1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: I got leadership wrong in twenty twenty four. That's how 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: I started a newsletter I wrote earlier this year that 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: quite frankly, scared the. 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 2: Hell out of me to write. 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: In this episode, I turn the mic on myself, to 6 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: share the mistakes I made, the fear that paralyzed me, 7 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: and what it cost not just me, but my team 8 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: and my culture at Inventium, And to help me unpack 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: it all. I am joined by my incredible friends, Sabina Reid. 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: Sabina is a clinical psychologist, weekly expert on threeaw and 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,319 Speaker 1: host of the popular podcast human Cox. If you've ever 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: felt frozen by indecision or driven by the need to 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: be liked, this conversation is for you, because sometimes the 14 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: best leadership lessons come from owning what we got wrong. 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 16 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: and strategies. 17 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 3: For optimizing your date. 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Doctor Amantha Imba. 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: Amantha, you have worked with so many leaders, so many organizations, 20 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: but recently in your newsletter you dropped a few truth 21 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 2: bombs and you turned the mirror on yourself. What made 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 2: you do that, particularly around the context of leadership. 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 3: I think I. 24 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 4: Always like to look at what's missing, Like, what are 25 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 4: the things that I'm not seeing, the conversations that I'm 26 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 4: not seeing in the public domain, And quite frankly, I 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 4: don't see a lot of leaders reflecting on what they've 28 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 4: done poorly. I see a lot of humble brags on LinkedIn. 29 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 4: I see a lot of successes, awards and all those 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 4: sorts of things that, quite frankly, do we need more 31 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 4: of that in our feed Probably not, although I'm sure 32 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 4: I've been guilty of doing the same thing. But I 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 4: don't see a lot of leaders asking themselves what I'd 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 4: be doing better and sharing those lessons publicly. 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: That's all humble and noble, but it's not easy to do. 36 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: And you kicked off the article by saying I got 37 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: leadership wrong in twenty twenty four at Packs of Punch 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: as an opening line. So what was the moment that 39 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: you thought you needed to write this? What was the 40 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: exact moment that you thought now is time to share It. 41 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 4: Was interesting back in January this year, twenty twenty five, 42 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 4: I had an off site with my team, or we 43 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 4: went away for a couple of days, and we're talking 44 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 4: about all sorts of things, and you know, one of 45 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 4: the things that came up is twenty twenty four had 46 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 4: been a really hard year at Inventium, and you know, 47 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 4: I'd had to fire some people, I'd had to retrench 48 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 4: some people, and some people left off their own accord, 49 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 4: and that brought a lot of change. And you know 50 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 4: these days, when people leave a company or start a 51 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 4: new role, it's often very public. It's on LinkedIn and 52 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 4: some of the team it had just random people go 53 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 4: what's happening with Inventium? Like there, why is everyone leaving? 54 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 4: And you know, we're meant to be this amazing workplace 55 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 4: and I think in twenty twenty four we were not 56 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 4: an amazing workplace. Yet that's the image we continued to project, 57 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 4: and we talked about it as a team, and I thought, 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 4: I really want to share a bit more about what happened. Obviously, 59 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 4: you know, there's lots of confidential things that I can't 60 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 4: go into, but I thought I can at least turn 61 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 4: the table on myself and I can talk about my 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 4: experience and the lessons that I learned. And I thought 63 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 4: that was important because I felt for some people that 64 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 4: had followed Inventium there was perhaps a disconnect in terms 65 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 4: of what was going on and I wanted to share 66 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 4: more honestly about some of the things that I'd experienced 67 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 4: and what had happened. 68 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: And you did exactly that. So let's dive into some 69 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: of your insights and some of the summaries that you 70 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: shared in the news of it. The first one was 71 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: that hope is not a strategy, and you wrote that 72 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: you were really overwhelmed by a sense of fear, but 73 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: you didn't recognize it as fear at the time. So 74 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: what do you think, in hindsight now you are most afraid. 75 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 4: Of I remember doing a lot of catastrophizing and it 76 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 4: was a hard time in the business, but at a 77 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 4: bigger level, it was a really hard time for consultancies. 78 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 4: You know, towards the end of twenty twenty three, in 79 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 4: the beginning of twenty twenty four, the economy was not 80 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 4: looking good. A lot of our clients were cutting budgets. 