Speaker 1: Life Uncut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands
Speaker 1: were never seated. We pay our respects to their elders
Speaker 1: past and present.
Speaker 2: Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was
Speaker 2: recorded on Drug wallamut Land. Hi guys, and welcome back
Speaker 2: to another episode of Life on CAAT. I'm Laura, I'm Brittany,
Speaker 2: and I am so looking forward to today's interview. In
Speaker 2: today's conversation because you guys might remember a few weeks ago,
Speaker 2: we did part one of a chat around narcissism. But
Speaker 2: this conversation that we had a couple of weeks back
Speaker 2: was all around dealing with narcissism in a romantic relationship.
Speaker 2: And I feel like there's been so many conversations recently
Speaker 2: around narcissism, around narcissistic personality disorder, but so much of
Speaker 2: it is always about romantic relationships, and it raised for
Speaker 2: us so many more questions around. Okay, well, if the
Speaker 2: explanation which is where we got to you on that episode,
Speaker 2: for dealing with a narcissist in your life is to
Speaker 2: cut ties with them, is to go no contact, how
Speaker 2: do you then deal with a narcissist if the person
Speaker 2: you're dealing with in your life, is actually your parent
Speaker 2: or somebody who you have to co parent with where
Speaker 2: you can't just cut them out completely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a whole different kettle of fish. And that
Speaker 1: first episode was with Novah Gibson, who is the director, founder,
Speaker 1: and primary counselor of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counseling service.
Speaker 1: She's also the author of Fake Love. She has spent
Speaker 1: her life dedicated to narcissism. We thought she was a
Speaker 1: perfect person to come back on for part two, which
Speaker 1: is all around family narcissism.
Speaker 2: But in order to really tackle this conversation, we didn't
Speaker 2: want it to just be an education piece. We also
Speaker 2: thought it would be really important to speak to somebody
Speaker 2: who has experienced a narcissistic parent, because this is a
Speaker 2: type of relationship and power dynamic that I think doesn't
Speaker 2: get explored as often, but it is so damaging for
Speaker 2: a child or for an adult child who needs to
Speaker 2: grow up and overcome that sort of narcissistic abuse from
Speaker 2: their parent. And sometimes it can be really overt and
Speaker 2: it can be really damaging, and then other times it
Speaker 2: can be more covert in the ways in which that
Speaker 2: narcissism plays out from a parent, and so we have Monique,
Speaker 2: who is one of our listeners, joining us on the
Speaker 2: podcast to talk through her experience with her parent, the
Speaker 2: reason why she is now no contact with her mother,
Speaker 2: and how that relationship played out throughout her life. Let's
Speaker 2: get into the chat with Monique. Mannette, can you tell
Speaker 2: us a little bit about what your mum's personality was
Speaker 2: like when you were growing up.
Speaker 3: She's very charismatic. It's just a real extrovert. People loved her.
Speaker 3: I actually thought of her when I was listening to
Speaker 3: your episode Brett about how you dated the Associopo. You
Speaker 3: said he would walk into a room and everybody knew
Speaker 3: that he was there, and immediately I was just like,
Speaker 3: the only person I can think of is her, because
Speaker 3: she had there in spades. You know, everyone loved her
Speaker 3: very funny and warm and beautiful, and so people would
Speaker 3: naturally really drawn to her. But she also wanted that,
Speaker 3: you know, she loved it. She thrived of being that
Speaker 3: center of attention. She would go to extravagant links to
Speaker 3: make them love her. You know, she would buy ridiculous
Speaker 3: presents for people. She would buy them jewelry and pay
Speaker 3: for their kids' holidays and things like that to make
Speaker 3: people love her. But at home she was entirely different.
Speaker 3: You know, she would have these episodes where she would
Speaker 3: fly off the handle. We would come home from somewhere
Speaker 3: and she would be sure that my dad was looking
Speaker 3: at some other woman all night long and things like that,
Speaker 3: and these these episodes would last for sort of two
Speaker 3: days of just walking on eggshows, but out and about
Speaker 3: to other people and to our peers and her friends,
Speaker 3: she was just the best, just the most charismatic person ever.
Speaker 3: So it was quite polarizing in that sense, but we
Speaker 3: knew that that was who she was.
Speaker 2: How did your dad manage the relationship at that time? Like,
Speaker 2: if there was this volatility at home, do you remember
Speaker 2: how he was kind of like what his reaction to
Speaker 2: it would be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was always very gentle with her in a
Speaker 3: sense that I think of it now, I'm like, man,
Speaker 3: you are so patient. You are the most patient person.
Speaker 3: And for some context as well, he is just the
Speaker 3: most beautiful person. Like it's actually quite tragic to think
Speaker 3: that the nicest, kindest dude he ended up married to
Speaker 3: someone for thirty odd years that was just a total
Speaker 3: of nasist that didn't bring him a lot of joy
Speaker 3: apart from his children.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like you and your siblings? How many
Speaker 1: siblings do you have?
Speaker 3: I have four, there's lots of us. Yeah, I'm one
Speaker 3: of four.
Speaker 1: Two Do you feel like growing up there was one
Speaker 1: special golden child that got all the love and all
Speaker 1: the attention, that could do no wrong, like the Teflon child,
Speaker 1: and then there was one that was I don't want
Speaker 1: to say picked on and bullied, but maybe that was
Speaker 1: the case.
Speaker 3: I don't know if there was a golden one, but
Speaker 3: there was definitely one that was pecked on, and quite
Speaker 3: obviously so. And now in hindsight and being an adult,
Speaker 3: can see that it was quite sick really, because my sister,
Speaker 3: who was the pect on one, she's just this like
Speaker 3: beautiful goddess creature, and I feel like she was always
Speaker 3: quite jealous of her, but she was always in trouble
Speaker 3: right she was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid. I
Speaker 3: always thought it was down to that, the fact that
Speaker 3: you know, she was just bringing home strife quite often
Speaker 3: as a like troublesome teenager, and I thought that was why,
Speaker 3: you know, they just didn't get on. But now in hindsight,
Speaker 3: I think no, it wasn't that. It was like it
Speaker 3: was somebody that she had to share the attention with
Speaker 3: that was hard for her, and it was hard to
Speaker 3: see because they look quite similar as well. I think
Speaker 3: that it was hard for her in that sense. But
Speaker 3: I mean, to this day, it's affected my sister. Like
Speaker 3: she's not a hugger, she doesn't like people to touch her,
Speaker 3: she's not affectionate, but she wasn't given affection. Yeah, of course,
Speaker 3: you know throughout her life. Really she wasn't given that
Speaker 3: affection by our mother, things like that, So I think
Speaker 3: that's affected her.
