1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm Patrina Jones with episode six of Rage Against the Menopause. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: This isn't just about women, you know. I think it's 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: such a travesty that as women, we work decades in 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: our chosen fields to break through the glass ceiling, juggling families, 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: and when we've reached dizzy in heights, some are forced 6 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: to retire early because of the symptoms of perimenopause and menopause. 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: A quarter of working women are retiring before the age 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: of fifty five, despite typically reporting they wanted to ride 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: off into the sunset at sixty four, taking a serious 10 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: hit on savings estimated in the billions. Because of a 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: lack of workplace support to address the symptoms, women are 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: being let down and workplaces robbed of expert talent and 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: this has to change. The recent Senate inquiry has heard 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: from the Australian Council of Trade Unions which is proposing 15 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: ten days reproductive leave, but not just for women, also 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: for men undergoing things like prostate checks and supporting a 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: partner through IYA. I spoke to President Michelle O'Neill. Well, 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of talk which is great in 19 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: the news of late about menopause leave or leave to 20 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: allow women with conditions like endometriosis and polycystic ovarian syndrome 21 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: to access extra leave, which I certainly would be a 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: fan of suffering both those conditions. And I'm really lucky 23 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: to have in the studio on the line with me 24 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: today Michelle O'Neil from the ACTU. 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: Hey, Michelle, that's how are you? 26 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: I am great? I am great, and I am so 27 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: glad that we are talking about this today because it 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: means that it's getting out there and you know, into 29 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: the public and encouraging all this debate and all this talk. 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: What is it that you want to introduce? Tell us 31 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: about it. 32 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: Well, it's actually not menopause leave. It's reproductors leave. And 33 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: that's because menopause is something that affects, as we know, 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: half the population. But there's also a whole lot of 35 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: other issues to do with our reproductive health that affects 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: women as well as men. So whether that's menstruation and 37 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: conditions that sometimes go along with that, things like endometriosis 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, or whether it's couples that are looking 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: for treatment to do with fertility issues, maybe going through IVF, 40 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: or whether it's a man having an eseectomy or a 41 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: woman dealing with the effects of miscarriage. These are all 42 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: issues to do with our reproductive health that we think 43 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: it's a very good idea to be able to introduce 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: additional paid leaves that recognizes that we're people and that 45 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: these issues around reproductive health just impact on our lives 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: in amazing ways, but they also really impact on our work, 47 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 2: and we've discovered that it's having a huge impact. And 48 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: if you think about menopause, for example, what we know 49 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: is that women are retiring significantly earlier than men, and 50 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: it seems though that menopause is a really key driver 51 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: of that. 52 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: I will share with you an experience I had years ago. 53 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: My husband and I suffered with infertility and pregnancy loss 54 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: for a period of about five years. A previous employer 55 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: of mine where I was, I was going in for 56 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: an egg retrieval and stupidly probably admitted that, you know, 57 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: I'd need about three or four days off to have 58 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: that egg retrieval, and was probably too open and said 59 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: to my employer at the time, listen, I'm actually not 60 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: going to be in you know, for this period of time. 61 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: This is what's happening, just so you can fill your roster. 62 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: When I got back from yet another failed implantation and miscarriage, 63 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: you know, dust yourself off and come back into work 64 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: put on a happy face. I was dragged into the 65 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: office and said this leave you've just had, Oh, yes, 66 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: that's to be taken as annual leave. And I said, 67 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: what do you mean? And I was told it's your 68 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: choice to do IVF. That's what I was told. And 69 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: I said, well, actually, no, that's kind of bias on 70 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: the grounds of a medical condition. So this is what 71 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: some women are facing. 72 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,559 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry that you had to live through that. 73 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: That's a really traumatic experience. Must have been very very 74 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: hard on you and your partner as well. So unfortunately, 75 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 2: what you just told me is just not uncommon. And 76 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why we really want to 77 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: change this conversation and talking about the need for additional 78 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 2: paid leave doesn't just give new rights for workers, it 79 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: actually changes what's been a really taboo set of topics 80 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: in our workplace. You women don't talk about having their periods. 81 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 2: It's really hard to talk about menopause, let alone issues 82 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 2: to do with fertility and going through IVF and all 83 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 2: of the practical and time and trauma related elements that 84 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,679 Speaker 2: go through with all of those things. Miscarriages of courses 85 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: can be so hard on people who've lost a baby, 86 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: but again there's just this silence around it. And one 87 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: of the really important things about winning new rights is 88 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 2: that it also opens up new conversations and education and understanding. 