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Speaker 1: The government earlier this week released the Darwen Catherine Electricity

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Speaker 1: System Plan, part of their plan to transition to what

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Speaker 1: the government says will be affordable, reliable, cleaner and secure energy.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line to tell us more

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Speaker 1: about this is the Minister for Energy and Renewables, Evil Lawla.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to your minister.

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Speaker 3: Good morning Katie.

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Speaker 2: Now, Minister.

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Speaker 1: The system plan provides a pathway to generate fifty percent

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Speaker 1: renewable energy by twenty thirty in the Darwin Catherine Electricity system.

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Speaker 1: It's also aimed at cutting those emissions obviously, as we

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Speaker 1: know in half, I'd imagine there needs to be power

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Speaker 1: infrastructure upgrades and some changes to the system to enable

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Speaker 1: this to happen.

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Speaker 2: Is that the case?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So the plan has three stages already in

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Speaker 3: a set and then a go stage, but it then

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Speaker 3: has also six key areas that we need to do

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Speaker 3: work in and so it does, as you said, provide

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Speaker 3: that pathway for power and water territory generation to KARA,

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Speaker 3: but then also the private sector as well. So it

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Speaker 3: talks about out how do we increase the solar PV

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Speaker 3: on rooftops, how do we get more investment into the

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Speaker 3: large scale solar farms, and so one of the first

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Speaker 3: actions is about having a renewable energy hub out from

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Speaker 3: Channel Island there and that would be a place where

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Speaker 3: the solar farms would be focused. It talks then about

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Speaker 3: the battery storage, because you need to make sure there's

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Speaker 3: stability in the grid. We've got a large best battery

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Speaker 3: energy storage system that's about to go to procurement about

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Speaker 3: to be announced, but we'll need to look at another

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Speaker 3: battery probably in about twenty twenty four. So it maps

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Speaker 3: those sorts of things. It talks about virtual power plants,

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Speaker 3: that talks about managing demand as well. So it provides

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Speaker 3: a clear pathway and it provides those signals to the

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Speaker 3: private sector as well as our gogs around what needs

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Speaker 3: to happen when.

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Speaker 1: And I guess, you know, I don't think there'd be

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Speaker 1: many people out there listening who wouldn't want us to

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Speaker 1: go down this path. I mean, everybody wants to get

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Speaker 1: to the where we are certainly fifty percent renewable energy

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Speaker 1: by twenty thirty. But I suppose even for me hearing

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Speaker 1: what you're saying this morning, I'm thinking, how much is

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Speaker 1: it going to cost? Are we relying on on you know,

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Speaker 1: like private investment or is it money that the government's

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Speaker 1: going to need to fork out when you talk about

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Speaker 1: that battery storage and various other things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, O, Katie. The good thing about it so if

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Speaker 3: we too go to the battery storage the best, that's

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Speaker 3: about a thirty million dollar cost, but it's already been

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Speaker 3: worked out that that the savings through the price of

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Speaker 3: gas and also the price of the maintenance of the machinery,

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Speaker 3: that the best will pay itself off within five years.

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Speaker 3: And so when we talk about the solar plan that

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Speaker 3: this plan is actually dynamic. It's going to be reviewed

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Speaker 3: every two years because the costs are shifting very quickly.

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Speaker 3: So when you look at the price of solar panels,

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Speaker 3: when you look at the price of batteries, you know

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Speaker 3: things are moving very quickly in those areas. So you

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Speaker 3: know we also in this plan there is still thermal generation,

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Speaker 3: so there is still the need to have gas fired

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Speaker 3: power stations or gas fire generators. But one of the

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Speaker 3: issues in the plan is making sure that as we

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Speaker 3: replace those thermal generators at TGen at Channel Island, that

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Speaker 3: we bring in these smaller, agile plants that can come

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Speaker 3: on very quickly. So there are savings around that, so

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Speaker 3: you're not running the big machines, you know, twenty four

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Speaker 3: to seven, you'll have these small machines that can come

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Speaker 3: in and out as need as the demand changes, say

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Speaker 3: of an evening or you know, when there's when there's

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Speaker 3: cloud cover and things, So you need to be agile

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Speaker 3: around that. So yeah, the modeling and the modeling looks

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Speaker 3: at three different scenarios around how well it's taken up,

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Speaker 3: but it does look to at least thirty million dollars

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Speaker 3: saving by twenty thirty.

