1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: finding ways to optimize my work day. Now, today's episode 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: is a little bit different because I thought I would 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: turn the tables and actually share with you some of 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: the tactics that I use in thinking about how to 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: structure my own workday and what I find makes me 10 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: more effective and more productive and just manage my time better, 11 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: so you should do that. I invited my very good friend, 12 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: doctor Jason Fox, who you may have heard of. He's 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: a very influential thought leader, although I hate the term 14 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: thought leader in the world of motivation and leadership, and 15 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: you can find his work over at doctor Jason Fox 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: dot com. 17 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:06,279 Speaker 2: So in this. 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: Episode, I try to get really practical and share what 19 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: a typical workday for me looks like and the strategies 20 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: that I've found helped to turbocharge my output, and also 21 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: some of the things that I'm still struggling to get right. 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy it. This little insight into 23 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: my own life, and without further ado, here is me 24 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: talking about how I work. 25 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 3: Hello everyone listening, this is a very special episode. I've 26 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 3: been a fan amnth of your work for some time, 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 3: and I know that there'll be so many people listening 28 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: to you interview such great innovators on how they make 29 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: the most out of their day, and a lot of 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 3: folks will be curious what is your synthesis? What does 31 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 3: your day look like? So I'm excited to ask you 32 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: these questions. Let's start with the classic what does a 33 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 3: typical morning look like for you? 34 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: Typical morning for me, So I am a lark. 35 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: If we're thinking about chronotype, So I am at my 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: peak in the morning, and I naturally wake between five 37 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: thirty and six am, so and before seven am is 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: like my magical hour between six and seven because my 39 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: daughter wakes at seven. So I typically would do something physical. 40 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: I would either go to the gym or I would 41 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: go for a walk and either listen to nothing or 42 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: sometimes I listen to a podcast on the walk, and 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: after that I've kind of got about an hour and 44 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: a half with Frankie and my husband as well. And 45 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: if I'm doing school drop off, then that kind of 46 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: consumes the seven to nine am, and then from nine 47 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: to twelve I'm in deep work. I'm doing focused work, 48 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: often involving creation or writing or some thing like that. 49 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: And that is a typical morning. 50 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 3: Okay, cool, I want to unpack a few elements there. 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 3: This is exciting, so let's go. Like you mentioned chronotypes before, 52 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 3: I have like a passing familiar familiarity with that. Lark 53 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 3: is there, sparrow is there? Owl is there? Eagle? What's 54 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: it like? Because I know sparrow's fart is apparently like 55 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 3: the earliest part of the day. 56 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: There are three categories, I guess if we're talking about 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: chronotype research. 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: So there's larks, who are the morning people. 59 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: A lark, such a lark, So these are the people 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: that are at their peak in the morning, and they 61 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: are often the kind of people that wait before their 62 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: alarm clock goes off. 63 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: And then there are owls. 64 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: Who are basically the opposite, so they come to life 65 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: at night. And then there Look, I've heard all sorts 66 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: of terms. One that stuck with me is third birds 67 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: for those middle people. 68 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: That are neither extreme larks or extreme owls. 69 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: And of how that works, it is a normal distribution, 70 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: So we've got about I think seventeen to eighty percent 71 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: of the population being lax, around about nineteen or twenty 72 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: percent being ours, and everyone else. 73 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 3: Sits in between normal birds. Yeah, normal birds. Okay, So 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: the alarm process itself, because there are different types of 75 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: ways to start the day, and you mentioned possibly waking 76 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: up just before your alarm. What does that look like 77 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 3: for you? I know that was a phase that you're 78 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 3: training yourself to wake up at a particular time of 79 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 3: the day every day, Like, how does that look nowadays? 80 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: I've had all sorts of problems with sleep, and I've 81 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: throughout my life I've probably seen two or three sleep 82 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: doctors to deal with insomnia. 83 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: I wake a lot during the night. 84 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: I used to have trouble getting to sleep, and so 85 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: I now have really really strict hygiene because I find 86 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: that if I don't, my sleep just goes rubbish. So 87 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm like very regimented to the point of being very 88 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: obsessed with my sleep. So I wake at the same 89 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: time every day, so even if it's by a weakened 90 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: I'm up by six am, and I'll always set my 91 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: alarm for six am. But even if I can sleep in, 92 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: I won't because it's the equivalent of having jet lag. 93 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: If you're always getting up at the same hour, but 94 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: then on the weekend you sleep in. That's pretty much 95 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: like crossing a time zone. For someone that struggles with 96 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: sleep is a really bad thing. I mean, I think 97 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: it's a bad thing for anyone. Get one, No one 98 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: loves jet lag. And also I try to go to 99 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,679 Speaker 1: bed at the same time every night, so I'm generally 100 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: it's not unheard of, but no, I try to try 101 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: to be in bed reading by about nine. Not that 102 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: that's good sleep hygiene, reading in bed, but that seems 