Speaker 1: Hello, my name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud yor
Speaker 1: the Order KERNI Whoalbury and a waddery woman. And before
Speaker 1: we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I
Speaker 1: would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land
Speaker 1: of which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country,
Speaker 1: acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming
Speaker 1: through as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing
Speaker 1: and the storytelling of you to make a difference for
Speaker 1: today and lasting impact for tomorrow.
Speaker 2: Let's get into it.
Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money with us.
Speaker 2: That's here to make your business smarter, your leadership shoper,
Speaker 2: and your workplace well less of a stress fest. I
Speaker 2: am Victoria Devine, retired financial advisor, author of the Business Bible,
Speaker 2: and owner of several successful businesses. It's never not going
Speaker 2: to be weird, Jessica saying that out loud, and today
Speaker 2: it's a Business Bible episode. But don't scroll away if
Speaker 2: you're not running your own business, because this one is
Speaker 2: jam packed with tips for anyone in the workplace, whether
Speaker 2: you're managing a team, working on your career, or just
Speaker 2: trying to navigate office life like a pro. We've got
Speaker 2: you covered, from building a team culture that slaps to
Speaker 2: handling those tricky Jessica, can we talk conversations? We're breaking
Speaker 2: down the top five HR rules to make work less
Speaker 2: complicated and dare I say, actually, enjoyable, love, be nice
Speaker 2: and joining me today? Is the hardest working side hustler.
Speaker 2: I know that thankfully doesn't have any employees, so it
Speaker 2: can be really rile on this show. It's just greatchy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: HR's the bin my business. So you're like, what time
Speaker 2: we did have a sticker on the shredder that said HR, Yeah,
Speaker 2: submit to your complaint there. I mean, it was a
Speaker 2: flawless system until we had to grow up because we
Speaker 2: became an actual business.
Speaker 4: Yes, it is a really important conversation to have. Culture
Speaker 4: really is the foundation of any business. You obviously have
Speaker 4: studied organizational psychology VD, so I feel like you're gonna
Speaker 4: have a little bit more insight into how that kind
Speaker 4: of impacted the way that you manage people in the workplace.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, does it ever? I feel like I
Speaker 2: wish I could just step into being a mediocre, middle
Speaker 2: aged white man middle manager. Would be nice, will be
Speaker 2: nice because they just don't care. They're like, yes, we've
Speaker 2: got to talk. And then then what let you steal
Speaker 2: all weekend? Couldn't be me? Couldn't been dead before the meeting,
Speaker 2: wouldn't been me? Like I send meeting requests with catch
Speaker 2: up in brackets, good thing, don't worry, Yeah, because I
Speaker 2: am so worried that I'll stress you out over nothing.
Speaker 2: But I also have a very clean framework of performance
Speaker 2: management if things aren't going as well as they should,
Speaker 2: which is important. Yeah, I feel like yes and no,
Speaker 2: Like it's kind of like helped obviously, but it's also
Speaker 2: hindered not making it bad. But I do put a
Speaker 2: lot of pressure on myself to make sure that it's
Speaker 2: an enjoyable workplace and things are going well. And I
Speaker 2: don't know, I'm not a genius. I'm just a girl
Speaker 2: out here trying to do my best. We all, but
Speaker 2: we do have some rules, you know, all right? Tell
Speaker 2: me about these rules? What's number one? All right? So
Speaker 2: first things first, I think it's about getting really clear
Speaker 2: on your HR policies early and also knowing your legal obligations.
Speaker 2: So from my perspective, HR policies are kind of like
Speaker 2: the rule book of how your workplace should work, and
Speaker 2: there's a free one online, Like you can go onto
Speaker 2: the fair Work website. They will have that HR Policies
Speaker 2: and Procedure document that you can download and edit to
Speaker 2: your heart's content. Without them, I think you're setting your
Speaker 2: team up for some confusion and inconsistency, an unnecessary drama.
Speaker 2: And then if you're also a first time employer, it's
Speaker 2: a really good like expectation setter with you. You might
Speaker 2: not know that you have these obligations. Yeah, like you
Speaker 2: might go, oh, I didn't realize that I had to
Speaker 2: give them twenty four hours noticed for this type of meeting,
Speaker 2: or I didn't realize that I needed to do a
Speaker 2: B and C. And that doesn't mean that you're a
Speaker 2: bad manager. It just means you've not led people before.
Speaker 2: And if you have led people before and you don't
Speaker 2: know these obligations, it's a good reminder to go and
Speaker 2: do that. So clear policies protect everyone. I know that
Speaker 2: lots of people will say, well, HR's they are to
Speaker 2: protect the company, And from the perspective of an employer,
Speaker 2: yes it is, and why is it, Because if I'm
Speaker 2: doing the right thing by you, Jess, I'm protecting the company.
Speaker 2: Like I'm not here to do the wrong thing like HR,
Speaker 2: And having a HR person doesn't mean you can't take
Speaker 2: me to fair work if I did the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you can't, you know, seek legal
Speaker 2: injunction if you need to, Like, yeah, it doesn't protect
Speaker 2: me in that way. So yes, HR works for me,
Speaker 2: but at the end of the day, I employ them
Speaker 2: to look after you and by virtue, look after me.
