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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. I'm so excited for

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Speaker 2: this conversation today on the Happy Families Podcast. A couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks ago, I jumped onto Facebook and shared this

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Speaker 2: idea of a sleep divorce. Now the name doesn't sound

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Speaker 2: very nice in some ways, because as soon as you

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Speaker 2: mentioned divorce, people start to worry. But the Facebook feed

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Speaker 2: just went absolutely nuts. People jumped online and started to

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Speaker 2: say all kinds of things about having a sleep divorce

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Speaker 2: and the benefits of it. If you haven't heard of

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Speaker 2: a sleep divorce, well, actually I'm going to let my

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Speaker 2: guests explain what it is. Let's just say there are

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of people who are out there who

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Speaker 2: love the idea, and there was so much online activity

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Speaker 2: around this that I thought I need to talk to

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Speaker 2: somebody who was an expert in sleep divorce or in

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Speaker 2: sleep for couples when you're sharing a bed and everything

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Speaker 2: associated with that. So today we're going to have a

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Speaker 2: conversation with doctor Wendy Troxal. Doctor Troxel is senior behavioral

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Speaker 2: scientist at the RAND corporation and adjunct faculty at both

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Speaker 2: the Universities of Pittsburgh and Utah, licensed clinical psychologists, certified

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Speaker 2: behavioral sleep medicine specialist, more than fifteen pably well several

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Speaker 2: more than that are now years of clinical and research

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Speaker 2: experience in sleep medicine. I could go on. The bio

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Speaker 2: is impressive. But Wendy's written this great book called Sharing

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Speaker 2: The covers Every Couple's Guide to Better Sleep, and I

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Speaker 2: wish that I'd found this book when I first got married.

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Speaker 2: So my wife Kylie and I when we started sharing

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Speaker 2: a bed, we couldn't sleep, We couldn't touch each other.

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Speaker 2: We found that as soon as we touched each other

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Speaker 2: there was all of this well I'm going to use

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Speaker 2: the word stimulation, but not necessarily in the way that

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Speaker 2: people might think, and we just couldn't get any sleep. Wendy,

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Speaker 2: thanks for joining me on The Happy Family's podcast. Is

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Speaker 2: this a common thing that people struggle to sleep in

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Speaker 2: a bed together?

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Speaker 3: Well, thanks so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: It's a real pleasure, And yes, it is sort of

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Speaker 1: surprisingly common and yet so thoroughly discussed and under understood,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the major reasons why I wanted

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Speaker 1: to write the book compiling all of what is known

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Speaker 1: from a scientific basis and also the clinical evidence concerning

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Speaker 1: both the pros and cons of sleeping together or apart,

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Speaker 1: and giving couples real strategies and solutions to find out

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Speaker 1: what's going to work best for them in the bedroom

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Speaker 1: when it comes to sleep, not just sex.

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Speaker 2: I think this is fascinating. Until recently, I'd never heard

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Speaker 2: of this idea of a sleep divorce. Certainly had never

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Speaker 2: contemplated it at all. It was just a given that

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Speaker 2: my wife and I were going to sleep in the

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Speaker 2: same bed together, and we do, and we've talked about it,

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Speaker 2: and I don't get to that shortly. But since this

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Speaker 2: conversation on Facebook a few weeks ago, I keep meeting

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Speaker 2: people who tell me that they are in committed relationships

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Speaker 2: but they sleep in separate beds, and they often sleep

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Speaker 2: in separate rooms as well, and obviously discover the informal

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Speaker 2: term getting a sleep divorce. Just tell me a bit

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Speaker 2: more about the whole idea of a sleep divorce. Why

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Speaker 2: do people have sleep divorce?