103 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: to be fine. 104 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 3: Now you'll get to the end of the day, so 105 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 3: progressing through okay, So alarm goes off. I love the 106 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 3: way that you're constantly experimenting with you with your life. 107 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 3: You're taking in what's what's the best of the research, 108 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: you're testing in your own world. So the alarm goes 109 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 3: off for it doesn't either way. You're up quite early 110 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 3: now this you described the hour as quite magical. This 111 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 3: is before anyone else is awake in the house. Do 112 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 3: you go make yourself a drink or like, do you 113 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: have anything to anchor some some time before you go 114 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 3: off for a walk or is it straight out of 115 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 3: the house for a walk. 116 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't actually like I don't drink coffee, don't 117 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: drink decaf, but it's it's not something I. 118 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 3: Need be terribly proud of. 119 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't. I simply get my exercise gear 120 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: on and. 121 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 3: So it's a brisk wall, it's a brisk walk. 122 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: Or at the gym it's a proper intense workout. 123 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: So I'm wearing my nikes and my exercise gear. 124 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 3: Right. Cool, I'm calibrating because I've got this philosophical approach 125 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 3: to life. I just imagine you know your your hands 126 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 3: are trailing against snacks and flowers and okay, cool. 127 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: So the pedometer's on and I aim to do release 128 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: ten thousand steps every day. 129 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 3: So then presumably there's breakfast at some point. Is that 130 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 3: like you, so you do your intense thing, you come back. 131 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 3: Is your breakfast fairly standard? Yeah? 132 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: I have the same thing for breakfast every day. 133 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: So that's which we cannot talk about. 134 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 3: What I'd love is like because that what extrikes me 135 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 3: is your minimizing decision fatigue fairly early in your day. Absolutely, 136 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: and I know that knowing you, that is by design definitely. 137 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: So when is it When is the first moment in 138 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: your day where decisions start? I mean, presumably also from 139 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: what I know about you, you've already decided what your 140 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 3: deep work is, but the previous day absolutely. 141 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 142 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: So I've got two to do list. I've got a 143 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: deep work to do list, and I've got a shallow 144 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: work to do list, And generally the day before I'll 145 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: just put an asterisk next to the things that I 146 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: want to achieve the next day from a deep work 147 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: and from a shallow work perspective. Okay, so I know 148 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: exactly what I'm going into. 149 00:07:58,520 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: So that that's really fair. 150 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: And it's definitely by design that I try to minimize decisions. 151 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: So in terms of the first decision of the day, look, 152 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: it's probably when I get stuck into work, like, for example, 153 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: if I'm like today, I was finishing off a column 154 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: that I write for Entrepreneur, and so there are a 155 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: few decisions to make there like that that's been the 156 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: last couple of days, like which research shall I reference, 157 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: what should the main points of the article be? So 158 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: I guess they're sort of some of the first decisions 159 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: that I'm making during. 160 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: And that's during the deep work time that is, yeah, 161 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 3: does that then? I mean that particular example seems to 162 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: be that you'd go into the land of the Internet 163 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 3: to find that like that is internet part of your 164 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 3: deep work time? 165 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: It actually is. Yeah. 166 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: I know that some people will remove the Internet from 167 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: deep work time, but for me, I find that. 168 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: I need it for research. 169 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: And I've heard some people, some people talk about, like 170 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: when they're doing writing in deep work, for example, to 171 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: just leave blanks like to go and you should do 172 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: this because of this particular study insert studies. 173 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: You know, insert citation later. 174 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: And sometimes I work like that, But often I want 175 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: the stimulus of reading abstracts of journal articles, for example, 176 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: to be triggering stuff for me. And I'll be looking 177 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: back over past research notes that I've made in epanode 178 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: or something like that. So I but I find I 179 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: have the will powadably discipline with the Internet. 180 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 2: So I'm not really tempted to go on to social media. 181 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,679 Speaker 3: I want to dig into that soon. But like I'm 182 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 3: going chronologically through your day, the to do lists I 183 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 3: was going to ask you about that, is that on paper, 184 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: like or how do you what's your philosophy regarding to 185 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 3: do lists? 186 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 2: So I use wonder list and have. 187 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: I went through a year where I experimented with maybe 188 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: ten different to do list softwares, and I came back 189 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: to wonder list because I. 190 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 3: Just, I say, wunderlist the germ. 191 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: That's nice, excellent. I've never heard anyone call it that. 192 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: But it's quite simple and it's design right. 193 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: It's super simple, and you can have subtasks, which I like, 194 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 1: and you can start things, but doesn't over complicate things 195 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: like some to do list systems are very complex, and 196 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: I don't need complex, but I need more than just reminders. 