1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: Hello, how's your summer going. Are you on a road trip, 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 2: are you recovering from a big party in the sun, 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: or are you just taking a quiet walk, whatever the 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 2: case is, You are listening to a special summer series 11 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 2: of the TDA Podcast. Now, the whole idea here is 12 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: that every day we're going to throw back to a 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: different episode from last year, and we've sat down and 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: chosen some of the most listens to stories of twenty 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: twenty two. But we've also thrown in some of the 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: stories that may have gotten left behind in the news 17 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: cycle and we think they weren't. A bit of an update. 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 2: Back in August, I interviewed Paul Lichnaiski. He's the head 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: of the Clinical Psychedelic Research Lab at Monash University and 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 2: the thing I found most interesting about our chat was 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: the way in which he's trying to navigate some of 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: these social ideas we have around psychedelic drugs and apply 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: them to really serious clinical contexts. It's going to be 24 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 2: a space to watch over the next few years. Stick 25 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: around to the end of the chat to hear an 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 2: update on how close medicinal psychedelics are to being approved 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: in Australia. 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: Just a quick heads up, this episode deals with issues 29 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: around anxiety and depression, So if you're not in the 30 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 3: right head space to be listening to this, we will 31 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 3: check back in with you on Monday. Okay, Sam, there 32 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: is one show that you have told me to watch 33 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 3: a number of times that I have not done, but 34 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: you're obsessed with it. Talk to me about it. 35 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: I'm a huge fan of the odd Netflix doco series 36 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: and this one's really grabbed my attention. It's called How 37 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 2: to Change Your Mind, and it's basically about how psychedelics 38 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: are helping people with mental health issues. 39 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 3: Okay, so it plays out in an American context, but 40 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 3: today we're bringing it home talking about it here in Australia. 41 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 2: Well, after watching the docco, we did a little bit 42 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 2: more digging and we found that there are trials going 43 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: on at multiple Australian universities right now to determine just that. 44 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: And I was totally fascinated by. 45 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 3: This, so much so that I legitimately think you mentioned 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 3: it every day last week. 47 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: So to find out more about how this is playing out, 48 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: I reached out to the head of the Clinical Psychedelic 49 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: Research Lab at Monash University down in Melbourne to talk 50 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,839 Speaker 2: about a super interesting trial they're running for the use 51 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: of psilocybin in the treatment of generalized anxiety. 52 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 4: My name's Paul Lackinitski. I head up the Clinical Psychedelic 53 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 4: Research Lab at Monash University. So the lab is a 54 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 4: hive of activity right now after many years of preparation 55 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 4: and waiting or the tide to shift. But it's safe 56 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 4: to say the field in Australia of psychedelic research is 57 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 4: alive and well and growing very rapidly. 58 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 5: And so what area at Monasha you specifically looking into. 59 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 4: So we are establishing a number of clinical trials this 60 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 4: year using psychedelics for different mental health indications. One trial 61 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 4: is psilocybin assistant psychotherapy and the treatment of generalized anxiety disorder. 62 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 5: What is psilocybin poor. 63 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 4: So psilocybin is the psychoactive ingredient in magic mushrooms. We 64 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 4: use synthetic psilocybin in research trials as do all others. 65 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 4: It is a classic psychedelic It exerts almost all of 66 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 4: its psychoactive effects through a single receptor in the brain. 67 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 4: Just activates one receptor subtype that produces these widespread effects, 68 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 4: and the kinds of effects that people experience are highly varied, 69 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 4: but at high dose, which is what we use in 70 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 4: our trials twenty five milligrams of synthetic psilocybin, it produces 71 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 4: a remarkable and dramatic altered state of consciousness that entails 72 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 4: changes to the way you think, the way you feel, 73 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 4: and the kinds of things you can perceive, and for 74 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 4: all kinds of reasons, seems to be incredibly useful for 75 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 4: a lot of people in terms of their therapeutic process. 76 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 4: Often there is a dramatic shift in perspective that people 77 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 4: can gain, whereby they are seeing old problems from a 78 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 4: completely new angle, and a whole set of insights often ensue, 79 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 4: and most importantly, the kinds of insights that people experience 80 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 4: under the influence of well supported psilocybin are not just 81 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 4: heavy thoughts or abstractions about yourself or the world or others, 82 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 4: but rather often very deeply felt, sometimes very embodied, and 83 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 4: it's a kind of encounter if you like that can 84 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 4: leave a lasting change on a person. 