WEBVTT - My mum is a narcissist - Talking Narcissism part 2 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.800 Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.520 were never seated. We pay our respects to their elders 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:07.600 past and present. 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:11.399 Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:24.080 recorded on Drug wallamut Land. Hi guys, and welcome back 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.760 to another episode of Life on CAAT. I'm Laura, I'm Brittany, 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.920 and I am so looking forward to today's interview. In 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.280 today's conversation because you guys might remember a few weeks ago, 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.159 we did part one of a chat around narcissism. But 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:39.640 this conversation that we had a couple of weeks back 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.520 was all around dealing with narcissism in a romantic relationship. 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.559 And I feel like there's been so many conversations recently 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:50.760 around narcissism, around narcissistic personality disorder, but so much of 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:55.680 it is always about romantic relationships, and it raised for 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.840 us so many more questions around. Okay, well, if the 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.000 explanation which is where we got to you on that episode, 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.319 for dealing with a narcissist in your life is to 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.920 cut ties with them, is to go no contact, how 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:09.959 do you then deal with a narcissist if the person 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.319 you're dealing with in your life, is actually your parent 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:14.920 or somebody who you have to co parent with where 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:16.440 you can't just cut them out completely. 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:18.480 Yeah, it's a whole different kettle of fish. And that 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.000 first episode was with Novah Gibson, who is the director, founder, 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.280 and primary counselor of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counseling service. 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.360 She's also the author of Fake Love. She has spent 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.360 her life dedicated to narcissism. We thought she was a 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.200 perfect person to come back on for part two, which 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.319 is all around family narcissism. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.840 But in order to really tackle this conversation, we didn't 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.040 want it to just be an education piece. We also 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:45.040 thought it would be really important to speak to somebody 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.560 who has experienced a narcissistic parent, because this is a 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.160 type of relationship and power dynamic that I think doesn't 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.400 get explored as often, but it is so damaging for 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.400 a child or for an adult child who needs to 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.320 grow up and overcome that sort of narcissistic abuse from 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.920 their parent. And sometimes it can be really overt and 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.800 it can be really damaging, and then other times it 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.520 can be more covert in the ways in which that 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.080 narcissism plays out from a parent, and so we have Monique, 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.000 who is one of our listeners, joining us on the 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.720 podcast to talk through her experience with her parent, the 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.160 reason why she is now no contact with her mother, 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.880 and how that relationship played out throughout her life. Let's 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.400 get into the chat with Monique. Mannette, can you tell 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:27.920 us a little bit about what your mum's personality was 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:29.040 like when you were growing up. 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:34.120 She's very charismatic. It's just a real extrovert. People loved her. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.000 I actually thought of her when I was listening to 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.640 your episode Brett about how you dated the Associopo. You 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.880 said he would walk into a room and everybody knew 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.280 that he was there, and immediately I was just like, 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:49.560 the only person I can think of is her, because 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.560 she had there in spades. You know, everyone loved her 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:58.160 very funny and warm and beautiful, and so people would 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.480 naturally really drawn to her. But she also wanted that, 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.680 you know, she loved it. She thrived of being that 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.360 center of attention. She would go to extravagant links to 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:11.639 make them love her. You know, she would buy ridiculous 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.480 presents for people. She would buy them jewelry and pay 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.560 for their kids' holidays and things like that to make 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:22.639 people love her. But at home she was entirely different. 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.480 You know, she would have these episodes where she would 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.760 fly off the handle. We would come home from somewhere 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.360 and she would be sure that my dad was looking 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:32.960 at some other woman all night long and things like that, 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:34.920 and these these episodes would last for sort of two 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:39.000 days of just walking on eggshows, but out and about 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.320 to other people and to our peers and her friends, 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:47.800 she was just the best, just the most charismatic person ever. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:51.600 So it was quite polarizing in that sense, but we 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:53.320 knew that that was who she was. 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.560 How did your dad manage the relationship at that time? Like, 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.680 if there was this volatility at home, do you remember 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.280 how he was kind of like what his reaction to 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:02.840 it would be. 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.760 Yeah, he was always very gentle with her in a 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:08.560 sense that I think of it now, I'm like, man, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.840 you are so patient. You are the most patient person. 