81 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 4: I didn't know too many consultancies that hadn't made quite 82 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 4: significant retrenchments, and at that time it was something that 83 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 4: I just didn't see as an option for me for Inventium, 84 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 4: which meant that it put a lot of pressure on 85 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 4: the business, on the team to perform financially in what 86 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 4: was a really really hard environment, and you know, you 87 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 4: never know what's around the corner, like in business and 88 00:04:57,800 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 4: in consulting, like you never know when that big sale 89 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 4: is just around the corner and can really turn things 90 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 4: around when you're behind in your financial goals. And I 91 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 4: just kept hoping that things would change, and sort of 92 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 4: like some of the you know, the unrest in the team, 93 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 4: I just kept hoping that things would get better. And 94 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 4: at the time, I was quite actively recruiting for a 95 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 4: new CEO, even though I temporarily stepped into that role, 96 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,239 Speaker 4: and I hoped, maybe I'll find someone that will really 97 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 4: help me turn things around. And so I just kept 98 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 4: hoping and hoping and hoping. 99 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: And you said that a redundancy wasn't an option. What's 100 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: the barrier that you had to redundancies? 101 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 3: It's a good question. 102 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 4: I think the only time we had to retrench people 103 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 4: in eighteen years of being in business was at the 104 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 4: start of COVID, and everyone had to do it then. 105 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 4: I don't know any businesses that didn't. So while it 106 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 4: was a big thing, it was also a thing that 107 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 4: everyone was doing, which I think normalizes it. And yes, 108 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 4: there were a lot of companies making redundancy is at 109 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,559 Speaker 4: the beginning of twenty twenty four, the end of twenty 110 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 4: twenty three. But at Inventum, I just thought, no, we 111 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 4: can get through this. And it's a business that has 112 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 4: very high tenure. People join in Ventium and they stay 113 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 4: for years, like I think at some points in time 114 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 4: my average tenure has been up at around five years, 115 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 4: which is pretty nuts for a consultancy. And it's really hard, 116 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 4: like when you're making decisions about people that you've worked 117 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 4: with for a very, very long time, and so early 118 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 4: in the year it just wasn't an option. 119 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: I was considering, would you do that differently now if 120 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: you had your time again? 121 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 3: One hundred percent. 122 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 4: I think that decision was ultimately to not do anything, 123 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 4: and to not see that as an option was really 124 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 4: driven by fear. And even in my mind, you know, 125 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 4: I'd try to imagine those conversations because I was obviously 126 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 4: the one that was going to have to have those conversations, 127 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,559 Speaker 4: and I thought, I can't even conceptualize being in front 128 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 4: of the people that I would have to have the 129 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 4: conversation with, and I I couldn't even imagine it, and 130 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 4: so I just erased that from being an option. But 131 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 4: I would definitely do things differently if I had my 132 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: time again, because I think fear was getting in the way, 133 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 4: and by not making that decision or avoiding that decision 134 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 4: or delaying that decision, I put a lot of pressure 135 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 4: on a lot of people that didn't necessarily need to 136 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 4: be there. 137 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: And at what cost to you and them and maybe 138 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: even the inventing brand temporarily. 139 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 3: I think it was at a really big cost. 140 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 4: And it's funny, like when you're sitting in fear, it's 141 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 4: really hard to think about what is the cost of indecision? 142 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 4: And I now see that that cost was very high. 143 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 4: It was very high for members of the team, it 144 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 4: was high for the culture, and certainly because ultimately, like 145 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 4: I could really only speak for myself, it was an 146 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 4: incredibly high personal cost for me. 147 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: And there'll be a lot of people listening who will 148 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: be thinking, I mean, who signs up for a redundancy conversation? 149 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: It's not an easy conversation to have, but it's powerful 150 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 2: reflections now in hindsight. You also talked in your article 151 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: about the freeze response, which is really what you're describing now, 152 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: and we know that that has well, it has unhelpful 153 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: end results for us when we phrase it's a commonplace 154 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: to be, that fight, that flight or phrase state is 155 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: not going to move us along where we need to go. 156 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: So just to be able to recognize I'm in that 157 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: state of phrase now, but what can i do to 158 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: shift that so I can take action because you just 159 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: kind of languished in the freeze or I don't know 160 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: if it's languishing. It's not languishing, it's you're frozen. It's 161 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: frozen in the freeze. And then you also talked about 162 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 2: in the article that people pleasing and conflict avoidance, and 163 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: you talk about wanting to be liked by your colleagues 164 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: and the people that you employ. Perhaps over having these 165 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 2: hard conversations tell us a bit about that, and we know, 166 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: of course we all want to be liked. But what 167 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 2: was that experience like for you. 168 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 4: I remember it must have been in the middle of 169 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 4: the year, I think, because I was trying to attend 170 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 4: fairly regular therapy sessions and I was talking about some 171 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 4: experiences that I was having at work, and my therapist 172 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 4: pointed out that I have very high need to be 173 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 4: liked and that was making me a really bad manager. 