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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. I'm doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 1: Neurodivergent children can be very, very, very fussy when it

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Speaker 1: comes to eating. They'll have sensory issues, tend to like

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Speaker 1: foods that are yellow and white, and unfortunately, because there

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Speaker 1: are already so many challenges that we're dealing with with

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Speaker 1: neurodivergent kids, poor diet only.

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Speaker 2: Adds to it.

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Speaker 1: And yet hearing me say that only adds to the

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Speaker 1: weight that's on your shoulders and the complexity of life generally,

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Speaker 1: How do we navigate diet when it comes to kids

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Speaker 1: with neurodevelopmental challenges?

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Speaker 2: What do we do to get appropriate food into.

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Speaker 1: Them so that they can have the right energy and

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Speaker 1: also the right ability to focus and concentrate, regulate their

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Speaker 1: emotions and their behaviors effectively, as well as just having

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Speaker 1: good physical health. Today on the Happy Families Podcast, we

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Speaker 1: address how to feed neurodivergent kids when all they want

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Speaker 1: to do is eat pasta and hot chips. Stay with us,

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Real Parenting

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Speaker 1: Solutions every Day. This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 1: Regular guest on the pod somebody who knows much more

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Speaker 1: about food, diet, nutrition and healthy eating than most people

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Speaker 1: I know. Is Karina Savage. Karina is a pediatric dietitian

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Speaker 1: and runs the website Nourish with Karina dot com. Mum

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Speaker 1: of two kids joining me now to talk about neurodivergent

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Speaker 1: challenges when it comes to diet.

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Speaker 2: Nice to be with your.

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Speaker 3: Karina, Thank you, It's great to be here chatting with you.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the main nutrition issues for neurodivergent kids.

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Speaker 1: I've got a child who's autistic or ADHD or both,

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Speaker 1: probably has a bit of anxiety to boot and they

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Speaker 1: just won't eat anything except for the white stuff and

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Speaker 1: the yellow stuff, pasta, chips, cheese, chicken nuggets, maybe a

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Speaker 1: bit of white rice.

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Speaker 2: How does that sound about right?

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Speaker 3: About right? It certainly stresses parents out. And look, you know,

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Speaker 3: fuscky eating is common amongst all children, but we find

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Speaker 3: that with neurodivision children they're even more fussy and there's

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Speaker 3: more of a likelihood that they will be fussy or

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Speaker 3: very selective, very selective with their eating. And this can

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Speaker 3: create a lot of stress and worry for parents because

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Speaker 3: we're always taught, you know, what our children should be

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Speaker 3: eating that all the colors of the rainbow and all

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Speaker 3: the five food groups, but actually making it happen can

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Speaker 3: be really stressful for parents, and so this white die

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Speaker 3: is very, very common for children, especially neurodivigent children.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've sat in that seat.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm still sitting in it from time to time,

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Speaker 1: and we've been creative and patient and have worked extremely

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Speaker 1: hard to navigate it. I feel like we've done a

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Speaker 1: reasonable job. But not every parent has a PhD in

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Speaker 1: psychology and has written the books about parenting and all

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Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. So where do you normally start

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Speaker 1: When a family come sits down and says, we just

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Speaker 1: can't get this kid to eat.

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Speaker 2: Anything that would be quote unquote healthy.

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Speaker 1: They only want to eat really low value carbs.

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Speaker 3: It's really important to start with trying to address the

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Speaker 3: underlying root cause of the fussy eating and or the

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Speaker 3: selective intake the whites eye. And often with neurodivisent children,

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Speaker 3: sensory issues do play a significant role, whether it's to

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Speaker 3: do with how food is presented, whether it's the taste

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Speaker 3: of the food some kids prefer sour or salty, It

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Speaker 3: could be the texture. Often kids love the crunchy food

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Speaker 3: and there's a lot of factors that go into sensory issues,

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Speaker 3: which can be a big issue with children that are neurodivigent,

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Speaker 3: but also other factors to do with anxiety, food familiarity.

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Speaker 3: So it's understanding the root cause of why they're fussy

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Speaker 3: to start with, so that we can then put some

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Speaker 3: strategies in place to actually get them trying new foods.