Speaker 2: I mean, when we've been unpacking this idea of dealing
Speaker 2: with a narcissistic parent, there's so much conversation around narcissistic
Speaker 2: romantic relationships, there's not as many conversations around dealing with
Speaker 2: a narcissistic relative, mostly parent, because that power dynamic is
Speaker 2: so severe. Did you feel and one of the things
Speaker 2: that seems to this recurrent, I guess indicator is the
Speaker 2: use of your children as almost like as property. But
Speaker 2: I don't know if property is the best way of
Speaker 2: saying it. Almost as though they are a reflection of you,
Speaker 2: like their success is or reflection of your success. And
Speaker 2: there's almost instead of having children in order to set
Speaker 2: them up to be the best people that they can
Speaker 2: be individually, it's how can they serve me? This sort
Speaker 2: of like, well you owe me because I'm your mum.
Speaker 3: I feel like with ours. It goes against that sort
Speaker 3: of stigma and the scenes that she liked to keep
Speaker 3: people below her slightly, so she was never trying to
Speaker 3: spend time with her equals. She always looked for people
Speaker 3: that were maybe a little bit more vulnerable that maybe
Speaker 3: would really need her. So she looked for sort of
Speaker 3: the outcast, the the people that were maybe a little
Speaker 3: bit more geeky, you know, because she was always like
Speaker 3: this cool, this popular, this beautiful lady, and those people
Speaker 3: would build her up, you know, they would attach themselves
Speaker 3: to her. And so I think with us she always
Speaker 3: wanted but less, which is really sad for us. You know,
Speaker 3: she would just be like, just get married, just get married,
Speaker 3: just have kids, don't worry about school, things like that.
Speaker 3: We've all about against that. But for us, she always
Speaker 3: wanted that power that you were talking about to always
Speaker 3: be able to wield that, so she would keep herself elevated.
Speaker 1: It's unusual that she would say, just get married and
Speaker 1: don't worry about an education, Like that's a big statement.
Speaker 1: But also it's a really strange thing to say, I'm
Speaker 1: going to make sure I keep you that one step
Speaker 1: lower intellectually.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also I mean makes sense if you feel
Speaker 2: like you're in competition with your daughters, yes, which is
Speaker 2: such a messed up power dynamic in itself.
Speaker 3: They're and money as well, though, So my dad was
Speaker 3: always well of Like my dad always did well and
Speaker 3: I think that that's what gave her a sense of
Speaker 3: pride in herself. That she could go and splash out
Speaker 3: on things, she could go and be generous to her friends.
Speaker 3: And if she kept that for herself but kept us
Speaker 3: below her, then she would always weld that power of
Speaker 3: a sense of oh, you need me because I can
Speaker 3: buy you this and I can buy you that.
Speaker 2: Your mum went on to have an affair, yeah, which
Speaker 2: you found out about later in life. Can you talk
Speaker 2: me through that phase and how she I guess once
Speaker 2: it all came to light, how she responded to that period.
Speaker 3: I mean I wish she could say, you know, she
Speaker 3: said sorry and that she left us alone and that
Speaker 3: we got a breathing space from her in terms of
Speaker 3: just being able to heal. But we didn't. It was
Speaker 3: just the usual, like gaslighting and manipulation and blaming everyone
Speaker 3: else for her actions. It was very stereotypical in the
Speaker 3: sense that it's not my fauld, it's your fauld. I've
Speaker 3: done this, and actually, you guys, we've because you love
Speaker 3: your dad more and he doesn't even really like me.
Speaker 1: And how old were you when this affair happened.
Speaker 3: I was twenty one and my youngest sibling was eighteen. Yeah,
Speaker 3: my oldest sister was pregnant, was their first grandchild, so
Speaker 3: she had a lot to lose in that sense. But
Speaker 3: also we were all adults. We were all making our
Speaker 3: own decisions. You know, we had the choice of whether
Speaker 3: or not we had to spend time with her, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Also, because we're adults, we're also privy to every detail
Speaker 3: and we know right from wrong. We know everything, as
Speaker 3: opposed to little kids. When this happens to little kids,
Speaker 3: they don't get to say and they don't know everything.
Speaker 3: So it's definitely different as you're older.
Speaker 2: But even so, I mean having that flipped and saying, well,
Speaker 2: you're the reason that I had an affair. It seems
Speaker 2: incomprehensible that someone could blame that on anyone, whether it
Speaker 2: be their family or something an external factor. What were
Speaker 2: the excuses that she was coming up with, What were
Speaker 2: the reasonings apart from it being broadly it's everybody else's fault,
Speaker 2: But how did she rationalize it to herself that it
Speaker 2: was other people's fault.
Speaker 3: That our dad worked too much, that we always just
Speaker 3: loved him more.
Speaker 1: It's funny. We spoke to Sam Fisher recently and he
Speaker 1: spoke about his relationship with a narcissistic parent, his father,
Speaker 1: and just the things you're even saying now are so
Speaker 1: similar to what he went through. And his dad had
Speaker 1: an affair and completely blamed him as well, like he
Speaker 1: was the child that was picked on out of his kids,
Speaker 1: out of his siblings. And then his dad was like,
Speaker 1: you know, basically it's on you, like you needed too
Speaker 1: much and you took your mother away from me, so
Speaker 1: I had to go and sleep with someone else. What
Speaker 1: happened when the affair came out? And I asked that
Speaker 1: because sometimes there's a level of the narcissist wanting people
Speaker 1: to know, like sometimes it's I want this to be
Speaker 1: out because I want to be the victim, and I
Speaker 1: want to play this and this card and this card.
Speaker 1: How did it come out?
