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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 3: Now, we seem to let a lot of things fly

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Speaker 3: in our house that we would never accept anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the author of six

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Speaker 3: books about making our families happy.

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Speaker 1: I'm here with my wife Mum to our six kids.

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Speaker 3: Kylie, my podcast partner and co host.

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Speaker 2: We just love getting feedback, and we've had some really

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Speaker 2: great feedback come in lately.

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Speaker 3: Five star review Apple podcasts so simple to write those.

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Speaker 1: Reviews, Thank you so much for sending them through.

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Speaker 2: We've had some great feedback from AMC zero one, who

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Speaker 2: says great parenting tips for busy people. I have only

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Speaker 2: just discovered this podcast, but have loved all the episodes

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Speaker 2: I've listened to so far.

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Speaker 4: I love that the episodes are so short.

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Speaker 2: I can listen to a whole episode without being interrupted

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Speaker 2: and then apply the tips straight away to my.

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Speaker 3: Parenting as soon as they come over and realize you're

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Speaker 3: listening and they could interrupt.

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Speaker 1: You, but you've already finished. Isn't that great?

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Speaker 3: We love those five star reviews. Thank you very much

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Speaker 3: a mco one. Please send in your feedback to podcasts

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Speaker 3: at Happy Families dot com dot a you or, better yet,

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Speaker 3: jump onto Apple Podcasts and tell us what you think.

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Speaker 3: Tell everyone what you think so that other people can

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Speaker 3: find the podcast. A big topic today because we've got

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Speaker 3: a webinar tonight. If you're a Happy Family's member, this

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Speaker 3: webinar is included in your membership. We do one every

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Speaker 3: single month, guaranteed, that's included in the membership.

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Speaker 1: And this one, we've had so many.

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Speaker 3: Requests basically, how do we get the kids to get

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Speaker 3: along and actually be kind to each other? Not just

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Speaker 3: how do we stop them fighting, but how do we

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Speaker 3: get them to actually like each other?

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Speaker 4: This is so tricky. Have we got any answers for

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Speaker 4: this one?

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Speaker 3: We have six kids who give lots of opportunities to

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Speaker 3: try different experiments on how to make this work. Did

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Speaker 3: you fight with you so you're the eldest of three girls,

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Speaker 3: at least within your nuclear family, because you had a

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Speaker 3: half sister as well, did you fight with your little sisters?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Look, this strikes a really sensitive chord with me because

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Speaker 2: I probably was just an awful big sister.

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Speaker 4: I have so many regrets when I think back to

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Speaker 4: how I treated them.

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Speaker 1: Really, yeah, what did you do?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Look, they just drove me crazy. They just wanted to

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Speaker 2: be in my space all the time. They wouldn't leave

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Speaker 2: me alone, they wanted to touch.

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Speaker 1: My stuff, they breathed my air. So you looked at

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Speaker 1: me the wrong way? Like I just so pretty much

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Speaker 1: everything everything.

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Speaker 2: I'm a very independent person, and I just really struggled

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Speaker 2: having a tag along with me all the time.

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Speaker 3: The fact that they existed was annoying, and that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it probably was. There's three years between you and your

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Speaker 3: next sister, there is, and then how many between her

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Speaker 3: and your another three years? Okay, so it's pretty and

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Speaker 3: it's almost exactly three years for each Yeah, okay, so

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Speaker 3: I was the worst big brother. I'm the oldest of

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Speaker 3: six kids. Myself, there's I mean, you know this, but

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Speaker 3: for people who are not familiar with me and the podcast,

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Speaker 3: there's me. Then I've got twin sisters four years younger

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Speaker 3: than me. Then I've got a little brother who is

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Speaker 3: nine years younger than me.

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Speaker 1: And then I've got twin.

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Speaker 3: Sisters again who are fifteen years younger than me. So

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Speaker 3: mom and Dad had boy, twin girls boy, twin girls

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Speaker 3: four five and six years apart or something crazy like that.

