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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, I wanted to feel like I was competent in

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Speaker 2: making my own choices, but because I wasn't given the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to do that, it meant that I actually started

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Speaker 2: to doubt my own ability.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Every now and again we have a conversation on the podcast,

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Speaker 3: not about little kids, not about medium kids, but about

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Speaker 3: big kids, the biggest kids of all. Today is the

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Speaker 3: day where we dive into what it is to work

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Speaker 3: through the letting go process. In response to a message

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Speaker 3: that came through to podcasts, It's podcasts with an s

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Speaker 3: at happy families dot com dot podcasts at happy families

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Speaker 3: dot com dot you for any questions that you have

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Speaker 3: for us, we'd love to answer them. My name is

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Speaker 3: doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy Families dot com,

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Speaker 3: dot you and Channel Parental Guidance, parenting expert and co hosts.

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Speaker 3: I met with Kylie, my wife mum to our six kids. Kylie,

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Speaker 3: we've said goodbye now or moved through the process of

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Speaker 3: quote unquote letting go to two of our kids, and

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Speaker 3: our third one has just turned eighteen. She's finishing year

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Speaker 3: twelve this year, so we're right there for number three.

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Speaker 4: We're kind of getting a little bit of practice at

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Speaker 4: this right.

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Speaker 2: It is such a confronting space to be in that

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Speaker 2: first time.

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Speaker 5: But does it get better?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, way easier.

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Speaker 5: I think it does, but it's still it's still hard.

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Speaker 4: Do you know what? I would literally use the word grief.

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Speaker 3: It felt like as we as we watched our eldest

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Speaker 3: daughter emerge into adulthood, start making all of our own decisions,

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Speaker 3: leave the nest, then go and get married, it literally

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Speaker 3: felt like we were, I'm going to say grieving. It

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Speaker 3: was like saying goodbye to a part of our life

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Speaker 3: that we were never going to get back. And we

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Speaker 3: really struggled through it for many months.

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Speaker 4: It was hard.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it really was. It really was. It's so multifaceted

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Speaker 5: because you're not just letting go of a person. You're

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Speaker 5: letting go of dreams and aspirations that you may have

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Speaker 5: had for your child. You're letting go of life the

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Speaker 5: way you thought it would happen. You're letting go of

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Speaker 5: you know, close relationships that while you still.

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Speaker 2: May maintain a relationship with them. It's changed. It's changed significantly.

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Speaker 2: There's no longer you know, kind of child to adult relationship.

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Speaker 2: It's now adult to adult relationship.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and even letting go of things like walking out

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Speaker 3: of your bedroom and seeing them in the kitchen every morning,

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Speaker 3: because once they are adults, once they've actually moved out

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Speaker 3: of the house, that changes. The expectation changes, the interaction changes.

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Speaker 3: Let me read the actual question that came through from Kelly,

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Speaker 3: who said, do other parents worry about how to let

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Speaker 3: go of their eldest? My oldest will be sixteen next year.

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Speaker 3: I'm so overprotective. At what point do we let them

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Speaker 3: make mistakes and learn from them. I think this is

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Speaker 3: really curious as well, because I reckon the experience of

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Speaker 3: letting go and letting kids grow up and make their

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Speaker 3: own decisions. I think it's going to be different for parents.

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Speaker 3: It might even divide along gender lines.

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Speaker 4: I'm not certain.

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Speaker 3: I don't have any research on this, but my sense

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Speaker 3: is that it's a different process for mums and dads.

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Speaker 3: And whether you're letting go of a son or a daughter,

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Speaker 3: I can't help but think that that experience is going

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Speaker 3: to be different.

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Speaker 5: Well, and I think from child to child, it will

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Speaker 5: be different.

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Speaker 4: You know, some children are some kids you're just ready

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Speaker 4: to say goodbye to. Is that what you're saying, No,

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Speaker 4: that's not what I was going to say.

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Speaker 5: But some kids are born independent.

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Speaker 2: It feels like from the moment they arrive, they just

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Speaker 2: want to do life on their own. And then there

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Speaker 2: are other kids that are a little bit more cautious

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Speaker 2: and they kind of, you know, hold on to your

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Speaker 2: coattails for a little bit longer as well. And so

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Speaker 2: each child brings their own personality to the floor and

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Speaker 2: with that comes, you know, either a confidence from a

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Speaker 2: parent or a little bit of anxiety around what it

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Speaker 2: will look like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 3: So I reckon, we need to give Kelly some tips,

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Speaker 3: some ideas, some ways to navigate this this period. She

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Speaker 3: still got some time, right, child is only sixteen at

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Speaker 3: this point, not quite grown up. Started to really spread

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Speaker 3: the wings and try to branch out. Though there's mixing

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Speaker 3: metaphors branching out and spreading wings. I'm so sorry for

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Speaker 3: doing that. So let's talk about a handful of things

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Speaker 3: that we need to.

