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Speaker 1: Hello, on Welcome.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families Podcast with me Doctor Justin Coulson,

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Speaker 2: the podcast for the time poor parent who.

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Speaker 1: Just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, there's been turmoil and up people right around the world,

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Speaker 2: and today I'm joined by Luke and Susie, your husband

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Speaker 2: and wife radio duo. They've got three kids of their own,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to be talking about all of the

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Speaker 2: turmoil that's been going.

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Speaker 3: On, Doctor Justin. We're raising rebels. I would have thought

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Speaker 3: that that would be the opposite to what you're teaching

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Speaker 3: us how to do.

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Speaker 2: We've had so much going on globally in the aftermath

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Speaker 2: of the death of George Floyd, the African American man

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Speaker 2: who had a police officer kneeling on his neck for

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Speaker 2: something like nine minutes before he passed away, saying I

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Speaker 2: can't breathe. This has created a firestorm of protest and

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Speaker 2: controversy and rioting and looting, certainly in the United States,

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Speaker 2: but it's come to Australia. It's been a global thing,

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Speaker 2: and I've had so many parents saying, well, how do

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Speaker 2: I talk to my kids about it?

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Speaker 1: And what do I do?

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Speaker 2: I had several parents who were saying, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: I've got teenagers and they wanted to show up to

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Speaker 2: the protests that were held in capital cities around Australia

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Speaker 2: over the last weekend. And I thought, this is a

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Speaker 2: vexing situation for parents to be in well.

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Speaker 3: In particular because for months I've been talking to my

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Speaker 3: eleven year old in particular about social distancing and the

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Speaker 3: importance of doing the right thing and actually looking after

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Speaker 3: others and caring for those in our community by not

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Speaker 3: spreading this unnecessarily like that's been what I've been drilling

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Speaker 3: into him. And then there's these crowds of ten and

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Speaker 3: twenty thousand people that aren't social distancing, and so there's

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Speaker 3: this inconsistency. So how do I have this conversation? Because

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Speaker 3: I want my son to stand up for those who

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Speaker 3: don't have a voice and to be a part of

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Speaker 3: making change. But this is a debate where people had

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Speaker 3: different opinions and I don't want to just say, well,

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Speaker 3: this is what you have to believe, but I want

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Speaker 3: to equip him to be able to explore these significant

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Speaker 3: angles of what's going on.

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Speaker 2: I think about rebellion and how people respond to it. Generally,

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Speaker 2: what I've found is that for the most part, there's

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Speaker 2: a strong desire to shut it down. Force creates resistance.

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Speaker 2: You've heard me say it again and again. And it's

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Speaker 2: kind of interesting when we're looking at what it means

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Speaker 2: to be a good citizen right now where we've got

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Speaker 2: coronavirus and this need for physical distancing. That's what it

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Speaker 2: means to be a good citizen. But there are many

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Speaker 2: people who feel that to be a good citizen right

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Speaker 2: now means to go out in protest and to call

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Speaker 2: for equal rights, to create an environment where everybody feels

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Speaker 2: safe and those who may have been marginalized, those who

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Speaker 2: have been marginalized, actually know that their lives do matter.

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Speaker 2: I was really inspired actually by three rebel girls in

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Speaker 2: Detroit in the United States. They were fifteen, sixteen, and

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Speaker 2: seventeen years of age, and the names are Angel, Ariana

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Speaker 2: and Mary, and they were sending some text messages to

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Speaker 2: one another about everything that.

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Speaker 1: Had gone on.

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Speaker 2: Next thing, you know, they became the organizers of a

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Speaker 2: more than one thousand strong march that went through their

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Speaker 2: local suburbs. It wasn't an inner city thing, it was

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Speaker 2: an outer suburbs thing. And these teen girls who are

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Speaker 2: rebels sort of turn their frustration with the status quoi

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Speaker 2: into one thousand strong voice for change. But I think

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Speaker 2: there's a really important difference here, Luke and Suzi between

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Speaker 2: being a reflexive rebel and a reflective rebel. And this

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Speaker 2: is what I talked about in my Ted talk a

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Speaker 2: couple of years ago in Melbourne. A reflexive rebel is

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Speaker 2: the you can't tell me what to do, it's my

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Speaker 2: life kind of rebel. It's the stereotypical teenage rebel without

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Speaker 2: a cause. Now, it's also worth mentioning that no rebel

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Speaker 2: is truly without a cause. It's just that sometimes we

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Speaker 2: don't know how to find the cause. But that kind

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Speaker 2: of rebellion, if it's not handled carefully, ends up rupturing

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Speaker 2: relationships and causing anger and pain.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's because the.

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Speaker 2: Focus on the reflexive rebel, you know, it's a reflex action.