174 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: Well, actually, he he said people like you shouldn't manage people. 175 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 4: That's right, which is a pretty powerful statement. I should 176 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 4: add I probably didn't question that enough at the time. 177 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 4: He's no longer my therapist, like he was great. I 178 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 4: still recommend him. But I look back on that and 179 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 4: at the time I really believed it, and I doubled 180 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 4: down on just going I need to get out of 181 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 4: the coo roll, like I'm not good at it, I 182 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 4: can't do it. I had all this doubt about myself 183 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 4: and he I think through that comment it's kind of 184 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 4: like the nail in the coffin, and I'm like, yeah, 185 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 4: I just I need to not be in this role. 186 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 4: But it's funny when I put this newsletter out into 187 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 4: the public. Through my newsletter, I had a few people 188 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 4: right back and actually question that and go. 189 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: Really like, really, that's what was said in therapy. 190 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 3: But that's what was said. You know, I think that's something 191 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 3: worth questioning. 192 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: But what do you think, Well, what's coming up for 193 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: me is one of the things that you do so 194 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 2: well in your AI master classes is you encourage us 195 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: to use prompts to have two way conversations, continually prompting 196 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: and questioning to build rapport with AI. I don't know 197 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 2: if reports the right word. It's not really, but it's 198 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: kind of parallel story to what's coming up for me 199 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: in the therapeutic space. Is just because a therapist says something, 200 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 2: it doesn't mean it's an absolute. It's something that they're 201 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: bringing into the space. And I think it's important for 202 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: all of us to be able to own that it's 203 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: okay to say, really, I mean, that doesn't land for 204 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: me or I've never thought of it that way before. 205 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: I let me just sit with that instead of buying 206 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: a hook line and sinker. It's a shared space. And 207 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: yet the amount of times I've heard people say, my 208 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: therapist says and then they kind of drop this one 209 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: or two sentences, which was what your experience was here, 210 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 2: and they hold on to that part. And as you know, 211 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 2: I don't do a lot of therapy anymore, but I've 212 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: got countless examples of people coming back to me over 213 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,199 Speaker 2: the years in session and saying, you know, remember when 214 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: you said X, Y or Z and me thinking I 215 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: didn't say that, or those wouldn't be my words. But 216 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: that's how it landed, and that's how it was received. 217 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: And if we buy it literally and don't question it. 218 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: It can send us on a trajectory that we wouldn't 219 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: otherwise have gone on. And that's kind of the story 220 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: that you're telling here. So tell me a bit about 221 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: what shifted them between twenty four and twenty five that 222 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 2: allowed you to let go of some of that need 223 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: for approval or being liked and take the leadership role, 224 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: perhaps with a different lens. 225 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 4: Well, I think I became more aware of it. I 226 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 4: became more are aware of this need to be liked 227 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 4: and how how it was showing up for me. And 228 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 4: I think when you're hyper aware of something, I mean, 229 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 4: that's the starting point for working through I think any 230 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 4: challenge or issue that you're tackling. And being back in 231 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 4: the CEO role in twenty twenty five, like it feels 232 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: like my experience at work is literally done a oneint eighty. 233 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 4: It could not be further apart from my experience of 234 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 4: twenty twenty four. And I feel like, you know, it's 235 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 4: really different when you feel like you're kind of you're 236 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 4: in flow. Everyone on the team is kind of behind 237 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 4: you and behind each other, and you know there's a 238 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 4: high amount of trust with every combination of team member, 239 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 4: every diad if you like that we have in the 240 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 4: team there is such high trust and such high respect, 241 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 4: and it feels in a way kind of effortless to lead, 242 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 4: which I guess it sort of. It feels like I'm 243 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 4: in flow from leadership point of view, compared to I 244 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 4: just felt every day I was struggling and drowning and 245 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 4: just full of self doubt in twenty twenty four. 246 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: And what do you think the relationship with the correlation 247 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: is between that sense of trust that you're describing versus 248 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: likability or being liked or accepted. 249 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 4: I'm pausing because I'm reflecting on that. I'm not sure 250 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 4: if it's something I've reflected on. 251 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: Good, let's do it now. 252 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 3: What's your sense of things? 