197 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: So for me, it's really important that I separate out 198 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: my deep work and my shallow work to do list 199 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: because I found when I didn't do that, and when 200 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: I was less obsessed around all this kind of you know, 201 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: spending my time more intelligently and more cleverly, I would 202 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: find that if I had the one to do list, 203 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: like human nature is to do the easiest thing so 204 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: that you can tike it off and have that feeling 205 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: of progress, and the deep work things are never the 206 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: easiest thing, and so they would just kind of stay 207 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: at the bottom of the list and never get done. 208 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: But now because I separate them out, my deep work 209 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: always gets prioritized in deep work time and it gets 210 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 1: done because it's there, and then I don't really dip 211 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: into the shallow work list until the afternoon. 212 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 3: Wow. Okay, so it's almost like a the pastormanth from 213 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 3: yesterday as a kindness to the present, Amantha waking up 214 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: starting the day has already thought worked out what the 215 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 3: focus is. 216 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. 217 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 3: Now there's deep work and shallow work. I remember we 218 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 3: had a brief conversation about this once because I fell 219 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 3: into this trap of really not doing any of the 220 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 3: shallow work, and I tried to recall it as light 221 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 3: work as opposed to deep work, and You're like, NA 222 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 3: call it like create, like a create the distinction between 223 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 3: the two. So tell us your philosophy around the difference 224 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 3: between deep work and shallow work, because the word shallow 225 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 3: almost implies it doesn't really have as much value or 226 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 3: is it not as meaningful? 227 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't love the term shallow work because 228 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: it is it's a bit dismissive. 229 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: I think it doesn't really give it the credit that 230 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 2: it designs. 231 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 3: And as part of us both loves it as well, 232 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 3: because it's like it is that acknowledgment that I mean 233 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 3: that shallow work can consume your whole day if you 234 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: let it. Yeah. 235 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I think at the time of reading Deep Work, 236 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: and I think you might have maybe been a little 237 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: bit like this as well. 238 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: I just had that. 239 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: Moment of insight where I'm like, ah, my days is 240 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: filled with shallow work, and I just fit the deep 241 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: work in around the shallow work. And this was about 242 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: eighteen months ago that I think I read Calnewport's Deep Work, 243 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: and after having that revelation, that was one of the 244 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: turning points for me and really rethinking the. 245 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: Way I designed my work day. 246 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: So for me to get back to the question, so 247 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: deep work are things that require focus where I kind 248 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: of need to be in the zone and at my 249 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 1: cognitive best, like feeling sharp, and shallow work for me 250 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: are things that don't require as much brain power, like 251 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: call Newport would say that they're non cognitively demanding tasks, 252 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: but they can actually be quite fun. Like I enjoy 253 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: getting into my inbox and blasting off emails and responses 254 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: to people because like you're getting that dopamine hit, because 255 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: it's like progress hit after progress hit from each of 256 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: the replies you're sending, each of the things that you're deleting, 257 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: So you know, like, I actually love shallow work time. 258 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: I find it very energizing. 259 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, cool, we'll get to the shallow 260 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 3: work time. I love that, though, the notion of ending 261 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 3: the day with a sense of winning, because sometimes when 262 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 3: you're in the deep work, it's complex, it's ambiguous, and 263 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 3: sometimes I mean, how do you how do you estimate 264 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 3: the time to allocate to deep work? Because sometimes these 265 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 3: things take, in my experience, much longer than we anticipate. 266 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 3: Like how do you how do you get a sense 267 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 3: of that? Or what happens with like, say, you you 268 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 3: have this intention to do this deep work and then 269 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 3: you come past what we're at three hours, You get 270 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 3: to the three hours, and you're not sure if you've 271 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: made progress, Like what happens then? 272 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think of an example of that 273 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: because I feel like I know that as humans were 274 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: not meant to be good at knowing how long something takes. 275 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 3: Yeah that seems like me, but yeah, but. 276 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: I find that that's like the planning fallacy. 277 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: And I find though that I'll often overestimate how long 278 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: something's going to take. 279 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 2: Which is kind of weird. I don't know. 280 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 3: Something right, So right, I love that, But like looking 281 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 3: at this deep work thing itself, because where do you 282 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 3: do this? Like what does this work? Because obviously you 283 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 3: have that magic hour in the morning when you wake up, 284 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 3: but this deep work time is it's got to be 285 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 3: have some element of magic to it or something something 286 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: sacred to this deeport time. So what does it look 287 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: like in your world? 