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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers, now.

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Speaker 2: In order to get a good read that the values

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Speaker 2: for learning itself, It's now just a tedious prerequisite forgetting

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Speaker 2: the high mark. Which is why the schools that care

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Speaker 2: not only about academic excellence, but care about kids wanting

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Speaker 2: to be lifelong learners and remaining curious never would reduce

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Speaker 2: anything the kids did to a letter or number.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and Dad.

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Speaker 3: This time last year we had some fantastic conversations with

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Speaker 3: a guy called Alfie Kohne. Alfie is the author of

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Speaker 3: a number of books, including Punished by Rewards, The Homework Myth,

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Speaker 3: Unconditional Parenting, The Schools Our Children Deserve, and I mean,

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Speaker 3: I could go on. He's written Beyond Discipline, No Contest,

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Speaker 3: What does it mean to be well dicated? Feel bad Education?

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Speaker 3: And so much more. And today we're going to talk

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Speaker 3: to Alfie about some of those educational concepts, specifically report cards,

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Speaker 3: because it's that time of year.

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Speaker 4: It's that time of the year and parents and children

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Speaker 4: are looking at report cards and a lot of students

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Speaker 4: and parents are invested in what those report cards say, Alfie,

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Speaker 4: you've got a really strong education background and you've researched

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Speaker 4: this for decades. What's your position on it and why?

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Speaker 2: Well? The research finds that if you take a large

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Speaker 2: number of students and give them all the same assignment

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Speaker 2: to do, and then you randomly assign them either to

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Speaker 2: a graded or non graded condition, there are three robust differences.

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Speaker 2: Students who are led to focus on their grades or marks. First,

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Speaker 2: become less interested in whatever the topic is they were

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Speaker 2: working on. For the best of my knowledge, every study

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Speaker 2: that has ever looked at intrinsic motivation to learn and

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Speaker 2: how it's affected by grades has found that grades have

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Speaker 2: an adverse impact. Second, students who are trying to focus

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Speaker 2: on their grades will pick the easiest possible task if

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Speaker 2: they're given a choice, not because they're lazy, you know,

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Speaker 2: or lack of growth mindset, but because they're rational. If

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Speaker 2: the point is to bring up your grades, then obviously

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Speaker 2: you're going to pick the shortest book or the most

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Speaker 2: familiar topic to do your project on because that maximizes

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Speaker 2: the chance of getting a good grade. So when schools

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Speaker 2: use grades and parents emphasize the importance, that's a way

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Speaker 2: to convince kids to avoid intellectual risk taking. And the

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Speaker 2: third effect, according to the research, is that the more

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Speaker 2: focused you are on grades as a student, the more

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Speaker 2: shallow your thinking tends to become. Now you're not interested

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Speaker 2: in asking questions like how do we know this is true?

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Speaker 2: Or doesn't that contradict what we were reading last week?

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Speaker 2: You're just going to ask do we have to know

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Speaker 2: this for the test?

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Speaker 3: Alfie, listening to those three reasons, I love the way

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Speaker 3: that you've gone straight into the research, and this is

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Speaker 3: consistent with so much of the work that I've been

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Speaker 3: doing for the last number of years as well. I'd

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Speaker 3: love to hear the way because you really do have

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Speaker 3: an extraordinary gift for the way that you explain and

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Speaker 3: reduce the research into concepts that people can just grab

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Speaker 3: hold off so quickly. The first point that you raised,

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Speaker 3: I just want to zero in on that for a moment.

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Speaker 3: You said that when we emphasize grades, when we ask

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Speaker 3: children to complete an assignment so that they can be

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Speaker 3: evaluated and assessed, that they actually become less interested in

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Speaker 3: the task. Now, any parent, any school teacher would just

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Speaker 3: shudder to think that the very thing that matters to

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Speaker 3: their children for their capacity for their learning. By virtual

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Speaker 3: it being assessed is going to reduce their interest in

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Speaker 3: doing it. But hang on, this is like, this is important,

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Speaker 3: you have to learn this. So how do you explain

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Speaker 3: this reduction in intrinsic motivation?