253 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 4: Because you know me well, you've known me throughout well 254 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 4: for years, but certainly throughout what was going on in 255 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 4: twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five. 256 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 3: What's your take on it for you? 257 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: Or I think let me start broad and then all 258 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: zoom into Amantha. I think you know broader. We all 259 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: know we've heard time and time again that we are 260 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: hardwired for connection. If we don't belong to a tribe, 261 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: we die. This was your tribe, so to be liked 262 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 2: as a leader, not just for you, but for any leader, 263 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: even if we don't acknowledge that. I've worked with many 264 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 2: leadership teams and heard many CEOs and managing directors and 265 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: small business owners the whole gamut. I don't need to 266 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: be liked. I just need to be respected as if 267 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: you can order it up with a side of fries, 268 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: and you can't. So I think there's an honesty there, 269 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: and I think of vulnerability that a part of you 270 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 2: was saying. I do want to be liked. I want 271 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: them to like me. I want them to want to 272 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: come to work and spend time with me. These are 273 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: my words, not yours, but I want them to enjoy 274 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: this space. I want to be a part of that dynamic. 275 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 2: That's just honest. And I think it's a really fine 276 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: line that leaders have to walk between a connection with 277 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 2: one another versus a leadership role. And I don't think 278 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: you can just kick the likability or the connection piece 279 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: to the curb. I think when it gets in the 280 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: driver's seat, that's when it hijacks us. 281 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that really resonates. 282 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 4: I think I definitely perform better when I do feel 283 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 4: like I'm liked, and I still struggle with the conversations 284 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 4: where I have an unpopular view. 285 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 3: But like I remember a. 286 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 4: Few months ago, my team and I were struggling with 287 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 4: a decision where there were three of us making the 288 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 4: decision and. 289 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 3: We all had quite. 290 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 4: Different views, and it was a decision that we had 291 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 4: to make quite quickly, we only had a few days 292 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 4: to do it. And I remember one of my teammates 293 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 4: like really disagreed with my view, and so she actually, 294 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 4: you know, she called me and she explained why, and 295 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 4: it kind of it made me open up to what 296 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 4: I was missing. And then we ended up making the decision, 297 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 4: which was not the decision I initially thought was best. Then, 298 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 4: through listening, you know, to the conversations the three of 299 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 4: us were having, I concluded that, yeah, I think. 300 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 3: This is the way to go. 301 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 4: And I later had a conversation with this teammate and 302 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 4: she said, I would have been okay with whatever decision 303 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 4: that you made, but what really made a difference to 304 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 4: me is that you really listened to my view when 305 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 4: it was different to your view. And I thought that's 306 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 4: really interesting because the me that needs to be liked 307 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 4: would have just jumped to I guess I should probably 308 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 4: just make the popular decision here, but I didn't. I 309 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 4: made the decision that I thought was best for the company. 310 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 4: But I do remember that and thinking that's interesting. It's 311 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 4: not about making the popular decision. It's about people feeling 312 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 4: like they have been heard, like genuinely heard. 313 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 2: And I think that's the goal in that story above. 314 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: The likability piece is really hearing and the other goal 315 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: in that story. And I always say the mark of 316 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: a wise human is one that can change their mind 317 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: and their opinion in the face of new data information. 318 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: And so you heard something in that conversation that you 319 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 2: are open to listening to her views that actually did shift, 320 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: not to please her, not to appease her. The way 321 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 2: I'm hearing you say it is you heard something and 322 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: you thought, actually, yeah, I hadn't considered that. That's new 323 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: data in the mix, and it's changed my view. And 324 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 2: I think often as leaders, we're fearful to change our 325 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: view in the face of new data, particularly if it 326 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: comes from an employee or someone who works for us, 327 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: because we think wrongly that we should have known that 328 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: and now they're bringing something to the table that we 329 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 2: didn't know. I hadn't considered. We know what growth mindset 330 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: is and we know that that's useful in all domains 331 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: of life, but so often we want to be right 332 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: rather than to move the dial. 333 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: I'm just reminded of something that happened yesterday. 