Speaker 3: She definitely lost a lot of people because so many
Speaker 3: people were really really shocked. They couldn't compute the person
Speaker 3: that they knew to have done this and to carry
Speaker 3: on kind of just hurting us because the messages, just
Speaker 3: the gas slighting messages. But also my dad just wanted
Speaker 3: to tie up the divorce quickly, and she was going
Speaker 3: to the lawyers saying that, you know, he was just
Speaker 3: this piece of shit bully basically just beating her up
Speaker 3: every day for years, which is just all complete lies.
Speaker 3: She was saying that to the lawyers, but she wasn't
Speaker 3: saying it to other people because they knew that this
Speaker 3: was just not the chores, right, So we had that
Speaker 3: sort of thing to just make us feel even worse,
Speaker 3: to be like why are you doing this? Like just
Speaker 3: go away, you know, take whatever you want and go,
Speaker 3: but you don't need to keep kicking us. We're down already.
Speaker 2: You made the decision to cut your mum from your
Speaker 2: life completely, which I even though you have so many reasons,
Speaker 2: even though your parents have done so many things that
Speaker 2: and this goes for anybody who deals with a narcissistic parent,
Speaker 2: there is so much repetitive behavior. It's still really hard
Speaker 2: to come to the realization and the acceptance that that
Speaker 2: person's not going to be in your life anymore. How
Speaker 2: did you make that decision, and also how did you
Speaker 2: deal with or did you feel any guilt around it
Speaker 2: at the time.
Speaker 3: I feel guilt at times when other people say it
Speaker 3: to me, you know, when they give you those platitudes of, oh,
Speaker 3: but it's your mum, you know, like you've got to
Speaker 3: let her see your kids. You know, that's their grandmother,
Speaker 3: things like that. I feel it then, and I hate
Speaker 3: it because it's like, yeah, I can't forget that that's
Speaker 3: my mother. But for me, I maybe I'm not as
Speaker 3: nice as a person. You know that I don't actually
Speaker 3: carry that guilt, And I think I'm actually lucky in
Speaker 3: that scenes because I'm not way down by it, because
Speaker 3: I really just think that this is a protection for myself.
Speaker 3: You know. It's almost like physical pain, you know, like
Speaker 3: your body locks up. It's your body's reaction to pain,
Speaker 3: and it's the same for me. I'm just like, I'm
Speaker 3: just protecting myself from pain. So no, I don't feel guilty.
Speaker 2: You're also protecting your kids though, because this is the thing,
Speaker 2: right when you have someone who's a narcissistic parent, and
Speaker 2: you've experienced it all throughout your own childhood, you then
Speaker 2: when you become a parent, feel this immense responsibility to
Speaker 2: not allow that person to let your kids down, because
Speaker 2: that's what they will do. Eventually, they'll show themselves in
Speaker 2: the ways that they are, and they will never be
Speaker 2: able to show up in the way of a loving, stable,
Speaker 2: consistent grandparent because they don't have the capacity to, because
Speaker 2: they are a narcissist exactly.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say, you know, maybe I'm not
Speaker 1: a very nice person. I don't think that's accurate at all.
Speaker 1: I think you've just made a decision for your own
Speaker 1: and your family's well being.
Speaker 2: I think it's also partly because people don't understand. They
Speaker 2: think that like, you know, oh, well you can forgive
Speaker 2: you know, she made a mistake. And it's very different
Speaker 2: when there's one parent who's had an affair and it's
Speaker 2: like that affair is not indicative of their entire personality,
Speaker 2: because that does happen as well, and relationships are complicated
Speaker 2: and affairs happen, but when it's part of a bigger
Speaker 2: picture that pertains to a personality disorder, then that's a
Speaker 2: very different story. And it's hard for other people who
Speaker 2: sit outside of you to understand or to know that
Speaker 2: because they've not experienced the twenty years that came previously.
Speaker 3: It's always given by people that have experienced no trauma
Speaker 3: and no dysfunction in their lives that are like, oh,
Speaker 3: you've got to forgive them, you know, But it isn't
Speaker 3: even just that a fear, Like if it was just
Speaker 3: the affair, then of course, like you move on. You know,
Speaker 3: people make mistakes, they're human, or they fall in love
Speaker 3: like whatever. But it is all the years of emotional
Speaker 3: abuse beforehand that is really why you cut them off.
Speaker 3: It's not because they've made a mistake or they've hurt
Speaker 3: your feelings by doing this behavior. It's all the years
Speaker 3: beforehand that makes you cut them off.
Speaker 1: And how long has it been now since you haven't
Speaker 1: had contact with your mom?
Speaker 3: It's been nearly ten years, and sporadically, like my siblings
Speaker 3: have got texes, I haven't. But it's so much better,
Speaker 3: And that's all I want to say to other people
Speaker 3: is that it gets so much better. As time goes on,
Speaker 3: you know, you have some clarity, like the smoke clears
Speaker 3: and they're gone, and you're like, I can look at
Speaker 3: this and be like, Okay, might be embarrassing for a
Speaker 3: little while, because this person is biologically programmed to love you, right,
Speaker 3: and they've caused all this pain to you. It's embarrassing
Speaker 3: to sit there with friends, but you're gonna feel so
Speaker 3: much better without that person who is just never bringing
Speaker 3: peace to your table.
Speaker 2: Has your mum in that ten years, has she ever
Speaker 2: accepted any blame? Has she ever tried to make amends?
Speaker 2: Has there been any an apology, any attempts, or does
Speaker 2: she see this whole thing as though she's the victim
Speaker 2: in this.
Speaker 3: I couldn't speak for her anymore because I just don't know.
Speaker 3: I know she has seen messages of I'm sorry, but
Speaker 3: she's also seen messages to one of my siblings that
Speaker 3: she's dying, and then we find out she's not actually dying.
Speaker 3: You know, she just wants your attention, you know, So
Speaker 3: I've now got this random disease and you need to
Speaker 3: speak to me low and behold, there's no disease. And
Speaker 3: so on those occasions, I'm just like Oh, it's just
Speaker 3: manipulation again.
Speaker 1: What do you think you would do now, Monique?
Speaker 3: Out of curiosity.