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Speaker 2: First, let's back up and make sure everyone understands the

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Speaker 2: important difference between intrinsic motivation, which means you do something

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Speaker 2: because you find it meaningful or it gives you pleasure,

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Speaker 2: and extrinsic motivation, which means you do something in order

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Speaker 2: to bring about a result outside of or extrinsic to

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Speaker 2: the task, like getting some reward. In this case it's

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Speaker 2: a grade, but in other cases we could be talking

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Speaker 2: about money or food, or praise, good job. Those are

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Speaker 2: all extrinsic inducements. So I don't give a crap how

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Speaker 2: motivated our kids are. What matters is how our kids

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Speaker 2: are motivated. That is, does it tend to be more

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Speaker 2: intrinsic or extrinsic Every time we give kids a gold star,

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Speaker 2: you know, or or a or a good job, or

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Speaker 2: a grade or any other kind of reward a doggie

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Speaker 2: biscuit for doing something, we have reduced their interest in

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Speaker 2: whatever they had to do to get that reward. So

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Speaker 2: for example, other research has found that children whose parents

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Speaker 2: praise them or otherwise reward them tend to be less

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Speaker 2: generous and caring than their peers, and the effect is

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Speaker 2: most pronounced if they were rewarded or praised for being generous,

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Speaker 2: because what we've taught them is helping somebody is just

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Speaker 2: a means to an end. In this case, if I

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Speaker 2: help them and I'm taught being good, that means that

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Speaker 2: I'll get congratulated or some kind of reward given to me,

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Speaker 2: which devalues helping. So exactly the same thing is true

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Speaker 2: in school, where if if you're learning in order to

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Speaker 2: get a good grade, that devalues for learning itself. It's

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Speaker 2: now just a tedious prerequisite forgetting the high mark, which

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Speaker 2: is why the schools that care not only about academic

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Speaker 2: excellence but care about kids wanting to be lifelong learners

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Speaker 2: and remaining curious never would reduce anything the kids did

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Speaker 2: to a letter or number.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting in Australia there has been a general movement

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Speaker 3: away from a heavy A lot of parents haven't caught

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Speaker 3: onto this yet, but in the schools they understand this.

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Speaker 3: There's been a really strong movement away from this extraordinary

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Speaker 3: emphasis on you've got to get the grade to get

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Speaker 3: into the course. There are now so many alternative pathways

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Speaker 3: to get into different degrees. And of course once you're in,

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Speaker 3: nobody actually asks you what your grade is. Once you've graduated,

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Speaker 3: no one says what grades did you get? It's just

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Speaker 3: a mean swindy. But we've got these wonderful alternative pathways.

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Speaker 3: Now after the break, we are going to talk to

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Speaker 3: Alfie about some of those solutions so that we can

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Speaker 3: create the right environment at home in spite of the

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Speaker 3: grade emphasis that happens. And we're also going to talk

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Speaker 3: about grades for efforts.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 5: Our Screens Creating Tension at Home, Tweens, teens and Screens

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Speaker 5: is a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.

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Speaker 5: Bye today at happyfamilies dot com, dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now And today we

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Speaker 4: have one of our favorite guests back with us, Alfie Cone,

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Speaker 4: and we're talking about report cards and grades do they

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Speaker 4: really matter?

