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Speaker 1: overrepresented when you talk about domestic violence victims coming in

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Speaker 1: to our hospitals, and you know that is one of

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Speaker 1: the points that the Minister obeyed to me on the

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Speaker 1: show yesterday, and wanting to see some of that leadership

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Speaker 1: in that space.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we agree with the importance of culture. I

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Speaker 2: don't agree with the Minister that there was no recommendation

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Speaker 2: around culture. I think that the culture was referred to

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Speaker 2: in the inquest at several points. And the importance of

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Speaker 2: speaking to communities. I think the coroner demonstrated that by

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Speaker 2: traveling outside of Darwin and delivering these inquests in areas

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Speaker 2: that are more appropriate. The role of culture absolutely is

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Speaker 2: an important one. No matter what culture you're talking about,

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Speaker 2: we are not going to have a single recommendation from

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Speaker 2: the coroner that's going to fix the problems of culture

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Speaker 2: and the interplay with violence. Whatever that culture is, it's

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Speaker 2: something we need to address. It's something the coroner mentions

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Speaker 2: in the inquest and that's a you knows, there's no

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Speaker 2: bullet points for that. That takes a lot of time,

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Speaker 2: a lot of patients, and a lot of discussion with

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Speaker 2: those people who are in this space, those cultural leaders

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Speaker 2: and those elders who know this space.

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Speaker 1: Doctor's orbis, Can you tell me how like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not expecting you to, you know, to reveal anything

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Speaker 1: that's sort of patient confidentiality or anything like that, but

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Speaker 1: I mean, how often are domestic violence victims seen at

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Speaker 1: our hospitals across the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 2: Every day? There is not a day I have worked

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Speaker 2: in the NT where I have not seen a victim

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Speaker 2: of domestic violence at rual Dale Hospital, hand on heart

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Speaker 2: and every day.

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Speaker 1: Your perspective, like, how serious is this issue? From a

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Speaker 1: medical perspective?

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Speaker 2: It's one of the most serious. So, you know, I've

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Speaker 2: been on here talking about the underfunding of health, and

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Speaker 2: I've been talking about access block specifically around aged care,

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Speaker 2: domestic and family violence, and the impact on our community

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Speaker 2: is in that list. It's the same top three. And

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Speaker 2: that's not just you know, you obviously need to talk

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Speaker 2: to people outside health to get the perspective of police

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Speaker 2: and nurses and social workers. But from where we stand

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Speaker 2: in health, this is a huge impact on the health

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Speaker 2: of our community and a huge part of our lifestyle

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Speaker 2: and the NT. This is something that we can't walk

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Speaker 2: past and it's something that's hard. I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: expect the government to be able to fix this with

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Speaker 2: one way initiative. I get that this is a hard problem,

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Speaker 2: but hard problems need good resourcing and good communication.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it time for our government though, to

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Speaker 1: look at doing things differently, to try and look for

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Speaker 1: some you know, for some different approaches.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's been a bit of talk about you know,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing new or nothing brave in this, and new

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Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean better. So for example, we know that

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Speaker 2: alcohol was related to almost every single death that was

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Speaker 2: reported in that inquest. We've recommended the reinstatement of the

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Speaker 2: minimum unit price, and we know that when you charge

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Speaker 2: a minimum of a dollar thirty per standard drink, not

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Speaker 2: a lot, and most drinks are above that price. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: it does make a significant difference to alcohol related harm,

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Speaker 2: especially sales of high volume alcohol, you know, like cask

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Speaker 2: wine and things like that. We know those things make

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Speaker 2: a difference. Now the government disagrees with us on that,

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Speaker 2: we're going to continue to make our case for it.

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Speaker 2: So there's a couple of old things that work well

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Speaker 2: that we can bring back. There's always going to be

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Speaker 2: new things on the horizon, but the best people to

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Speaker 2: talk to are the people in this space. So when

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Speaker 2: we're calling for the establishment of a coordinating body where

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Speaker 2: you've got health corrections, you know, housing at the same

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Speaker 2: table talking about this problem, that's the only way we're

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Speaker 2: going to find initiatives that work. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: spend money on things that don't work.

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Speaker 1: Now. Look, I want to ask you as well this

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Speaker 1: morning about the letter that has been sent to the

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister La Finocchio in relation to the changes the

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Speaker 1: legislative changes when it comes to the Youth Justice Act.

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Speaker 1: Throughout this week, I have got some audio of the

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Speaker 1: Member for Nightcliff cat macnamara, asking this question of the

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister. I'll play it a little bit later this

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Speaker 1: morning when we've got a bit more time, but I

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Speaker 1: do want to ask you. I know that the pediatricians

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Speaker 1: have written to the Chief Minister. They say they're committed

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Speaker 1: to safeguarding the well being and health of children and

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Speaker 1: protecting them from child abuse across the Northern Territory. They've

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Speaker 1: written to express their deep concern regarding the reinstating of

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Speaker 1: spit hoods in youth detention. They the inadequate access to

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Speaker 1: comprehensive pediatric care, including neurodevelopment assessments for children in the

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Speaker 1: justice system, and removing the principle of detention as the

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Speaker 1: last resort doctr zorbis. Obviously, this question was asked in

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Speaker 1: Parliament yesterday. What do you think needs to happen here?