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Speaker 4: Focus on to help.

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Speaker 3: I know you've got a couple, and I've got a

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Speaker 3: couple as well, let's do one or two just now.

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Speaker 3: They will take a break and come back after the

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Speaker 3: break with a few more.

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Speaker 4: What's your first one?

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Speaker 2: Going through this for the first time, the biggest shift

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Speaker 2: for me that made all of the difference was remembering

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Speaker 2: what it felt like to be a sixteen year old

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Speaker 2: and what I desperately wished my parents would give me

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Speaker 2: but never did.

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Speaker 3: To more about that, when you were sixteen, what did

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Speaker 3: you want and if your parents gave it to you,

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Speaker 3: would that have been wise?

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Speaker 2: I wanted to feel like I was competent in making

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Speaker 2: my own choices, but because I wasn't given the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to do that, it meant that I actually started to

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Speaker 2: doubt my own ability in making good choices. I actually

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Speaker 2: started to wonder whether I was capable of making good choices.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really important, a really powerful idea, actually, because

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Speaker 3: the more controlling we are, the more over. There's actually

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Speaker 3: research that shows, as Vanderbruggen in twenty fourteen did this

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Speaker 3: big analysis of a whole lot of studies and found

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Speaker 3: that when parents become overprotective, when parents are increasingly controlling,

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Speaker 3: what that does is it raises their anxiety. Like the parents'

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Speaker 3: anxiety goes up, and it also raises the child's anxiety.

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Speaker 3: There's this relationship between control and protection and anxiety in

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Speaker 3: both parent and child. But it also ties in with

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Speaker 3: that idea of competence, Kylie. When you feel anxious, that

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Speaker 3: means that you're not trusting in yourself, you're not trusting

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Speaker 3: in your own ability, You're not trusting your child, and

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Speaker 3: they're not trusting in themselves, and so that feeling of

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Speaker 3: competence capability that is undermined.

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Speaker 4: What a great idea.

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Speaker 3: I know, however, that if my parents had given me

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Speaker 3: everything that I wanted at sixteen, if they gave me

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Speaker 3: all the freedom and autonomy that I wanted, that would

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Speaker 3: have ended badly. I was unwise. I would have made unsafe,

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Speaker 3: unhealthy decisions. And so their restrictive manner, not that they

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Speaker 3: were particularly restrictive, but they still they still monitored, they

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Speaker 3: were still around, they were still involved and assisted with

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Speaker 3: the development and creation of structure and boundaries.

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Speaker 4: For me, that was important. It made a difference.

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Speaker 3: So I think that there is this balancing act that

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Speaker 3: Kelly's kind of zeroing in on.

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Speaker 4: I want to protect, but I know that they need

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Speaker 4: to let go.

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Speaker 3: But I need to let go, but I can't let

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Speaker 3: go of everything right off the break A couple of

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Speaker 3: other ideas from Kylie and my two big ideas about

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Speaker 3: how we can help our kids to make their own mistakes,

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Speaker 3: live their own lives, and launch from the nest not

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Speaker 3: at sixteen, but perhaps a couple of years later as

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Speaker 3: fully functioning, thoughtful, considered, strong, caring adults.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 6: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 6: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 6: of disciplined as a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 6: with love, compassion, and you find it now at happy

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Speaker 6: families dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 5: It's a Happy Families podcast, The podcast for the time

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Speaker 5: poor parent who just wants answers. Now, I'm wondering, justin

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Speaker 5: if you've got any suggestions on how we might help Kelly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a couple of things that have come

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Speaker 3: up for me. So when I think about this question

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Speaker 3: do we worry about letting go? My response is it's

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Speaker 3: a process. If you start thinking about letting go at

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Speaker 3: the age of sixteen or at the age of eighteen,

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Speaker 3: in some ways you're going to be unprepared. It's kind

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Speaker 3: of like, how do you prepare a teenager? Or how

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Speaker 3: do you prepare your kids to be teenagers? You start

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Speaker 3: by talking to them when they're two and three and

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Speaker 3: four and guiding them and teaching those values and principles,

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Speaker 3: because by the time they get to twelve, you don't

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Speaker 3: tend to teach them as much after that. So it's

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Speaker 3: a process, and a really important one. It starts at

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Speaker 3: I don't know, one or two, when they start crawling,

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Speaker 3: and then you take them to the park and they

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Speaker 3: want to go up the slide and you've got to

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Speaker 3: let go of your anxiety so that they can climb

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Speaker 3: up the ladder even.

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Speaker 4: Though they might fall and hurt themselves.