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Speaker 1: So there's lots of reasons for this particular sleeping arrangement

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Speaker 1: which has been given by the media. This catchy the

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Speaker 1: really judge term of sleep divorce, which I try to

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Speaker 1: avoid as much as possible, because, as you said, in

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Speaker 1: no shape or form is it ever sort of okay

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Speaker 1: and benign to talk about the word divorce when in

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Speaker 1: the context of your relationship it has all of these

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Speaker 1: negative connotations. So I do try to, you know, avoid

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Speaker 1: using that, as catchy as it is. But again, it

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Speaker 1: refers to the myriad of reasons why couples may choose

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Speaker 1: to sleep apart. Now, those reasons may include children that

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Speaker 1: like to weasel their way in between the two of you,

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Speaker 1: making you know, three as a crowd, and making sleep

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Speaker 1: really challenging for.

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Speaker 3: All of you.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there's a sleep disorder in one or both partners,

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Speaker 1: or maybe one partner snores that's a big culprit, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it's something sort of more mundane, like you know,

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Speaker 1: someone you know tosses and turns, or one likes it

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Speaker 1: really hot at night, one likes it cold, or one's

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Speaker 1: just a really light sleeper, or maybe you have different

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Speaker 1: work schedules, or maybe I know about you.

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Speaker 3: You're a cyclist, so you're.

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Speaker 1: Waking up at the crack of dawn to head out

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Speaker 1: and go for your ride, which might not exactly map

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Speaker 1: on to your wife's preferred sleep schedule. So for lots

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Speaker 1: of reasons, couples may come to I hope the decision,

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Speaker 1: though often it's not a decision per se.

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Speaker 3: It's more of a reaction, and we can get to that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, really it comes down to if one

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Speaker 1: or both partners are not sleeping well, they may arrive

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Speaker 1: at this arrangement of sleeping apart. Now how they arrive

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Speaker 1: at that arrangement is really the most critical thing. As

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Speaker 1: I said, If it's an active decision based on a

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Speaker 1: healthy and open and honest conversation between partners, that could

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Speaker 1: have no ill effects. In fact, you can have benefits

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Speaker 1: for a relationship, particularly if both partners are going to

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Speaker 1: sleep better. On the other hand, if it ends up

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Speaker 1: being a reactive strategy really where one partner just marches

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Speaker 1: out of the bedroom in complete frustration because he or

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Speaker 1: she is not sleeping because maybe her partner is snoring

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Speaker 1: so loudly, and there's really never a discussion about, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe we should try this because you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sleeping well and when I don't sleep well, I can't

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Speaker 1: be as good a partner to you. That's kind of

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Speaker 1: the healthy conversation have. But if that doesn't happen, if

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Speaker 1: it's just sort of reactive and angry, that's when sort

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Speaker 1: of resentment and a sense of abandonment might occur. And

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Speaker 1: again that's one of the reasons why in my book,

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Speaker 1: I help couples start having these conversations about this critical.

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Speaker 3: Third of our lives.

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Speaker 1: We really do spend about of our third a third

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Speaker 1: of our lives asleep, and so that's a major part

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Speaker 1: of our coupled existence, so we ought to have some

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Speaker 1: real conversation about it.

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Speaker 2: It's one of those strange things, isn't it. When do

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Speaker 2: we take it for granted? We all know that we

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Speaker 2: sleep approximately eight hours of the twenty four so that's

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Speaker 2: a third. But when you're reminded of it and put

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Speaker 2: it front the center, it becomes a really important part

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Speaker 2: of our lives. I know, and you mentioned my cycling.

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Speaker 2: I'm so sensitive to the fact that when my alarm

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Speaker 2: goes off at four fifteen or four twenty in the morning,

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Speaker 2: there's this person that I'm crazy about right beside me

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Speaker 2: who's being disturbed by it. And sometimes I'll get home

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Speaker 2: a couple of hours later and Kylie will be awaken,

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Speaker 2: will have been awake since, and I feel so bad.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about my conversation with Kylie about a sleep

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Speaker 2: divorce shortly. What I'd like to know now, though, is

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Speaker 2: you've written You've written a book about this, I mean

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Speaker 2: about how we can sleep well as a couple sharing

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Speaker 2: the covers, and when you wrote the book, what science

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Speaker 2: did you find that would support a sleep divorce.