Speaker 2: Like our HR makes sure that I know what policies
Speaker 2: and procedures exist. And surprisingly you can have internal HR,
Speaker 2: which we don't have, or external HR, which is like
Speaker 2: a consulting service. Yeah, that kind of come in a
Speaker 2: bit like a bookkeeper and just make sure that everything's
Speaker 2: all good. Yeah, Like, how would I know that employment
Speaker 2: law has changed if I've had my head in the
Speaker 2: podcast realm for the last month. They email me and
Speaker 2: they're like, hey, they just so you know, update XYZX
Speaker 2: with your bookkeeper to make sure that you're staying within
Speaker 2: the breadth of what you need to.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because as an employer, you have that responsibility, don't you.
Speaker 4: Hundred proceeds to make sure that you're on and.
Speaker 2: Like having a clear document or having a clear location
Speaker 2: to keep HR policies is going to mean that you know,
Speaker 2: everyone knows their rights, they know their responsibilities, and they
Speaker 2: also know how to handle things if things aren't going well.
Speaker 2: Like that's important. Yeah, absolutely, What does that look like
Speaker 2: in action? So obviously starting with essentials, what's your onboarding process? Yes,
Speaker 2: ours is still rogue, I'm really sorry. What do you
Speaker 2: leave entitlement? So that should also be in your employment contracts?
Speaker 2: What do performance reviews look like? How are we going
Speaker 2: to do that? And also how are we handling conflict?
Speaker 2: You might and everyone does at the start of their
Speaker 2: business go it's sunshine and roses. That's never going to
Speaker 2: be conflict in my business. May well be conflict in
Speaker 2: your business. May your delunu come true? True, There's always
Speaker 2: going to be something, And it doesn't mean that the
Speaker 2: conflict lasts. It just means you need to have a
Speaker 2: process for talking it through and nipping it in the
Speaker 2: butt so that it doesn't become a bigger thing. But
Speaker 2: if there's no process, you're gone spiral and you don't
Speaker 2: know how to deal with it. So from my perspective,
Speaker 2: it's keep it simple. All processes should be as simple
Speaker 2: as possible. They should be super easy to understand, also
Speaker 2: accessible to everybody. It's not some policy that you've said
Speaker 2: that no one else is able to communicate. No one
Speaker 2: should have to, you know, decode some legal, bloody jargon
Speaker 2: just to understand how to apply for annual leve or
Speaker 2: to know what to expect during a performance review. And
Speaker 2: then this is my psychotic side stepping in document everything.
Speaker 2: Maybe this comes from my financial advice world probably, but
Speaker 2: like even when I've spoken to you about things, jess,
Speaker 2: what do I say? Send yourself an email? Yeap, doesn't
Speaker 2: even have to be this like super formal process. But
Speaker 2: if you email something to yourself, you are time stamping it.
Speaker 2: You can't edit that, you can't edit the time, and
Speaker 2: email ends up in your inbox. And if ever anything
Speaker 2: should happen, you can go back and find all of
Speaker 2: those things and say, well, actually I do remember what
Speaker 2: happened because I sent myself an email when it was
Speaker 2: still fresh in my mind of everything that happened. Here
Speaker 2: is my file note. So you could file note it properly.
Speaker 2: You could like do it on a word document. You
Speaker 2: could have like an internal CRM that you might manage
Speaker 2: those things through, but at the very least it to
Speaker 2: yourself is really helpful. So obviously having a printed handbook fantastic.
Speaker 2: But if something's happening and you're having conversations with people,
Speaker 2: document them. I prefer that to be a waste of
Speaker 2: time because, like you know, I've never had to do
Speaker 2: this with you, thank god. But like if I had
Speaker 2: to have a serious conversation with you, Jess, I would
Speaker 2: send myself an email so that then I could go
Speaker 2: back and be like, well, what did I talk to
Speaker 2: Jess about the first time? You know, what did she
Speaker 2: say about this? So if there's a second follow up,
Speaker 2: I can be like, look, Jess, I documented it the
Speaker 2: first time, and this is what we said, this with
Speaker 2: the outcomes, this is what we've meant, this is what
Speaker 2: we haven't met. And I think that that's really important
Speaker 2: because time makes things cloudy. So if time passes and
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, yes, I had to chat to you
Speaker 2: about this before, and you go, yeah, what was I
Speaker 2: meant to do again, and you go, oh, I don't remember. Yeah, unacceptable. Also,
Speaker 2: there's no way you wouldn't have documented it your Jess.
Speaker 2: You would have come to the table. It's not the point.
Speaker 2: I'm just using it as an exactly, But I think
Speaker 2: reviewing and updating regularly because your team is going to grow,
Speaker 2: laws are going to change, Your policies might need tweaking
Speaker 2: to stay relevant. And I think summary of all of
Speaker 2: that is just have clear, documented HR policies and if
Speaker 2: you have them and don't use them, that's great, amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I'd prefer you to have them and not need them,
Speaker 2: then need them and not have them.
Speaker 4: Oh one hundred percent. How would you approach building the
Speaker 4: team when you're making those first hiring decisions. Obviously you
Speaker 4: create first choice in.
Speaker 2: Me, Yeah, she's on the money team started off on
Speaker 2: the best push. It wouldn't have done better. No, So
Speaker 2: I have a theory and it's called higher slow, firefast.
Speaker 2: Oh it sounds real savage, but we have quite a
Speaker 2: recruitment process. If you're listening to this and you've ever
Speaker 2: been through it, I apologize, but I also don't because
Speaker 2: it means that you can find the right role and
Speaker 2: I can find the right fit. So it's about making
Speaker 2: sure that there are multiple points of contact. I don't
Speaker 2: just like have a coffee catch up with someone and
Speaker 2: be like, hey, yes, do you want a job like
Speaker 2: poor Jess, Like you were put through even as my
Speaker 2: first hire, like online interview, interview, in person Q and
Speaker 2: a what would this look like? How would this work?