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Speaker 1: What are pediatricians saying to you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, the response from the Chief Minister was pretty

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Speaker 2: disappointing to be honest, and I know you'll play the

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Speaker 2: audio and your listeners can make up their own mind.

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Speaker 2: But effectively the Chief minister' the pediatricians to get back

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Speaker 2: in their wheelhouse. Now. The health of children is not

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Speaker 2: just the pediatricians wheelhouse, it's the whole bloody boat. So

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Speaker 2: what they're talking about specifically and their main concern is

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Speaker 2: the reintroduction of spit hoods. There is an idea that

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Speaker 2: spit hoods help reduce the transmission of infective diseases. That's

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Speaker 2: not true. We know that in the Act in twenty

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Speaker 2: nineteen they were removed because they were ineffective at preventing

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Speaker 2: the transmission of effective diseases. We know that they cause harm.

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Speaker 2: We know that they cause psychological harm. We know there's

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Speaker 2: a risk of asphyxiation and death, a risk of seizures.

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Speaker 2: So where's the benefit And that's the question that the

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Speaker 2: pediatricians have for the Chief Minister is this is a

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Speaker 2: tool that's referred to as torture in other jurisdictions, where

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Speaker 2: the only jurisdiction in the country where they're used. Every

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Speaker 2: other jurisdiction has banned them. It's been previously banned in

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Speaker 2: the NT. It doesn't make sense to bring something in

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Speaker 2: that won't reduce crime but will hurt children.

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Speaker 1: Doctor's orbis people listening this morning will be thinking the

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Speaker 1: benefit is guards not being spat on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I so I'm in this firing line. I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you that I have been spat out at work. I've

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Speaker 2: been punched, I've been kicked, and I can tell you

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Speaker 2: now spihood wouldn't have changed that spin hood is not

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Speaker 2: effective at presenting the transmission of disease. I completely agree

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Speaker 2: that nobody, nobody should be assaulted at work. It's discossed,

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Speaker 2: pleef health, doctor's, nurses, nobody, no matter your title, no

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Speaker 2: matter your job, no matter where you think you sit

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Speaker 2: on the ladder that is society. Nobody should get spat

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Speaker 2: out or attack to work. Completely agree spi Hood's isn't

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Speaker 2: going to do that.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen the new Have you seen what they're

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Speaker 1: what they're proposing, because they're very different to what I

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Speaker 1: thought they were going to look like. They're more like

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Speaker 1: a it's almost like chul or like a fly, you know,

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Speaker 1: like a fly mesh let's see through. It's very different

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Speaker 1: to what I had envisaged and seen in vision, you know,

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Speaker 1: from Don Dale all those years ago.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we've got tools that already work and we

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Speaker 2: already know are safe. So you know, when we went

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Speaker 2: through COVID, we weren't walking around the hospitals wearing spit hoods.

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Speaker 2: We were wearing in ninety five masks which prevent the

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Speaker 2: transmission of airborne disease. You know, we have ways and

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Speaker 2: means and we don't use spit hoods in the hospital,

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Speaker 2: and yet we're able to manage being spat at and

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Speaker 2: being attacked in the hospital relatively well. We could always

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Speaker 2: be doing better, but you know there are ways of

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Speaker 2: doing this without tools that the Royal Australian College of

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Speaker 2: Psychiatrists the Royal Australian College of Physicians both agree cause

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Speaker 2: harm to children. If we want to reduce crime in

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Speaker 2: the NT from a health perspective, we know that spit

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Speaker 2: hoods cause harm.

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Speaker 1: Well, doctor's orbis. I know, look, I we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of victims of crime that listen to these show.

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Speaker 1: So I know that some of them listening this morning

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Speaker 1: may be listening and not agreeing. But I know that

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Speaker 1: you're coming at this from a health pacespect is, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I always appreciate your time, no matter what

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Speaker 1: the topic. But yeah, look, I know that there will

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Speaker 1: be some people that you know that are listening and

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Speaker 1: don't agree with what you've got to say. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you say to those people?

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Speaker 2: So to them, I say, I am a victim of crime.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm here as a doctor on behalf of

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Speaker 2: the a MA to speak about health, and I don't

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Speaker 2: you know the Chief as I said, the Chief ministerervice

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Speaker 2: talking about staying in lanes, and I agree, you shouldn't

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Speaker 2: be you know, I shouldn't have an opinion on the

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Speaker 2: day and ship lift facility that gets broadcast. You know.

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Speaker 2: I get that I'm here to talk about health, but

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Speaker 2: also I'm a Territorian and I live in the same community,

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Speaker 2: and I go to these same places where these assaults

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Speaker 2: I'm reminded of every day, and my own my own

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Speaker 2: space and my own privacy has been invaded as well.

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Speaker 2: And so if I want to fix that, I want

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Speaker 2: to make sure we're spending money and time on things

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Speaker 2: that work. That's what I want. I want this problem

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Speaker 2: fixed as much as anybody else does. And I'm talking

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Speaker 2: on a personal level here, not not as representative. So

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Speaker 2: I want to make sure that we're our money on

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Speaker 2: things that are evidence based and we know reduce crime.

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Speaker 2: And our experts are telling us that spit hoods done

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Speaker 2: in that diagram.

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Speaker 1: Well, I am a president for the Northern Territory. Doctor

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Speaker 1: John Zorbis always appreciate your time. Thank you very much

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Speaker 1: for joining us on the show.

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Speaker 2: Today, Thanks Kettie, appreciate the time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you