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Speaker 1: So some of the research I discuss concerns the impact

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Speaker 1: of sleep loss on relationship functioning. So we know from

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Speaker 1: my work and others that you know, when we're not

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Speaker 1: getting the sleep we need, our communications skills suffer. We're

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Speaker 1: more prone to mental health problems like depression and anxiety,

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Speaker 1: which you're going to have a negative impact on relationships.

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Speaker 1: We're more prone to conflict. Our frustration tolerance is lowered,

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Speaker 1: so we're more likely to snap at our partner. Interestingly,

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Speaker 1: we also have less empathic accuracy, which is the ability

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Speaker 1: to read and understand your partner's emotions, which, as you know,

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Speaker 1: is absolutely critical in the context of a relationship. So

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Speaker 1: how you sleep can actually impact the quality of your relationships.

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Speaker 1: I also cover the research on sleep and sex. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of sort of mythology out there about how

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Speaker 1: sex is good for sleep. I can tell you actually

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Speaker 1: that the research in terms of that direction is equivocal.

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Speaker 3: We don't know for sure.

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Speaker 1: It's probably that for some people sex is good for sleep,

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Speaker 1: for others it's too stimulating, and like you said, not

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Speaker 1: stimulating in the good way, just meaning that it keeps

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Speaker 1: you awake at night rather than helping you do unwind.

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Speaker 1: So while that research is somewhat next, what we do

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Speaker 1: absolutely know is that sleep is good for sex. So

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Speaker 1: when you're sleeping well, sexual frequency increases, as well as

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Speaker 1: sexual desire, particularly for women. So yet another reason from

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Speaker 1: a scientific basis of why it's so important for couples

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Speaker 1: to start considering the role of sleep in the life of.

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Speaker 3: The relationship, and yet it's so often neglected.

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Speaker 2: Wendy, what I'm hearing in this conversation is that you're

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Speaker 2: not so much advocating for a quote unquote sleep divorce,

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Speaker 2: that unfortunate term. What you're advocating for is couples working

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Speaker 2: out how they're going to sleep best because it's going

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Speaker 2: to be good for their relationship. And I really, I

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Speaker 2: really love the way that you're setting that up. After

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Speaker 2: the break, we're going to have a quick chat about

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Speaker 2: any disadvantages to setting up your sleeping arrangements like this,

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to share a couple of things that

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Speaker 2: people have said as they jumped onto Facebook that made

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Speaker 2: me think that maybe this is something worth considering. If

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Speaker 2: you've got a teen, you're likely already worried about alcohol

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Speaker 2: and drug use. As a parent, you want to know

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Speaker 2: how do we protect them, how do we teach them?

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Speaker 2: How do we know if they're up to something? Pot

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Speaker 2: Pills and parenting will equip and empower you to help

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Speaker 2: your twins and teens navigate one of the most challenging

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Speaker 2: adolescent issues today. Available on the Happy Families webshop. It's

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Speaker 2: the Happy Famili's podcast, the podcast for the typop parent

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Speaker 2: who just wants answers Now Today. My guest on the

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Speaker 2: podcast is doctor Wendy Troxel. Wendy is the author of

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Speaker 2: Sharing the Covers, Every Couple's Guide to Better Sleep. Really

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Speaker 2: fascinated by this discussion we're having around the idea of

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Speaker 2: having a quote unquote sleep divorce, Wendy want to put

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Speaker 2: the question to people on Facebook. I mean I had

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Speaker 2: two or three conversations in a day or two with

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Speaker 2: people who said, yeah, this is what I do. I

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Speaker 2: don't sleep in the same bedroom as my husband and

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Speaker 2: my wife, my partner. We sleep in different rooms, different beds,

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Speaker 2: and it's the best thing we've ever done. And when

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Speaker 2: I think about a close relationship, I just imagine that