Speaker 2: I think even because I was into content for the
Speaker 2: Business Bible at that point, I made you go into
Speaker 2: a sound booth and like we have that somewhere. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I made you record yourself and what you were feeling.
Speaker 2: Like that's probably not acceptable against not against just a
Speaker 2: bit weird, But at the end of the day, bringing
Speaker 2: somebody into your team is the biggest commitment ever, Like
Speaker 2: from my perspective, it's so scary as well, because like
Speaker 2: I don't know, I pay your income, Like that is
Speaker 2: a massive commitment and I don't want you to rush
Speaker 2: that process. And it's not just about your resume. It's
Speaker 2: also about how they bring themselves to the table. What
Speaker 2: they're like, tenacity is like what their work values, their values,
Speaker 2: their cultural fit, their goals. Like So I think using
Speaker 2: multiple rounds of interviews is really smart and if possible,
Speaker 2: involve your team. So now that we do have a
Speaker 2: bigger team, whenever I'm hiring someone new, the first port
Speaker 2: of call will be a phone interview with somebody that's
Speaker 2: not me. Second port of call is an interview with me.
Speaker 2: And if all of that is going swimmingly, you get
Speaker 2: invited to an interview with some of the team members
Speaker 2: and I'm not there. And that's purposeful because then you
Speaker 2: can be like, Jess, what's that actually like? Working for
Speaker 2: THEE what's your work life balance?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: You know, what does your weekends look like? You know,
Speaker 2: what does you know work task allocation look like? How
Speaker 2: does team communication go? What's worked from home? Actually you
Speaker 2: don't ask all those questions, but then the team can
Speaker 2: also work out if you're somebody that they would interact
Speaker 2: with consistently on a daily basis. You get a vibe,
Speaker 2: you get a feel, And I think that to just
Speaker 2: rely on a resume is silly. It's very outdated, isn't it?
Speaker 2: One hundred percent our data? And like Jess, lots of
Speaker 2: people applied for roles that you applied for and you
Speaker 2: got it and you didn't even have a degree because
Speaker 2: you were the right fit. And yeah, have I regretted
Speaker 2: that maybe a little, but no. But have I regretted
Speaker 2: that no? Because you've been here for years now and
Speaker 2: have been an integral part of the team. I don't
Speaker 2: regret that for a second, So I think it's so
Speaker 2: important to do that. But on the flip side, fire fast,
Speaker 2: I can tell you right now, if you talk to
Speaker 2: any manager who's hired someone you and they've known if
Speaker 2: it was a bad fit, they know within the first week,
Speaker 2: it does not mean that they do anything about that though,
Speaker 2: Like you need to nip that in the button, pull
Speaker 2: that person aside. Hey Barry, I'm really sorry, this just
Speaker 2: isn't working out for you or me. It gives them
Speaker 2: the opportunity to go find something that works for them,
Speaker 2: and you the opportunity to find the right team member.
Speaker 2: Like it can lower team morale having the wrong person
Speaker 2: on the team, like it can impact your productivity. It
Speaker 2: can even hurt that person in the role because they
Speaker 2: might thrive somewhere else. You're impacting their confidence, like yeah,
Speaker 2: if they're not good at that job, let them go.
Speaker 4: Like yeah, I feel some people might hold on because
Speaker 4: they feel almost like a failure, Like if they've made gone,
Speaker 4: oh I think I made the right decision, and then
Speaker 4: they go, oh, may it's not feeling right. Maybe they
Speaker 4: could go, oh, yeah, I was so confident or I
Speaker 4: saw xyz. Yeah, but do you think it's fair to
Speaker 4: say that until you have someone doing the job in
Speaker 4: your team in routine, Like people can put their best
Speaker 4: foot forward in an interview and it just not translate
Speaker 4: in the.
Speaker 2: Way that And I think that you might look at
Speaker 2: me and go, Victoria, that's ruthless, that's awful, Like give
Speaker 2: them a chance if you can't show me your best
Speaker 2: in the first few weeks of your employment, like what
Speaker 2: is going on? Like you not meant to put your
Speaker 2: best foot forward during that period of time. And it
Speaker 2: probably does sound ruthless, But at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: for me, it's about clarity, it's about respect, it's about
Speaker 2: being upfront and professional with that person. And I find
Speaker 2: that kinder than dragging it out and firing them in
Speaker 2: six months. Like I have interviewed and hired somebody before
Speaker 2: who had just got a new role, and I said,
Speaker 2: why are you here? Didn't you just say that you
Speaker 2: have a new role And they said, yeah, absolutely, I've
Speaker 2: been there for two weeks and it's absolutely not the
Speaker 2: right fit.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I had so much respect for that person because I
Speaker 2: was like, really, tell me about that, what does that mean?
Speaker 2: And ended up hiring them they've stayed. It's fantastic. But
Speaker 2: I had so much respect because they knew to pull
Speaker 2: the trigger early and they were like, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to waste the business's time. I feel like my time's
Speaker 2: being wasted. You know. The expectations they sat in the
Speaker 2: interview were not what it ended up being. Like, I
Speaker 2: have a lot more respect for that, and I've also
Speaker 2: got a lot more respect for other people that I'm
Speaker 2: not going to drag it out. Yeah, it's not fair.
Speaker 2: That feels reasonable to me. I feel like it does.