334 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 4: It was just a small moment that I had picked 335 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 4: up Frankie from school and instead of going home, we'll 336 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 4: going to the bookshop, which meant, you know, potentially driving 337 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 4: a different route. And so at the intersection where we'd 338 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 4: normally go straight ahead, I was going to go left, 339 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 4: and then Frankie said, why don't we go straight ahead 340 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 4: and then we can use the backstreets that might be faster, 341 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 4: And I said, oh, I don't know, but like yeah, 342 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 4: let's try that. And Frankie's like, oh, we don't have 343 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 4: to mum, like we can just go the way that 344 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 4: you were going to go, and I'm like, no, let's 345 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 4: go your way, And I think, you know something in 346 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 4: her like it was just a small moment. It's meaningless, 347 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 4: how are we going to drive to the bookshop? But 348 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 4: for me, I think it's so important as a parent 349 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 4: to go. I'm listening to you and your opinion and 350 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 4: your perspectives matter. And even though I've had like nearly 351 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 4: four more decades on the road than she has. I 352 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 4: like that she's thinking differently about it, and we're going 353 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 4: to try that. 354 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: That is such a potent story. And even that you 355 00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 2: said the choice of words, let's go your way to 356 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: do the way you want to do it, And it 357 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 2: doesn't make any difference to you which way you drive 358 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 2: to a bookstore. But so often, again it's a really 359 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 2: nice parallel because you're the authority figure. She doesn't even 360 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 2: have a license, you know, she's not even eighteen, so 361 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 2: she's never even driven a car, and she's thinking about 362 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: and you want to honor that new way of thinking. 363 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: She's you know, not many children Frankie's age would be 364 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: thinking about how do we get from A to B? 365 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: They just let their parents do what their parent does. 366 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 2: So you want to honor that way of thinking and 367 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: her voice. And I think that's the same in a team, 368 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 2: in a leadership situation, or in business. You want to 369 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: honor the voice. And honoring the voice doesn't mean you 370 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 2: have to agree with it. And so often when someone speaks, 371 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: we think, well, either I have to say yes I 372 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: agree or no I don't. But as you experienced and 373 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 2: invent him, you can hear it and experience. You can 374 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 2: hear a perspective, you can hear a story, you can 375 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: hear a narrative, and you can do just that. You 376 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: can hear it and not to tick a box, but 377 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: to hear it with an openness, in a cure curiosity, 378 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: and then you still get to decide what you do 379 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 2: with it. So the listening part there. You know, we 380 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: all talk about listening in business, in life, I think 381 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: it's one of the most underused skills, and particularly in leadership. 382 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: Okay, it's time for a quick break, but if you're 383 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: leading a team or part of one, you'll definitely want 384 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: to hear what's coming up next. In the second half, 385 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: I dive into the biggest culture mistake I made last 386 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: year and how just one person not feeling psychologically safe 387 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: can quietly unravel an entire team. I also walk through 388 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: the exact tool we now use every six weeks to 389 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: keep our culture on track, which is something that any 390 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: team can steal and start using today. 391 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 3: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 392 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: you work can live. 393 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 4: I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've 394 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 4: discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up 395 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 4: for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. 396 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 2: You also talked about in your article, And I think 397 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: this is quite connected. Psychological safety and psychological safety we 398 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: know is a team construct. It's not an individual. You 399 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: can't just say I'm psychologically safe as a leader, or 400 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: as an employee or as a colleague, because it's got 401 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: a contagion effect to it. And you said in your article, 402 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: my biggest culture lesson from twenty twenty four was about 403 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 2: psychological safety. It must be universal, not just widespread in 404 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: smaller teams. Especially when even one person doesn't feel safe 405 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: to speak up, the entire system breaks down. So what 406 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: do you do with that as a leader? What did 407 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: you do with that as a leader? Because I agree 408 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 2: with the sentiment one hundred percent. 409 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 4: That's funny because we help our clients build psychological safety 410 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 4: and have better conversations. But I think for me, it 411 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 4: didn't really land for me until I was living with 412 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 4: the experience where a lot of the team had high 413 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 4: psychological safety, They were very comfortable bringing up all sorts 414 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 4: of things, and then there were one or two members 415 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 4: of the team who really didn't, and often that would 416 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 4: result in either them sharing something with me but asking 417 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 4: me to keep it confidential, or again like diads sharing 418 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 4: with each other but no one else. And then I mean, 419 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 4: you know, it's the same company, but it's really different. 