288 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: So I'm very ritualized around the deep work and when 289 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: I start added my deep work routine, which I pretty 290 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: much started at the beginning of twenty and eighteen, I 291 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: remember it really clearly, and I even remember the cafe 292 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: that I was in. I found that I firstly, like, 293 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: my home is great, and I work from home a lot, 294 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: but I find that there's something magical about a cafe 295 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: and the white noise that you get from a busy 296 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,479 Speaker 1: but not too busy cafe. And I also like cafes 297 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: because it feels like you're kind of you're in life 298 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: as opposed to isolated from life. And I find when again, 299 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: like when I'm working on something creative or strategic, or 300 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: I'm doing writing of some kind, it feels quite nice 301 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: to be in the world but still in my own 302 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: space and not being interrupted, which and if I'm in 303 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: the office, I'm interrupted all the time, you know, which 304 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: is fine and I accept that and I know what 305 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm heading into if I'm in the office. But I've 306 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: got about three go to cafes that now it's almost 307 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: part Lovian like I unpacked my backpack, I put my 308 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: laptop and my notebook and my water bottle on the 309 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: table and I just I. 310 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: Start and you've got your your keep cup with your 311 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 3: with your instructions. 312 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: It's like conflict the hot drink instruction. 313 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 3: Well, on that note, I mean, I'm the same. I 314 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: love the cafe experience. There's something that starts to creep 315 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 3: in though in terms of the rent, in terms of 316 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 3: I should probably buy another tea or a coffee or something. 317 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 3: How does that work? Do you just switch up locations 318 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 3: or you in one place for the three hour block, 319 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: or if. 320 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: I need to be in the office, which is located 321 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: in Melbourne, CBD, I've just got the one place that 322 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: I go to. 323 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: But the cafe is almost. 324 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: In the kind of in the foyer of a building, 325 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: and so the baristas don't really care if you're sitting 326 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: at the table for hours, because it's more about the 327 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: takeaway coffee business there, so there I feel no guilt 328 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: and they all know me and so it's all very friendly. 329 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: And then with my with my favorite local place near 330 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: my home. Again I know the owner quite well, and 331 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: again he a lot of his trade is take away 332 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: and catering, and so the cafe is never packed, so 333 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: I don't feel like I'm miss burden on the system. 334 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: So I feel like I've chosen wisely there, And in 335 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 2: some ways. 336 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 3: It's a gift, right because an empty cafe, no one 337 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 3: wants to go there. So I've been seeing someone in there. 338 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 3: You know, we're doing them a favor, that's right. 339 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 2: I'm just a big ad for the cafe. 340 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: Is that a month Rimber? Yeah, sure we should go there. 341 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 2: Yeah we should stay. 342 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 3: Right, So we're in the cafe, You're doing the deep work, 343 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: and crazily you have your Internet turned on and somehow 344 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 3: you're able to manage these distractions. And you mentioned before 345 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 3: social media, and I admire you so much. I feel 346 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 3: like I'm a bit late to the early adopters of 347 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 3: leaving social media, if that convoluted sentence makes sense. But 348 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 3: you've been like, how do you manage digital distractions? Because 349 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 3: even without social media, it's still really hard, like what's 350 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 3: your philosophy and approach there? 351 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: So I gave up Instagram and Facebook quite a while ago, 352 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: probably a year and a half ago, after definitely being 353 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: fairly addicted to both of those platforms. But I think, 354 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: particularly with Facebook, I just became frustrated that it just 355 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: felt like this place to go and boast about your life. 356 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: And I would look at all the amazing things that 357 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: my friends in inverted commas because I don't know everyone 358 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: that well on my Facebook feed we're doing with their lives, 359 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: and I would just feel very insufficient and insecure, and like, 360 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: what the hell. 361 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:42,719 Speaker 2: Am I doing? 362 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 3: Hashtag my clients? 363 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: Yeah all yeah, oh my god, all the humble brags, 364 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: and it would just drive me crazy, and I'm like, 365 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: why why am. 366 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 2: I even on this? 367 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: Like I literally am gaining nothing positive through being on Facebook, 368 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: and I'm the only positive use of it was for like, 369 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: in the last few years, has been communicating with my 370 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: mother's group, who use it as the way that they communicate. 371 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: So it was pretty easy getting off there, and I 372 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: might kind of look at it for five minutes a 373 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: month or something like that. So I haven't deleted my profile, 374 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: but I'm not really engaged in it. And then Instagram 375 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: I find very addictive, Like it's so easy to just 376 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: scroll through beautiful images. There's a lot of humble brags, 377 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: but then if you curate your feed, it can be 378 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: kind of interesting depending on what you're into. 379 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 2: And yeah, I had this. 380 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: I had this moment like halfway through twenty and seventeen 381 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: where I was brushing my teeth one night and my 382 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: timer goes for two minutes on the electric toothbrush, and 383 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: you know, god forbid, I'd be bored for two minutes 384 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: brushing my teeth. So I was scrolling through Instagram and 385 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: I finished brushing my teeth and then I just lay 386 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: in bed and kept strolling through Instagram. And then two 387 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: hours later, I'm like, yeah, oh my gosh, I'm still 388 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: on Instagram. I've just lost two hours of my life. 389 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: And I've bought like this gadget that I probably won't use, 390 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: and I've looked at so much fitzpo and I'm, you know, 391 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: just feeling so not inspired. And I thought that's it, 392 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: and then I just deleted it from my phone. So 393 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: so some of it is kind of like going cold Turkey. 394 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: I feel like email is the thing that that that 395 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: kind of calls me back. That's the thing that I 396 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: still find quite addictive. 