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Speaker 3: But often we need to really lower our expectations as

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Speaker 3: parents to start where the child's at, because you can't

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Speaker 3: just expect them to eat, you know, the instagrama will

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Speaker 3: style lunch of those dinners, because it's just not realistic.

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Speaker 1: Your master chief does not really cut it when you've

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Speaker 1: got a neurodivergent child who's a little bit fussy. Let

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Speaker 1: me ask you a question around I'll just bring it

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Speaker 1: straight out. Spaghetti bolonnais right, it's pretty much a guaranteed

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Speaker 1: winner for every child every night of the week. How

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Speaker 1: many nights a week can my kids eat spaghetti bolonnies

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Speaker 1: before it starts to impact their health because we've had

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Speaker 1: to feed them a lot of spaghetti bolonnaise over the years,

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Speaker 1: and chicken nuggets.

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Speaker 2: Let's be honest, Well, look.

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Speaker 3: If they will eat spaghetti bolinnaise. I'm not fuss if

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Speaker 3: they're eating it every night of the week if you

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Speaker 3: can get a balance of those food groups into them,

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Speaker 3: because that is a meal that often you can hide

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Speaker 3: a lot of veggies. Yes, I thought, you've got the veggies,

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Speaker 3: you've got the protein, you've got the carbs, which and

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Speaker 3: the past is actually slow release. So pasta is one

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Speaker 3: of the best white foods you can eat, so it's

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Speaker 3: not a problem. I think the most important thing is

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Speaker 3: that we are also giving them addition or what I

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Speaker 3: call test foods, which will help to stretch them over time,

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Speaker 3: but this could take months and years. But building that

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Speaker 3: familiarity and trust in other foods whilst we're giving them

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Speaker 3: there food is really.

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Speaker 2: The way to go, all right.

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Speaker 1: So I want to talk about strategy in just a

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Speaker 1: sec but before we do so, just one really important question.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that as parents we're making too big

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Speaker 1: of a deal of the impact of a diet that

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Speaker 1: is not what I would considered ideal? Okay, so it's

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Speaker 1: not particularly colorful, there's not a whole lot of variety.

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Speaker 1: Are we short changing our children's health? Are they going

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Speaker 1: to end up with stunted growth? Is their brain function

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Speaker 1: going to be attenuated. Is it going to be deleterious

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Speaker 1: to their overall well being if they're not getting good food.

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Speaker 3: It really depends on how restricted they are or how

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Speaker 3: white they're intake. Is because they see a lot of

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Speaker 3: children that eat no fruit or vegetables or eat you know,

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Speaker 3: all carbs, and when you're wiping out whole food groups,

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Speaker 3: absolutely there is a risk. So they've studied neurodivegent children

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Speaker 3: and they have found that this group of children are

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Speaker 3: at risk of key nutrient deficiency such as amigas or zinc,

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Speaker 3: lled B, or vitamin B or vitamin D or magnesium,

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Speaker 3: and these nutrients can impact emotional regulation, these nutrients can

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Speaker 3: impact gut health, and they've linked some of these nutrient

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Speaker 3: deficiencies to learning difficulties and whatnot. And so in the

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Speaker 3: extreme cases of fussy eating and food restriction, then yes,

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Speaker 3: we do need to be worried and the impact on

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Speaker 3: their emotional regulation is real and their neurological function. But

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Speaker 3: if it's just a case of you know, they're just

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Speaker 3: not eating all the colors of the fruits and the vegetables,

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Speaker 3: and it's not much as much of a concern.

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Speaker 2: I'm really glad that you clarified that.

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Speaker 1: I found that with my kids, we really do see

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Speaker 1: their capacity for physical activity, their emotion regulation, and even

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Speaker 1: their willingness to their ability to sit down, focus and

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Speaker 1: concentrate and get stuff done is really affected by their diet.

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Speaker 2: It seems to really have an impact.

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Speaker 1: So after the break, let's have a chat about what

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Speaker 1: we can do in terms of strategies to start improving

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Speaker 1: our kids' nutrition so that they can and flourish, since obviously.

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Speaker 2: This is a thing.

