WEBVTT - The Parole Decision 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.080 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returns guilty 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:08.480 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.119 It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:12.480 absolutely really coming. 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:13.280 Blood on his clothing. 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.160 The day after the alleged a tomp. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:16.560 On a show a mud bank and it fits through 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:16.960 a river. 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.200 Basically, I think most of the people are used to me, 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:20.600 there are good people. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.280 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.360 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:29.880 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.440 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.240 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.879 Amy Maguire and I'm. 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:43.040 Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service. 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:47.160 And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:52.080 peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners. 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.480 Now our regular listeners will be aware that we've been 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:01.560 waiting for news on Kevin's latest parole application that was 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.319 submitted some time ago, and we told you we were 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:09.640 working on that over the Christmas break. Today we can 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.560 now reveal that we have news on that outcome and 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.480 we've finally received a letter from the Queensland Parole. 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:19.520 Board moan, what does that? 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.759 Let us say, It's. 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.880 A two page letter that is sent to Kevin and 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:31.559 it's also forwarded to his legal representatives as well, and 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:36.600 it begins by highlighting largely what was placed in the 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:42.199 application on Kevin's behalf, but ultimately it rejects his application 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.280 for parole, and the long and the short of that 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:49.960 is that for now, that means Kevin will remain inside 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.760 Capricornia Correctional Center. 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:58.360 Now, just for our listeners knowledge, was this the first 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.400 time Kevin was up for for or how far along 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:02.920 is he in this. 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:03.760 Sort of process? 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.639 Okay, So Kevin's been up for parole quite a number 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:12.960 of times and each time he's been rejected, and those 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:18.040 rejections have been based largely on different reasons. There's a 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.600 few commonalities in there, but they've largely been rejected for 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:26.040 different reasons. And what I can say is that we're 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.760 narrowing down what the Parole Board are wanting of us, 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.040 and we're really down to just one last sticking point. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:35.919 So does it. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.200 Say that in the letter? Does it give you any 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:40.680 sort of explanation as to why he's been knocked back 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:41.160 this time. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.799 Look it does. I think one thing to acknowledge is 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.760 that the Parole Board was very impressed by the support 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:55.120 of the Warabinda community, the Rockhampton community, and particularly the 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:59.400 elders of the Worabinda community who showed their support in 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:04.119 a letter on behalf of Kevin, and that was accepted, 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:09.600 acknowledged and seen as a very good step forward. There 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.240 was quite a number of other issues in terms of 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.520 the Mimosa Healing Center that they have at Warabinda and 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:20.040 their willingness to offer support to Kevin. So I think 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.000 it's important for people to understand who are listening that 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:28.679 it's not as if Kevin would be released and that's it. 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.120 There is a huge network of support in place for 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:36.960 Kevin upon his release. That starts with his family and 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:41.880 his closest friends, and it extends through to professional help, 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:48.000 help from the indigenous community in Warabinda and in Rockhampton, 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.640 its support from the elders, and there's also a number 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.080 of other things we have in place in terms of 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.000 the sort of work Kevin wishes to do. The programs 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.400 that he has seccessfuly completed, so he has done a 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.480 great deal of work to meet the requirements of the 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.920 Parole Board, and we're really down to just this one 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:16.080 sticking point. But unfortunately for Kevin, and it's particularly unfair 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.239 that he has gone through this process a number of times. 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.719 And I think people should take that in mind that 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.440 Kevin's maintained his innocence for more than twenty five years 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:33.200 and yet because of issues, largely of technicalities, his parole 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.000 has been refused quite a number of times. 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.040 So when we're talking about parole, particularly in this context, 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.560 it's not a system that a lot of people understand, 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:44.960 is it. 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:49.720 No, it's very complicated, and I think one thing our 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:55.160 listeners and everybody needs to understand is that Queensland system, 0:04:55.360 --> 0:05:00.760 where Kevin is incarcerated, is perhaps the least developed of 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:05.640 all the parole processes in Australia. And just yesterday we 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.039 had news that a response has come down into a 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:13.960 review of the Queensland parole system and it outlines quite 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:19.039 a number of recommendations and one of the reasons that 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:23.800 review took place is because of these technicalities we talk about. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.919 But I think the very first thing we should mention 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:31.320 is this is the first review into the Queensland parole 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:36.880 system for eighty years, so no review had been done 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.159 since prior to the Second World War. So that means 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.279 all the people who are in prison now and have 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.640 been over the last many many decades have faced a 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.920 system that was drafted between the wars and during the depression, 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.520 and that's just not acceptable for a modern legal system, 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.719 and that I think is partly what's prompted this review, 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:04.839 and also the frustration that we continue to face roadblocks 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.479 in these technicalities that just shouldn't be there. 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:13.360 But just over the past couple of decades, the Queensland 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.000 incarceration rate has continued to go off, so not only 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.960 just aboriginal prisoners, but numbers of people we in prison 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:21.600 and a lot of that has to do with parole. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.040 But that's all based on the same system. So is 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.960 it the way the system is sort of being used, 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.679 or is it the overarching system or what's the key problem? 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.320 Because it seems like occasionally you can have a situation 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.120 where parole numbers are going down and then you have 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.080 an other situation like the present, where parole is being 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:42.880 refused at higher. 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:43.440 And higher rates. 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.200 Yeah, I think that therese are quite a few issues there. 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.680 One is political will and we've spoken a number of 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:56.840 times on this podcast. How when politicians, particularly those in power, 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.440 ramp up this idea of law and order making the 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:04.559 community safe by locking people up, we tend to see 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:10.400 prison population skyrocket, and that's very well detailed in a 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.520 new documentary called Thirteen that's available on Netflix that I 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:15.880 would recommend people have. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:16.440 A look at. 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.400 But when we add the complication of increased people going 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:26.880 into prison with an ancient, eighty year old parole system 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.160 making it even more difficult for people a to be 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:36.320 released and also to rehabilitate while they're out in the community, 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:42.520 but under parole conditions, you just have this real difficulty 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:48.720 for everyone involved, whether it's lawyers, rehabilitation centers, the mental 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:54.239 health sector, and the prisoners and their families themselves finding 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.000 a way to navigate through this system. So I think 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.880 it's a failure right across the board, and that's clearly 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.960 why we've seen this review need to take place, and 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:09.520 I hope we don't see the media cherry pick a 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.200 few little aspects of the report and say that it's 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:17.160 a need to become tough on law and order and 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.720 actually look at what the bulk of the report says, 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:25.680 which is about providing greater access to rehabilitation, updating the 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.239 system and those sort of things. 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:33.240 It's interesting because I think the public obviously views parole 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.840 a certain way, don't they, Because this report has actually 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.920 been sort of sparked by one of these law and 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:43.640 outrages you're talking about, How do you think the public 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.400 is the issue of parole and how is it different 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:48.040 to what actually needs to happen. 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.200 I think, almost exclusively, the only time we tend to 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:56.960 hear about parole is when someone is paroled and then 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:02.839 commits a fairly horrific crime upon their release. That's what 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:09.160 we hear about, and that happens maybe once every five years. Unfortunately, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.359 that is just a microcosm of what is the actual 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:17.880 parole system. It's no way indicative of what happens day 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:23.800 in day out at correctional centers around Queensland, at police 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.680 stations where people report, at all the mental health and 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:33.480 rehabilitation centers, and all the individual issues and processes that 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.280 people have to go through who are out on parole 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.240 or applying for parole. So we tend to see this 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:44.440 reporting that parole should be tougher and more restrictive, because 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.520 once every now and then it does lead to a 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.880 horrific outcome. And I don't think at all anyone is 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:56.839 denying that mistakes are made and sometimes people who are 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:01.320 released shouldn't be released. But it's very important to keep 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:05.200 in mind that this is in the absolute minority, and 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.080 largely what the report says is that one of the 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:12.160 reasons this takes place is not because these people are 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.000 released back into the community, but that they're not given 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:21.600 the ability to rehabilitate why they're in prison. And if 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.880 you don't give people access to those services, if you 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:30.360 don't help people rehabilitate, address their issues with drug and alcohol, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:36.880 help them re establish their connections into their communities, find work, 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.920 improve their education, then you're setting people up to fail. 