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.560 And for some context as well, he is just the 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:17.800 most beautiful person. Like it's actually quite tragic to think 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:21.640 that the nicest, kindest dude he ended up married to 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.839 someone for thirty odd years that was just a total 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.760 of nasist that didn't bring him a lot of joy 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:28.920 apart from his children. 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.880 Do you feel like you and your siblings? How many 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:32.680 siblings do you have? 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:36.080 I have four, there's lots of us. Yeah, I'm one 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:36.360 of four. 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.440 Two Do you feel like growing up there was one 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.400 special golden child that got all the love and all 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:44.840 the attention, that could do no wrong, like the Teflon child, 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.160 and then there was one that was I don't want 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.159 to say picked on and bullied, but maybe that was 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:49.599 the case. 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.360 I don't know if there was a golden one, but 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.880 there was definitely one that was pecked on, and quite 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:59.479 obviously so. And now in hindsight and being an adult, 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:04.800 can see that it was quite sick really, because my sister, 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.640 who was the pect on one, she's just this like 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.159 beautiful goddess creature, and I feel like she was always 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.760 quite jealous of her, but she was always in trouble 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.360 right she was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid. I 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.600 always thought it was down to that, the fact that 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.800 you know, she was just bringing home strife quite often 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:27.119 as a like troublesome teenager, and I thought that was why, 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.080 you know, they just didn't get on. But now in hindsight, 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.920 I think no, it wasn't that. It was like it 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.920 was somebody that she had to share the attention with 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.440 that was hard for her, and it was hard to 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.119 see because they look quite similar as well. I think 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.440 that it was hard for her in that sense. But 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:45.960 I mean, to this day, it's affected my sister. Like 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.520 she's not a hugger, she doesn't like people to touch her, 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:52.120 she's not affectionate, but she wasn't given affection. Yeah, of course, 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.520 you know throughout her life. Really she wasn't given that 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.800 affection by our mother, things like that, So I think 0:05:58.839 --> 0:05:59.680 that's affected her. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.400 I mean, when we've been unpacking this idea of dealing 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:06.520 with a narcissistic parent, there's so much conversation around narcissistic 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:10.000 romantic relationships, there's not as many conversations around dealing with 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.880 a narcissistic relative, mostly parent, because that power dynamic is 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.640 so severe. Did you feel and one of the things 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.200 that seems to this recurrent, I guess indicator is the 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.159 use of your children as almost like as property. But 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:25.560 I don't know if property is the best way of 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.080 saying it. Almost as though they are a reflection of you, 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:30.719 like their success is or reflection of your success. And 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.120 there's almost instead of having children in order to set 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:35.480 them up to be the best people that they can 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.440 be individually, it's how can they serve me? This sort 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:40.600 of like, well you owe me because I'm your mum. 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.839 I feel like with ours. It goes against that sort 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:45.920 of stigma and the scenes that she liked to keep 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:50.160 people below her slightly, so she was never trying to 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.360 spend time with her equals. She always looked for people 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.120 that were maybe a little bit more vulnerable that maybe 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.760 would really need her. So she looked for sort of 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:02.080 the outcast, the the people that were maybe a little 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.279 bit more geeky, you know, because she was always like 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:08.480 this cool, this popular, this beautiful lady, and those people 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:10.840 would build her up, you know, they would attach themselves 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:14.320 to her. And so I think with us she always 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:18.800 wanted but less, which is really sad for us. You know, 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.080 she would just be like, just get married, just get married, 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.240 just have kids, don't worry about school, things like that. 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.240 We've all about against that. But for us, she always 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.920 wanted that power that you were talking about to always 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.680 be able to wield that, so she would keep herself elevated. 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.880 It's unusual that she would say, just get married and 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:40.920 don't worry about an education, Like that's a big statement. 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.360 But also it's a really strange thing to say, I'm 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:45.640 going to make sure I keep you that one step 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:46.800 lower intellectually. 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.080 Yeah, but also I mean makes sense if you feel 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.200 like you're in competition with your daughters, yes, which is 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.040 such a messed up power dynamic in itself. 