397 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 3: So so has that work in your deep work time? 398 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, So in my deep work time, I'm pretty good 399 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: at staying out of it because again it's just it's 400 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: the ritual. And I know on the days it's probably 401 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: one out of five days where I will dip into 402 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: email in the morning and it might be say a 403 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: day where I'm doing a keynote. So my deep work 404 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: ritual's kind of stuffed up anyway. 405 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: But I find like my energy just changes. 406 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: I feel very frenetic and chaotic and completely like the 407 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: opposite to come. Basically, if I dip into email, now, 408 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: like my energy is completely altered, and. 409 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 2: So knowing that that's enough to kind of keep me out. 410 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: But otherwise, I also I love the app Freedom, which 411 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,719 Speaker 1: can just lock you out of anything that you need 412 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: to be locked out of. So I find that sometimes 413 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: I'll use that in the afternoon. 414 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 3: And I feel like there's a slow but growing response 415 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: to this whole addiction thing with screen time and the 416 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 3: Apple iOS telling you how many hours you've put in there. 417 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: So I think people are slowly getting there that it's 418 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: baked into some business models that you know, this addiction thing. Anyway, 419 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 3: that aside, you've got some things in place to help 420 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 3: you manage that time. I do want to talk you 421 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 3: mentioned before when you have a keynote, and I worry 422 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 3: sometimes with these these this kind of this this perfect 423 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 3: rituals that it becomes a little bit unrealistic some days. 424 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 3: So a day where you do have travel to do, 425 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 3: what how do you switch modes for for those types 426 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 3: of days? What does that look like? 427 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: Look? 428 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: It kind of kind of depends on what it is 429 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: that I'm delivering. 430 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: So the main client work that I do now, I 431 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 2: used to. 432 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: Do a lot of workshops, but I don't really run 433 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: workshops anymore. I mainly just do keynotes speaking And so 434 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: if I'm doing client work, it will be speaking at 435 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: a conference or a company event or something like that. 436 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 3: And so. 437 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: How that impacts my day really comes down to the 438 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: time of day that I'm speaking. So if my keynote 439 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: is after lunch, then my day kind of goes along 440 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: kind of like normal, and then my keynote just thoughts 441 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: into the afternoon, and that's really lovely. What I do 442 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: like though, is most of my keynotes are unfortunately not 443 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: in Melbourne where I live, and I love plane travel. 444 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: I find it's so productive, even though they are putting 445 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: Wi Fi on more and more flights. Now that's a 446 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: little bit annoying, but I just, yeah, I find that 447 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: I'm just so productive on planes. I can just smash 448 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: out a lot of stuff because it's the ultimate place 449 00:22:58,359 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: to not be interrupted, I find. 450 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 3: Right, okay, cool, So yeah, I like that. Now, if 451 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 3: you were doing deep work and you're coming to the 452 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 3: end of it, there's a temptation, Oh I'm on a roll. 453 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 3: I just keep going this. Are you disciplined about when 454 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: you transition from deep work and close that off or 455 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 3: do you stay on the roll? Or how does that work? 456 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 3: How do you transition from deep work to shallow work? 457 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 3: Is that where you have lunch or. 458 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a bit messy actually, Like normally I'll have 459 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: a couple of things that I want to achieve, and 460 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: then I'll achieve those. But sometimes it'll be eleven am 461 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: and generally I try to not engage with shallow work 462 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: until lunchtime. But often what I'll find is that i'll 463 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: kind of it'll be late morning and I'll be like, 464 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 1: I've done the deep work that I want to do. 465 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: So I think I'll just go into shallow work mode 466 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,239 Speaker 1: now and be okay with that. 467 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: Do you do you have a stretch of a walk 468 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 3: or anything or is it literally just ah done? And 469 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: then open up the windows. 470 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: And yeah, I do try to move like I'll try 471 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: to do it a short walk or have a snack 472 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: or something like that, some kind of state change if 473 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 1: you like. 474 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 3: Okay, well, speaking of state change, since then, how do 475 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 3: you end your workdays? I mean, because in our game 476 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 3: it's remember times, it's so easy to end up working 477 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 3: after dinner and or how do you how do you 478 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 3: end how do you how do you switch off? 479 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 2: Yeah? 480 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: I really struggle with this because I talk about this 481 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: like in my keynotes and I've written articles about this 482 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: about how ideally you should end your day. And there 483 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: are a few things that you should do. For example, 484 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: you should do what I refer to as write a 485 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: too done list, So record what are the what are 486 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: the projects where you've made meaningful progress, because that that's 487 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: a great way of you know, feeling. 