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Speaker 3: So we had Alfie on the podcast a few times

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Speaker 3: last year talking about so many great things. Definitely worth

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Speaker 3: searching it up. In fact, we'll link to those podcasts

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Speaker 3: episodes because they were so good. Alfie is the author

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Speaker 3: of probably a dozen books, everything from Punished by Rewards

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Speaker 3: to Unconditional Parenting. He's written No Contest, Feel Bad Education,

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Speaker 3: The Myth of the spoil Child, The Homework Myth, and

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Speaker 3: a whole lot more. And we're talking grades today because

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Speaker 3: report card time has arrived and the emails are landing,

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Speaker 3: the report cards are arriving in the latter box. A

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Speaker 3: few years ago, one of our kids came home with

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Speaker 3: a report card in one of the schools that our

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Speaker 3: children have attended over the years, there was a report

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Speaker 3: card that included grades for efforts. So you didn't just

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Speaker 3: get a grade for how you actually performed. The teacher

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Speaker 3: gave you a grade for how hard you tried. And

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Speaker 3: at the time I was thinking, well, at least they're

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Speaker 3: acknowledging that not every kid's going to do super well

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Speaker 3: and get straight a's, but at least if they have

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Speaker 3: a go, they can get acknowledged that way. But as

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Speaker 3: it happened, our door who was trying her hardest, burst

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Speaker 3: into tears when she saw her report card. And then

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Speaker 3: sobbed into my shoulder, Dad, I even failed trying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly what's your.

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Speaker 3: Response when you hear a story like that?

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Speaker 2: Oh it's I mean, even without the particular proof of

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Speaker 2: the damaging effect anecdotal from your daughter. I mean, I've

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Speaker 2: been going around saying effort grades are a way you

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Speaker 2: can now fail even at trying. You get a high

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Speaker 2: you know, achievement grade and a low effort grade. You

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Speaker 2: know what does that tell you? Or the reverse a

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Speaker 2: high effort grade and a low achievement grade means you know, thanks,

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Speaker 2: thanks for making the effort even though you're too stupid

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Speaker 2: for it to do any good. I mean, there's no

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Speaker 2: way this turns out to be constructive effort grades. Look,

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Speaker 2: you're not going to fix something as inherently destructive as

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Speaker 2: grades by adding a different grade. You know at What

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Speaker 2: it does is its implicitly is it centers the problem

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Speaker 2: in the kid, so that the adults no longer have

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Speaker 2: to rethink the structure or the system, the curriculum, or

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Speaker 2: the pedagogy. They can say when a kid isn't making

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Speaker 2: an effort, well, that kid is failing at trying, so

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Speaker 2: we'll grade it with with effort. That way, you never

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Speaker 2: have to ask why are the kids not interested in this?

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Speaker 2: Could it have something to do with a task or

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Speaker 2: the way we're teaching, or the fact that kids have

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Speaker 2: no input, no decision making authority about what it is

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Speaker 2: they're doing. So kui bono is the Latin question. I

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Speaker 2: like to ask who benefits when you give kids effort grade?

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Speaker 2: And the question answers itself. It's the adults who no

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Speaker 2: longer have to reflect on their own practice, but just

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Speaker 2: try harder to evaluate and manipulate their children.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that hits hard, Alfie.

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Speaker 4: We've talked about the problems with grades and report cards.

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Speaker 4: I'm wondering if we can give some solutions. Report cards

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Speaker 4: are going to end up in people's inboxes or they

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Speaker 4: lettle boxes over the next few weeks. What approach would

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Speaker 4: you suggest parents take when that report cut arrives in

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Speaker 4: our home? Justin pretty much he doesn't even look at them.

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Speaker 4: I kind of feel like it's a little bit dismissive.

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Speaker 4: So I spend a bit of time with the kids

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Speaker 4: and we kind of read over it because they want

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Speaker 4: to share their achievements.

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Speaker 3: Well, well, I still talk to the kids about their

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Speaker 3: school experience, but I ask what they're finding, delight in,

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Speaker 3: what they're enjoying, what they're learning, what the processes are

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Speaker 3: to help them to to develop themselves. Rather than saying

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Speaker 3: what do you get on your report whereas you do

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Speaker 3: walk through the report card a little bit. But anyway

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Speaker 3: back to call this question now for you, how do

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Speaker 3: you think parents might navigate this time of year.