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Speaker 3: And I don't really know my littlest sisters that well,

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Speaker 3: there's fifteen years between us and I moved out. But man,

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Speaker 3: I was terrible to my twin sisters that are four

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Speaker 3: years younger, Like I was just not a very nice

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Speaker 3: big brother. And the research tells us that this is

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Speaker 3: sad but true. In fact, I came across some research,

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Speaker 3: some observational data that indicates that children fight with their

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Speaker 3: siblings up to eight times per hour.

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Speaker 4: Holy smile.

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Speaker 1: So you do the maths on that, there's sixteen.

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Speaker 4: Minutes six children in the houses. Just do the mass there. Oh,

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Speaker 4: my head's hurting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so when parents saying, oh, the kids are just

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Speaker 3: always fighting, they're always scrapping. There's always so much rivalry

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Speaker 3: going on, it's just over the top. My best research, though,

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Speaker 3: comes from our own children, and I've discovered that nothing

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Speaker 3: ignites sibling rivalry quite like buttons on an elevator.

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Speaker 2: There have been plenty rides in the elevator where we've

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Speaker 2: actually stopped it unnecessary flaws just to appease.

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Speaker 1: They just get in the middle. I want to push

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Speaker 1: that one where you can't. Well, they actually opened the door.

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Speaker 3: They remember that time we got into the elevator and

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Speaker 3: one of the kids wanted to close the elevator door,

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Speaker 3: and the other one wanted to do it as well,

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Speaker 3: and so one of them held it open while the

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Speaker 3: other one was trying to I mean, just this is

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Speaker 3: this is our life, folks, this is what we deal with.

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Speaker 3: I reckon that most of the time parents are not equipped.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I'm sort of saying that jokingly, but when

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Speaker 3: I looked through the research preparing for tonight's webinar on

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Speaker 3: how to teach our kids to get along and to

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Speaker 3: be kind to each other, what the research showed pretty

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Speaker 3: clearly is that parents need a skill set that we

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Speaker 3: don't like. You can't buy this skill set we need.

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Speaker 4: You need a PhD in kindness.

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Speaker 3: Well no, but you do need social skills. You do

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Speaker 3: need conflict management skills. You do need empathy. You do

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Speaker 3: need the ability to take another person's perspective even when

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Speaker 3: you're cranky. You do need excellent verbal skills. You do

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Speaker 3: need to be in control of yourself and have that

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Speaker 3: self control. Like, that's a big list of stuff that

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Speaker 3: you've got to be able to do while you try

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Speaker 3: to look after dinner, workout who's supposed to be at

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Speaker 3: swimming in twenty minutes, and find the flippers and the

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Speaker 3: goggles and whatever else they've lost, and deal with this

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Speaker 3: sibling conflict all at the same time. There's so much

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Speaker 3: going on, But as hard as it is to find

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Speaker 3: good solutions, my research has led me to sum and

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Speaker 3: that's what tonight is all about. After the break, I

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Speaker 3: want to give you a bit of a hint about

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Speaker 3: what some of those solutions that I found were.

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Speaker 1: It's a Happy Famili's podcast.

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Speaker 2: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 2: a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 3: Details at happy Families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: I'm always looking for new to stay connected with my

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Speaker 2: children while giving them the opportunity to have the same

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Speaker 2: level of freedom I enjoyed when I was their age.

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Speaker 1: Ah, those were the days.

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Speaker 3: The Space Talk Adventurer watch has given our daughter the

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Speaker 3: and we can also easily check in with her via

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Speaker 3: a phone call or a text message to her watch.

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Speaker 2: you can feel good that you're providing them with a

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Speaker 2: safe and secure device that lets kids be kids in

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Speaker 2: a modern world.

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Speaker 1: And that's why we love it.