Speaker 2: But you know, on the flip side, if you just
Speaker 2: got your new job and then you find a week
Speaker 2: later you're not the right fit, doesn't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I guess hr or, like you know, making
Speaker 4: hiring choices more broadly, you have to take the emotion
Speaker 4: out of it a little bit. It's one hundred and
Speaker 4: before out right you have to make the decision that's
Speaker 4: right for you, right for the team. Because as much
Speaker 4: as like in an I Do world, no one would
Speaker 4: ever hurt anybody's feelings and everyone would get along and
Speaker 4: everything would be perfect.
Speaker 2: See, I agree and I don't agree. So, like, taking
Speaker 2: the emotion out of it is important for clear decision
Speaker 2: making and I do that, but then I think it's
Speaker 2: important to inject your personality and your ethics and your
Speaker 2: morals back into it to be empathetic. Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: There is what fair work says you need to do. Right, So, like,
Speaker 2: let's say we are terminating somebody, Like, there is what
Speaker 2: fair work says. I need to make sure that I
Speaker 2: give someone twenty four hours notice before I terminate their role.
Speaker 2: I need to offer them a support person all of
Speaker 2: that other stuff. But is that the kindest way to
Speaker 2: do it. Yeah, probably not. We'll do that as a
Speaker 2: bare minimum, but there are additional things that I can
Speaker 2: layer on top of that, like making sure that I
Speaker 2: have a very clear process of performance management. So if
Speaker 2: somebody isn't performing well, I'm not just going to go Okay, cool,
Speaker 2: we're done and I've given them warnings, but I haven't.
Speaker 2: I'm going to make sure that my language is clear,
Speaker 2: my warnings are clear. I'm going to make sure that
Speaker 2: when it comes to that termination process, I'm clear in
Speaker 2: giving feedback because if I'm not giving that person feedback,
Speaker 2: I'm not helping them grow in the next role, and
Speaker 2: I'm setting them up for failure. And a lot of
Speaker 2: the time. It's not a personal decision. It's a technical
Speaker 2: competency issue and going cool. We've tried X, Y, and
Speaker 2: Z and it's just not working. But what can I
Speaker 2: do to be the kindest in this situation because it
Speaker 2: feels like trash but quiet. No one wants that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I think it's about making sure that you don't
Speaker 2: just take all the emotion out of it, because I
Speaker 2: think that empathetic leadership needs some level of emotion still
Speaker 2: to still have your wits about you. I'm not the devil. Yeah,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Your boss? Yeah, like
Speaker 2: I am your boss, but also I'm not a dick.
Speaker 2: Or maybe I am, but like I try really hard
Speaker 2: not to be sometimes. But let's go to a really
Speaker 2: quick break. I feel like we're just getting started. After
Speaker 2: the break, I'm going to dive into it. I guess
Speaker 2: the secret source for keeping your workplace running smoothly everything
Speaker 2: from communication, feedback, and building a culture that people actually
Speaker 2: want to stick around for. So stay tuned. Alright, everyone,
Speaker 2: we're back VD.
Speaker 4: We've talked about policies and hiring, but once you've got
Speaker 4: the right people in place, what's the next step for
Speaker 4: making sure that everything does run smoothly. Culture culture culture
Speaker 4: without ah at the end.
Speaker 2: Culture got to make sure you have good culture. Culture
Speaker 2: is so important. But before you get culture, I feel
Speaker 2: like everybody throws this term of like, oh, culture is
Speaker 2: so important at work? Is culture that important? If you
Speaker 2: have shitty communication? Is shitty communication a symptom of that
Speaker 2: culture exactly? So the first thing I want to talk
Speaker 2: about is communication. Great. It's funny because on our Friday
Speaker 2: Drinks episode, yes, we're always like, oh, we've got a dilemma,
Speaker 2: and what said ninety nine point nine nine percent of
Speaker 2: the time, Oh, if you just communication, Communication is that
Speaker 2: glue that sticks cell workplace together, Like it is something
Speaker 2: that you need to have open and flowing. But then
Speaker 2: also realize, if a change is being made often don't
Speaker 2: take it personally. So I think it's sometimes people will go,
Speaker 2: oh my god, my boss decided to implement like a
Speaker 2: rule where we only get forty five minutes of our
Speaker 2: lunch break. Why are we taking this so personally? Like
Speaker 2: it's just a rule. Someone's broken it great, norries like
Speaker 2: pick it up, move forward, like we've just changed the
Speaker 2: way that we're working. But without good communication, where places
Speaker 2: start full part things start to get tricky and hard,
Speaker 2: and consistent and clear communication is going to keep you
Speaker 2: on track. It's going to mean that you stay aligned,
Speaker 2: but it's also going to reduce friction, and it's going
Speaker 2: to create an environment where everyone feels heard and informed.
Speaker 2: And on top of things, you've got four c's Jessica
Speaker 2: and I've talked about them before on the podcast. You've
Speaker 2: got clarity, consistency, context, and collaboration, and to have effective communication,
Speaker 2: you need to meet all four of these things. And
Speaker 2: it sounds lame, but having a framework makes life so
Speaker 2: much easier as a leader because so often I'll be like,
Speaker 2: but I told her in my head and then realize
Speaker 2: that maybe I didn't meet the four season That probably
Speaker 2: was an effective communication. I was just busy and trying
Speaker 2: to get rid of it. So clarity is obviously being
Speaker 2: really specific, being really concise, like not saying things like oh, yes,
Speaker 2: we need to do better, great, saying something like okay,
Speaker 2: to do better, we need to deliver that draft by
Speaker 2: next Friday at four pm. Yeah, like being really clear.
Speaker 2: The next is consistency, So staying regular with your updates,
Speaker 2: making sure that things are shared, meetings via email or
Speaker 2: via slack repetition means that everybody is aligned. Context is important.