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Speaker 2: As invisible as possible, for as long as possible. If

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Speaker 2: you can get away with ignoring the report card completely, good,

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Speaker 2: do it. If that seems weird to the kid or

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Speaker 2: you can't bear it, yeah, then take the other approach

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Speaker 2: you've just suggested, which is, you know, talk about it briefly,

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Speaker 2: ask them questions, and move on. Never become more excited

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Speaker 2: about your kid with more approval and attention and love

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Speaker 2: and affection when the kid has gotten good grades, or

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Speaker 2: withdraw all of that, you know, and be all concerned

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Speaker 2: when they don't. When parents actually reward kids for good

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Speaker 2: report cards or punish them for bad report cards, they're

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Speaker 2: squaring the damage that you know, that's a reward for

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Speaker 2: a reward.

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Speaker 4: So Alphie, in light of the fact that we live

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Speaker 4: in the world that we live in right now, and

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Speaker 4: this is not going to change over now right, How

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Speaker 4: do we create an environment at home and for teachers

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Speaker 4: who are listening in the classroom that foster is a

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Speaker 4: desire to learn and a reduced interest in grades and scores.

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Speaker 2: Well, again, every time I answer a version of this question,

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Speaker 2: I have to push back on the premise of this

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Speaker 2: is the world we live in, et cetera. You know,

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Speaker 2: realism is profoundly conservative when it's framed that way as

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Speaker 2: a way of discouraging us from questioning the premise, which

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Speaker 2: is why do we have that system? And how do

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Speaker 2: we go about changing it? But in the meantime, there's

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Speaker 2: a couple of things we can do. First, is we

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Speaker 2: minimize the harm of anything like grades in all the

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Speaker 2: ways that I've been talking about here, both at home

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Speaker 2: and at school. Stop doing the bad stuff, or at

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Speaker 2: least dial it back as much as you can possibly

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Speaker 2: get away with, and then think about the good stuff.

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Speaker 2: And that looks different depending on whether you have little

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Speaker 2: kids or big kids, whether you're a parent or a

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Speaker 2: teacher or an administrator. But it opens up a whole

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Speaker 2: different conversation, a whole new book about what promotes and

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Speaker 2: sustains delight. How do we avoid killing the curiosity that

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Speaker 2: kids start out with. And in part it's about making

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Speaker 2: sure that schooling is not just about cramming forgettable facts

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Speaker 2: into short term memory. It's about asking deep, meaningful questions

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Speaker 2: and creating projects and problems to try to have some

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Speaker 2: answer there, not just practicing skills and isolation, not assessing

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Speaker 2: with tests or quizzes. Ever, because authentic assessment and there's

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Speaker 2: a whole library on that topic can allow teachers to

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Speaker 2: get a sense of what kids understand and where they

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Speaker 2: need help without every giving a test, because tests measure

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Speaker 2: what matters least, and they can have more emphasis on

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Speaker 2: collaboration in the classroom, where kids are learning with and

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Speaker 2: from one another most of the time, in pairs and

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Speaker 2: small groups. And finally, and here I'm trying to obviously

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Speaker 2: quickly summarize a great deal of stuff in a few words,

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Speaker 2: is the way we can sustain kid's excitement about learning

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Speaker 2: is by giving them more say about what they're learning

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Speaker 2: and how and when and with whom and why. The

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Speaker 2: classrooms where it's easiest to see that the kid's intrinsic

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Speaker 2: motivation is there are not just those without rewards and punishments, grades,

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Speaker 2: tests and so on. It's those where the kids not

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Speaker 2: only individually but as a community of learners are democratically

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Speaker 2: making decis about the topics they're going to address and

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Speaker 2: how they're going to address them. Because if I never

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Speaker 2: tire of pointing out, kids learn how to make good

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Speaker 2: decisions by making decisions, not by following directions.

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Speaker 3: I feel like we could just completely reinvent the school

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Speaker 3: system based on this conversation, and there's a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of work to do. Alfie Cone, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: What an absolute delight to be able to spend some

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Speaker 3: time with you again and learn from you and absorb

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Speaker 3: your ideas, your thoughts, your wisdom around reports for this

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Speaker 3: time of year where everyone's starting to get nervous about

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Speaker 3: what's going to happen. Hopefully this has changed people's attitudes substantially.