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.840 And sadly, you will have a small percentage of people 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.640 who will go back into the community and re offend 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:55.560 because nothing has been done to improve them as individuals 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.960 and assist them rehabilitate from being offenders before they are relief. 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.040 So mar, what does this report actually say specific agree 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.400 that agal Well. 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:10.840 I think there's a few things in the report in 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:15.520 terms of recommendations that can make us somewhat hopeful. There's 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:21.239 some very specific recommendations that address the needs of Aboriginal 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:26.520 entire Straight Islander prisoners, and they include things like rehabilitation 0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:32.880 programs that specifically address the needs of Aboriginal entire straight 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:38.080 Islander people. That's in terms of things to do with 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:42.520 the proper provision and resourcing of mental health services that 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:47.640 are tailored to Aboriginal people. It's in terms of rehabilitation 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:52.960 services of all kinds, because we do know that Aboriginal 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:58.120 entire straight Islander peoples do respond very well to many 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.560 of the real rehabilitations services that do exist. They just 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:08.400 haven't been been offered to people in prison, and that 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:12.840 is both unfair to the prisoners and unfair to the 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:17.760 communities they come from that these provisions have not been 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.040 in place in the past, and so I really hope 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:25.200 these things are fast tracked through and we see those 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:30.600 changes made. There's also a call for greater programs to 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.440 be run by aberigin on Torres straight Islander people, and 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:39.079 I think that's particularly important that we have a huge 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:45.200 number of Aboriginal run and led professional organizations that deal 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:49.439 with everything from mental health, to community and work placement 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:55.880 to drug and alcohol rehabilitation that have really high success rates. 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.000 And this might shock some non Indigenous people who listen, 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.200 but the success rates are actually much higher than the 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.680 broader community, and so I think it's a welcome change 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:12.600 that finally in twenty seventeen there is a recognition of 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.800 the great work these organizations are doing and the great 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.360 changes people are making to their lives. So that's some 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:25.200 of what's in place. But there's also a particular aspect 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.679 that I think has been a concern of the Indigenous 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:32.800 community right around Australia, which is do these parole boards 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:38.640 have any Indigenous members sitting on them? And Recommendation thirty 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:43.320 eight requires that at least one professional member of the 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:49.840 board be Aboriginal lot of Tois straight Islander. Previously, we've 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.440 been given assurance that an Aboriginal lot Toros Straight Islander 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.880 person would be on a parole board and it wasn't 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.640 a requirement that that person be a professional in this area. 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.600 And so I think again we have quite a number 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.360 of Indigenous experts in this area who are well versed 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:13.960 in understanding the needs of prisoners and their communities, who 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:17.600 will now hopefully be employed by the Queensland Government to 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:19.680 assist in addressing these issues. 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.560 A lot of listeners who may not understand or have 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.720 a lot of contact with Aboriginal communities, might be wondering 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.400 why would you need someone like that on a parole board. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.920 Does the report find any specific discrimination against Aboriginal and 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.800 Hashate Island a prisoners on I go for parole. 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.600 The report does, and I think we can detail some 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.960 of it in terms of Kevin's particular case, which is 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.840 that there is a real lack of understanding by government 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:58.000 agencies across the board, including parole boards, about what constitutes 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:03.760 things like a fair family life, reintegration into community work 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:08.680 for Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander people, and the particular 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:14.080 importance of community and connection to country that Aboriginal and 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:18.600 Toros Straight Islander people have. So often a parole board 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.960 might want to see a person placed back with one 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.720 particular relative in particular, and that tends to just look 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:32.480 at what we see in the broader community as mum, 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.160 dad and the kids, and as we know in Aboriginal 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:40.360 in Toros Straight Islander communities, families and communities don't always 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:45.160 operate that way. Elders play a very significant role in 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:49.920 assisting everyone in the community, and often elders are in 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.040 fact the very best people placed in the community to 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.320 assist those who are coming out of prison, and I 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:00.560 think there's finally again a little bit of acknowledgment in 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.400 terms of the role they can play. And one of 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:09.960 the other issues is that the report recommendation number sixty 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.280 four is that there should be a substantial and immediate 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:19.240 increase in the number of cultural liaison of positions within 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:23.760 probation and parole. So we have those people in terms 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.680 of incorrection facilities, we have those people working with police, 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.760 but there has not been enough of those jobs in 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:36.280 terms of probation and parole, so assisting people who are 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:41.000 out on parole and assisting people with that transition. And 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.400 again I think that's one area where Aboriginal people are 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:50.400 much better positioned to assist other Aboriginal people than the 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.680 wider community is. But reading the report as well, Amy, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.840 there's also something that touches very close to home for 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.960 Kevin's case in partent, Yeah, it was. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.000 Very interesting when you consider that the war of Endo community, 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:08.440 where Kevin is actually from the worrib Indo community's deputy 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.920 there is actually the man who recommended these cultural liaison officers. 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.080 So it's obvious that the war of inter community itself 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.240 is very well versed in the problems around parole and 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:24.600 would acknowledge the problems that Kevin's currently coming up against. 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.000 Yeah, I think that's evident as well in the Worrebindo 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.679 community support for Kevin, and I think people right around 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:38.199 Australia should understand that the Worribinda community here we have 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:43.000 an example of them addressing a broader issue that affects 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:48.200 every Queenslander and providing expert advice on what needs to happen, 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.920 and that's been acknowledged and taken on board by this 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.600 review for the Coinsaying government. And then at a micro 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.760 level we also see in Kevin's case that the Worrebindo 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:05.000 com community has rallied around Kevin. Elders have supported Kevin 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.200 and signed a letter of support for Kevin for his parole. 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:13.520 So despite the fact that Warabinda is a small community 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:18.720 in central Queensland, Indigenous or non Indigenous, this must be 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.399 one of the most active communities in all of Australia 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:26.840 in terms of working to reform our prison system, our 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:32.760 parole system and assisting with rehabilitation and that benefits everybody 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.120 in the community. These are the things that reduce crime 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.679 and recidivism. This helps absolutely everyone, and I think really 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.879 we should see the Warabinda community applauded for the hard 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:49.119 work that they've done in assisting with this new recommendation 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:53.320 that will hopefully be rolled out very soon and not 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.359 only assist people like Kevin and all those from the 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:01.840 Warabinda community, but absolutely everybody in Queensland. And again I 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.040 think they should be congratulated for that fact. 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.320 Now this report is just being released only yesterday, will 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.120 it actually help Kevin's case for parole? Do you think 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.160 if all of these recommendations are implemented. 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.439 Look, I think that's a really good question, and I 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.000 think it goes to the fact that there's been no 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:24.800 review for eighty years. If this review had taken place 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:30.520 ten years ago, twenty years ago and contains these recommendations 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.520 and they'd been put in place, as you say, these 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:39.160 would have helped Kevin absolutely. In fact, I don't think 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:43.200 Kevin would still be in prison if these recommendations had 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:47.119 been implemented years ago when they should have. So absolutely 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:51.920 I think they can help Kevin going forward a because 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.280 so much of these recommendations back up what we've been 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:00.000 saying for years and backs up what Kevin's been saying 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:05.159 saying about his own rehabilitation, his own innocence, and his 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:10.520 right to maintain his innocence, and his right and the 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.080 benefit to him and his community to be able to 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.160 return to his community and be supported by his elders. 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:23.119 I think there's recommendations in here that address some of 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:27.120 the concerns we've raised with the Parole Board, and I 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.520 hope now the Parole Board, having seen them been fleshed 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.680 out in a government report, will see that we're not 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:40.080 the only people saying them that this shouldn't just be 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:44.800 something that's about whether Kevin is or isn't given parole. 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.240 This is something that affects all prisoners and therefore affects 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:51.840 Kevin as well. So it's not usd just trying to 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:55.080 make excuses to get Kevin out. These are real issues 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.959 that experts have looked at and they've come to the 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.719 conclusion that much of what Kevin has been putting in 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:07.159 his applications for parole is absolutely spot on. And so 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.600 I hope going forward that as we see the Parole 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:16.240 Board take these recommendations on and implement them, that now 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.480 many of the things where I mentioned previously Kevin has 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:24.520 been knocked back for on those technicalities can now be redressed. 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.399 And while we have many other things we're working on 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:32.520 in terms of Kevin's release in parole, this is just 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:37.680 another issue that's come along that should assist Kevin greatly. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.359 Now we are going to outline the reasons that Kevin 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:43.680 Henry was knocked back for parole, and we'll do that 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.199 next week, but first of all, we need to go 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:50.320 back and examine the forensics yet again. Now Mardin last 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.480 week we focused mostly on the drowning, but were there 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.320 other issues that were brought up in a forensic report 0:21:57.400 --> 0:21:58.720 that is important to know? 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:02.840 Yeah, there is. I think the drowning is the most 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:08.439 conclusive part of the report that, as we detailed last week, 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:13.199 outlines just how poor the forensic work was, to be honest, 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:17.520 and it's what's often referred to as junk science. But 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:20.520 there is a second aspect to the report that is 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:24.560 very important, and that relates to the issue of blood. 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.399 And I think anyone can understand that when you have 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:34.200 a murder has occurred, that generally you're going to have 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.719 a large amount of blood present where the crime scene 0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:41.800 takes place. And I think anyone who's seen a documentary 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.919 about such a thing, or even a movie will understand 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:49.960 that often these crime scenes are very bloody and are 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:55.440 very horrific things to witness and see. But in that 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:58.400 mess that is the crime scene is a large amount 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:03.320 of clues. And the clues that were very evident to 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.800 all involved in this case was the blood. There was 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:11.639 a large amount of Linda's blood in the crime scene 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:16.040 and within the vicinity of the crime scene, and there 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:21.280 was also blood that was belonging to other individuals. But 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:25.159 the most important aspect is this large amount of Linda's blood. 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:29.600 And the first thing we would expect is that whoever 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:34.280 was to have handled Linda's body, and remember the allegation 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:39.680 is that Kevin placed Linda's body in the water, you 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:43.800 would expect, firstly, just by common sense, that that person 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:48.600 would have some of that blood on their body. Now 0:23:49.600 --> 0:23:54.520 that's because of a few reasons. One, the wounds that 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:58.640 Linda had suffered were wounds that are considered to produce 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:02.600 a great deal of blood, and these were wounds and 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:07.359 injuries that were right across Linda's body. So from a 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:09.720 forensic point of view, there would have been no way 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:14.200 to handle Linda's body without getting blood on more than 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:16.520 just the hands. This is not something you could just 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:21.080 wash off your hands. The forensic examiners believe the blood 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:25.800 would be all over a person who had handled the body, 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:27.920 and that's in. 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:29.080 The independent report. 0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:31.480 We should say, so, this is what the independent forensic 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:32.520 experts has said. 0:24:33.200 --> 0:24:37.760 Yeah, that's correct, and it's also largely what was said 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:42.600 at trial. I should say too that this is what 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:47.760 you would expect to find. But in the forensic evidence, 0:24:48.520 --> 0:24:52.240 there is none of this blood on Kevin Henry. Now, 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:56.920 Kevin Henry's clothes that he was wearing that night were 0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:00.399 recovered and there is no suggestion by the process cution 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:05.120 or police or forensic experts that Kevin made any attempt 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:09.239 to clean these clothes. The clothes were well worn and 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:13.320 slightly dirty, and they still contained this dirt that was 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:18.760 days old, So there was no evidence of anyone trying 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:22.520 to clean blood or anything off the clothes. The clothes 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:28.560 contained no traces, not even microscopic traces of Linda's blood. 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:33.840 Kevin's shoes were also recovered, and as we've mentioned previously, 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:37.920 they didn't have any mud on them that we would 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:41.040 have expected had Kevin gone down into the riverbank, which 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:43.520 he would have been required to do to place the 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:47.159 body in the water, But both the initial forensic report 0:25:47.320 --> 0:25:51.040 and now more conclusively in the new forensic report, there 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:54.680 is no suggestion of any blood at all, neither Kevin's 0:25:54.720 --> 0:26:00.320 nor Linda's, nor anybody else's on Kevin's shoes. There was 0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:04.760 also no suggestion at the initial trial, and none found 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:08.760 in the new forensic report, that there was any blood 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:12.240 on Kevin's person. That is, there was no blood on 0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:15.159 his skin, on his hands, on his arms, on his 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.080 feet where it would be possible for him to have 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:23.679 perhaps removed his clothing and then move Linda's body. So 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:27.879 there was no blood anywhere on Kevin, neither his own, 0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:33.320 nor more importantly, any of Linda's. And it's believed by 0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:37.400 the forensic experts that to have done what the police 0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:41.320 alleged Kevin did, it's simply impossible for him to have 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.760 done it without getting blood on him, either on his 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:48.480 body or clothes or shoes, and none of that blood exists. 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:52.240 I was just going to ask Martin with the blood, 0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:55.399 was any of it found near De Grassy areas or 0:26:55.480 --> 0:26:58.680 anywhere near the riverbank or it was largely just near 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:01.119 to Newba House where we know the assault did occur, 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:02.879 so the. 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:06.600 Vast bulk of the forensic matter that was collected was 0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:12.120