Speaker 2: If you tell me to do something and I don't
Speaker 2: know why or when or where a how like how
Speaker 2: am I going to do that? Like? Oh, Jess, can
Speaker 2: you fix that project? What? Projects? And context is key
Speaker 2: even in just like the urgency like one hundred percent,
Speaker 2: like oh, the client doesn't like it? Can you change it?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: What? Like we need some context. So for example, instead
Speaker 2: of just asking, oh, can you make some changes because
Speaker 2: the client doesn't like it, saying the client asked for
Speaker 2: revisions to better align with their branding, the color a
Speaker 2: bit off? Could you please update it? They also would
Speaker 2: prefer to feature A instead of B. Yeah, Oka, no
Speaker 2: worries like Also, if you're providing context like oh, the
Speaker 2: client just didn't like it, that feels personal. Yeah, like ill, David,
Speaker 2: we are not making things personal. We're taking the personal
Speaker 2: out of it. Like clients can be frustrating. If any
Speaker 2: of my clients are listening, turn this off right now.
Speaker 2: Delight your old delights. But it can be very frustrating
Speaker 2: sometimes when a client gives you feedback not effectively communicated,
Speaker 2: not effectively communicated, and you can't manage that. Yeah, So
Speaker 2: manage your team. So I know that you have had
Speaker 2: this historically, just not at the moment, thank god, where
Speaker 2: a client has just said, oh, I don't like it,
Speaker 2: I want to make changes, and I've had to then
Speaker 2: go back to you just and be like, oh, the
Speaker 2: client doesn't like it. I need to then communicate with you. Look,
Speaker 2: the client has said they don't like it, they haven't
Speaker 2: given me a lot of context. Unfortunately, this is the feedback.
Speaker 2: Have a look at the emails. These are the communications
Speaker 2: I've had with them before, and like you and I
Speaker 2: have had to sit down and decipher maybe what they
Speaker 2: meant because we haven't been able to do that. But
Speaker 2: if I said, oh, they just didn't like it, Jess
Speaker 2: and moved on, you think that I'm being a little
Speaker 2: bit flippant, Whereas the situation is a bit deeper than that.
Speaker 2: So when you have context, great share it. But if
Speaker 2: you don't have context, also share that you have no
Speaker 2: context of us know, yeah, and provide as much information
Speaker 2: on the fact that you're in the dark as well.
Speaker 2: Is really important. And I think so many times issues
Speaker 2: arise because I'll be like, well, Jess, you didn't tell me,
Speaker 2: and then you go, oh, well, I wasn't told either,
Speaker 2: and I go, well, why didn't you tell me that
Speaker 2: you weren't told? It just becomes a whole thing and
Speaker 2: it doesn't need to be. And then the last one
Speaker 2: is collaboration. So we're creating a space for two way dialogue,
Speaker 2: which I have sadly done in my business, where you
Speaker 2: give me feedback as much as I'm giving you feedback,
Speaker 2: and it's actually a really good thing. So I'm asking you, guys, well,
Speaker 2: what's your perspective on this decision I'm making, and vice versa.
Speaker 2: So sometimes I'm humbled and I'm like, I've got this
Speaker 2: really great idea. It's called twenty twenty thrive. Right to
Speaker 2: name our whole thing twenty twenty thrive, you know what?
Speaker 2: My team came back and said, looks great, But Victoria,
Speaker 2: in text, it looks like you've said two zero tooth thrive.
Speaker 2: What's too zero tooth thrive? Yeah, sounds good when I
Speaker 2: speak it. So twenty twenty thrive slay when you put
Speaker 2: it on a heading looks terrible and I needed to
Speaker 2: be humbled. So we're not using that as aggressively. We'll
Speaker 2: use it on the podcast, but it can't be a
Speaker 2: heading for something because it just doesn't translate. Yeah, can
Speaker 2: you imagine if my team were just agreeable, life would
Speaker 2: be easy but hard great idea, Victoria, that's going to
Speaker 2: really float everybody's vote like it would have been awful, Right,
Speaker 2: So I think collaboration making sure that people feel safe
Speaker 2: to challenge, but also they feel confident to share their opinions,
Speaker 2: and that can be harder done. Then said, yeah, you
Speaker 2: really have to cultivate a safe spell. Yes, because I
Speaker 2: know in my business, thankfully, you guys can be like Victoria,
Speaker 2: that is a terrible idea, and I'll be like fair.
Speaker 2: Whereas I'm sure that there are people listening to this.
Speaker 2: If they told their boss that something was a terrible idea,
Speaker 2: they'd be like, get out of my office, or even worse,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So you've got to read
Speaker 2: the room.
Speaker 4: So what I'm feeling is great communication isn't just about talking.
Speaker 4: It's about ensuring that everybody understands, they feel heard, they
Speaker 4: know next steps. I feel like, when in doubt, over
Speaker 4: communicate rather than assuming everyone's on the same page, because
Speaker 4: what do they say when you assume you make an
Speaker 4: ass out of you and me?
Speaker 2: You've said that one time before I believe first, what.
Speaker 4: About when things aren't going as planned though, or if
Speaker 4: you need to maybe recalibrate the way that you're doing
Speaker 4: It's almost like.