488 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 2: Engaged in your work. 489 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: And I know that expressing gratitude to other people is 490 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: a really great way to boost happiness and feelings of 491 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: well being so that's really good. 492 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 3: Can I ask what does that look like? Because sometimes gratitudes, 493 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,239 Speaker 3: you know, it's it's a it's a it's popular at 494 00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 3: the moment, but I'm not sure what is it, what 495 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 3: it looks like, It just how does it look. 496 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: It's often just an email, So it might be like 497 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: if I read a great book, I might write to 498 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: the author and say, hey. 499 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 2: I really loved your book. 500 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 501 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then it might be to a teammate. 502 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: Although that's even really more spontaneous when when I'm expressing 503 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: gratitude to teammates, because it will sort of be in 504 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: the moment when something happens. But sometimes there sort of 505 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: will be more thoughtful ones where I'll be like, I've 506 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: been thinking about that person or I've been thinking about 507 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: that thing that I've consumed, and I really want to 508 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: give some positive feedback there. 509 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: So that's what gratitude looks like for me. 510 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: I know. 511 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 3: Calen Newport says something like he has this shut down, 512 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 3: complete robotic voice that he kind of does at the end. 513 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 3: You do your vunderalist for the next day, Yeah, do 514 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 3: you have any kind of quirky thing done? 515 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: I wish I did, and I love I love that 516 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: what call Newport writes about that. 517 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 2: But I found that I'm. 518 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: Actually really lacking in discipline when it comes to shutting 519 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: down my day. Like I feel like the ends to 520 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: my work days for the most part, are still really messy. 521 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: Like I'll kind of shut down and then I'll spend 522 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: time with Frankie after school or after work, and then 523 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: we'll have some dinner and I'll read her a bedtime 524 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: story and then by which time it's about seven o'clock. 525 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 1: And then sometimes I just want to finish up a 526 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: few things and I'll go back to the computer and 527 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: then like I should get off my computer now, And 528 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: I'm always off my computer. 529 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 2: By like an hour and a half before bedtime. That's 530 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: the rule. 531 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: And again that's with the sleep hygiene obsessive nature that 532 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: I've got. 533 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: But yeah, I still struggle with that. 534 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: Even though I give advice about that, I haven't cracked 535 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: that in my own life. Having that clean shutdown cool. 536 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 3: Well, maybe maybe a future interviewer of you or bounce 537 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 3: the question back as listeners might here and some progress 538 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 3: in that regard. I mean, I like we've kind of 539 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 3: paced through the day here, but there might be some 540 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 3: gaps that I've missed here. I do want to ask 541 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 3: if you have any favorite time management or productivity apps 542 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 3: or tools that you use that we might have missed 543 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 3: in that or anything else through the day that that 544 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 3: you think might be might be nifty for folks to 545 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 3: know about. 546 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: I like freedom that I think that that is the 547 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: most powerful thing that I've seen in terms of helping 548 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: to manage time. 549 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 2: And freedom is in the app that shuts you. 550 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, just just freedom in general as an apstoke concept. 551 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: Freedom is in the app because you just it takes 552 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: away the discipline, like it takes away using up you 553 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: will power muscle, because it's doing that for you. Like 554 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: I love that Oscar Wild quote, I can resist everything 555 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: except temptation. So I think if we can find things 556 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: to remove the temptation, that's really fantastic. 557 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: There's there's a couple I've just I've. 558 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: Found this great email client software however refer to it 559 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: called Superhuman, which like there's a waiting list to use 560 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: it even though it's a paid service, and it's made 561 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: doing email a whole lot faster and a whole lot 562 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: more fun, and it kind of uses like it's really 563 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: good at recognizing natural language for commands and it just 564 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 1: makes everything faster. 565 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: So I love that. 566 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: Actually got put onto that by one of the guests 567 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: on my show, Tim Kendall. And another thing that I 568 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: started using, I think from the same interview, is a 569 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: calendar app called Woven, which uses use artificial intelligence to 570 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: pick up on emails where you're talking about scheduling something 571 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: and then it will notice that and it will help 572 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: you schedule that without having to go back and forth 573 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: with the person. 574 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: Like it kind of does it for you. So I'm 575 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: loving those two things at the moment. 576 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 3: Wow cool, I mean, and here we are doing this 577 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: podcast right, this is one of a whole bunch of 578 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 3: projects that you have going. It's deceptive in the amount 579 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 3: of work it takes to publish a good podcast, Like 580 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 3: what's your approach for making these? Like how do you 581 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 3: how do you prepare for these podcast interviews? 582 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: So I I was it was funny because I just 583 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: I had this interview this morning with. 584 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 2: The woman Jocelyn k Gli who. 585 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: Hosts Slowly Yeah, and I heard and one of the 586 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: things we're talking about her is her podcast and how 587 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: she makes that and about twenty hours of time going 588 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: to each episode, and so that. 589 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: Made me reflect like how many hours go. 590 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: Into and like the interview episodes of how I work 591 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: and I reckon it's it's probably up there. 