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Speaker 1: Are we still going to be paying for that gas though,

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Speaker 1: because as I understand, there used to be and I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure if it's still in place that deal with

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Speaker 1: Black Tips to be getting that back up gas. So

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Speaker 1: is that still in place? And when does that run out?

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Speaker 3: That runs out? I think it's twenty forty, twenty thirty

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Speaker 3: two or something. I'm just trying to remember. I think

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Speaker 3: it might be twenty thirty two that the n E

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Speaker 3: contract runs out. And so that's one of the assumptions

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Speaker 3: that and we're seeing that already. So Power and Water

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Speaker 3: are able to first of all sell the gas, and

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Speaker 3: they have been doing that. They've been selling gas to

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Speaker 3: interstate manufacturers and they've been doing that for a while.

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Speaker 3: We also want that thirty the forty billion economy by

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Speaker 3: twenty thirty, so we want manufacturing in that middle arm

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Speaker 3: sustainability precinct. So there's opportunities for Power and Water to

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Speaker 3: sell gas for manufacturing there as well. But the bottom

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Speaker 3: line is also we still need We will still need

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Speaker 3: fifty percent of the gas at least till twenty thirty

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Speaker 3: unless those timelines change. So Power and Water have been

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Speaker 3: able to sell and utilize all the gas in the

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Speaker 3: last financial year. So yeah, I don't think it's such

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Speaker 3: an issue that people are concerned about because there are

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Speaker 3: options about selling gas into state. There are options around manufacturing.

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Speaker 3: That's what we want to do with our gas, so

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Speaker 3: there are options around the gas. It won't be a

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Speaker 3: stranded asset now, Minister. I know.

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Speaker 1: Last week, Sky News obtained a copy of a report

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Speaker 1: commissioned by the government back in twenty nineteen on achieving

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Speaker 1: the renewable Energy Target. The report contained some serious warnings

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Speaker 1: about the practical and financial implications of that renewable target,

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Speaker 1: and the economists modeling showed that taxpayers were going to

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Speaker 1: be slugged between twenty five million and twenty nine million

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Speaker 1: more in twenty thirty for their electricity. Is that still

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Speaker 1: the case and how is it going to be managed?

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Speaker 2: Is it going to be something that.

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Speaker 1: Taxpayers have to pay more on their bill or is

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Speaker 1: it going to be subsidized?

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Speaker 2: What's the situation here?

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Speaker 3: So Houston Kemp, that Houston Kemp report. That report was

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Speaker 3: April twenty nineteen, so nearly three years ago. There was

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Speaker 3: a point in time report. As I said, this is

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Speaker 3: the plan now that we have and Houston Kemp made

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Speaker 3: a number of assumptions. Some of those assumptions aren't relevant now.

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Speaker 3: So obviously we've had COVID during that time, so we've

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Speaker 3: had our Tersey report, which wants to you know, and

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Speaker 3: we are working absolutely. Every agency's focused on that forty

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Speaker 3: billion dollar economy by twenty thirty, which, as I said,

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Speaker 3: has a very strong focus on manufacturing. And you're hearing

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Speaker 3: that language around the federal government now, even the labor

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Speaker 3: opposition talking about we need to bake things in Australia.

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Speaker 3: We need to do those things. So to be able

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Speaker 3: to do that you need electricity. And so there were

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Speaker 3: a number, as I said, a number of assumptions around

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Speaker 3: Houston kemp that aren't relevant now and this so the

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Speaker 3: gas is one of them that they talked about, and

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Speaker 3: as I said, we think there's lots of opportunities for

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Speaker 3: the gas that we have. And the other one is

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Speaker 3: this is a focus on renewable energy hubs, which wasn't

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Speaker 3: something that was talked about in twenty nineteen. So New

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Speaker 3: South Wales, if you look at their energy plan, they

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Speaker 3: are talking about renewable energy zones and how that will

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Speaker 3: bring down the cost of producing renewable power. And so

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Speaker 3: that's one of the strategies on the Darn Catherine is

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Speaker 3: to have this renewable energy hub. So yeah, Houston Kent

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Speaker 3: was valuable at the time, but as I said, since then,

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Speaker 3: we've moved on and we have our plan now. The

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Speaker 3: plan is available online for people to be able to

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Speaker 3: go and have a good read. Because I'm really just

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Speaker 3: skimming over the surface. It does provide all the data,

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Speaker 3: all the details and how we get to all the

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Speaker 3: costings in that plan, So have a look online.