Speaker 1: I know it's a strange rhetorical question, but if that
Speaker 1: was the case, and after all this time and you've
Speaker 1: got no connection that your mum did come back and
Speaker 1: say that and it turned out to be true, do
Speaker 1: you feel like any part of you needs to go
Speaker 1: and see her if she had a disease that we
Speaker 1: know was maybe going to end her life, do you
Speaker 1: think you would need to have that closure and that
Speaker 1: wrap up and that final goodbye or do you think
Speaker 1: you would be okay with just continuing to go through
Speaker 1: life now as you are.
Speaker 3: I think I've wrapped it up years ago for me.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can only speak for myself, not my siblings.
Speaker 3: But I don't think it needs to be done because
Speaker 3: I feel like it might just cause more pain. And
Speaker 3: I don't even want to cause her pain, Like it
Speaker 3: might be really painful for her, you know, to have
Speaker 3: to go through because at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: I forgive her because I don't want to carry around anger.
Speaker 3: I don't want to feel shitty about the situation, right,
Speaker 3: and so I absolutely forgive her about I don't need
Speaker 3: to see her for that. You know, people often think
Speaker 3: that forgiveness means that you spend all this time with
Speaker 3: them and that they're in your lives, but no, it doesn't.
Speaker 3: It just means that you're not hanging on to this anyway.
Speaker 2: Now that we've spoken to somebody who has had lived experience,
Speaker 2: and if you were someone who has been navigating their
Speaker 2: relationship with a narcissistic parent as well, we hope that
Speaker 2: that conversation with Monique might be something that you find
Speaker 2: similarities in, or you might find some comfort in hearing
Speaker 2: other people who have been through it as well.
Speaker 1: I could have spoken to Monique for hours. I hope
Speaker 1: that if you guys are going through something similar, you
Speaker 1: took some confident in that, or you could relate to
Speaker 1: that in some way. But now let's get into a
Speaker 1: more detailed chat with Nova.
Speaker 4: Never.
Speaker 1: I was actually gobsmacked at the response we had from
Speaker 1: the narcissistic episode, but the number of people that wrote saying,
Speaker 1: can you guys do an episode on narcissism with a
Speaker 1: family member, I couldn't believe how many people were in
Speaker 1: these situations. Yeah, I mean, in your world, how common
Speaker 1: is having a family member with narcissism.
Speaker 4: It's very very common. Will you think about it. A
Speaker 4: narcissist much of the time in an intimate relationship is
Speaker 4: going to who have learnt that behavior somewhere. Not all
Speaker 4: the time. There's sometimes it's just not explainable around how
Speaker 4: they develop this personality disorder. But much of the time
Speaker 4: it's being role modeled by someone at home who is
Speaker 4: narcissistic themselves, who is rewarding them for cheating and lying
Speaker 4: and teaching them that there are no rules, they should
Speaker 4: just take what they want, and basically teaching them to
Speaker 4: have no empathy. This is being hardwired or conditioned into
Speaker 4: a brain that's still growing. Our brains don't stop growing
Speaker 4: till wear twenty five, so this is what they're learning,
Speaker 4: I guess at home. It is very very common, And
Speaker 4: I would speak to a client in my practice every day,
Speaker 4: at least one every day who is struggling with a
Speaker 4: narcissistic parent who's really just as an adult coming to
Speaker 4: term because they've had that light bulb moment and they've
Speaker 4: someone's mentioned the word narcissist and or they've started googling
Speaker 4: their parents' behavior. Why because it hurts They never feel
Speaker 4: emotion they never have felt emotionally safe around their parent.
Speaker 4: They were never allowed to have any boundaries, never allowed
Speaker 4: to have any needs, And as they look back over
Speaker 4: their lifespan, they realized that those toxic behaviors, the way
Speaker 4: they were treated, the way they were abused, were consistent
Speaker 4: over space and time for the entirety of their lives.
Speaker 4: And they really suffer because they feel this massive sense
Speaker 4: of obligation to the parent who birthed them, and that's
Speaker 4: a debt in the narcissistic parents' eyes, that's a debt
Speaker 4: you will never pay in full, and a sense of
Speaker 4: obligation and guilt is instilled in children who have been
Speaker 4: conditioned their entire lives to meet the needs of the
Speaker 4: toxic parent.
Speaker 3: Nova.
Speaker 2: I would love to know, because you mentioned that obviously
Speaker 2: it's a trait that can be passed down like it's
Speaker 2: taught to our children. But in saying that, I would
Speaker 2: also assume that there are a lot of people who
Speaker 2: have narcissistic parents who are not narcissists themselves and have this,
Speaker 2: as you say, quote unquote, light bulb moment at some
Speaker 2: point when they start to unpack their many years have
Speaker 2: hurt that they've experienced.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely. Just because there's one narcissistic parent does not
Speaker 4: mean there's going to be a narcissistic child. There could be,
Speaker 4: it's more likely than in a household where there is
Speaker 4: no narcissistic parent. Narcissistic parents will assign roles to their children,
Speaker 4: so the scapegoat child becomes the dumping ground for the
Speaker 4: narcissistic parent, will never be able to do anything right.
Speaker 4: The golden child will be the wingman, so to speak,
Speaker 4: for the narcissistic parent, and this is to put the
Speaker 4: narcissistic parent at the top of the triangle where children
Speaker 4: are forever trying to please them. It's basically about creating
Speaker 4: an organization for maximum narcissistic supply using their own children,
Speaker 4: whom they objectify just as much as anyone else. So
Speaker 4: the child who is most likely to become a narcissist
Speaker 4: is the golden child. They're rewarded for bad behavior. They're
Speaker 4: pitted against the scapegoat child who can never do anything right.
Speaker 4: And of course that golden child wants to keep their position,
Speaker 4: so they will sabotage their sibling and join forces with
Speaker 4: the narcissistic parent to demean them, sometimes very very covertly.
Speaker 4: So the child who is most likely to escape and
Speaker 4: of course not become a narcissist is the scapegoat child
Speaker 4: who is usually the most intuitive one, the most sensitive one,
Speaker 4: the one that the narcissist parent is not able to
Speaker 4: manipulate so easily. You can have narcissistic parents where there
Speaker 4: are no children who are narcissistic, and a narcissistic parent
Speaker 4: where most of the children end up being like them
Speaker 4: for reasons relating to nature or nurture.
Speaker 2: No, I feel like.