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Speaker 2: So the focus for the reflexive rebel is all about

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Speaker 2: myself rather than others and how I'm being affected and

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Speaker 2: how unjust everything is for me. So in some families,

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Speaker 2: being a reflexive rebel might lead to getting grounded.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: In the workplace, it might lead Yeah, it might lead

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Speaker 2: to being fired. But in the community, being a reflexive

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Speaker 2: rebel I think leads to the riots and the looting

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Speaker 2: that we've seen, Whereas a reflective rebel rebels by challenging

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Speaker 2: the status quo, breaking rules constructively and creating positive changes

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Speaker 2: as a result of that rule breaking. But this is

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Speaker 2: the kind of rebel that chafes it inequality and intolerance

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Speaker 2: and unkindness, and rebels against this world that's created injustice.

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Speaker 4: So I think, stand even when no one else is

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Speaker 4: standing with them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's it now.

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Speaker 2: Now, the reflective rebel actually encourages perspective and dialogue, whereas

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Speaker 2: the reflexive rebel creates this circumstance that really shuts that down.

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Speaker 2: And it's the reflective rebel. So if we look at

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Speaker 2: it in a workplace, because you know, rebellion in the

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Speaker 2: workplace has been trendy for a few years now, it's

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Speaker 2: the reflective rebels that are the innovators and the ones

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Speaker 2: that are creating progress and change. And in the community,

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Speaker 2: I think this is where we see the mass social change.

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Speaker 2: So to get back to Luke's question, how do we

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Speaker 2: encourage because look I'm rephrasing your question, but essentially, what

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Speaker 2: I'm hearing you say, is how do we encourage a

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Speaker 2: reflective rather than a reflexive kind of rebel. How do

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Speaker 2: I help my kids to be the kind of kids

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Speaker 2: that know what their values are and stand up for

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Speaker 2: them in the face of adversity to create a better world.

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Speaker 3: Well, absolutely, and for him to do that because it's

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Speaker 3: what he he believes and what he is reflecting on,

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Speaker 3: and not just because that's what Daddy told him. And so,

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's eleven, so a lot of what he's

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Speaker 3: going to believe is still based on what we teach.

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Speaker 3: But I'm trying to prepare him for a time when

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Speaker 3: he can think on his own right And where does

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Speaker 3: that start? Does that start in these moments?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I reckon it does. And I'm just going to give

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Speaker 2: three ideas too that I think will be helpful. The

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Speaker 2: first idea is, and you've heard me say this many

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Speaker 2: many times, we get curious, not furious. And this is

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Speaker 2: kind of the same as with my three e'es. This

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Speaker 2: is the explore steps where we see a child who

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Speaker 2: wants to rebel or who is confused because there's now

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Speaker 2: this situation that they're confronted with where they're thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: do I I don't I?

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Speaker 1: Do I step in? Do I make a noise? Do

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Speaker 1: I step out?

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Speaker 2: And what we do is, instead of telling them what

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Speaker 2: we think, we lean in, avoid the lecture and instead

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Speaker 2: say you seem to feel really strongly about this, or

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Speaker 2: you seem to be really confused about this. We let

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Speaker 2: them make up their own minds. So let's say we've

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Speaker 2: got a child who says, I want to go to

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Speaker 2: the protest, so I hate what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Did you see that video?

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Speaker 2: I can't believe that it's happened, and they're really emotional

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Speaker 2: about it, and we might.

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Speaker 1: Say I did see the video.

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Speaker 2: Really it really made me stop and think about how

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Speaker 2: awful some people can be in the world. What was

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Speaker 2: it that really irritated you? Tell me why you feel

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Speaker 2: so strongly, and so we're going to give them the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to share with us rather than us telling them

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Speaker 2: how to feel and what to do.

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Speaker 1: The second step is that we want.

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Speaker 2: To actually teach our kids how to think. Now Again,

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Speaker 2: if we look at the three is this is essentially

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Speaker 2: the explain step. So we might need to offer some

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Speaker 2: really wise counsel. If we've got a child that says,

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Speaker 2: I saw what happened, and I'm joining the protest and

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go and smash the windows in the mall,

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Speaker 2: and you know I'm going to go on riot, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to go on loot. And we might say, well,

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Speaker 2: I have some ideas that might be helpful if you're

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Speaker 2: planning on going and protesting. Can I share them with you?

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Speaker 2: And what you might do is, instead of explaining your perspective,

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Speaker 2: imagine if you ask them questions to invite them to

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Speaker 2: consider alternative views. Like I know that you want to protest,

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Speaker 2: and I know that you want to be aggressive in

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Speaker 2: the protest because you're so emotional, But how might that

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Speaker 2: decision be seen by or by the law or by

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Speaker 2: your friends, and what might the outcomes be in terms

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Speaker 2: of safety, or health or relationships. So what we're actually

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Speaker 2: doing when we ask these questions is we're not moralizing.

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Speaker 2: We're not moralizing. We're helping them to develop an understanding.

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Speaker 2: And then the third one is that we empower. And

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Speaker 2: you know this, You've heard me talk about it a

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Speaker 2: million times, our child's been heard. We've explored appropriate boundaries

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Speaker 2: and limits, we've collaborated on what it might look like.

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Speaker 2: And then we say, well, where to from here, or

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Speaker 2: how can I help.