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Speaker 1: I guess fundamentally what people listening might be wondering though,

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Speaker 1: is it going to cost more on their power bill

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Speaker 1: for us to get to fifty percent renewables by twenty thirty.

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Speaker 1: What can you say to those out there listening this

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Speaker 1: morning who are worried that it could cost them more

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Speaker 1: in their hip pocket as we get closer to that

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty target.

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Speaker 3: Well, first and foremost, one in six territorians have Solopeva

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Speaker 3: on their rooftops already, and so those people and you

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Speaker 3: know your listeners can ring in and talk about their

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Speaker 3: power bills. Those people have low or very or non

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Speaker 3: existent power bills now. So we have the Home and

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Speaker 3: Business Battery Scheme that's continuing, so that provides support for

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Speaker 3: people to be able to have solo PV on their rooftop.

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Speaker 3: And as I said, we want to see more doing that.

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Speaker 3: Part of this plan also in the work that we're

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Speaker 3: doing is how do we look at, for example, people

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Speaker 3: who rent or people who are in public housing who

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Speaker 3: may not be able to access solar PV because you know,

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Speaker 3: there's limitations, or their landlords or whatever choose or have

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Speaker 3: chosen not to. So we're talking about community batteries as well.

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Speaker 3: So there's a project in Ala Springs as part of

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Speaker 3: their future grid because this is a Dar and Catherine plan,

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Speaker 3: but there is also a plan being developed our of

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Speaker 3: Springs but there's also about then, so that one of

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Speaker 3: their key projects out of their five projects there is

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Speaker 3: how can you put in a community battery, So there

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Speaker 3: would be so somebody would have solar PV on their

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Speaker 3: rooftop and that could be in public housing and then

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Speaker 3: they instead of having to have eight batteries in every household,

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Speaker 3: there could be a community battery that they link into.

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Speaker 3: So it is about making sure that Territorians have affordable power.

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Speaker 3: We know that they want to have a cleaner, greener

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Speaker 3: power into the future. So yeah, absolutely this is the

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Speaker 3: focus of government to make sure that Territorians have cheaper

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Speaker 3: power into the future, more affordable powers.

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Speaker 1: So you are ruling out any power price increase as

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Speaker 1: a result of trying to reach these targets by twenty thirty.

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Speaker 3: Well, Katie, I probably won't be the Minister for Renewables

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Speaker 3: in twenty thirty, but as I said, this plan shows

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Speaker 3: a thirty million dollar reduction then, And as I said,

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Speaker 3: I think the colp were the ones that tried to

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Speaker 3: put up power by thirty percent and realized how bad

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Speaker 3: that was to them. So I think governments are very

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Speaker 3: sensible and very careful about power pricing in the Northern territory.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about this hydrogen plan that's also

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Speaker 1: been released. What's it going to mean for the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: I know that we've got an abundance of sun and

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Speaker 1: also water. Here are we going down more the water

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Speaker 1: based hydrogen or gas?

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Speaker 3: No, So this is definitely about This master plan is

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Speaker 3: a renewable hydrogen master plan, so you know, which we

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Speaker 3: call green hydrogen, which has zero greenhouse gas emissions, and

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Speaker 3: so we want to be a leader. We want to

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Speaker 3: be at the forefront of developing a renewable hydrogen industry

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Speaker 3: and it is very early stages. So we're at what

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Speaker 3: we're calling the demonstration stage, which is you know, we're

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Speaker 3: working about research. We're looking at what are the possibilities

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Speaker 3: going forward. So you know, we think that we have

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Speaker 3: as you say, we have high solar radiance, we have

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Speaker 3: a close proximity to the export markets. We think that

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Speaker 3: we have large areas of land, as I said, the

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Speaker 3: opportunities for solace. So we think it can be similar

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Speaker 3: to our LNG industry, which is about a three point

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Speaker 3: seven billion dollar industry. But you know, it is about export,

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Speaker 3: but it is also about again cheap power for Territorians.

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Speaker 3: So there is a trial already happening in Tenant Creek.