Speaker 2: Communication is key here. Yes, really, it's actually crazy. But
Speaker 2: I'm also going to say feedback, communicate, feedback. The number
Speaker 2: four rule is make sure that you were using a
Speaker 2: framework for effective communication and effective feedback. It matters for
Speaker 2: so many different reasons. Right. You might think by just
Speaker 2: delivering some feedback and walking off, that's enough, and it's
Speaker 2: just really not.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: Feedback is one of the most powerful tools for people
Speaker 2: for personal and professional growth. And I think sometimes even
Speaker 2: framing it and being like, hey, like and thank god
Speaker 2: I haven't had to do this, I feel like I've
Speaker 2: given you feedback that you haven't liked before, but it's worked. Well. Hey, Jess,
Speaker 2: I'm going to give you some feedback. And I'm aware
Speaker 2: that this might not be the nicest thing to hear,
Speaker 2: but I hope you know that when I'm telling you this,
Speaker 2: it's coming from a place of love and wanting you
Speaker 2: to be better and do better. And I know you
Speaker 2: can as opposed to me being critical, right, and then
Speaker 2: you can go, oh, Okay, you've kind of braced yourself
Speaker 2: for the feedback, but also you know that I'm aware
Speaker 2: that that could be a dick thing to share. I
Speaker 2: don't want you to immediately Gov said that she hated
Speaker 2: my thing, and that can all in the delivery. When
Speaker 2: feedback is done correctly, it improves performance. It improves like
Speaker 2: the strength of your team, team dynamics. It builds trust,
Speaker 2: like I think that good feed feedback coming from somebody
Speaker 2: who wants you to do well is a gift, whereas
Speaker 2: some people think that just being rude or being like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't like it, Like, yeah, that's not feedback, that's opinion.
Speaker 2: And you need to decipher the difference between personal opinion
Speaker 2: and feedback as well. I think that's something that a
Speaker 2: lot of people don't do well. They will deliver it
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, I think that's terrible, and then
Speaker 2: it's like, well, actually doesn't meet the brief like you
Speaker 2: might not like this. You know, it happens a lot
Speaker 2: in marketing, like people will say that they don't like something,
Speaker 2: but it's actually personal opinion, and then you realize there's
Speaker 2: a lot of research behind why it's presented that way.
Speaker 2: Have a think about how you're delivering it and where
Speaker 2: this feedback is coming from. On the flip side, if
Speaker 2: you're giving bad feedback, poor feedback, or even no feedback
Speaker 2: at all, it leaves people a bit confused. They're like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how
Speaker 2: to do this. They're unmotivated, they might be a little
Speaker 2: bit resentful, and I think that is a really awful
Speaker 2: position to be in. It doesn't help for the culture. NICEAKA,
Speaker 2: and we're all about the culture one hundred percent. So
Speaker 2: this is where you want to use a framework again,
Speaker 2: and my favorite framework is the situation impact action framework.
Speaker 2: So if you're giving feedback, let's do a little roleplay example.
Speaker 2: So you're going to describe what happened, so the situation
Speaker 2: focusing only on the facts. So example, in the last meeting,
Speaker 2: you spoke over Sarah while she was sharing her thoughts.
Speaker 2: Sarah doesn't exist while she was sharing her ideas. And
Speaker 2: then you're going to explain the impact. So we're not
Speaker 2: going to talk about how on I just don't think
Speaker 2: that's very enough. No no, no, no, no, cut that out.
Speaker 2: We don't care about that. You're then going to explain
Speaker 2: why it matters and how it affected the team. Or
Speaker 2: the project, so it really interrupted her flow and made
Speaker 2: it harder for her to fully explain her point, and
Speaker 2: then she just seemed a bit hesitant to speak up again. Valid. Valid.
Speaker 2: Then what's the action, So we're not just going to
Speaker 2: be like you spoke over somebody made her feel bad
Speaker 2: and drop the mic and walk out. Yeah, what behavior
Speaker 2: do we want modeled in the future. Look, let's just
Speaker 2: make sure that everyone gets to finish their thoughts before
Speaker 2: we jump in. I know you're really excited about that
Speaker 2: and really enthusiastic, So maybe just take a quick pause
Speaker 2: to check if anyone is like still speaking, make sure
Speaker 2: they're done before you're jumping in. Great, really simple. When
Speaker 2: you're really simple, really easy, it's not about personal opinion,
Speaker 2: which I think is where feedback gets really cloudy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it sets you up for success, and they're probably going
Speaker 2: to go, yeah, you're right, that will help me. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a simple thing.
Speaker 4: They know exactly what they need to do, no harm,
Speaker 4: no file, They can fix it for an extent.
Speaker 2: And it's funny because that example would literally never happen
Speaker 2: with you, Jessica. It would happen with me. I speak
Speaker 2: over everybody I do, and you are like the thoughtful
Speaker 2: one that goes, oh I have a point and they
Speaker 2: raise my hand. Yeah, like you put your hand up
Speaker 2: or something. So like that's a terrible example. If you
Speaker 2: were imagining Jessica in it, just imagine that that was
Speaker 2: being delivered to me, because I would feel much better
Speaker 2: if someone was like, oh, you did this thing and
Speaker 2: it impacted somebody else in the future, you need to
Speaker 2: do this. I'll be like, Okay, cool, no worries. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Whereas if somebody was giving me feedback and they're like,
Speaker 2: stop talking over jess I'd be like, oh, sorry, and
Speaker 2: you feel bad about yourself and that doesn't help anything.
Speaker 2: It doesn't help anyone or anything, because then I don't
Speaker 2: even realize when I did that. Was it at lunch
Speaker 2: or was it at dinner? Like do I do it
Speaker 2: all the time, Like, yeah, we're nipping it in the butt,
Speaker 2: Can I say yeah.