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Speaker 2: everybody always sleeps in the same bed, and I just well,

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Speaker 2: I'm even struggling for the words right now. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know how to respond, so I threw it on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: And here's what some people said. Let me read this

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Speaker 2: one to you. The best thing we've done. We sleep better,

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Speaker 2: We actually rest, We get up in a good mood

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Speaker 2: and keep our identities separated in different rooms and get

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Speaker 2: along well, love it. We get used to sleeping alone

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Speaker 2: while we're growing up. Then when we marry we're supposed

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Speaker 2: to sleep together and change our routine and get used

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Speaker 2: to it. Just like that. It doesn't always work that way,

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Speaker 2: and it's fine. Don't let society dictate your life. One

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Speaker 2: mum jumped on and said I would love to sleep

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Speaker 2: divorce my kids. Another one said, absolutely, best thing we do.

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Speaker 2: Doing this does not have a negative impact on our intimacy.

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Speaker 2: Intimacy and sex isn't just for the bed or for

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Speaker 2: the bedroom. When the communication, affection, support, empathy, and love

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Speaker 2: is strong in the relationship. It doesn't matter what bed

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Speaker 2: you're sleep in or if the children room bed with you,

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Speaker 2: because intimacy can be given and received in so many

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Speaker 2: forms and places, and sex can be fun and fabulous anywhere.

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Speaker 2: So we need to talk about the intimate question. In

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Speaker 2: just a sick to other quick comments, one person said,

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Speaker 2: I give it one hundred and out of ten, one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty percent would recommend it will save your marriage,

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Speaker 2: not joking. And one last person said, done it?

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Speaker 3: Do it?

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Speaker 2: In fact? Rate it so highly. So the overwhelming response

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Speaker 2: from people was this is great. But the overwhelming question

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Speaker 2: that came through was what about intimacy? How do you

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Speaker 2: navigate that? Especially if there are kids in the house

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Speaker 2: and they're watching you go to one room and then

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Speaker 2: it's so like musical beds. How do you navigate that

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Speaker 2: as a couple.

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Speaker 1: So that's sort of the single biggest concern, And as

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Speaker 1: you know an expert who studies is sleep in the

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Speaker 1: context of relationships, That's the one question I'm asked most

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Speaker 1: frequently of all that, like if I sleep apart, you know,

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Speaker 1: does it mean like the end of our sex life?

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Speaker 1: And the answer is absolutely not. Many couples who choose

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Speaker 1: to sleep apart actually find that it enhances their sex

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Speaker 1: life because, by the way, one of the primary sort

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Speaker 1: of reasons given for not having sex is the old

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Speaker 1: I'm too tired for sex, So by getting good sleep

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Speaker 1: you might actually be more inclined to have sex and

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Speaker 1: enjoy it more so. In the idea also that sex

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Speaker 1: only occurs at night and in bed, one of your

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Speaker 1: one of the comments from Facebook actually alluded to this

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Speaker 1: beautifully is I mean, the idea that.

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Speaker 3: Sex has to occur at night and in bed and is.

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Speaker 1: Always spontaneous is really sort of an overrated idea and

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Speaker 1: not really characteristic of most long term relationships, particularly when

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Speaker 1: kids enter the picture. Right Like, sex can and often

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Speaker 1: needs to be planned so you're not both exhausted, so

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Speaker 1: you know, the kids are out of the room, so

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Speaker 1: that you can actually have some reasonable enjoyment and have desire.

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Speaker 3: For sexual activity. And so couples who choose to.

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Speaker 1: Sleep apart find lots of strategies to maintain intimacy, including

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Speaker 1: you know, finding times during the daytime or before eithertner

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Speaker 1: goes to sleep, and then they go to their separate

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Speaker 1: bedrooms or maybe it's in the morning, which again based

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Speaker 1: on our circadian preferences, which is that some of us

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Speaker 1: are more mourning type people, some of us are evening

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Speaker 1: type people. Those circadian preferences not only dictate or help

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Speaker 1: to govern our sleep wake schedules, but they also govern

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Speaker 1: other activities, including our enjoyment for sex. Though so for

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Speaker 1: some couples it may be that other times of day

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Speaker 1: that may be scheduled might be a better time for

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Speaker 1: sex anyway, So there are certainly ways to maintain intimacy

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Speaker 1: even if couples choose.