592 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: It's it's probably up there in the fifteen to twenty 593 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: hours per episode. That's of your time, that's of my time. 594 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: And then I'm actually lucky enough, this is actually your 595 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: father daughter projects. So I work with my dad on 596 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: all the sound editing and production. 597 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 2: So he then does his thing. 598 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: I'll kind of mark up the edits and he'll do 599 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: all sorts of clever things to the sound quality. Which 600 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: is such a lovely father daughter project to have. 601 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: But it's very yeah, it's very time to seeming I 602 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: spend I spend a lot of time thinking about who 603 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: to approach for the show. 604 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: Like it's I think because the podcast have been going 605 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: now for a few months and I now probably get 606 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: a handful of people every week approaching me to be 607 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: on the show. But I kind of like to go 608 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: out there and you know, pick people that I know 609 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: about that I'm quite familiar with their work and that 610 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: I want to kind of go behind the scenes and 611 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: understand how that's all happening. And so but I still 612 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time probably the most extreme. 613 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: I remember my very first interview was with Adam Grat, 614 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: and I'm very familiar with his work, but still in 615 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: preparation for the show, I reckon, I probably spent seven 616 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: or eight hours like researching inverted commas Adam Grant, so 617 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: like I listened to a few hours of interviews with 618 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: him to understand what are the sorts of things that 619 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: he talks about. And I do this with all guests. 620 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: I'll always listen to interviews that they've done before or 621 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: read interviews because I feel like one of the things 622 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: that I like to do with this podcast is try 623 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: to uncover areas that they're not talking about all the time. 624 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: And because I'm generally not talking about the content of 625 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: what the guest is producing or doing, I can often 626 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: sort of find some different things that they haven't spoken 627 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: about before, which I think is just more interesting. I 628 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: think it's a bit dale if I'm just sort of 629 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: uncovering the same old things, all right. 630 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 3: Well, in the spirit of that, then what productivity, advice, 631 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 3: advice and inbirded commas do you find that you have 632 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 3: a bit of an allergic reaction to, Because you know 633 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 3: there's lots out there, but when you hear it, You're like, oh, 634 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 3: that just sounds really lame. That just sounds well, I 635 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 3: can't imagine how that would work, or that's really not 636 00:31:58,520 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 3: for me. 637 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: Nothing to mind off the top of my head. I 638 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: can certainly think about productivity advice that is quite commonplace 639 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 1: that I've tried that that hasn't worked for me. Like, 640 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: for example, there's there's the touch at once rule where 641 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: when you're doing something like checking email, ideally you just 642 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: read the email once and you reply, or you archive, 643 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: or you delete or you do whatever. But but for me, 644 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: often I find that we like with some emails, I 645 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: can do that and that's easy, but with. 646 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: Others, I'm like, no, I kind of want to incubate 647 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:34,479 Speaker 2: on that. 648 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: I need to reflect And even though I could blast 649 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: off for response, now I think I'm just gonna deliberately 650 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: stop and slow down. I feel like my problem in 651 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: general is that I naturally move too fast, and I 652 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: am certainly like feedback that I've got from my team 653 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: over the years, for example, is sometimes you would benefit 654 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: from just slowing down, And so now I try to 655 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: add a few usually do things to slow myself down. 656 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: Like today, there was this decision that I had to 657 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: make a work decision with a couple of others, and 658 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, I just want to make it now, 659 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: But instead I'm like, I emailed the two members of 660 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: the team that were involved in the decision, and I'm like, 661 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: we need to make a decision about blah, let's work 662 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: out all the tasks that we have to do and 663 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: how long that's going to take, and then let's connect 664 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,719 Speaker 1: in twenty four hours when we've had a little bit 665 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: of space to think about that, and let's make a 666 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: decision on it then. 667 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 2: And that really that was going against the grain for me, 668 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 2: because I'm like. 669 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: Let's just smash out a decision now, guys. But that 670 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: is not good good self aware? Yeah, well, look, I 671 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: haven't had it for that long, that self awareness. I've 672 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: only sort of really, you know, had that for the 673 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: last year or two. 674 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 3: But it's interesting because there's always a weakness of strength, 675 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 3: and so what is actually a strength in you does 676 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 3: cost a bit of a shadow, but you're aware of that. 677 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 3: The other enigma I find is the fact that you're 678 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 3: wearing an Apple watch right now. Now. Classically people would say, oh, 679 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 3: no distractions all the time. How have you managed to 680 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 3: have that be an integrated piece, given that you've got 681 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 3: deep work and all this focus going on. 682 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I turn off notifications, so I'll switch 683 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: it on to flight mode during deep work time. So 684 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: pretty much till lunchtime it's on flight mode, and then 685 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: it will sometimes come back in the afternoon, but sometimes I'll. 686 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 2: Just leave it off for me. 687 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: The Apple Watch is more I'll use it for fitness 688 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: tracking stuff. So as I said, I'm very motivated to 689 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: do ten thousand steps a day and i think I'm 690 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: on like a fifty day streak or something like that, so. 691 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 2: I'm not losing that no way. So that's my go to. 692 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: And also when I'm listening to podcasts and stuff, it's 693 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 1: just nice to be able to control it from the watch. 