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Speaker 3: Available at major retailers and online at space, talkwatch dot com.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for a time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we've

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Speaker 2: been talking about the bane of parents' lives, sibling rivalry.

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Speaker 2: This is just at the core I think of most

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Speaker 2: contention in anybody's home.

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Speaker 1: It's agonizing.

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Speaker 3: I remember one time one of the kids was fighting

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Speaker 3: with her sister and I said to her, you really

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Speaker 3: need to apologize to your sister for what you've done.

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Speaker 3: And she looked at me with this almost hatred in

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Speaker 3: her eyes.

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Speaker 1: She was like, you told me not to lie.

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh gosh, say you're sorry, but don't lie.

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Speaker 3: In fact, that was the moment when I realized that

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Speaker 3: forcing your children to apologize was actually a pretty lousy

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Speaker 3: parenting technique. And there's a real secret to apologies, which

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Speaker 3: I'll talk about tonight. But when I was looking through

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Speaker 3: all of the very best research and all the very

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Speaker 3: best articles that I could find on this sibling rivalry thing.

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Speaker 3: What I discovered is that the empirical research and even

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Speaker 3: the experts that are out there don't have a lot

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Speaker 3: to say on it because it's just such a hard challenge.

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Speaker 3: But what I also saw was we seem to let

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Speaker 3: a lot of things fly in our house that we

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Speaker 3: would never accept anywhere else. If kids treated each other

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Speaker 3: in the classroom the way they try at each other

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Speaker 3: at home, they'd be on detention, they'd be writing out lines,

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Speaker 3: they'd be letters getting sent home to parents, they'd be

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Speaker 3: all sorts of stuff going on. But in the home,

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Speaker 3: we seem to let this stuff happen. And I've kind

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Speaker 3: of got this feeling that if it's not okay, if

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Speaker 3: we want our children to learn how to have empathy

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Speaker 3: and resolve conflicts and do things well at school or

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Speaker 3: in public or down at the local park when they're

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Speaker 3: you know, one kid's going up the slide and the

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Speaker 3: other one wants to go down the slide, we need

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Speaker 3: to teach them that at home.

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Speaker 1: It actually has to start at home.

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Speaker 2: What's amazing to me is that most children can function

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Speaker 2: under those circumstances, and that when they're at school they

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Speaker 2: just know that there's a code of conduct, and they

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Speaker 2: accept that code of conduct, and then they come home

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Speaker 2: and it's like that code of conduct goes out the window.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: A recent New York Times article specifically on sibling rivalry

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Speaker 2: gave us a couple of suggestions about how we can

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Speaker 2: actually resolve this whole sibling rivalry.

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Speaker 3: But I didn't buy it. I was upset with the article.

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Speaker 3: I got cranky. I didn't think that was a good article.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So their first tip was to resuld by turn taking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: In other words, when the children are upset with each

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Speaker 3: other and they're having a fight with one another, sit

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Speaker 3: down and be the mediaty between them and say, okay,

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Speaker 3: you tell me what happened. Now, you tell me what happened,

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Speaker 3: and get them to take.

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Speaker 1: It in turns.

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Speaker 3: So, I mean, you've been a parent for twenty something

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Speaker 3: years now, can you see anything wrong with that advice?

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Speaker 4: I don't even need to be a parent.

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Speaker 2: I actually had an opportunity to do this as an adult,

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Speaker 2: and it actually just fueled the fire because each person

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Speaker 2: seems completely justified in the way they feel about something

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Speaker 2: and the way they feel mistreated, and so while ever

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Speaker 2: we're just wanting to share our side of the equation.

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Speaker 2: There's no understanding, there's no empathy being able to be offered.

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Speaker 2: We don't see each other side of the story because

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Speaker 2: we're so busy telling our own.

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Speaker 1: What happens is.

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Speaker 3: I'm sitting here waiting for you to finish talking so

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Speaker 3: that I can tell you all the reasons you're wrong.