89 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: And an example of that perhaps is that last two 90 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: years ago we won ten days paid family and domestic 91 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: violence leave, and that's a really important right and is 92 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: literally a life saving right for many women. But it 93 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: also means that there's a different conversation happening now in 94 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: workplaces about violence an impact. This is another example of that. 95 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: It's a really important thing that'll be good for workers, 96 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: but it'll also be good for businesses and the organizations 97 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: we work for, because if we understand what's impacting on 98 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: us as people, we're not machines, then you get better 99 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: results from people. You get people staying in the workplace longer. 100 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: You don't have people leaving without knowing why. And I 101 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: think it would really benefit the whole society. 102 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: But also women that have worked decades to master their 103 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: craft and are really valuable to a company, to a 104 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: business leaving like they're retiring on average seven years before 105 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: men twelve years before their desired age of retirement. Can 106 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: I just go back to business because I was on 107 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: the project recently talking about the podcast and talking about 108 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: the impact on the workplace, and I've been inundated with 109 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: messages and i want to share some of them with you, 110 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: some not all positive negative. 111 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: Maxwell says. 112 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: While I don't deny for a second, people need support. 113 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: We can't keep pushing responsibility onto employers when businesses are 114 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: struggling and closing left, right and center. What about those 115 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: people with cancer that get up and go to work 116 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: every day. How would you respond to that sort of sentiment. 117 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think what we would all hope is that 118 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: we have workplaces and employers that do the right thing 119 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: without minimum rights and entitlements. But what we know is 120 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: that there's many workplaces where that's not the case, and 121 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 2: you gave us a really clear example of one. We 122 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: also know that women get discriminated against because of some 123 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: of these issues. So it is about saying that a 124 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: new right is nothing to be frightened of for employers, 125 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: because it will mean that you more likely to retain skilled, 126 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: committed staff. It'll mean you will be less likely to 127 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: have women retiring early because they haven't been able to 128 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: get the sort of flexibility and support they need to 129 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 2: stay at work. You'll attract people and more women into 130 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: the workforce if we recognize the impact that these things have. 131 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: And also, as I said, the reason we're talking about 132 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: reproductive lead is that this isn't just about women. It's 133 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: also about men and the impact the reproductive health issues 134 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 2: have on them too, So it is something that will 135 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: also be good for men in the workplace. It'll be 136 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 2: good for everybody in the workplace. And this is not 137 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: something that we're just starting to talk about. And fact 138 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,119 Speaker 2: unions have been our campaigning and winning agreements with clauses 139 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: for paid reproductive lead over the last few years. And 140 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 2: we've just seen the Queensland government announce ten days paid 141 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 2: reproductive leave for all public sector workers up in Queensland, 142 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: which is a massive change for workers in that state 143 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 2: and it's leading the way. But just back on your 144 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: point two, Pats that when we ask women in that 145 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: forty five to fifty four year old age group when 146 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: they typically want to retire, they say they want to 147 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: retire at sixty four, But they're a quarter of Australian 148 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: working women are actually retiring at the age of fifty five, 149 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: so that is twelve years before they said they wanted 150 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: to retire, and on averages she said seven years before 151 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: men So something's going on there that's not good. It's 152 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: not good for business. So instead of looking at it 153 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: as well, this would be an extra cost, it actually 154 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: can be something that will make businesses more effective and 155 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: more profitable, to keep good people and recognize who we are, 156 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 2: all of who we are, instead of only parts of 157 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: who we are. 158 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: Shari said something really funny. She's written, wish it was 159 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: around years ago. I think my sewing lecturer at TAFE 160 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: needed leave. She was moody and probably menopausal. 