85 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 5: What do you mean by well supported psilocybin docgy and 86 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 5: tell us about how you're supporting individuals through the trials. 87 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 4: Well, this is a really important and often overlooked aspect 88 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 4: of the treatment. When people talk about psychedelic medicine, just 89 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 4: by virtue of the framing, the idea is often that 90 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 4: what is most important there is the psychedelic when in 91 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 4: reality we're delivering psychedelic assystem therapy, which is a form 92 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 4: of augmented psychotherapy, and the nature of the support and 93 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 4: the environment is perhaps just as important as the nature 94 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 4: of the drug effects. So we use a psychotherapeutic model 95 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 4: that has the typical three phases of treatment in psychedelic therapies. 96 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 4: We prepare people, which is geared around developing a strong 97 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 4: relationship in a short period of time and increasing trust 98 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 4: in the whole process, and also a whole set of 99 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 4: pragmatics around what the dosing day entails. And then there's 100 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 4: the dosing sessions. Different trials have different numbers of dosing sessions, 101 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 4: and in the high dose studies they are all day sessions. 102 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 4: Psychoactive effects of high dose psilocybin are about six to 103 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 4: eight hours, and the process there is often quite internal, 104 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 4: but there can be all kinds of different expressions of 105 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 4: thought and feeling and relationality in the room. And then 106 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 4: there's an integration phase with a number of sessions that 107 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 4: follow each dosing session, where the therapists are assisting participants 108 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 4: to make meaning out of their experience, to regain a 109 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 4: sense of proximity to that experience and the kind of 110 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 4: insights they had or the alignment to their values that 111 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 4: felt very important during the dosing session. Often, and in 112 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 4: our case with the trials we're doing, there are a 113 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 4: number of cycles of that process of support. So clearly 114 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 4: the classic psychedects can be therapeutically useful for people who 115 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 4: use them in the wild, even without support, but in 116 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 4: some cases they're not useful. In some cases they can 117 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 4: be detrimental, and there certainly are all kinds of safety 118 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 4: concerns that we mitigate very well in the control context 119 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 4: in which we deliver psychedelics that are often not mitigated 120 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 4: well when people use them in the wild. In that study, 121 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 4: we also have a sub study associated with it, which 122 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 4: is the opportunity for our therapists to undergo a high 123 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 4: dose psilocybin session with supportive conditions as part of their training, 124 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 4: and that's another world first. There's not been a study 125 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 4: like it before with psilocybin. Although in the first way 126 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 4: psychedelic psychiatry in the fifties, sixties, and early seventies, it 127 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 4: was absolutely standard that psychedelic practitioners had experience with LSD, 128 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 4: which was the flagship psychedelic of that era. But in 129 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 4: the modern era, we've seen only one other example of 130 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 4: a psychedelic like drug being used as a training tool, 131 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 4: which is in the case of the MAPS MDMA studies, 132 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 4: where they offer their therapists the opportunity to undergo MDMA 133 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 4: as part of their training. So we're assessing, we're assessing 134 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 4: the utility of psilocybin with support as a training tool 135 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 4: from both the perspective of the therapists and also from 136 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 4: the perspective of their clinical participants. And it's worth noting 137 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 4: that all the therapists on team who are a wonderful 138 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 4: bunch of people. I feel very fortunate to work with them. 139 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 4: They're all qualified and highly experienced mental health care workers 140 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 4: of different sorts who have then undergone a training program 141 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 4: with us, and this opportunity to have is the final 142 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 4: piece of that. 143 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 5: And Paul, what's the hypothesis there with giving therapists associated 144 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 5: doses as well? Is it that increases the sense of 145 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 5: empathy and that then increases the quality of the therapy. 146 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 4: Well, these are empirical questions. We're going to be assessing 147 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 4: this over the course of this trial. But the rationale 148 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 4: for it is that having had a similar supported psilocybin 149 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 4: session for therapists may increase their capacities to be a 150 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 4: therapist in a number of respects. The one is, as 151 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 4: you say, the potential to increase empathy for the participants 152 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 4: who are undergoing psychedelic experience. And this may be particularly 153 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 4: pertinent given how dramatic and unusual and ineffable psychedelic experiences are. 154 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 4: They are by definition impossible to describe, so you can't 155 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 4: write it down in a manual and convey what it 156 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 4: is that the participant is going through. And this also 157 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 4: potentially extends to their ability to provide appropriate support. Very often, 158 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 4: people under the influence of psilocybin are highly sensitive, and 