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Speaker 1: Talking with Corina Savage. Karina is a pediatric dietitian, runs

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Speaker 1: the website Nourish with Karina dot com and has become

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite go to people for all things

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Speaker 1: diet related when it comes to helping our kids to

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Speaker 1: be healthy. Karina, if I'm dealing with a neurodivergent child

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Speaker 1: sensory issues are really fussy and picky around what foods

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Speaker 1: go into his or her mouth and just loves that

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Speaker 1: white rice and cheese and a bit of pasta, what

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Speaker 1: are the strategies that you would typically work on with

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Speaker 1: parents to improve their nutrition. For example, I heard you

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Speaker 1: say before with spaghetti bon as that you can also

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Speaker 1: put some I think you use the word test foods

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Speaker 1: alongside it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So my strategy there would be to list

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Speaker 3: the safe foods that your child has, and that is

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Speaker 3: the food that appeal to them for whatever reason, whether

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Speaker 3: it's they're familiar with the food, whether it depends on

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Speaker 3: their sensory preferences. So often children love things that are

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Speaker 3: crunchy or love things that are salty, So we have

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Speaker 3: to really be into what foods are in their sort

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Speaker 3: of safe category based on their sensory preferences or what

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Speaker 3: they are familiar with, and then we try to put

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Speaker 3: some little test foods on the side, but often they

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Speaker 3: can't be touching. Sometimes they can't even be on the

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Speaker 3: same plate. I'm not sure if you've done that with

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Speaker 3: your daughter, but trying to keep them safe and separate

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Speaker 3: is important so that children don't have a heightened sense

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Speaker 3: of anxiety in meal times, because as soon as we

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Speaker 3: elevate their anxiety, we put them into fight off white

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Speaker 3: mode and then they can't even comprehense frying with them

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Speaker 3: to try a new food, and they're often the whole

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Speaker 3: meal is sabotage. So we really need to be mindful

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Speaker 3: of how we approach meal times with children, especially that

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Speaker 3: are super fussy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny how if the food just looks wrong,

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Speaker 1: or if if it's food that they like but you've

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Speaker 1: added one thing to it it it can set everything off.

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Speaker 1: Nata Yeah yeah, yeah. Let me run a couple of

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Speaker 1: things by you that we've also found really effective with

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Speaker 1: our kids. What we've often done is we'll just put

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Speaker 1: a platter out and we'll say, while you're playing this

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Speaker 1: game or while you're reading this book, while you're doing

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Speaker 1: that thing, we'd like you to eat what's on the plate.

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Speaker 1: And we usually give them a whole lot of foods.

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Speaker 2: You use the term safe.

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Speaker 1: I kind of feel like we're overpathologizing food when we

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Speaker 1: keep on talking about this idea that I get the

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Speaker 1: idea behind it.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's wrong.

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Speaker 1: I'd rather just talk about foods that kids really enjoy eating,

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Speaker 1: and then foods that they're not quite so familiar with,

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Speaker 1: and we just sort of say, there's a couple of

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Speaker 1: things on here that you haven't had before. We'd like

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Speaker 1: you to try it while you're having all the other

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Speaker 1: foods that you do like. So, like the other week,

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Speaker 1: we put some radish, some sliced radish on the plate,

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Speaker 1: with some other foods that we know that our daughter eats,

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Speaker 1: and she ate it, and at the end of it

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Speaker 1: she said, yeah, I didn't really like it, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

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Speaker 2: And we're kind of.

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Speaker 1: Going, yeah, all right, this is a win. But generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: we'll just put the fruit and veggies on. We actually

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Speaker 1: make it really colorful. We let her play with it

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Speaker 1: and design it however she wants. Sometimes we do faces

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Speaker 1: and things. And we found over the last year or so,

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Speaker 1: as we've really emphasized that she's got agency over what

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Speaker 1: she's eating. The plates there she gets to choose at

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Speaker 1: what speed she eats it, in what environment she eats it,

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Speaker 1: we've just found that she's happy to eat pretty much

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Speaker 1: anything like well, actually not anything. No, No, that's going

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Speaker 1: too far. There's still a lot that she won't eed.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot that was overstating it, but certainly she's

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Speaker 1: become a lot more open to eating foods and it.

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Speaker 2: Just sort of has to fit with her.