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Speaker 3: I don't actually listen to you, and like you said,

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Speaker 3: there's no empathy. What I think they should have said is,

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Speaker 3: instead of getting the kids to resolve this issue by

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Speaker 3: turn taking, is you take it in turns, but do

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Speaker 3: it exactly the opposite way to what you've said. Instead

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Speaker 3: of saying what happened to you why you're feeling upset,

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Speaker 3: say to child number one, your sister seems really upset.

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Speaker 3: Why don't you tell me why she's upset?

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Speaker 4: Is a real perspective, taking.

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Speaker 3: Exactly let's stand in her shoes well, and then you

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Speaker 3: look at that little sister or that big brother whoever,

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Speaker 3: also say is that a good restatement of why you're

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Speaker 3: feeling so upset and why this went badly? And they're

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Speaker 3: going to say yes it is, and you say, well,

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Speaker 3: your sister or your brother seems upset, maybe you can

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Speaker 3: tell me why they feel the way they do. And

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Speaker 3: what happens then is the kids get out of what

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Speaker 3: I call bed blame, excuse and denial and they start

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Speaker 3: using their or that is their ownership, their accountability, their responsibility.

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Speaker 3: They have to take responsibility for the part they've played

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Speaker 3: in the conflict that they're now experiencing. So when you say,

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Speaker 3: why is you sister feeling that way, really they've got

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Speaker 3: to say, yeah, because I yelled at it all because

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Speaker 3: but I only did it because I just want to

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Speaker 3: know why you think they're feeling that way.

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Speaker 1: It's a really powerful, really.

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Speaker 3: Striking way to resolve that turn taking issue. So it

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Speaker 3: was the first one that I didn't like from the

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Speaker 3: New York Times, and I think there's a better way.

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Speaker 1: To do it.

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Speaker 2: So the next one they said was to actually praise

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Speaker 2: in public but punish in private.

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Speaker 1: What awful advice. And there's a few reasons for that.

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Speaker 3: First of all, let's say we go with the praising

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Speaker 3: in public, so we see the kids doing something we

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Speaker 3: really like and we praise them for it. And we've

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Speaker 3: got that amazing interview that we did with Elfie Cohne,

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Speaker 3: a couple of months ago that we're put in the

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Speaker 3: show notes about why we don't want to be praising

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Speaker 3: our kids. I've got a webinar about why we don't

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Speaker 3: want to be doing that in the Happy Families membership.

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Speaker 3: But imagine you're out with your sister and you hear

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Speaker 3: your mum or your dad call out and say, I

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Speaker 3: really love how you let your sister go first. So

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Speaker 3: as the big sister who just got the praise, how you're.

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Speaker 4: Feeling standing tall?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome.

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Speaker 3: And if you're the little sister who hear's big sister

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Speaker 3: getting praised for doing that, how are you feeling?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 2: I kind of wondering why you haven't anything nice about

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Speaker 2: me because I was really nice to her a minute ago,

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Speaker 2: but you didn't see that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So verbal rewards actually can sometimes put our children

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Speaker 3: in competition with each other. There's a whole lot of

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Speaker 3: other reasons that I think that it's concerning, and we

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Speaker 3: don't have time for that in this conversation, but I

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Speaker 3: just think it's lousy. The other part of this is,

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Speaker 3: you know, praise in public and punish in private. Why

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Speaker 3: do we where do we get this crazy idea that

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Speaker 3: punishing our children is going to help them to be better,

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Speaker 3: Like the research shows when you make children feel bad

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Speaker 3: about things, that doesn't help them to be good. When

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Speaker 3: you make your children feel lousy about life, that's hardly

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Speaker 3: going to set them up to be successful.

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Speaker 4: Can I play Devil's advocate at the minute?

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Speaker 1: I think the devil has enough advocates. But if you

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Speaker 1: want to give me an alternative view, I'm fine with that.