159 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 4: it can be the case that the very well intentioned 160 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 4: support can be misaligned to the needs of the participant, 161 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 4: and so having a very nuanced sense of what a 162 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 4: participant is going through may increase the alignment. But also 163 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 4: there's you know, there are other rationals. For example, participants 164 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 4: will often ask therapists for good reason, when they're nervous 165 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 4: and about to go into their dosing session. They'll often 166 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 4: ask their therapists whether they've had the same experience before, 167 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 4: seeking that kind of reassurance from somebody with experience, and 168 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 4: it's very useful for the therapists in our trial to 169 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 4: be able to answer that they have. You know, by analogy, 170 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 4: if you were to be on your first astronaut trip 171 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 4: to another planet and the only support you receive is 172 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 4: via radio from ground control, it'd be quite nice to 173 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 4: know that the people that are guiding you on your 174 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 4: travels on this foreign planet have at least some understanding 175 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 4: and preferably even prior experience traveling on that planet themselves. 176 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 5: How does the psilocybin play out in one with generalized 177 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 5: anxiety disorder? 178 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 4: For people struggling with depression or maybe a substance dependence 179 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 4: or anxiety. Often the kinds of processes that people report 180 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 4: from psychedelic treatments look quite similar. People will often report 181 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 4: going deep into their past or deep into their belief 182 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 4: structure and finding a completely new way of relating to 183 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: themselves or the world. And with anxiety. What we don't 184 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: know what the mechanisms of change will be in this 185 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 4: particular trial that is underway right now. We're assessing mechanisms, 186 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 4: and we're assessing aspects that we think may be important 187 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 4: in driving change. But I think it's likely to be 188 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 4: the case that underlying these symptoms are a set of 189 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 4: experiences that people avoid. That's often a key factor in 190 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 4: mental illness and mental pathologies, that there is a set 191 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 4: of experiences that are overwhelming or unbearable for people, and 192 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 4: those experiences are avoided and replaced by either a substance use, 193 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 4: or a depressive belief structure or an anxiety. And when 194 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 4: people have this opportunity to have unprecedented contact with the 195 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 4: sources of their distress, the very thing that they've spent 196 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 4: a lot of their lives avoiding, there is that opportunity 197 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 4: to find a new relationship to that source of distress. 198 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 4: Often it's not the case that this source of distress 199 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 4: disappears or the memory goes or anything like that. There 200 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,680 Speaker 4: is a way in which that can be shifted from 201 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 4: being kind of petrified and locked in time to being 202 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 4: dynamic and having the opportunity to kind of enter into 203 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 4: a virtual cycle of learning where new repertoires can be 204 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 4: set down and people can change the way they think 205 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 4: and feel and behave. 206 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 5: So can we enroll as candidates in the study? 207 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 4: Yes, so people can apply to enroll in our studies 208 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: and Monish University. Of course, the eligibility criteria are very 209 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 4: strict and quite narrow for both safety and scientific reasons, 210 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 4: and so it's worth just saying that many more people 211 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 4: apply than we can accommodate. But there is one trial 212 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 4: Admonish that is currently in treatment phase, and there will 213 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 4: be a couple more coming online later this year. If 214 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 4: somebody would like to apply and currently experiences generalized anxiety 215 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 4: disorder symptoms, they can just simply write to PSILOCYBINU and 216 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 4: they'll receive a link in response. 217 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 5: Paul, we we can't tell you how much we appreciate 218 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 5: your time and it sounds like some fascinating work you're 219 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 5: doing and I'm really looking forward to seeing the results 220 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 5: of the clinical trials and the years ahead. 221 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me appreciate it. 222 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: Since we did this episode, the Therapeutic Goods Administration, that's 223 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: the organization that's in charge of approving medication in Australia, 224 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: made an announcement about psilocybin. They were looking at whether 225 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: it's use in combination with psychotherapy for treatment resistant mental 226 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: illnesses should be allowed in what they describe as medically 227 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: controlled environments. Their interim decision was that it shouldn't be allowed. 228 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of our special TDA 229 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: summer series. We'll be back to normal programming on the 230 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: sixteenth of January, but if you want some more breaking 231 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: news in the meantime, open your phone and find us 232 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: on Instagram. It's currently where over four hundred and ten 233 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: thousand Australians get their news, and we are on even 234 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: though you're on holiday.