Speaker 4: I also think it's really important when using this framework
Speaker 4: to think about who you're delivering to in the way
Speaker 4: that they lack to receive feedback. And I think a
Speaker 4: particularly relevant example is exactly what you were just saying
Speaker 4: with how you interrupt. For you, it's because of you
Speaker 4: and eurodiversity and I think I'm.
Speaker 2: Glad I have an excuse.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But I think it's also like really important when
Speaker 4: we're talking about like, obviously this is a great broad framework,
Speaker 4: but people are so unique and the way that I
Speaker 4: receive feedback, the way you receive feedback, I think getting
Speaker 4: to know your team and I feel like we're going
Speaker 4: to maybe talk about this a little bit in about
Speaker 4: five seconds. Maybe I'm really ahead, am I rup? But
Speaker 4: I think like that's a really important thing and acknowledging
Speaker 4: that certain behaviors may be results of your adversity or
Speaker 4: past experience or things like that as well.
Speaker 2: And I know that talking over people can be perceived
Speaker 2: as being incredibly rude, right, but I think that we're
Speaker 2: at a point in our team. I'm not saying it's acceptable.
Speaker 2: I do try my best, please, I'm not saying that
Speaker 2: that's okay, But I think that when I do that
Speaker 2: accidentally now still people aren't like Victoria think she's more important,
Speaker 2: Like I think that because we fully comprehend each other
Speaker 2: and I've shared that, people are like, oh, she's just
Speaker 2: so excited about the next point. Yeah, And sometimes the
Speaker 2: teams like they sit down, like go back two steps,
Speaker 2: please go back two steps, because we're actually not talking
Speaker 2: about that yet, we're still not done here. And I
Speaker 2: think that that can be a really good way of
Speaker 2: managing it as well. Like a lot of people might
Speaker 2: take personal offense, be like, oh my god, I can't
Speaker 2: believe Victorious spoke over me again in that meeting. It's
Speaker 2: not because I don't respect you. I promised you that.
Speaker 2: And I think that having that context is really really important.
Speaker 4: I completely agree, and I think it filters really nicely
Speaker 4: into creating that great team culture. How do you make
Speaker 4: sure that you know, whatever business company culture you're building
Speaker 4: is something that people actually want to be a part of.
Speaker 2: You've actually just got to post on social media all
Speaker 2: the time. Oh yeah, I've got a post like really
Speaker 2: attractive pictures of yourself and your team, like and your
Speaker 2: team loving you. That's how to do good culture. End
Speaker 2: the episode there. In fact, do you know what's funny
Speaker 2: about that is I have met so many people who
Speaker 2: have been like, oh, actually, our internal team culture is
Speaker 2: nothing like you see online. I think that's a very
Speaker 2: common thing. I think it's a very common thing for
Speaker 2: businesses to be posting online about this and thinking that
Speaker 2: culture comes from what the content they share, and I
Speaker 2: think it's important to point out because I'm so aware
Speaker 2: of that, Like, I think you and I can agree,
Speaker 2: I don't even have to agree to this, but like
Speaker 2: our team will probably be like, yeah, what you see
Speaker 2: online is exactly how we are in person, because it's
Speaker 2: just what naturally happens. But I think building a culture
Speaker 2: starts from internal, and it starts from the top. So like,
Speaker 2: if I'm not role modeling the behaviors that I expect,
Speaker 2: how do I expect other people doing them? And if
Speaker 2: we're not doing them internally, how are we expecting people
Speaker 2: to see them on the outside. How are we expecting
Speaker 2: to talk about how great we are if we're not
Speaker 2: actually great internally. I can't think of anything more mortifying
Speaker 2: than being like, yeah, I really respect my team, and
Speaker 2: then my team in the background rolling their eyes like
Speaker 2: iwa that gives me the ick so hard. So if
Speaker 2: we think about the best workplace culture we can, we're
Speaker 2: going to imagine people are super engaged and supported and
Speaker 2: they're genuinely happy to show up, and that kind of
Speaker 2: energy doesn't just happen, And I guess the opposite is
Speaker 2: a workplace where tension and competition end up taking over
Speaker 2: and nobody feels valued, and then everyone just waits for
Speaker 2: the countdown five o'clock when they can run out of
Speaker 2: their laptop, shut bag on back. And bad culture drains teams,
Speaker 2: and it fuels turnover, and it kills productivity, and I
Speaker 2: mean a thriving colture. It doesn't just boost morale. It
Speaker 2: actually turns your workplace into a place that people want
Speaker 2: to stay and grow and do their best. And I'm
Speaker 2: very lucky that I used to work as a culture
Speaker 2: and engagement consultant and so I work on a say,
Speaker 2: stay and thrive model. So that's my concept that I
Speaker 2: work on. And if you can meet all three of
Speaker 2: these things, I think you're well on the way to
Speaker 2: having a good team culture internally and externally. And whether
Speaker 2: you're an employer this applies obviously, But if you're an employee,
Speaker 2: having a think about this. So, I want people to
Speaker 2: be saying good things about my business when I'm not around.
Speaker 2: You don't need to say it in front of me.
Speaker 2: That doesn't matter. But like imagine, Jess, You're at a
Speaker 2: barbecue on the weekend and someone says, jes where do
Speaker 2: you work? And you say, I work a cheese on
Speaker 2: the money. Are you going to go, oh, I work
Speaker 2: at cheese on the money and they go how is it?
Speaker 2: And then you go whatever, let's not talk about work,
Speaker 2: or you go, oh my gosh, I love my job.
Speaker 2: I do this, I do that right, So I want
Speaker 2: people saying good things. The second is stay, So that's
Speaker 2: about tenure and having low turnover. Are people incentivized and
Speaker 2: want to stay with the company, Like, are they in
Speaker 2: a position where they want to stay for the longevity?