694 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 3: So I've got two final questions. The first is one, 695 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 3: was there any questions that you wish I had have 696 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 3: asked or that? Knowing knowing some of your audience and 697 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 3: the clients and you work with some very impressive folks, 698 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 3: what do you think it might be on their mind 699 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 3: that they might wish that I'd ask you? What's that question? 700 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: I feel like with feedback I get. 701 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: From listeners, a lot of them work in organizations where 702 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: they don't have as much control over their like what 703 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: their day to day diary looks like as they would like. 704 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: And I also get this question when I'm doing keynotes 705 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 1: on the topic, like what can I do if I'm 706 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: not in control of my diary? 707 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: And I think it's. 708 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: About thinking about, well, how do you start to incrementally 709 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: change things, and like with the concept of deep work 710 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: for example, and doing deep work in the mornings unless 711 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: you're an hour and which cats do it at night? Like, 712 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: I feel like there's just some really positive conversations that 713 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: can be had with bosses out there to go, hey, 714 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: right now, I'm in back to back meetings. 715 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: You're needing me to be in X, Y and Z meetings, And. 716 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: What the trade off there is is that I don't 717 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: have time to be doing deep focused work on this 718 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: particular project. So can you please make a decision how 719 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: do you want me spending my time? 720 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 2: And I mean, what boss is going to say? 721 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: No, No, please attend all the time wasting meetings that 722 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: we've got around here, and just don't worry about that focused, 723 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: really impactful project that you're trying to get stuff done on. 724 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: So I feel like people need to be talking about 725 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: this with their bosses where they do feel like they're 726 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: at the mercy of you know, their boss or their 727 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: organization or the culture there, and they need to be 728 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: challenging those norms. 729 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 2: And I know that's hard when you're not the boss. 730 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 2: But there are some really great conversations that I think 731 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: can take place. 732 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 3: What I love watching you describe that, which will be 733 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 3: hard for the folks listening to. Here is how you 734 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 3: gestured when having that conversation pointing to the meetings that 735 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 3: we have during the day, and I'm gesturing it to 736 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 3: it now. But it's a station where you can actually 737 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,760 Speaker 3: literally bring evidence to the manager. I dare say and say, look, 738 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 3: this is the calendar at the moment, this is the 739 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 3: number of meetings. Is this the best use of my time? 740 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 3: You know? 741 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? 742 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 3: I love that. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I can I 743 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 3: can imagine a lot of folks. Bet It's quite a 744 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 3: brave conversation, but it's an important one. Yeah. The final 745 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 3: question I have for you is I always, I always 746 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 3: love gifting folks, and I wish I had prepared you 747 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 3: with this before. And I'm sorry for putting on this pop, 748 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 3: but I love for folks to be thinking about if 749 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 3: you were to gift folks, the listeners with a question 750 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 3: for them to incubate on, or percolate on, or just 751 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 3: have running in the background something that might help to 752 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 3: reveal new answers for them. Is there any question that 753 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 3: comes to mind as a as that might be a 754 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 3: bit of a gift at this particular moment in time 755 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 3: for them, and I can I can pad in with 756 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 3: more stuff if it might help. 757 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: I think. I think what comes to mind is is 758 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,359 Speaker 1: thinking about how are you designing your day? 759 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 2: Because I think that it's a question that we just 760 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: don't ask ourselves. 761 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: We just like resort to the default and we get 762 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: to work and we look at our diary and we're like, 763 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: what's on for today? It's whatever's in the diary, and 764 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,879 Speaker 1: generally what's in the diaries other people's priorities and other 765 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: people's stuff. So I think people can ask themselves, you know, 766 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: how can I think about actually designing my day in 767 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:23,800 Speaker 1: a way where I'm taking control? 768 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 2: And I think that some interesting answers can come from that. 769 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 3: So wonderful. I love it. Doctor Amantha Imbert, thank you 770 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 3: for allowing me to jump onto your podcast to ask 771 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 3: you these questions. It's been a joy. 772 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 2: Thanks Jays, thank you. Hello there. 773 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed today's episode and hearing about me 774 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: share some of my insights. I hope there was some 775 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: useful stuff in there that you might want to try 776 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,800 Speaker 1: and go and a play in your own working life. 777 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: And as usual, if you liked today's show, and if 778 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: you're enjoying How I Work in general, I'd love you 779 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: to leave a review, and even better, maybe tell one 780 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: or two of your friends about the show who you 781 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: think could benefit from some of the insights and strategies 782 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: that myself and my guests discuss in each episode of 783 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 1: How I Work. So that is it for today, and 784 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: I will see you next time.