161 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: Well, look, you know that's the other thing. Sometimes there's 162 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: some myths about it. I mean, we all know there 163 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 2: is mood related issues to do with hormones. Somebody asked 164 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 2: me about menopause the other day. I'm not saying a 165 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: thing about that. But it is also though not just 166 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 2: about leave, it's about making arrangements that make work realize 167 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: that you can do things to make things better. So 168 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 2: we all know, for example, about temperature fluctuations. Now, if 169 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: that was something that was able to be properly talked 170 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: about in the workplace. If you could make adjustments around that, 171 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: people are going to be able to work better and 172 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: say it work longer. If we're able to pick up 173 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 2: on things like that, you may need it short notice 174 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: leave for things like IVF treatment for both a woman 175 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 2: and man to be able to respond to this cycle 176 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: like this is not always something that you can plan. 177 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: So if that's understood that it's not like, well, I'm 178 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 2: going to tell you in two weeks I need this time, 179 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 2: but in fact, relatively short notice to be able to 180 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: have some time to have fertility treatment is really important 181 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 2: part of this too. So it's busting the myths about 182 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: it as well, and not just thinking, oh, it's about 183 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 2: women being shitty. 184 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: That is a really valid point about the myths that exists. 185 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: Because Carolyn's written more reason to discriminate against women? No thanks. 186 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: Is it a case of them just not knowing enough 187 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: about what it is that you're trying to put forward? 188 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: Why and from a woman as well that point of view. 189 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 2: No, Look, that it's a really valid point and a 190 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: valid thing to be worried about. But what we know though, 191 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: is that discrimination is already happening. So having access to 192 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: leave having access and a right to flexible work arrangements 193 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: and having this talked about more at work will actually 194 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: help end discrimination. It's not like that there's not discrimination 195 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: going on now. There currently is discrimination going on and 196 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: we know that effects. You know, women are working for 197 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: not as many years as men, but also women earn 198 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: significantly less than men. Women retire with significantly less money 199 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: than men. The Australian Institute of Superannuation Trustees estimates that 200 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 2: menopause can cost women in that fifty to fifty four 201 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 2: age group more than fifteen billion dollars per year in 202 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: lost earnings and super for every year of early retirement. 203 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: So that's a massive impact on Australian women financial impact. 204 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: So it's already having that discriminatory effect. So I understand 205 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 2: the concern. You don't want to be stuck in a 206 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: box and people say, oh, you know this is all 207 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: because of you know, your menstruating or your menopause all, 208 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: but you do want to make sure that we aren't 209 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: affected negative of lead, because of something that's a normal 210 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: part of our life. 211 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think flexibility in the workplace it's going 212 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: to be for everyone. 213 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, of course it does. And when we already 214 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: have rights to flexible work arrangements for key things. We're 215 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: proposing that reproductive health gets added to that. So if 216 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: you're pregnant, or you've got a disability, or you're an 217 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 2: older worker, or you're experiencing family domestic violence, you do 218 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 2: have some rights now to be able to request flexible work, 219 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 2: and those rights got strengthened in the last year or two. 220 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: We think having reproductive health in there is an important 221 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: change that needs to happen. And I don't think we 222 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: should underestimate how many workers, women and men are affected 223 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: by this every day now and so pretending that's not 224 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 2: happening or putting our head in the stand about it. 225 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: You know, one of the big problems we've got, Pats, 226 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: is that we don't research this properly. So we're also 227 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: looking for there to be a better understand better research 228 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 2: done about what sort of impact is it having on productivity? 229 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 2: What sort of impact is a lack of understanding having 230 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: on people's ability to do the very best by their 231 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 2: family and buy their work. 232 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: So getting to the basics, Michelle, what is it that 233 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: you're calling for. So we're talking ten days extra per 234 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: calendar year. 235 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, but non cumulative issues related to menstruation, miscarriage, vasectomies, hysterectomies. 236 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: The list goes on, and some of these, of course 237 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: are really important. If you have time to be able 238 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: to get proper screening for things like breast and cross 239 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: that cancer, then of course you're less likely to then 240 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: end up unwell and unable to work. So there's preventative 241 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: health issues that are good for everyone in this too. 242 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: And so you would need to provide a proof that 243 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: is to a reasonable level that this is what you 244 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: are requiring to believe for. You can take it either 245 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: in half days or days or multiple days, depending on 246 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 2: your needs and where it's been introduced. And as I said, 247 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: we've been unions have been winning this in agreements around 248 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: the country for a few years now. What we're hearing 249 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: back is that it's actually really helped improve people staying 250 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: in their workplace, being able to keep working longer than 251 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 2: they would otherwise to, and being able to make sure 252 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: they can balance their life and their work. 253 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: And so these ten days are in addition to their 254 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: normal sick day allowance. 