Speaker 1: It's not uncommon for people to have narcissistic traits in
Speaker 1: some capacity. Maybe it's the one off, maybe there's a
Speaker 1: little bit, but there is a difference with narcissistic traits
Speaker 1: and narcissistic personality disorder or NPD. How do we tell
Speaker 1: that difference with a family member?
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, the same way you would tell with anyone,
Speaker 4: only it's going to be more difficult for you as
Speaker 4: their child, because you've been conditioned. You've never been allowed
Speaker 4: to have any boundaries, you've never been allowed to have
Speaker 4: any needs, and you've been taught or conditioned to believe
Speaker 4: your entire life that this is what love looks like.
Speaker 4: Love is additional upon meeting someone else's needs. So I
Speaker 4: guess going back to our first episode where we talked
Speaker 4: about the intimate partner relationship and the fact that you're
Speaker 4: never going to get a diagnosis or rarely simply because
Speaker 4: the narcissist doesn't believe there's anything wrong with themselves. It's
Speaker 4: everyone around the person who finds themselves in therapy, including
Speaker 4: their own children. So, as I said, with intimate partners,
Speaker 4: it's about looking at consistent patterns of behavior over space
Speaker 4: and time, looking at the complete lack of empathy and
Speaker 4: all those traits associated with MPD, and trusting your instincts
Speaker 4: given that you are never going to get a diagnosis.
Speaker 4: The difference between someone who has narcissism or is a
Speaker 4: pathological narcissist and someone who's having a bad day or
Speaker 4: might just be a bit of a grumpy old person
Speaker 4: is that they're consistent patterns of behavior. They're not isolated incidents.
Speaker 4: I'll just touch on a couple of strategies that a
Speaker 4: narcissistic parent will use. One of them is parental alienation,
Speaker 4: trying to get that child to either not develop a
Speaker 4: loving bond with the abused parent, not developing a loving
Speaker 4: bond at all, or to destroy the love that they
Speaker 4: have for that parent. This is done through coercive control
Speaker 4: on such a passive level, where they will insidiously imply,
Speaker 4: perhaps or that the other parent has mental health issues.
Speaker 4: May be maybe the child was there when the abusive
Speaker 4: parent baited the other parent into reacting and trying uncontrollably
Speaker 4: hysterical even and then that parent, the abusive parent, took
Speaker 4: the kids out for ice cream or to take them
Speaker 4: away from the parent they're trying to make out to
Speaker 4: their child is a toxic one. These things said in
Speaker 4: the children's mind, because the actual abuser is cool and
Speaker 4: calm and collected, don't just take them out for ice cream.
Speaker 4: The other parent is in their eyes, you know, behaving
Speaker 4: erratic and frantic and maybe even a little scary. So
Speaker 4: this is what is being set up in the child's mind. Now,
Speaker 4: that is a classic example of coercive control.
Speaker 2: I think as well. This is so interesting and mostly
Speaker 2: because when we have spoken about narcissists before, it has
Speaker 2: always been in terms of romantic relationships, and we are
Speaker 2: very aware of the impact and the damage that that
Speaker 2: can have on your self confidence, on your feelings of
Speaker 2: whether you are worthy of whether you will be loved again.
Speaker 2: Like it can be truly damaging to be in a
Speaker 2: relationship with someone who's a narcissist, but I can own
Speaker 2: imagine that the damage of having a parent who is
Speaker 2: a narcissist can be equally, if not worse, in that
Speaker 2: that is your framework for what love looks like for
Speaker 2: your entire childhood. And I guess growing up these feelings
Speaker 2: of being invalidated or not good enough, or feeling unstable
Speaker 2: because there's this lack of consistency, what are the telltale
Speaker 2: signs as a personality trait for the victim that they
Speaker 2: may have a narcissistic parent.
Speaker 4: As with any narcissist, it's all about impression management, making
Speaker 4: sure they look good to the outside world. And all
Speaker 4: abuse shall remain behind closed doors and shall not be
Speaker 4: spoken about. Children don't even know that it is abuse.
Speaker 4: Often I hear so many stories where the narcissistic parent
Speaker 4: will take their young child to counseling and sit out
Speaker 4: in the waiting room, playing the role of the dutiful
Speaker 4: parent while their child goes in to be counseled for
Speaker 4: the effects of the abuse of that parent. They go
Speaker 4: to counseling to fix what's wrong with them. They're being told,
Speaker 4: even though any behavioral issues or depression anxiety are related
Speaker 4: to never being able to please and having a goalpost
Speaker 4: shifted and being abused. Essentially, they grow up believing their
Speaker 4: problem adults there's something wrong with them, and the parent
Speaker 4: uses that the fact that they've taken the child to
Speaker 4: counseling to you know, once again, put that image out
Speaker 4: to society that their mother or father of the years.
Speaker 4: So children of narcissistic parents grow up with massive anxiety
Speaker 4: because they cannot predict the consequences of their actions. One minute,
Speaker 4: you'll bring home a report cut, for instance, full of
Speaker 4: a's one bee. Oh my goodness, that's amazing. The next
Speaker 4: time you'll be punished because there was a bee. So
Speaker 4: you can't predict your behavior. It's going to be a
Speaker 4: good thing or bad thing. They're forever hyper vinculant to
Speaker 4: that parent's moods, and they grow up with these exact
Speaker 4: same anxiety disorders, often self medicating with alcohol and drugs.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like a child that grows up with
Speaker 1: a narcissistic parent is more inclined and more likely to
Speaker 1: then go on and date or be attracted to a narcissist.
Speaker 1: And then having said that, in the relationship world, once
Speaker 1: you've dated a narcissist, especially if you're under twenty five,
Speaker 1: are you more likely to continue to date people with
Speaker 1: narcissistic traits.
Speaker 4: It's very common. Looking at the scapegoat child in particular,
Speaker 4: who was never allowed to have any needs, could never
Speaker 4: ever please, it's going to be very normal for them
Speaker 4: familiar to not seek out. We never seek out a
Speaker 4: relationship that's toxic. It's that they bypass healthy relationships. They
Speaker 4: will be boring, their noose will be too big, there'll
Speaker 4: be something with them. What their subconscious is really streaming
Speaker 4: at them is they're not toxic. There's no goalpost to outrun,
Speaker 4: there's no roller coaster to climb aboard. So healthy relationships
Speaker 4: are so foreign and unfamiliar to them, and they find
Speaker 4: themselves in relationships where they have to try so hard
Speaker 4: for just bread crumps of conditional love. Of course, the
Speaker 4: golden child, who's more likely to become narcissistic, is unfortunately
Speaker 4: going to go seeking relationships where they can manipulate people
Speaker 4: to boost their own ego, to meet their own needs.