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Speaker 3: It strikes me that what you've just walked through is

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Speaker 3: so beautifully wise, but so painfully rare in our current world,

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Speaker 3: or seemingly so. And I think about Drew Brees, the

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Speaker 3: NFL quarterback who stated that he thought it was offensive

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Speaker 3: for people taking a knee and offensive to the flag,

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Speaker 3: and he had grandparents who served in the military. And

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Speaker 3: on the back of his opinion that were stated, there

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Speaker 3: was a lot of public backlash from some of his teammates,

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Speaker 3: but also from anybody and everybody in the public. And

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Speaker 3: they talked about getting death threats and getting aggression, and

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Speaker 3: then Drew Brees and his wife came out and they

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Speaker 3: changed their mind. Because these guys inspired me by the

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Speaker 3: fact that on the back of the backlash they could

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Speaker 3: have easily blocked out the aggression and anger and the

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Speaker 3: reflexive rebels that were actually giving them the hardest time.

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Speaker 3: But instead they stopped and they had conversations, and they

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Speaker 3: talked to his teammates who were of color, and said,

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Speaker 3: explain to me why what I said has triggered such pain,

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Speaker 3: And they did, and they came out and through tears,

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Speaker 3: he and his wife said, we've changed. We understand stuff

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Speaker 3: now that we never understood when we made that statement

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Speaker 3: a couple of days ago, and it was just such

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Speaker 3: a breath of fresh air. And they've copt criticism for changing,

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Speaker 3: and now that the hates coming from the other side.

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Speaker 1: Of the debate.

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Speaker 3: But I was so inspired by people who were willing

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Speaker 3: to listen to the opposite opinion that was angry that

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Speaker 3: they could have easily shut out and asked some questions

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Speaker 3: rather than purely made statements.

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Speaker 1: Everything that you've just walked us through was what.

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Speaker 3: They seemingly did in this situation.

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Speaker 2: When we lean in and get curious, not furious, we

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Speaker 2: may actually not change our mind from time time, but

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Speaker 2: every now and again, maybe we will. Maybe we'll say, wow,

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Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about it like that, or well, I

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Speaker 2: can see why you feel so strongly, or Okay, if

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Speaker 2: this is what you're going to choose to do, I

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Speaker 2: won't stand in your way. But can we talk about

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Speaker 2: ways that you can be safe and healthy while you're

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Speaker 2: involved in it. As parents, our job is not to,

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Speaker 2: especially once they become teenagers, not to own. We don't

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Speaker 2: own our children. It's not our job to dominate them.

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Speaker 2: Our job is to support their autonomy so that they

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Speaker 2: can become reflective people of depth. And I can't help

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Speaker 2: but think, Luke and Susie that if we sit down

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Speaker 2: and have these kinds of conversations with our children, they're

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Speaker 2: going to be far more effective in describing and articulating

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Speaker 2: what it is they believe. They'll work out what their

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Speaker 2: values are because we're having these conversations with them. I

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Speaker 2: get so frustrated when I see people at a protest

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Speaker 2: the interviewer says, so you know, what are you here,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, we want justice, Well tell me more

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Speaker 2: about that, and they've got nothing left or they've got.

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Speaker 1: That three word slogan.

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Speaker 2: I love her when I hear somebody who's articulate and

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Speaker 2: who can say I'm here because of this and this

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Speaker 2: and this and this and by the way, here's the

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Speaker 2: evidence and here's and we get our children to that

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Speaker 2: point by inviting them to understand all the perspectives and

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Speaker 2: work out safe, healthy ways for them to proceed with

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Speaker 2: what they believe because they actually believe it, and not

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Speaker 2: just because it's trendy or somebody else is doing it.

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Speaker 4: We really appreciate you having this conversation with us and

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Speaker 4: the idea of raising children who understand what they think,

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Speaker 4: what they believe, and then can articulate that it feels

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Speaker 4: incredibly empowering and powerful for the next generation. Doctor Justin Coulson,

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Speaker 4: thanks so much for your time.

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Speaker 2: If you've enjoyed the podcast or found it helpful, could

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Speaker 2: you please do something for me? Pop into Apple Podcasts

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Speaker 2: and leave a rating and a review. Your reviews help

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Speaker 2: up the people to find the podcast and make their

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Speaker 2: families happier. Received this review that came through from Starry

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Speaker 2: six two four five stars. Highly recommended as an early

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Speaker 2: childhood teacher, I have no hesitation in recommending doctor Justin

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Speaker 2: Coulson to families for caring, practical parenting support and advice.

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Speaker 2: As a father of six, he has practical experiences with

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Speaker 2: all ages and he keeps it real in inverted commas.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Starry six twenty four you're a

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Speaker 2: recommend and review made my day and hopefully it will

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Speaker 2: help other families to find the podcast and make their

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Speaker 2: families happier as well. For more information on how I

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Speaker 2: can help, visit Happy Families dot com dot a you,

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Speaker 2: or you can visit my Facebook page.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Justin Colson's Happy families,