255 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so personally is ten days at the moment 256 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: for workers. But if you remember that that's not just 257 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: for you if you're sick, it's also sleeper that you 258 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: care for, So this would be additional leave, but of 259 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: course it doesn't get used unless it's necessary and there's 260 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 2: a reasonable element of proof that goes along with it. 261 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: So where to from here, Michelle, So you've put the 262 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: request forward. Will this go before the Senate inquiry or 263 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: what happens with you? 264 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: Yes? So there's been a Senate inquiry that's been just 265 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: looking at menopause and perimenopause at the moment, and we've 266 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: appeared before that inquiry. We've put forward a range of proposals, 267 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: including the flexible work arrangements and the additional leave, and 268 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 2: that issues about doing better research about what's really going on, 269 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: and as well as that, we recently had what's called 270 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: the ACTU Congress. It's when all the unions from all 271 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 2: over the country get together and plan what we're going 272 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: to be doing in the coming three years. And a 273 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: key outcome of that congress was support for trying to 274 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: win ten days paid reproductive leave through our bargaining in 275 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: enterprise agreements, but also as a national employment standard for 276 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: all workers. So unions are working now around the country 277 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: with their members and talking to employers about why this 278 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: is a good idea, and we'll also be campaigning to 279 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: have the government introduce it readily. 280 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: I just think it's a really good opportunity to seize 281 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: the moment and make positive change and more than anything, 282 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: as the mum of a teenage daughter, make and leave 283 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: a legacy for future generations, Like it really is as 284 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: major as that it's a natural health condition and it 285 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: should happen. 286 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: It's such a natural thing, and it's still it's sort 287 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: of shocking that it's so taboo, isn't it. 288 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: This is why I'm enjoying the podcast, you know, Entering Perimenopause. 289 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: It's just it's like we're in the eighteen hundreds and 290 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: I just want to bust that and just get the 291 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: conversation rolling because it's just it's so overdue. 292 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 2: Well good on you, because that's right. And the more 293 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: that there's this culture of silence, the more that we 294 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 2: all suffer from that. It's not just the women who 295 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 2: are dealing with effects of menopause. It's of course our 296 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: whole workplaces suffer, our family suffer, and the community suffers 297 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: and business suffers from it. Like if we talk about it, 298 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: most we understand it, moth. We'd normalize this, then it's 299 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: going to be better for everyone. And you know the 300 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 2: other thing I reckon because even in twenty twenty four, 301 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 2: a whole lot of our work rights and work arrangements 302 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: are based on the idea that a normal worker is man, 303 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 2: and we've got to change that. And that's one of 304 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 2: the reasons we still see the gender pay gap, one 305 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 2: of the reasons we still see rampant sexual harassments and 306 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 2: things in the workplace. We just have to make sure 307 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: that our attitudes and our responses to workers catch up 308 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: with the fact that women are workers. And you wouldn't 309 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: think you needed to say that in twenty twenty four, 310 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 2: but we do. We do. 311 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: That's a sad thing we do. Thank you so much, Michelle. 312 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: I'm really excited by you know what we're going to see, 313 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: hopefully happen in the next twelve months. How soon would 314 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: we get this leave enshrined? 315 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 2: Well, like always, you know, to win new rights for workers, 316 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 2: we've got to fight for them and campaign for them. 317 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: But I'm really heartened by the number of agreements that 318 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 2: are now starting to be done where employers and unions 319 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: are agreeing without a fight about why this is the 320 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: good idea and as I said that, the Queensland government 321 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: has recently led the way with introducing it for all 322 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: public sector workers up there, so I'm hopeful that we'll 323 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: win this soon. But I encourage everyone to be part 324 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: of it. And I want to thank you Pats for 325 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 2: doing this great podcast. It's such an important part of 326 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: changing attitudes what you're doing. 327 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: Oh thanks, Michelle, it's been a delight to have you on. 328 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: Thanks for that. 329 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: The Victorian Women's Trust says more than eighty percent of 330 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: women experiencing menopause say their work was negatively affected. Seventy 331 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: percent report not being comfortable talking to their boss about 332 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: ways to support them. It's a divisive issue reproductive leave, 333 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: whether business can or can't afford it, but can we 334 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: afford to lose the expertise these women in their chosen fields. 335 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: Metopause in the Workplace continues our theme in episode seven, 336 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: I'm in my power now when I welcome Grace Molloy 337 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: from Menopause Friendly Australia. I'm Patrina Ja and this is 338 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: a rage against the menopause. 339 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 2: Mhmm.