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.120 They're and money as well, though, So my dad was 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.880 always well of Like my dad always did well and 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:04.040 I think that that's what gave her a sense of 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:08.320 pride in herself. That she could go and splash out 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.280 on things, she could go and be generous to her friends. 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.280 And if she kept that for herself but kept us 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:18.280 below her, then she would always weld that power of 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.640 a sense of oh, you need me because I can 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:22.080 buy you this and I can buy you that. 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.040 Your mum went on to have an affair, yeah, which 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.480 you found out about later in life. Can you talk 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.200 me through that phase and how she I guess once 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:35.360 it all came to light, how she responded to that period. 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:37.720 I mean I wish she could say, you know, she 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:40.679 said sorry and that she left us alone and that 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.280 we got a breathing space from her in terms of 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.240 just being able to heal. But we didn't. It was 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:50.760 just the usual, like gaslighting and manipulation and blaming everyone 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.719 else for her actions. It was very stereotypical in the 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.800 sense that it's not my fauld, it's your fauld. I've 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.880 done this, and actually, you guys, we've because you love 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.240 your dad more and he doesn't even really like me. 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.920 And how old were you when this affair happened. 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.640 I was twenty one and my youngest sibling was eighteen. Yeah, 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.440 my oldest sister was pregnant, was their first grandchild, so 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.720 she had a lot to lose in that sense. But 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.000 also we were all adults. We were all making our 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.800 own decisions. You know, we had the choice of whether 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.679 or not we had to spend time with her, right. 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:28.080 Yeah. 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.080 Also, because we're adults, we're also privy to every detail 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.320 and we know right from wrong. We know everything, as 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.520 opposed to little kids. When this happens to little kids, 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.079 they don't get to say and they don't know everything. 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.240 So it's definitely different as you're older. 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.000 But even so, I mean having that flipped and saying, well, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.920 you're the reason that I had an affair. It seems 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.719 incomprehensible that someone could blame that on anyone, whether it 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:56.760 be their family or something an external factor. What were 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:58.679 the excuses that she was coming up with, What were 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.600 the reasonings apart from it being broadly it's everybody else's fault, 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:03.880 But how did she rationalize it to herself that it 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:05.160 was other people's fault. 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:09.480 That our dad worked too much, that we always just 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:10.200 loved him more. 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.440 It's funny. We spoke to Sam Fisher recently and he 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.360 spoke about his relationship with a narcissistic parent, his father, 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.360 and just the things you're even saying now are so 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:21.920 similar to what he went through. And his dad had 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.040 an affair and completely blamed him as well, like he 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.040 was the child that was picked on out of his kids, 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.320 out of his siblings. And then his dad was like, 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.600 you know, basically it's on you, like you needed too 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:33.240 much and you took your mother away from me, so 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.280 I had to go and sleep with someone else. What 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:37.640 happened when the affair came out? And I asked that 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:41.320 because sometimes there's a level of the narcissist wanting people 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:43.719 to know, like sometimes it's I want this to be 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:45.400 out because I want to be the victim, and I 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:47.280 want to play this and this card and this card. 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.160 How did it come out? 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.520 She definitely lost a lot of people because so many 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.280 people were really really shocked. They couldn't compute the person 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.800 that they knew to have done this and to carry 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.679 on kind of just hurting us because the messages, just 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:07.080 the gas slighting messages. But also my dad just wanted 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:09.640 to tie up the divorce quickly, and she was going 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:11.880 to the lawyers saying that, you know, he was just 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.560 this piece of shit bully basically just beating her up 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.439 every day for years, which is just all complete lies. 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.440 She was saying that to the lawyers, but she wasn't 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:24.280 saying it to other people because they knew that this 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.559 was just not the chores, right, So we had that 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.400 sort of thing to just make us feel even worse, 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.679 to be like why are you doing this? Like just 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.880 go away, you know, take whatever you want and go, 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.960 but you don't need to keep kicking us. We're down already. 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:41.880 You made the decision to cut your mum from your 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.920 life completely, which I even though you have so many reasons, 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.280 even though your parents have done so many things that 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:49.880 and this goes for anybody who deals with a narcissistic parent, 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.280 there is so much repetitive behavior. It's still really hard 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.960 to come to the realization and the acceptance that that 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.760 person's not going to be in your life anymore. How 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.600 did you make that decision, and also how did you 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:04.920 deal with or did you feel any guilt around it 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:05.440 at the time. 