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Speaker 3: Or when you take them to school and they're three

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Speaker 3: or four or five or whatever age it is for

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Speaker 3: preschool or KINDI or big school or whatever, and you're

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Speaker 3: stepping into that again that you remember what it feels

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Speaker 3: like to say goodbye to a child for the first

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Speaker 3: day of school. It's so hard the first time you

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Speaker 3: do it, and maybe even the second time. By the

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Speaker 3: time you get to number six, it's not quite so difficult,

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Speaker 3: but it's hard. But when you start the process of

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Speaker 3: letting go early and live into it knowing that at

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Speaker 3: some point these small letting go experiences are going to

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Speaker 3: lead to the big one. It makes things easier.

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Speaker 2: I often think one of the things that parents are

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Speaker 2: most scared of is, you know, this idea that in

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Speaker 2: making themselves redundant, that they'll actually lose the relationship that

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Speaker 2: they have with their children.

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Speaker 5: The reality is it will change. It's got to change.

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Speaker 5: You want it to change. But if we're able to

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Speaker 5: do this in such a manner that we leave our

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Speaker 5: children feeling like they're trusted and they're competent and they're capable.

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Speaker 5: What we actually have found in our own lives is

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Speaker 5: that our children come back, and they come back in

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Speaker 5: such a beautiful way. They're desirous to be in our space.

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Speaker 5: They want to hear our perspectives. They want to know

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Speaker 5: how we would do things, And while they might not

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Speaker 5: necessarily take that advice on board and do what we've

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Speaker 5: told them, they still seek it out. They want to understand.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I love how you've said that.

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Speaker 3: One last thing that we should mention just as we

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Speaker 3: wrap this up. Eric Erickson, one of the great developmental

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Speaker 3: psychologists of the last century, highlights that as we move

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Speaker 3: through different stages of life, we confront different crises and

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Speaker 3: around our lescens there's an identity crisis that occurs. As parents,

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Speaker 3: our job is to stand supportively on the side as

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Speaker 3: our kids figured their way through that crisis. And if

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Speaker 3: we don't, if we're the ones that dive in and

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Speaker 3: fix things, if we're the ones that tell them how

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Speaker 3: it needs to be, if we're the ones who are

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Speaker 3: overprotective and making sure that everything happens just so, we

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Speaker 3: actually stunt their development. And a lack of resolution to

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Speaker 3: that crisis means that it continues into the stage, in

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Speaker 3: the next stage and the next stage of their life,

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Speaker 3: which is why we have so many adults who behave

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Speaker 3: like children because they've never really resolved those crises in

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Speaker 3: their lives from earlier on.

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Speaker 2: You know, as I was thinking about the conversation that

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Speaker 2: we would have today, I was reminded of what we

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Speaker 2: used to do with our children when they were younger,

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Speaker 2: When they started crawling and they started you know, exploring

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Speaker 2: the house. I would actually take the couch cushions off

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Speaker 2: and put them on the floor so that they could

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Speaker 2: climb on top of the couch and they could come

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Speaker 2: down safely. And you know, doing that meant that the

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Speaker 2: couch wasn't so high to reach, so it was really

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Speaker 2: achievable for them. But it meant that if they lost

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Speaker 2: their balance and fell, I didn't actually have to be

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Speaker 2: right there to catch them because the cushions would provide

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Speaker 2: soft landing. And so as our children get older, it's

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Speaker 2: about providing the scaffolding to help them make healthy and

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Speaker 2: save choices.

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Speaker 3: Just listening to you say that reminds me of the

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Speaker 3: whole Do we help the butterfly out of the do

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Speaker 3: we help the chicken out of the egg? Doing that

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Speaker 3: cripples it. It's not healthy. This is precisely the process.

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Speaker 3: It reminds me. I wrote about this in my book Misconnection,

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Speaker 3: Why your teenage daughter hates you, expects the world and

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Speaker 3: needs to talk. In the conclusion, I wrote this in

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Speaker 3: Doctor Lisa de Moore is a claim book about American

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Speaker 3: teen girls Untangled. She developed the metaphor of a swimming pool.

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Speaker 3: Imagine your teenage daughter is in a swimming pool, she says.

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Speaker 3: In this metaphor, you are the concrete pool ledge. Your

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Speaker 3: daughter can hold on to you when things get rough

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Speaker 3: out there in the water, catching her breath.

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Speaker 4: Taking time to recuperate. You as the pool edge, are there.