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Speaker 3: So erm is a company that's being able to and

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Speaker 3: this is quite amazing technology, but extract out of the atmosphere,

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Speaker 3: extract moisture to produce water to then as I said,

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Speaker 3: get to hydrogen. And they're doing a hydrogen trial at

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Speaker 3: Tenincreete power Station. So it's a pilot there, which is

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Speaker 3: as I said, quite amazing to think that they're being

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Speaker 3: able to access water that way. And so it is

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Speaker 3: about and that's part of our electricity down cap and

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Speaker 3: electricity plan is making sure those generators that we're replacing

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Speaker 3: at TGen are small, agile, quick start generators, but they

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Speaker 3: are also they are also being able to take hydrogen

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Speaker 3: as well, so you're a hydrogen gas blend. So it

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Speaker 3: is important the hydrogen industry for the territory but also

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Speaker 3: long term as a great export industry too.

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Speaker 1: Now I mean Astro, I know we're fast running out

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Speaker 1: of time, as are you. I do want to ask

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Speaker 1: though obviously a Lee point. It's a point of contention,

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Speaker 1: it has been for a little while now, but Council Alderman,

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Speaker 1: Rebecca want to Row and Alderman justin Glover fighting against

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Speaker 1: the development. We heard from Justin Glover just last week

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Speaker 1: about this is mont de Roh is calling for the

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Speaker 1: Council to write to you asking to freeze that construction

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Speaker 1: until the NT Planning Commission completes a thorough area plan Minister.

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Speaker 2: Is it too far gone now?

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Speaker 1: I mean this has been on the cards for such

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Speaker 1: a long period of time, hasn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is actually too far gone, as Katie, it's so.

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Speaker 3: First of all, this development has followed all the right

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Speaker 3: processes through. So as I said, there was the Planning

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Speaker 3: Commission way back I think in twenty fifteen. That was

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Speaker 3: under a colp government, so you know we can talk

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Speaker 3: about it being done by a previous government, so it's

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Speaker 3: not a focus of one or the other. Planning commission

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Speaker 3: actually gets out there and makes sensible planning decisions by

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Speaker 3: talking to people. So there was the planning decisions were

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Speaker 3: made as I said, many years ago in the DCA

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Speaker 3: was involved. And the DCA is an independent It has

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Speaker 3: also two council reps on it for the for a start,

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Speaker 3: so both those councilors or aldermen were on the council

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Speaker 3: probably at the time that they had reps on the

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Speaker 3: DCA that made decisions about leepoint going ahead. It has

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Speaker 3: been through the EPA, Independent EPA and it has also

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Speaker 3: been through the Federal EPBC, so it has gone through

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Speaker 3: all of those processes that so to get the approval

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Speaker 3: for the subdivision. As a minister, I am not going

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Speaker 3: to start overturning decisions that are being made by independent

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Speaker 3: stature statutory boards, otherwise we will have chaos in the

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Speaker 3: Northern Territory. Otherwise, you know, every time somebody tries to

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Speaker 3: develop something, or the opposite developer gets doesn't get approval,

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Speaker 3: you would have a group of people that you know

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Speaker 3: then placard, yell, loudly complain and then think a decision

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Speaker 3: can be overturned. There would provide no confidence to developers.

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Speaker 3: It would provide no surety to environmental groups either. So

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Speaker 3: we do need to and that's clear governance and I

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Speaker 3: think both those counselors should understand around governance. When you

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Speaker 3: have independent staturgy boards that work through decisions, especially when

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Speaker 3: they have representatives on them, those decisions stand.

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Speaker 2: So Minister, it's a done deal. It is a done deal.

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Speaker 3: A done deal. It is a done deal. And there

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Speaker 3: are already people that have purchased blocks there. I can

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Speaker 3: understand people's concerns around that. Any development, any change that

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Speaker 3: we see in the territory, and it's not just in

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Speaker 3: the territory, it raises concerns and angst amongst people. But

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Speaker 3: this will be worked through. So you know, the monsoon

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Speaker 3: buying tickets, the shore birds, all of those things the

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Speaker 3: EPA looked at very carefully and will make sure as

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Speaker 3: I said, that those and will make sure that the

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Speaker 3: developers also adhere to those recommendations and what they need

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Speaker 3: to do well.

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Speaker 1: Minister for Energy and Renewables and also Planning evil Ula,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having a chat with us. Thank

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Speaker 2: you very much, Katie, thank you.

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Speaker 1: You are listening to mix one oh four point nine's

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Speaker 1: three sixty that number if you'd like to call through

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Speaker 1: this morning eight nine four one one oh four nine