Speaker 2: And perpetuate the same thing that was done to them.
Speaker 2: In other ways. Yeah, I think in terms of children
Speaker 2: who then grow into adults. For a lot of people
Speaker 2: who grow up with a parent who's narcissistic, and you
Speaker 2: mentioned that light bulb moment where they realize that maybe
Speaker 2: this is what it is that they've been dealing with
Speaker 2: their entire life. As an adult who has realized that
Speaker 2: their parent is nice, how does one create boundaries with that?
Speaker 2: And how does one navigate a relationship with a narcissistic parent.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's incredibly hard for adult children or teenage children.
Speaker 4: How do you manage boundaries with someone who has conditioned
Speaker 4: you your entire life that you owe them. We're taught
Speaker 4: by society that you respect your parents. Your parents love you.
Speaker 4: The people who love you are at home, and when
Speaker 4: society is impacting on your belief system, it's incredibly hard
Speaker 4: to put a boundary in place with a toxic parent
Speaker 4: who has conditioned you to never be able to say no.
Speaker 4: In other words, have no boundaries. So it is going
Speaker 4: to be incredibly hard, but you have to do it
Speaker 4: while it feels bad. There is no easy way to
Speaker 4: do this. For instance, you might say to a toxic mother,
Speaker 4: we would prefer it if you called before you come over, well,
Speaker 4: toxic mother is maybe just going to ignore you. Just
Speaker 4: rock up at your house and own the place. Tell
Speaker 4: you what's dirty and what's wrong with your parenting. Perhaps
Speaker 4: try and put roadblocks between you and your partner. Or
Speaker 4: if you enforce that boundary, they're going to make you
Speaker 4: feel guilty. You explain to me why I'm your mother.
Speaker 4: So this is what you have to expect when you
Speaker 4: put the boundaries in place. But as I say to
Speaker 4: my beautiful clients, boundaries are just our self care. They're
Speaker 4: not about the other person. They're not about punishment or revenge.
Speaker 4: They're about self care. So the only people have a
Speaker 4: problem with your boundaries are the very people you need
Speaker 4: them for. So, getting back to the good of boundaries,
Speaker 4: boundaries are useless unless we have consequences. If you lower
Speaker 4: your boundary for everyone who wants to walk all over it,
Speaker 4: you may as well not have any because your boundaries
Speaker 4: only need to be enforced with the people who want
Speaker 4: to use you. So that means parents. Perhaps you say
Speaker 4: you're not welcome in my circle for you know, I'm
Speaker 4: going to have a hiatus, a break for a few weeks.
Speaker 4: When they've been manipulating you ringing you ten times a
Speaker 4: day to gossip about you know, Uncle Bob and how
Speaker 4: mean and horrible he's been, you know, and basically pit
Speaker 4: you against other family members. It's about boundaries and following
Speaker 4: that up with consequences, and that's hard when you are
Speaker 4: trauma bonded to the toxic cycle, the ups and downs,
Speaker 4: the rollercoaster with your toxic parent.
Speaker 1: But what if I feel like this is going to
Speaker 1: be starting to happen more and more with how open
Speaker 1: people are about the conversations about narcissism. I feel like
Speaker 1: now people in their teens and young adults are going
Speaker 1: to be coming to this realization quicker than we probably
Speaker 1: did in our generation because we didn't have access to
Speaker 1: the information. So if you're a young adult or a teenager,
Speaker 1: you might still be at school. But even if you're
Speaker 1: you might be at UNI right like eighteen nineteen twenty,
Speaker 1: there's still these formative years, and there's still the years
Speaker 1: that you so heavily rely on your family and your parents.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I'm thirty six, and you
Speaker 1: never outgrow that when something goes wrong, you want to
Speaker 1: call your parents. You still want to have that connection.
Speaker 1: But I know we discuss in romantic relationships. If you
Speaker 1: have this direct relationship with a narcissist, cut them off
Speaker 1: right like you go cold turkey. You don't have them
Speaker 1: in your life anymore. But you can't really do that
Speaker 1: if you're a teenager or a young adult with a
Speaker 1: parent who you do rely on. Maybe it's financially, maybe
Speaker 1: it's to literally put the roof over your head. What
Speaker 1: are you do in that situation?
Speaker 4: It's very, very difficult. There is no easy answer here.
Speaker 4: The parent has control, so the guilt and the obligation
Speaker 4: of ever having any needs of their own normally keeps
Speaker 4: them there. So if a teenager out there is actually
Speaker 4: able to assess this situation, and I guess look from
Speaker 4: the outside in which once again is incredibly difficult, get support,
Speaker 4: Speak to another family member, speak to your school counselor,
Speaker 4: but talk about it, Ring Kids Helpline, there are services
Speaker 4: out there. But yeah, I think it's about getting lots
Speaker 4: of support because we also need to be mindful that
Speaker 4: a teenager is going to need support to identify what's
Speaker 4: happening to them. And it may not be a narcissistic parent.
Speaker 4: It may be a parent who's just very strict, who
Speaker 4: that child, you know, seems as you know, a bit
Speaker 4: over the top and not narcissistic at Also, this is
Speaker 4: where we need to support them to actually identify what's
Speaker 4: going on for them simply because they're a teenager and
Speaker 4: you know, they've got so many different things going on
Speaker 4: in their life.
Speaker 1: That's also a really important point to make. I do
Speaker 1: think these terms are thrown around too loosely sometimes, and
Speaker 1: I would hate for somebody younger maybe or anyone really
Speaker 1: to hear and throw that term around. You and my
Speaker 1: parents are narcissists if maybe they are just more on
Speaker 1: the strict side. And it's from more from a conservative
Speaker 1: who knows what it is. But I do think and
Speaker 1: I do worry sometimes that these terms do get thrown
Speaker 1: around a little bit loosely.