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.600 I feel guilt at times when other people say it 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.199 to me, you know, when they give you those platitudes of, oh, 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.400 but it's your mum, you know, like you've got to 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.800 let her see your kids. You know, that's their grandmother, 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.200 things like that. I feel it then, and I hate 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.319 it because it's like, yeah, I can't forget that that's 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.920 my mother. But for me, I maybe I'm not as 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:30.400 nice as a person. You know that I don't actually 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.640 carry that guilt, And I think I'm actually lucky in 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.600 that scenes because I'm not way down by it, because 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.280 I really just think that this is a protection for myself. 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.440 You know. It's almost like physical pain, you know, like 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.600 your body locks up. It's your body's reaction to pain, 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:46.800 and it's the same for me. I'm just like, I'm 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:51.199 just protecting myself from pain. So no, I don't feel guilty. 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.520 You're also protecting your kids though, because this is the thing, 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.120 right when you have someone who's a narcissistic parent, and 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.199 you've experienced it all throughout your own childhood, you then 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.080 when you become a parent, feel this immense responsibility to 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.040 not allow that person to let your kids down, because 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.160 that's what they will do. Eventually, they'll show themselves in 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:10.600 the ways that they are, and they will never be 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.480 able to show up in the way of a loving, stable, 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:16.520 consistent grandparent because they don't have the capacity to, because 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:18.400 they are a narcissist exactly. 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:20.319 It's interesting that you say, you know, maybe I'm not 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.960 a very nice person. I don't think that's accurate at all. 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.199 I think you've just made a decision for your own 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:26.520 and your family's well being. 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.480 I think it's also partly because people don't understand. They 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.240 think that like, you know, oh, well you can forgive 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.560 you know, she made a mistake. And it's very different 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.080 when there's one parent who's had an affair and it's 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.480 like that affair is not indicative of their entire personality, 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.000 because that does happen as well, and relationships are complicated 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.840 and affairs happen, but when it's part of a bigger 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.800 picture that pertains to a personality disorder, then that's a 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:52.479 very different story. And it's hard for other people who 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:54.839 sit outside of you to understand or to know that 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.559 because they've not experienced the twenty years that came previously. 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.240 It's always given by people that have experienced no trauma 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.520 and no dysfunction in their lives that are like, oh, 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.439 you've got to forgive them, you know, But it isn't 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.760 even just that a fear, Like if it was just 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.160 the affair, then of course, like you move on. You know, 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:17.880 people make mistakes, they're human, or they fall in love 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:22.080 like whatever. But it is all the years of emotional 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.480 abuse beforehand that is really why you cut them off. 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.440 It's not because they've made a mistake or they've hurt 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.840 your feelings by doing this behavior. It's all the years 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.920 beforehand that makes you cut them off. 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:36.760 And how long has it been now since you haven't 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:37.800 had contact with your mom? 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:42.040 It's been nearly ten years, and sporadically, like my siblings 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.400 have got texes, I haven't. But it's so much better, 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:47.120 And that's all I want to say to other people 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.120 is that it gets so much better. As time goes on, 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.280 you know, you have some clarity, like the smoke clears 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.960 and they're gone, and you're like, I can look at 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.880 this and be like, Okay, might be embarrassing for a 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.880 little while, because this person is biologically programmed to love you, right, 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.040 and they've caused all this pain to you. It's embarrassing 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.200 to sit there with friends, but you're gonna feel so 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:12.320 much better without that person who is just never bringing 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:13.280 peace to your table. 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.840 Has your mum in that ten years, has she ever 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.280 accepted any blame? Has she ever tried to make amends? 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.400 Has there been any an apology, any attempts, or does 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.920 she see this whole thing as though she's the victim 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:28.160 in this. 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.760 I couldn't speak for her anymore because I just don't know. 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.520 I know she has seen messages of I'm sorry, but 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.240 she's also seen messages to one of my siblings that 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.960 she's dying, and then we find out she's not actually dying. 