Speaker 2: Do they see a career there, do they see that
Speaker 2: they are respected and you know, enjoying it, or are
Speaker 2: they looking for a new job. Yeah, So I want
Speaker 2: to meet those two. And then the third one is
Speaker 2: the strive component. And I feel like this strive component,
Speaker 2: it is something that you can't pay people for. You
Speaker 2: can pay people all the money in the world, but
Speaker 2: this is about cultural fit and hiring the right people
Speaker 2: because if you have hired the right people, they will
Speaker 2: strive for your business. They will go above and beyond.
Speaker 2: They won't have to be asked to go above and beyond,
Speaker 2: because if you have a good culture, you're not asking
Speaker 2: people to stay late. But you'll notice things happening in
Speaker 2: the background, like they're saying good things about your business.
Speaker 2: They are you know, promoting it. They're you know, staying
Speaker 2: in their role and they're going above and beyond because
Speaker 2: they feel respected and they feel like, you know, they're
Speaker 2: really contributing to the greater good. They understand that there's
Speaker 2: effective and clear leadership. They understand that there is you know,
Speaker 2: career opportunities for them on the table or you know what.
Speaker 2: Not everyone's looking for career opportunities. Some people just want
Speaker 2: a steady job and that's cool too, But like they
Speaker 2: understand that their position is respected. And I think that
Speaker 2: that's what culture looks like in action. So you know,
Speaker 2: three things are going to contribute to having highly engaged employees.
Speaker 2: And to go back to meeting a culture and engagement consultant,
Speaker 2: we know that businesses that have engaged employees have fifty
Speaker 2: percent higher shareholder return than businesses that have disengaged employees.
Speaker 2: Are crazy, So just by focusing on culture, you are
Speaker 2: impacting the bottom line of your business. Yeah, And like
Speaker 2: I could go into it for days. We don't have time,
Speaker 2: but I could go into it for days about how
Speaker 2: your team are what makes your business successful. And that's
Speaker 2: why often when I'm interviewed or I'm talking to people
Speaker 2: and they're like, you've done so well, and I'm like, gues,
Speaker 2: it's not me, it's my team. I'm not even flipping
Speaker 2: it off me. I'm like, I wouldn't be where I
Speaker 2: would be today without a solid team. But my solid
Speaker 2: team comes from being respected and having that back and
Speaker 2: forth relationship. And I mean, to me, good culture is
Speaker 2: the difference between a workplace people endua and a workplace
Speaker 2: people thrive in. And so I think when you create
Speaker 2: a culture that alignes with your team's values and makes
Speaker 2: them feel connected, you're not just building a team, You're
Speaker 2: kind of building loyalty and creativity and success. They can
Speaker 2: still leave though, because we had a team and believe
Speaker 2: more than a year ago now. And I think it's
Speaker 2: so important to understand where you sit. So like, obviously
Speaker 2: I've done say stay and strive and stays great, But like,
Speaker 2: what if you outgrow the role, that doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: you become disengaged with a culture. If somebody in my
Speaker 2: business has outgrown a role. For example, Gabby in our business,
Speaker 2: I could talk about her because she loved this. She
Speaker 2: worked in marketing in our business. She started as EA
Speaker 2: worked her way up, did market and then God offered
Speaker 2: an epic marketing role at the AFL. I can't compete
Speaker 2: with that. Yeah, so what am I going to do?
Speaker 2: Be mad about that or be grateful that I got
Speaker 2: to be along the journey of that. Yes, I loved
Speaker 2: the fact that we got to be a part of
Speaker 2: her journey. I was sad that she was leaving, but
Speaker 2: now I'm so proud that she's on the money helped
Speaker 2: her get there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, slay Absolutely. I feel like there's five rules set
Speaker 4: a really good foundation for HR and for managing people
Speaker 4: in general, not even just from like a business owner perspective,
Speaker 4: but also just anyone in the workplace. You know, these
Speaker 4: are the things that you want to be looking for.
Speaker 4: This should be the standard that we're holding our employers to.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And if you have listened to this and you're
Speaker 2: like I'm not say, I'm not stay, I'm not strived,
Speaker 2: look for a new job. I'm sorry to the employers listening,
Speaker 2: but like, if you're not doing those three things, you're
Speaker 2: not engaged, and it's good for them that you're going
Speaker 2: to move on, but also it's great for you because
Speaker 2: you're going to find somewhere that you actually feel valued totally, absolutely,
Speaker 2: And I think if you're running your own business or
Speaker 2: managing a team, or you just to be a better
Speaker 2: cowork or friend at work, these rules are universal. It's
Speaker 2: all about setting clear expectations and fostering open, honest communication
Speaker 2: and building a culture where people actually want to show
Speaker 2: up a big one. Oh, I think we've done for today.
Speaker 2: But before we wrap up, Jess in the new year,
Speaker 2: Business Bibles having a glow up. We love to see it,
Speaker 2: we do. We're giving Business Bible its own dedicated feed again.
Speaker 2: That is right. It is getting a revamp. There are
Speaker 2: some really fun things planned and I know you're going
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Speaker 2: you're already a loyal Business Bible fan, thank you, or
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Speaker 2: wait to share with you what we have been working
Speaker 2: on behind the scenes. Oh, it's so exciting. I'll be
Speaker 2: gitting subscribe asap. I love that you better because it's
Speaker 2: twenty twenty. Thrive next year, Jessica. We love it that
Speaker 2: in audio all the time. Have a good rest of
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