Speaker 2: But I also I think it's an interesting one because
Speaker 2: I mean, there will be people who are young who
Speaker 2: listen to this who feel as though maybe that they
Speaker 2: are dealing with that now. But I guess in terms
Speaker 2: of my experience and not personal experience by any means,
Speaker 2: but the people in my network, my friends who are
Speaker 2: now adults, who have their own children, their own nucleus family,
Speaker 2: and they are coming to or have come to the
Speaker 2: realization over the past ten years that their parents are narcissistic.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's their mum, maybe it's their dad, maybe it's
Speaker 2: both of them. And I think of one relationship in
Speaker 2: mind where it's been so hard for her because there
Speaker 2: is no conversation. There is no explaining to your mum
Speaker 2: the ways in which they've hurt you or the ways
Speaker 2: in which they've failed you as a mum, because it
Speaker 2: is always met with, oh, you think I didn't do
Speaker 2: a good enough job, or you think I'm the problem.
Speaker 2: My heart, the guilt, yes, and it feels like guilt.
Speaker 2: And I know that this plays a part in romantic relationships,
Speaker 2: but it feels like the guilt is such a parental weapon.
Speaker 2: It's an even stronger parental weapon than it plays into
Speaker 2: other relationships.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, there's an acronym that we use in narcissistic abuse
Speaker 4: recovery with all relationships, but particularly with the We call
Speaker 4: them acons, and that's another acroum ACO n adult child
Speaker 4: of a narcissist. They have support groups of their own
Speaker 4: out there on social media. But the fog, fog, fear, obligation, guilt,
Speaker 4: those are the three weapons that the narcissistic parent uses
Speaker 4: to make sure that their child that they own, that's
Speaker 4: their property, never abandons them. They can do whatever they
Speaker 4: want and that child will be there to nurture them
Speaker 4: while they remain toxic, because of course they only get
Speaker 4: worse as they age.
Speaker 2: But knowing that this is the case, and knowing that
Speaker 2: there are these very specific techniques that are used by
Speaker 2: narcissistic parents, how do people put boundaries in place? And
Speaker 2: I know we say that consequences are important to those boundaries,
Speaker 2: but it seems as though it is almost impossible. It
Speaker 2: seems as though the outcome is simply that you may
Speaker 2: have to cut contact with a parent if you want
Speaker 2: to live a peaceful life.
Speaker 4: Yes, and that is the reality of dealing with a
Speaker 4: narcissistic parent. Most people, as you just us in that example, Laura,
Speaker 4: you try and talk to a narcissist about what they've
Speaker 4: done to you, they're going to They're going to start crying,
Speaker 4: Particularly a narcissistic mother will start crying everything I've done
Speaker 4: for you, and that's it. Discussion ended because you don't
Speaker 4: want to upset even more an old lady. So that's
Speaker 4: manipulative in itself. They will project it back on to you,
Speaker 4: you were the problem. You're ungrateful everything I did for you,
Speaker 4: and you feel that conditioned guilt and obligation. Oh my goodness,
Speaker 4: you know, I just I just have to forget about
Speaker 4: this because they really did drive me to soccer practice
Speaker 4: that time, and you know what they actually did, put
Speaker 4: a roof over my head and give me food each night,
Speaker 4: all of these things that should be taken for granted.
Speaker 4: They will never acknowledge what they did to you. Never.
Speaker 4: If they do, they're not a narcissist. They're not narcissistic.
Speaker 4: Then boundaries are everything, and consequences are going to me.
Speaker 4: Distancing yourself from that parent doesn't mean you don't see
Speaker 4: them forever, but it has to be on your terms,
Speaker 4: with your boundaries in place, because they're going to continue
Speaker 4: to hurt you and you will never heal. Just because
Speaker 4: you're related to them through DNA does not give anyone
Speaker 4: the right to abuse you.
Speaker 1: I would love to talk about a chapter in your
Speaker 1: book Fake Love where you do talk about co parenting
Speaker 1: with a narcissist, because it is a question. We get
Speaker 1: a lot from our listeners that they're writing and saying
Speaker 1: that they're co parenting with a narcissist, how to deal
Speaker 1: with it. What's the most important thing, which on surface level,
Speaker 1: I would say, you know you don't involve the kids,
Speaker 1: but what do you think is the most important thing
Speaker 1: for somebody to know going into a coparenting arrangement with
Speaker 1: a narcissist.
Speaker 4: The most important thing to know is that you can't.
Speaker 4: You cannot coparent with someone who is actively trying to
Speaker 4: counterparent everything that you do. You will know that you
Speaker 4: are never able to have a reasonable discussion with this person.
Speaker 4: Consistent patterns of behavior over space and time when you
Speaker 4: were together. It's not reasonable to think you're now going
Speaker 4: to be able to sit there and have coffee with
Speaker 4: them discussing what's in the best interests of the children
Speaker 4: when you're leaving them committing, in their eyes, the most
Speaker 4: egregious wound to their ego that you could ever commit.
Speaker 4: So they're going to use the children to get to you,
Speaker 4: to engage in litigation abuse post separation abuse. They're going
Speaker 4: to want twenty four hour a day access to you
Speaker 4: because they care about the kids, no to ruin your
Speaker 4: day at the drop of a hat to trigger you.
Speaker 4: This is your abuse. So they know they have that
Speaker 4: power from your conditioned responses. So it's about boundaries. You
Speaker 4: cannot coparent. You ask them for something for the children,
Speaker 4: you're telling them what not to do, for instance, as
Speaker 4: this is an example I use in Fake Club. I
Speaker 4: just need everyone to know that it's not gender specific, okay,
Speaker 4: because I know men contact me all the time, going
Speaker 4: me too, me too, I know, and that's why I've
Speaker 4: devoted a chapter specifically to men male victims in the book.
Speaker 4: But just for ease, I'm going to say, Mum and Dad.
Speaker 4: So mum's working back, she's getting absolutely no child's support,
Speaker 4: and little Johnny needs races. Again. The dentist has told
Speaker 4: him that his teeth the crooked and he will have
Speaker 4: much great confidence if he gets his teeth fixed. Now,
Speaker 4: Mum either has got no orders in place or very
Speaker 4: very sloppy flexible orders, which you cannot have with a narcissist.