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Speaker 3: To sleep apart.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing I want to mention, even your

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Speaker 1: reaction to this, that it was sort of breathtaking to

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Speaker 1: you the idea that some couples could say this strategy.

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Speaker 3: Really works for the relationship because it's so.

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Speaker 1: Ingrained for so many that there is one way for

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Speaker 1: couples to sleep, and that is together in the marital

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Speaker 1: bed is sake. And I'm actually somebody who does believe

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Speaker 1: in the sacredness of sharing time together in bed.

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Speaker 3: But the idea that there's.

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Speaker 1: Only one way to sleep together is a totally socially

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Speaker 1: prescribed phenomenon, and it's actually very tremendously across history and

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Speaker 1: across cultures, and so we have this rigid sort of hold.

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Speaker 3: On the marital bed.

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Speaker 1: And again it's societally prescribed. And my message to couples,

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Speaker 1: I'm not prescribing anything to any couples for such an

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Speaker 1: intimate behavior. I'm saying, prioritize sleep for the health of

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Speaker 1: your relationship. How you do that is really going to

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Speaker 1: vary based on your own couple, individual needs, preferences, and values.

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Speaker 1: But do have a conversation about it with your partner,

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Speaker 1: and do try to do everything you can to ensure

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Speaker 1: that both you and your partner are getting the sleep

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Speaker 1: you need to be the best partner.

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Speaker 2: You can be. Wendy, the more that I've spoken with

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Speaker 2: people and I reckon, I've probably bumped into half a

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Speaker 2: dozen people who have told me that this is what

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Speaker 2: they do now. They sleep in separate rooms, even though

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Speaker 2: they're in wonderfully happy relationships. It still seems like such

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Speaker 2: an uncommon concept. I raised it with Kylie and said, Honey,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I'm having all these conversations with people.

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Speaker 2: Are you sleeping okay? Am I sleeping okay? Are you

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Speaker 2: happy with our sleeping arrangement? Should we consider anything else.

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Speaker 2: Kylie very much wanted to share the bed with me,

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Speaker 2: and I felt the same way. My question to you, though,

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Speaker 2: is what happens when one person actually thinks I need this.

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Speaker 2: I've got a partner who's snoring, or I've got a

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Speaker 2: partner who's doing shift work, or the kids are just

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Speaker 2: driving us crazy and we are not getting to sleep,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not functioning well. Nothing is going right for

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Speaker 2: me when it comes to sleep. How do they navigate

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Speaker 2: that when one partner is adamant that know, if we're married,

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Speaker 2: or if when this relationship we show our commitment by

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Speaker 2: sleeping together and the other partner's going but I'm quietly

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Speaker 2: dying of exhaustion over here exactly now.

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Speaker 1: I see this quite a bit, and often couples who

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Speaker 1: come to me in my clinic work, we have to

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Speaker 1: negotiate these kind of issues where one partner.

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Speaker 3: Is sleeping well.

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Speaker 1: And you know, really benefits from sharing a bed, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to at all underestimate that for many

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Speaker 1: people there are huge benefits of sharing a bed. The

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Speaker 1: psychological sense of safety and security that you get from

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Speaker 1: being close to a loved one at night.