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Speaker 3: Great to be with you, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: Oh my pleasure. Nice to talk to you again.

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Speaker 3: Alfie dot org is where you find everything you need

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Speaker 3: to know about Alfie Cone, including his books. You'll find

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Speaker 3: them wherever you normally would buy your books, and you

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Speaker 3: can also find them at his website. That's Alfiekne dot org.

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Speaker 3: That's Cone k n Healthycne dot org. We really hope

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Speaker 3: that this podcast has given you something to think about,

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Speaker 3: really really insightful, really provocative, and I have to say,

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Speaker 3: I'm pretty happy with the way we're doing stuff.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting as we've taken a really huge step back

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Speaker 4: on report cards. They really don't play a huge part

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Speaker 4: in our day to day life. The kids' grades.

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Speaker 3: Actually, they've gone through the road. That's yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 3: been blown.

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Speaker 4: Away and they've come home so elated, and we don't

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Speaker 4: push them to do their homework.

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Speaker 3: And you know what we do when they come home

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Speaker 3: with a good grade, We say, how does that feel?

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Speaker 3: And what did you do to get that grade? And

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Speaker 3: what do you feel when you're in that class? How

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Speaker 3: are you enjoying the class like That's the that's the

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Speaker 3: crux of it, isn't it how much you enjoying it?

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Speaker 3: Because that's getting into that intrinsic motivation. And then what

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Speaker 3: did you do to get that grade? And how does

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Speaker 3: it feel to get a grade like that? It's just

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Speaker 3: a really it's such a low pressure response.

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Speaker 4: Well, and we're just seeing their intrinsic motivation to learn

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Speaker 4: increase as we take all the pressure off them from

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Speaker 4: our end at least to just enjoy their learning process.

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Speaker 3: And two, I know our time is up, but two

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Speaker 3: really quick examples. When our second daughter was finishing high

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Speaker 3: school doing her year twelve exams from the start of

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Speaker 3: year twelve, we said, there's no pressure from us. Do

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Speaker 3: whatever you need to do, and we will support you

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Speaker 3: and encourage you so long as you know what the

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Speaker 3: expectation is once you finish high school that you're either

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Speaker 3: earning full time or learning full time. Just enjoy your

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Speaker 3: twelve and spend time with your friends and do whatever

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Speaker 3: you feel you need to educationally. And she ended up

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Speaker 3: getting a phenomenal score even though we were not once,

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Speaker 3: not a single time throughout all of your twelve did

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Speaker 3: we say, hey, you need to do some study. No once,

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Speaker 3: And the same with our daughter who's now going into

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Speaker 3: year twelve. She's pretty much just picked up a whole

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Speaker 3: lot of not quite but almost straight a's in her

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Speaker 3: report card, and we're not interested in it, but we're

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Speaker 3: delighted for her because she's loving the exp sperience and

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Speaker 3: she's actually enjoying her learning. We've told her pick that

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Speaker 3: she was worried about subjects that are going to get

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Speaker 3: scaled down, and we said, forget about it, don't worry

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Speaker 3: pick subjects you're going to like, and she's just having

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Speaker 3: a ball, isn't she.

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Speaker 4: It's interesting before we'd had that conversation with her, though,

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Speaker 4: she the anxiety that she was feeling because she was

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Speaker 4: working with subjects that she thought she had to do,

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Speaker 4: she had to do, and the just the pressure that

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Speaker 4: she was putting on herself to perform because she picked

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Speaker 4: those high ranking subjects, and as soon as she let

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Speaker 4: go of them and picked the things that she liked,

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Speaker 4: we've literally seen a different child.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and if

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Speaker 3: you'd like marfl about Alfie Cone, visit Alfie Cone with

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Speaker 3: a Kkohn dot org and for all of our stuff

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Speaker 3: Happy families dot com dot a u