Speaker 4: And she gets on the phone, her arms shaking because
Speaker 4: she knows what's about to happen, and she says to
Speaker 4: the narcissist, little Johnny needs braces. Now do you think
Speaker 4: the narcissist is going to say, oh, my goodness, thank
Speaker 4: you for bringing this to my attention. His teeth ol crooked,
Speaker 4: which account would you like me to put the money into?
Speaker 4: Or do you think he's going to say something along
Speaker 4: the lines of if he answers at all, strings you
Speaker 4: out for a few weeks before he answers the email
Speaker 4: whilst you're trying to get him little Johnny and very quickly.
Speaker 4: I don't think there's anything wrong with his teeth. You
Speaker 4: want his teeth to be fixed, you go fix them yourself.
Speaker 4: And if he did say yes, he would make it
Speaker 4: so incredibly difficult to get payments you just end up
Speaker 4: paying it yourself. So orders orders in place and minimal
Speaker 4: contact gray Rock. We call it where you give absolutely
Speaker 4: no reaction to them. I strongly advise my clients who
Speaker 4: are having this, and I speak too many every day,
Speaker 4: to block them on your phone. It is only going
Speaker 4: to make you ill, to trigger you, even if it's
Speaker 4: not them that's calling, even if you're feeling a little
Speaker 4: empowered because you ignored them to begin with, When your
Speaker 4: phone goes off, it could be them, so you're going
Speaker 4: to be triggered. It can ruin your day at work
Speaker 4: because you can just never get away from their control.
Speaker 4: They will use the family court to extend the domestic violence.
Speaker 4: They will weaponize their lawyer to punish you. The children
Speaker 4: just collateral damage, to punish you for being able to
Speaker 4: heal and not pining for them and begging them to
Speaker 4: come back when you block them. If there's an emergency,
Speaker 4: here's my mother's number, here's my best friend's number, here's
Speaker 4: my partner's number. Here's a parenting app. So you've got
Speaker 4: your parenting app where you're recording all of their communication,
Speaker 4: which I believe goes straight to the court, and they've
Speaker 4: got an emergency contact number. If it's just about the children,
Speaker 4: why should it matter? But it will.
Speaker 2: How as the healthy and safe parent, do you either
Speaker 2: communicate what's happening in terms of the other parent that
Speaker 2: communicate that it is narcissism that you're dealing with, or
Speaker 2: do you just have to try and not address it
Speaker 2: so that way, I guess turn in one parent you're not,
Speaker 2: because otherwise you're almost playing into the game as well
Speaker 2: if you start calling the other parent a narcissist and
Speaker 2: name calling, like, how do you be the bigger person
Speaker 2: whilst navigating this relationship with someone who is a narcissist.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a precarious place to be because the narcissist
Speaker 4: is going to be doing what narcissists do. They lie
Speaker 4: and they manipulate, and they're going to be doing that
Speaker 4: to their children. And this is the painful reality for
Speaker 4: parents who share children with a toxic X. So I
Speaker 4: think it's incredibly important, even at a very very young age,
Speaker 4: to get those children into counseling where they have someone
Speaker 4: who is seen not to have an agenda, because children
Speaker 4: don't grow to hate the parent, especially when they're quite little,
Speaker 4: when they're abused, they grow to hate themselves. So as
Speaker 4: you said, we don't want them to think where like that.
Speaker 4: We don't want so we don't never speak in a
Speaker 4: derogatory way about the other parent, which puts such a
Speaker 4: lot of pressure on the child's shoulders. So yes, get
Speaker 4: them into counseling and just be an empathic ear for
Speaker 4: that child where they can come and offload and be
Speaker 4: there to pick up the p pieces, allow them to
Speaker 4: talk to you. But I think having a household that's
Speaker 4: completely different from the other parents, where they don't have
Speaker 4: to walk on eggshells, they can experience a little bit
Speaker 4: of a break.
Speaker 2: I can only imagine how hard it would be for
Speaker 2: parents to kind of navigate this because on one hand,
Speaker 2: you would want to explain to your kids what it
Speaker 2: is that you're dealing with and what they're dealing with.
Speaker 2: But also on the other side of that is the
Speaker 2: very very precarious situation where you then are weaponizing a
Speaker 2: situation and you're in no way is that and then
Speaker 2: make you the narcissist. But it is such a tricky
Speaker 2: situation where you want to protect children but also give
Speaker 2: them enough information that they are safe from the environment
Speaker 2: that they have to be put into.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and once again, I think it gets back to
Speaker 4: having someone who was not seen as having an agenda,
Speaker 4: having a third party they trust, because that narcissistic parent
Speaker 4: is going to hear everything you see. He or she
Speaker 4: will manipulate it out of the children that will be
Speaker 4: us to report back every time they've come home from
Speaker 4: your house, and they're going to distort it, so you
Speaker 4: will be seen as that person who has an agenda.
Speaker 4: Of course, of course they don't like the other parent
Speaker 4: that mum and dad are fighting, so of course he's
Speaker 4: not going to say anything nice. So yeah, I think
Speaker 4: it's really important to get someone they trust that's just
Speaker 4: there for them. Nova.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. For coming and being a part
Speaker 2: of the podcast and sharing with us this second part
Speaker 2: of dealing with the narcissist in your life. And I know,
Speaker 2: like we said, we had so many questions around how
Speaker 2: to deal with it when it is a family member.
Speaker 2: I think it is so much more complex and the
Speaker 2: layers of it run so much deeper than just in
Speaker 2: a romantic relationship, which is already hard enough as it is.
Speaker 2: But we appreciate your time, and we appreciate your expertise.
Speaker 2: And if anybody wants to get Nova's book, it is
Speaker 2: called Fake Love, and it really does deep dive into
Speaker 2: all these different types of relationships and how to overcome
Speaker 2: narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 4: Look, thank you so much for having me. It's always
Speaker 4: a pleasure, and if anyone benefits from my knowledge out there,
Speaker 4: then it's all worth it because it's such an insidious
Speaker 4: type of abuse that we often don't see and there's
Speaker 4: just not enough support or awareness out there. So I'm
Speaker 4: just so happy that you've asked me to be a
Speaker 4: part of your podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks Nova,