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Speaker 2: I obviously am not the person who wrote this, but

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering if what they're actually trying to suggest is

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Speaker 2: that when we have an altercation with our child, the

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Speaker 2: last thing we want to do is reprimand them or

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Speaker 2: challenge them or anything when they're surrounded by other people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So you know you never ever ever

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Speaker 1: do any kind of disciplining in front of a crowd.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so well, the words say punish in private. I

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Speaker 2: think we can take some really great advice from that

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Speaker 2: if we kind of look at a bigger picture in

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Speaker 2: that if my child needs some attention because they're doing

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Speaker 2: something that's wrong, me trying to correct that behavior in

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Speaker 2: front of everyone is going to be more damaging than

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Speaker 2: not correcting it at the moment, and so taking us

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Speaker 2: away from the situation is really important. But it's not

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Speaker 2: necessarily about doing it in private. It's about picking your

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Speaker 2: time so that you can have that one on one

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Speaker 2: space with your child.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, timing is really important when it comes to discipline,

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Speaker 3: and especially when it comes to sibling rivalry. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the reality is, if emotion's really high, your intelligence is

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Speaker 3: going to be pretty low. You're not going to resolve

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Speaker 3: things in the rational effective way that you might otherwise.

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Speaker 3: So timing is everything. Whether it's in public or whether

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Speaker 3: everyone's emotional, you've got to work through that. We're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about that and a whole lot more tonight

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Speaker 3: in the webinar. It's called Teaching Kids Kindness. You can

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Speaker 3: get all the information on Happy Families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 3: Just go to the shop, or you can visit our

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Speaker 3: Facebook page. That's doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families. Do you

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Speaker 3: remember that time when everything was really quiet and we

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Speaker 3: went up to one of the kids and said, hey,

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Speaker 3: where's your sister?

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Speaker 1: And she said playing hide and seek? Who with me?

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Speaker 1: You don't seem to be looking for them, No, I'm not.

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Speaker 3: And she just let her sister go off to hide

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Speaker 3: and hide and seek, And every now and again she'd

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Speaker 3: yell out, I'm still looking for you, make a noise

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Speaker 3: and one of.

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Speaker 2: Us sister go ah, I don't remember that, but I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't put it past any of them.

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Speaker 1: She was like, I don't worry, I'll find her once

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Speaker 1: my chapter's finished.

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Speaker 4: That's a good way to get some peace and quiet.

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Speaker 3: We really hope you enjoyed the podcast. We'd love for

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Speaker 3: you to join us on the webinar. To not Happy

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Speaker 3: Families members, it's yours as part of the membership. If

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Speaker 3: you're not a member, you can find out more information

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Speaker 3: at Happy families dot com. Dot you the take home

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Speaker 3: message real quick, let's go over it. What do we

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Speaker 3: learn about sibling rivalry from this? If you can't make

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Speaker 3: the webinar, and by the way it is being recorded,

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Speaker 3: see can watch the replay take home message.

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Speaker 2: The number one for me is perspective taking, encouraging our

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Speaker 2: kids to take someone else's perspective.

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Speaker 3: And for me, I reckon it's that as parents, we're

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Speaker 3: really ill equipped for this, so we've got to be

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Speaker 3: really thoughtful. We've got to be really intentional about making

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Speaker 3: sure that our conversations with our children are constructive and helpful.

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Speaker 3: We really hope you've enjoyed the podcast, Thanks so much

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Speaker 3: for listening. If you do, please leave those ratings and reviews.

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Speaker 3: Five stars is always good at Apple Podcasts. We appreciate that.

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Speaker 3: We also appreciate Justin Rulan from Bridge Media for doing

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Speaker 3: a great job in making the podcast sound fabulous, and

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Speaker 3: our executive producer as always is Craig Bruce. If you'd

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Speaker 3: like more and fo about how we can make your

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Speaker 3: family happier, please visit happyfamilies dot com dot a u