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Speaker 3: That's really important. The issue is that.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, if one partner is just for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, not sleeping, well, how do you come to

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Speaker 1: grips and find a place of compromise for that? And

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Speaker 1: I often work with couples on that, and sometimes it

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Speaker 1: comes down to experimenting with different strategies so that both

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Speaker 1: needs are met. And again, this is what we do

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Speaker 1: in all sorts of relationship therapy. We're just now focusing

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Speaker 1: on the third of the day that we neglect, which

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Speaker 1: is sleep. But negotiation and compromise is a part of

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Speaker 1: all relationships. So for instance, it might be that the

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Speaker 1: person who feels like I could never sleep apart from

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Speaker 1: my partner, because that really means something like, you know,

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Speaker 1: our shared time and debt is a cornerstone of our relationship.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard for that person to even fathom the

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Speaker 1: idea of sleeping apart. So I might suggest to them.

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Speaker 1: But the other person is, as you said, just struggling,

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Speaker 1: starving for sleep and really suffering, and that we know

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Speaker 1: could have a negative impact not only on the individual,

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Speaker 1: but also on the relationship. So I might suggest to

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Speaker 1: that couple. You know, well, first of all, let's find

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Speaker 1: out what's going on with the partner. Who's not sleeping well.

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Speaker 1: Do they have a sleep disorder which needs to be treated.

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Speaker 1: We'll work on that absolutely, because an undiagnosed sleep disorder

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Speaker 1: can have other ramifications beyond the relationship, and often that's

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Speaker 1: true when it comes to snoring. I always say, if

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Speaker 1: snoring is causing a rift in your sleeping arrangements, first

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Speaker 1: determined if that's a sign of another sleep disorder, such

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Speaker 1: as sleep apnea, which really needs to be treated, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it's insomnia, which is also a clinical disorder which

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Speaker 1: has significant consequences both for the relationship and beyond. So

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Speaker 1: make sure that's being treated. But beyond that, one partner

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Speaker 1: is still just really struggling while sharing a bed. Maybe

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Speaker 1: what you do is experiment with the idea of try

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Speaker 1: this sleeping apart, maybe just on the weekend initially, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it's actually one day during the week. Let's say

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Speaker 1: one partner has a really big work day the next

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Speaker 1: day and needs to get a good night of sleep

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Speaker 1: and isn't sleeping well. So maybe you try a night

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Speaker 1: or two during the work week when the stakes are

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Speaker 1: really high, try to sleeping apart, but then have a

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Speaker 1: reunion either on the weekend or on the subsequent nights.

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Speaker 1: These kind of like short term experiments within a couple

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Speaker 1: allows them to test out the validity of these very

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Speaker 1: strongly held beliefs.

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Speaker 2: It's been a fascinating conversation. Really really enjoyed it. Doctor

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Speaker 2: Wendy Truxel is the author of Sharing the Covers Every

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Speaker 2: Couple's God to Be to Sleep. We will link to

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Speaker 2: that in the show notes. Wendy, if people want more

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Speaker 2: information about the work that you do, the book that

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Speaker 2: you've written, or anything else related to this, where should

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Speaker 2: they go for more resources?

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much for the opportunity to speak with

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Speaker 1: you today. It's been a delight. Yes, my book I

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Speaker 1: encourage you to take a look at it and covers

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Speaker 1: many more topics beyond sleep, divorce, all of the issues

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Speaker 1: that come up when it comes to couples and sleep

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Speaker 1: and how to get better sleep together or apart. I

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Speaker 1: also have a website, Wendy Truxel dot com. You can

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Speaker 1: find me on Instagram. Sharing the Covers is my Instagram handle,

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Speaker 1: Wendy Truxel is my Twitter handle, and you can see

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Speaker 1: lots of media interviews with me and that pop up

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Speaker 1: every now and then, pretty much anytime there's a discussion

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Speaker 1: of couples in sleep.

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Speaker 2: It's a great title for the book. Thank you again

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Speaker 2: for your time.

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Speaker 3: Wendy, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much.

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Speaker 2: It's doctor Wendy Truxel, author of Sharing the Covers. Great

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Speaker 2: title for a great book, for a fantastic conversation and topic.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Rulan from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if

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Speaker 2: you'd like morronfo about making your family happier, visit happy

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Speaker 2: families dot com. Dora you