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.760 You know, she just wants your attention, you know, So 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.400 I've now got this random disease and you need to 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.600 speak to me low and behold, there's no disease. And 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.320 so on those occasions, I'm just like Oh, it's just 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:55.440 manipulation again. 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:57.720 What do you think you would do now, Monique? 0:15:57.720 --> 0:15:58.560 Out of curiosity. 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.760 I know it's a strange rhetorical question, but if that 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:03.520 was the case, and after all this time and you've 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.840 got no connection that your mum did come back and 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:08.240 say that and it turned out to be true, do 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.040 you feel like any part of you needs to go 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.600 and see her if she had a disease that we 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:16.400 know was maybe going to end her life, do you 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:18.200 think you would need to have that closure and that 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:19.920 wrap up and that final goodbye or do you think 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.280 you would be okay with just continuing to go through 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:23.200 life now as you are. 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.000 I think I've wrapped it up years ago for me. 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.480 I mean, I can only speak for myself, not my siblings. 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.600 But I don't think it needs to be done because 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:34.960 I feel like it might just cause more pain. And 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:36.640 I don't even want to cause her pain, Like it 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.280 might be really painful for her, you know, to have 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.640 to go through because at the end of the day, 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.200 I forgive her because I don't want to carry around anger. 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.400 I don't want to feel shitty about the situation, right, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.800 and so I absolutely forgive her about I don't need 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.800 to see her for that. You know, people often think 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:55.920 that forgiveness means that you spend all this time with 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:57.800 them and that they're in your lives, but no, it doesn't. 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.000 It just means that you're not hanging on to this anyway. 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.800 Now that we've spoken to somebody who has had lived experience, 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.680 and if you were someone who has been navigating their 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.760 relationship with a narcissistic parent as well, we hope that 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.720 that conversation with Monique might be something that you find 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.520 similarities in, or you might find some comfort in hearing 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.280 other people who have been through it as well. 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.040 I could have spoken to Monique for hours. I hope 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.800 that if you guys are going through something similar, you 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.600 took some confident in that, or you could relate to 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.040 that in some way. But now let's get into a 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:30.560 more detailed chat with Nova. 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:31.600 Never. 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.280 I was actually gobsmacked at the response we had from 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.840 the narcissistic episode, but the number of people that wrote saying, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.080 can you guys do an episode on narcissism with a 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.720 family member, I couldn't believe how many people were in 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.400 these situations. Yeah, I mean, in your world, how common 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.200 is having a family member with narcissism. 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.399 It's very very common. Will you think about it. A 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.560 narcissist much of the time in an intimate relationship is 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.199 going to who have learnt that behavior somewhere. Not all 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.920 the time. There's sometimes it's just not explainable around how 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:11.160 they develop this personality disorder. But much of the time 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:15.680 it's being role modeled by someone at home who is 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:22.200 narcissistic themselves, who is rewarding them for cheating and lying 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.080 and teaching them that there are no rules, they should 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.879 just take what they want, and basically teaching them to 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:34.240 have no empathy. This is being hardwired or conditioned into 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.480 a brain that's still growing. Our brains don't stop growing 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:41.480 till wear twenty five, so this is what they're learning, 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.719 I guess at home. It is very very common, And 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.200 I would speak to a client in my practice every day, 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:54.080 at least one every day who is struggling with a 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:59.520 narcissistic parent who's really just as an adult coming to 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.160 term because they've had that light bulb moment and they've 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.240 someone's mentioned the word narcissist and or they've started googling 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:12.000 their parents' behavior. Why because it hurts They never feel 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:16.960 emotion they never have felt emotionally safe around their parent. 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.000 They were never allowed to have any boundaries, never allowed 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:23.000 to have any needs, And as they look back over 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:28.960 their lifespan, they realized that those toxic behaviors, the way 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.200 they were treated, the way they were abused, were consistent 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.359 over space and time for the entirety of their lives. 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:42.920 And they really suffer because they feel this massive sense 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:48.760 of obligation to the parent who birthed them, and that's 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:53.000 a debt in the narcissistic parents' eyes, that's a debt 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.719 you will never pay in full, and a sense of 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:01.320 obligation and guilt is instilled in children who have been 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.760 conditioned their entire lives to meet the needs of the 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:06.639