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Speaker 1: I guess autonomy is the keyword here, Like, she still

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Speaker 1: won't sit down and eat my prawn pesto pasta that

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Speaker 1: is just my specialty. A little bit of garlic and

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Speaker 1: chili on the prawns and some zucchini threaded through the pasta.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: She won't need that. Yeah, I know, that's what I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking too. She won't touch it, she won't need anything avocado.

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Speaker 1: There's a million billion things that she won't.

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Speaker 2: Eat, but food rules.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but we are finding that when we set it

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Speaker 1: out like that, we can get more colors on the plate,

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Speaker 1: more colors into her body, and she's taking her time

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Speaker 1: eating it while she's doing another activity that she's sort

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Speaker 1: of focused on, and it gets us there. It's not ideal,

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Speaker 1: it's not the way we want it to be, but

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Speaker 1: it gets us there and she's eating. What if I

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Speaker 1: said that's right?

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Speaker 2: What have I said that's wrong?

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Speaker 1: How would you change it? And what else would you suggest?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? No, you're doing all the right things. And this

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Speaker 3: is why it's working because food play in a non

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Speaker 3: pressurized environment build familiarity and trust and it helps with autonomy.

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Speaker 3: They become empowered. They get to choose same thing you

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Speaker 3: could do with sorting nuts out, you know, little opportunities

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Speaker 3: peeling peas, peeling peanuts where they're not forced to eat

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Speaker 3: or not even encouraged to eat. It's just you know

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Speaker 3: here it is have a go. I mean, it's great

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Speaker 3: if you will eat, if you say, you know a

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Speaker 3: pick out its as you're playing. But there's I think

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Speaker 3: the important thing to note here is there's no pressure,

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Speaker 3: and there's a lot of exposure of a variety of foods,

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Speaker 3: foods that they're both familiar with and havey to eat,

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Speaker 3: and foods that are slightly out of their comfort zone

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Speaker 3: but are there for them to give it a go.

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Speaker 3: And those opportunities over the days, in the weeks and

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Speaker 3: the months all ad up, especially if they're also seeing

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Speaker 3: you eat these foods, you know, at certain times as well.

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Speaker 3: So that's really powerful that you're also eating these foods

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Speaker 3: because when she sees you eating and enjoying these foods,

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Speaker 3: that also helps to build that familiarity and.

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Speaker 2: Trust in that food.

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Speaker 1: All Right, So, Karina, we've covered off fairbit in a

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Speaker 1: very short period of time. Let's pull it down to

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Speaker 1: three key rules. What are the three key rules or

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Speaker 1: strategies or tactics or approaches that we could take to

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Speaker 1: help our neurodivergent kids, well, just picky eaters generally, to

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Speaker 1: get that variety.

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Speaker 2: And that color and that flavor into their mouths.

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Speaker 3: So understand where the challenges currently are and work from there.

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Speaker 3: Number two, try to offer food play in a non

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Speaker 3: pressurized environment and encourage small changes done consistently over time. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, moving from white to home will if we

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Speaker 3: can increase fiber and reduce fast sugars, small little changes

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Speaker 3: unconsistently will make it a big difference. The third thing

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Speaker 3: I would say would be to watch the packet food

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Speaker 3: because there's a whole lot of evidence around food colors

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Speaker 3: especially and some preservatives and the impact on neurodivegent children

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Speaker 3: and their attention and their behavior. So processed foods and

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Speaker 3: we haven't even talked about that, but that's another one

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Speaker 3: that we really need to be mindful of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they just love that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Will wrap it up there and maybe we can do

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Speaker 1: that another time. Credit Savage is a pediatric dietitian. Nourished

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Speaker 1: with Karina dot com is the website. You've got a

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Speaker 1: membership there as well, am I writing record?

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Speaker 2: Yes I do.

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Speaker 3: You can find out a lot of that information on

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Speaker 3: my website.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Okay, Nourish with Koreina dot com. We'll link to

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Speaker 1: that in the show notes. Koreinna I always enjoy our

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Speaker 1: chats and always feel like I'm picking up useful hints

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Speaker 1: and tips. So hopefully this has been really valuable for

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Speaker 1: so many parents.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for the chat, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Mim Hammond's provides additional research and admin support.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like more information to make your family happier,

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Speaker 1: visit us at happy families dot com dot a u