420 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 4: And it made me realize if just one person doesn't 421 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 4: feel psychologically safe, that can do a lot of damage 422 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 4: to the whole level of trust within the whole team, 423 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 4: even when some people do feel safe. 424 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: I agree, And you said in the article, without complete 425 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: psychological safety, genuine concerns moved from open forums to private conversations, 426 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: which is what you've described there. How do you test? 427 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 2: What are the metrics? You said, look at this regularly 428 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: as a team now, and we didn't used to. 429 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 4: We've always had metrics in place to do with things 430 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 4: that relate to engagement. But I'll talk you through what 431 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 4: we do now. So every six to eight weeks we 432 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 4: are a remote first team, which means we all work 433 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 4: from wherever we want. But once a month we now 434 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: come together in person and on that in person day, 435 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 4: we'll spend about sixty to ninety minutes going through what 436 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 4: we call our Inventium Team Health Monitor, which is adapted 437 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 4: from what at Lassie and do and adapted from some 438 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 4: of the team performance research that wear across, and so 439 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 4: we look at about ten different dimensions that we know 440 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 4: are really important for culture and for a team to 441 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 4: work together really well to be a high performing team. 442 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 4: And one of those dimensions is psychological safety. And so 443 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 4: how we do that as a team. We come together. 444 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 4: We're sitting together in a room, face to face around 445 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 4: a table, and we are each thinking about, Okay, how 446 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 4: are we going the moment instead of thinking back over 447 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 4: the last six to eight weeks or whenever we've last 448 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 4: done that team health monitor, what's our experience like as individuals, 449 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 4: And what we do is we've got a four point 450 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 4: rating system. So silver is the highest and that's represented 451 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 4: by two thumbs up. Then we've got green, which is 452 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 4: one thumbs up. We've got orange, which is thumb on 453 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 4: the side, and then red, which is thumb down. And 454 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 4: so at the counter three, like we all think about 455 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 4: what is that paper scissors kind of like rocks paper scissors, 456 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 4: but with completely different movements, And so what we do 457 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 4: is we all think individually, how would I rate it 458 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 4: for myself? What's my experience? And then on the counter three, 459 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 4: like in rocks paper scissors, we do our gesture and 460 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 4: then sometimes we're completely aligned. A lot of the time 461 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 4: we are, but other times we're not. Other times one 462 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 4: person might have a two thumbs up and someone else 463 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 4: might have a thumbs down. And so for us that's 464 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 4: an important cue. Okay, we need to have a conversation 465 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 4: about this. And likewise, you know, if something is working 466 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 4: really well, it's also important that we know is it 467 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 4: working well? Like what do we need to double down on? 468 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 4: So that ritual that we have as a team has 469 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 4: been so powerful in going how are we going and 470 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 4: how is everyone feeling? And also I think because we're 471 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 4: there face to face, we're doing it in person. I mean, 472 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 4: there's just like a read that you get on body 473 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,719 Speaker 4: language that is generally impossible to get virtually, you know, 474 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 4: not least in the because people's camera setup is generally 475 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 4: crap and you can only see them from the neck 476 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 4: up if they have not optimized their virtual setup. But 477 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 4: like you just get something else through that's doing. 478 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: An energy I think there's an energy exchange. You know, 479 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: you walk into a room, whether it's for business or pleasure, 480 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: you know immediately what the sense you feel is when 481 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: you're with in the presence of others, and for all 482 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 2: of the benefits of working from home. That energy exchange 483 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: is really valuable. So you do your rocks, paper scissors 484 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: well or your thumbs up, thumbsides, thumbs down, double thumbs, 485 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 2: whatever it is. And you also raise something there that 486 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: made me curious. It's so easy for us to only 487 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 2: want to focus on the two thumbs down or whichever 488 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 2: the lowest rating was that you described, and we overlook 489 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 2: when we've got two thumbs up. And I think that 490 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: a lot of organizations and teams think, well, if it's 491 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: working well, let's almost not talk about it. We don't 492 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: want to curse it, we don't want to disrupt it. 493 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 2: It doesn't need our attention. And of course, from a 494 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 2: strength based model and positive psychology lens, we have to understand, 495 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: as you said, double down, what is working well? Why 496 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 2: is that working well? How can we continue? And what 497 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: can we learn that's transferable from whatever that double thumbs 498 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: scenario is. To take that to a thumbs down scenario, 499 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 2: because there'll be learnings there. 