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Speaker 3: To support her when things get too much. The water

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Speaker 3: is the world in which we live. Like any good swimmer,

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Speaker 3: your daughter wants to be out in the water, playing

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Speaker 3: and diving and splashing around. She wants to be part

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Speaker 3: of the action. Doctor de Moore then notes how this

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Speaker 3: plays out in real life. As your daughter matures, she

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Speaker 3: reaches a point where she begins to grow out of

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Speaker 3: her childhood. The older she gets, the bravest she becomes,

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Speaker 3: venturing further and further from the wall for longer and

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Speaker 3: longer periods. By her early high school years, she's so

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Speaker 3: busy with her friends, schoolwork, or extracurricular activities you sometimes

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Speaker 3: feel you're disconnecting from her, or perhaps misconnecting. She acts

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Speaker 3: like she doesn't need you, but your daughter does need you.

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Speaker 3: At some point, something happens. Usually it seems small to us,

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Speaker 3: but it's big to your daughter. Perhaps she was dunked, kicked,

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Speaker 3: or affected in some way that left a feeling like

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Speaker 3: she'd taken a wipeout. Maybe it was friendship hassles, boy drama,

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Speaker 3: is a failed test, identity issues, or mental health challenges.

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Speaker 3: Her world comes crashing down she grabs for you the

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Speaker 3: pool edge. Safe, reliable, and ever present. You keep things secure. Contained.

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Speaker 3: With a hot chocolate in her hands and tears streaming

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Speaker 3: down her face, she sits cross legged on the couch

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Speaker 3: and shares her heart with you.

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Speaker 4: She might even ask for advice.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps she asks you to hold her like you used

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Speaker 3: to when things got big and scary and she felt

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Speaker 3: out of her depth. When that happens, you exult in

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Speaker 3: the closeness. Your little girl is back. She's talking to

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Speaker 3: you about her feelings and her heartache. She's eagerly listening

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Speaker 3: when you speak. She craves your embrace, wisdom, and physical presence.

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Speaker 3: It feels though everything is back the way it should be,

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Speaker 3: the way it always was. Your best friends again. Then

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Speaker 3: she pushes off from the wall, unexpectedly and hard. Why

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Speaker 3: would she do that? Because she's recovered. She feels strong

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Speaker 3: enough to swim again. You gave her the support and

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Speaker 3: strength she needed. You were her safety, and now she

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Speaker 3: feels strong. It's time to explore. She wants to return

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Speaker 3: to the pool and swim. The quickest way back into

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Speaker 3: the deep water is to push off with both feet.

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Speaker 4: This can hurt. Perhaps she ignores you.

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Speaker 3: Maybe she tells you to leave her alone and stop

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Speaker 3: asking so many questions, or maybe she picks a fight

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Speaker 3: with you because you're depriving her of autonomy.

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Speaker 4: And you you're left smarting. It all felt so good.

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Speaker 3: Why couldn't it stay with both of your clothes together,

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Speaker 3: Because pulse are for swimming. As doctor Demore describes, in

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Speaker 3: our daughter's mind, lingering feels babyish, which is just about

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Speaker 3: the last thing that any normal teenager wants to feel.

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Speaker 3: Clinging to you quickly becomes as uncomfortable for your daughter

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Speaker 3: as it is pleasantly nostalgic for you. She rushes back

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Speaker 3: to the work of parting from childhood with an abrupt,

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Speaker 3: sometimes painful shove. If you're the parent, and this is

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Speaker 3: specifically for Kelly, whether you've got a son or a daughter,

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Speaker 3: if you're the parent of an adolescent or pre adolescent child,

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Speaker 3: you probably understand how it feels.

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Speaker 4: To be swimming pooled.

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Speaker 3: But as we need to understand, this is normal, even

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Speaker 3: healthy behavior. As our daughters continue to chart their course

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Speaker 3: towards adulthood, it's not personal. She's becoming independent, strong. Our

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Speaker 3: job is to save those times that she holds onto

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Speaker 3: the edge and remember the pool doesn't exist without the wall.

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Speaker 3: It's just that for our daughters, it's not about the wall.

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Speaker 3: It's about them swimming for all their worth, immersed, exuberant, strong,

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Speaker 3: independent and living fully.

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Speaker 4: So Kelly, I hope that helps to answer your question.

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Speaker 3: I hope that it's useful for any parent of a

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Speaker 3: teenager who started to get older and push for independence.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast comes together because of the great

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Speaker 3: work of Justin Rulan from.

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Speaker 4: Bridge Media and Craig Bruce, our executive.

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Speaker 3: If you'd like more info about making your family happier,

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Speaker 3: we would love for you to join us. You can

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Speaker 3: get involved with this via email podcasts at Happyfamilies dot

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Speaker 3: com dot You leave us five star ratings and reviews

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Speaker 3: at Apple Podcasts. When you do that, Apple's algorithm pushes

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Speaker 3: the podcast out in front of other people so they

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Speaker 3: get to find out about it and find out how

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Speaker 3: they can make their family happier. And if you would

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Speaker 3: like more info, find it at Happy Families dot com

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Speaker 3: dot AU