500 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 4: I think what is really interesting, or something I think 501 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 4: about a lot, is that you can't rest on your 502 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 4: laurels with culture. It's not like we can just kind 503 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 4: of go oh great, like we're you know, one or 504 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 4: two thumbs up for everything. Let's just continue as is 505 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 4: like it really it does take conscious work, and I 506 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 4: think I also feel like I've seen culture turn around 507 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 4: for worse and for better, and it can happen quite quickly. 508 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 4: That is why I think it always needs to be 509 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 4: kept an eye on. You cannot coast with this kind 510 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 4: of stuff. 511 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 2: What do you think the ideal cadence for checking in 512 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: on this is you're doing it six to eight weeks, 513 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 2: But a lot of organizations do an annual check in. 514 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 2: I mean not not a check in, but they do 515 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: a formalized annual exactly. 516 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 3: Which I think is absolutely nuts. 517 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 2: Four seasons has gone past in that time, three hundred 518 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 2: plus sleeps in the office. 519 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean, so much can change in like 520 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 4: a couple of months, and like why we chose six 521 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 4: to eight weeks is like so much can change in 522 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 4: a couple of months, but not heaps can change in 523 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 4: a month, like certainly for us, like or a small 524 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 4: business where a small team, they're not like major changes 525 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 4: going on every month. 526 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the important part there too is that 527 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: something could change quite significantly in a six to eight 528 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: week period, but it's not going to hopefully become so 529 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 2: embedded that it's irreversible. And I always say that the 530 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 2: distance between an issue arising and when we talk about 531 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 2: it reflects the health of any relationship. And so if 532 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: you leave the time between issue arising and talking about 533 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 2: it to an annual check in, that'd suggests that the 534 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: health of the relationship is not as it needs to be. Again, 535 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: personally and professionally, you know, I like to draw parallels 536 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: between all parts of our lives, because how can we not. 537 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 4: And I think something else with that is that you 538 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 4: also don't want it to be so regular, like if 539 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 4: we're doing it weekly, that it becomes background noise and 540 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 4: you become desensitized changes in the system. 541 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 3: So I do think it is a. 542 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 4: Balance between how regularly can you do it that it 543 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,479 Speaker 4: still feels novel and important, but not so infrequently that 544 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 4: you're not catching things pretty close to when they're happening. 545 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also want it to feel meaningful enough 546 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: that it's not like yeah, thumbs up, thumbs down to 547 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: the side. You know at your head, rebi your stomach, 548 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: like we know what's expected here. This is just sort 549 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: of a ruse that we go through where we dance 550 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: around with our thumbs for a minute, but it really 551 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: counts for nothing. So when we ask people in an 552 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 2: organizational setting to give us feedback or to share their 553 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 2: experience and then we do nothing with it, we do 554 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: more damage than if we hadn't asked in the first place. 555 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: So you don't want to be asking so frequently but 556 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: doing nothing with it. Because it's boy who cried wolf. 557 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's so true. 558 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 4: I think of countless examples with clients where they've done 559 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 4: their engagement survey and then three to four months later 560 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 4: they will actually do something with the results, or sometimes 561 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 4: even later than that, and I just think, oh, what 562 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 4: a terrible experience for employees who have done another survey 563 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 4: to see nothing happen, although you know, maybe something happens 564 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 4: five or six months down the track, by which case 565 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 4: you probably give different scores. 566 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 3: Anyway, that is. 567 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: It for Part one of this very personal a couple 568 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: of episodes, but trust me, the conversation is just getting started. 569 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: In Part two, which comes out next Thursday, I dive 570 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: into what finally pulled me out of the freeze, what 571 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: radical transparency really looks like inside inventium, and how I 572 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: rebuilt trust, culture and confidence starting with the work I 573 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: did on myself. We're also going to unpack what to 574 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: do when your team clings too tightly to the past, 575 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: how I almost missed a massive seven figure opportunity for Inventium, 576 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: and why hitting emotional rock bottom turned out to. 577 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 2: Be the turning point. 578 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 3: So if you're not. 579 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: Already following How I Work, now is the time. Just 580 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: tap that follow button wherever you're listening so you don't 581 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: miss the next installment. And if this episode hit home, 582 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: I'd love it if you shared it with someone else 583 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: who might need to hear it too. Thanks so much 584 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: for listening, and I'll see you next week for part two. 585 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: If you like today's show, make sure you git follow 586 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. 587 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 3: How I Work was recorded 588 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 4: On the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of 589 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 4: the Cooler Nation.