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Speaker 1: Just a heads up. Today's episode contains some extremely distressing themes,

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Speaker 1: and I want to make sure that listeners know that

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Speaker 1: those themes will be discussed pretty much as soon as

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Speaker 1: we get started on the podcast that includes distressing themes

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Speaker 1: child sexual abuse, suicide. If you're not feeling up to

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Speaker 1: it today, please feel free to skip this episode. There

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Speaker 1: are some links in the show notes to resources, including

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Speaker 1: one eight hundred Respect Lifeline is available twenty four to

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Speaker 1: seven on thirteen eleven fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Already and this this is the Daily This is the

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Speaker 2: Daily OS.

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Speaker 1: Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Daily OS. It's Monday, the twenty fourth of February.

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Speaker 2: I'm Emma, I'm Zara.

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Speaker 1: Last year, the story of a French rape case and

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Speaker 1: the woman at its center, Giselle Pelico, captured global attention.

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Speaker 1: Men including her ex husband, were found guilty of varying

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Speaker 1: charges including rape, attempted rape, and sexual assault. Now, just

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Speaker 1: months after that shocking case concluded, another French case is

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Speaker 1: in the spotlight, with the country's largest child sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: trial set to begin this week.

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Speaker 2: So, and before you mentioned this trial in the office,

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Speaker 2: I have to be honest, I hadn't heard anything about it,

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Speaker 2: and it is so shocking and so unbelievable for people

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Speaker 2: like me who haven't heard anything about this. What do

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Speaker 2: we need to know about this case in fans?

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Speaker 1: Yes. So this week legal proceedings against a French surgeon

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Speaker 1: called Joel Lesquaranac will begin in the country's northwest. Now,

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Speaker 1: he is a seventy four year old accused of sexually

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Speaker 1: abusing some three hundred people, mostly children, often while they

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Speaker 1: were under anesthetic in a hospital. Lasquanac specialized in abdominal

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Speaker 1: and stomach surgery, but retired in twenty seventeen, and later

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Speaker 1: that year he was arrested and charged with raping two

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Speaker 1: of his nieces, as well as a six year old

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Speaker 1: girl and another young patient. During that investigation, police seized

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Speaker 1: child sized sex dolls and more than three hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: child abuse images from his house. Now, it was during

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Speaker 1: that search that another really important piece of evidence emerged,

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Speaker 1: which was twenty five years worth of his personal diaries.

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Speaker 1: So la Squanac lodged thousands of pages where he appeared

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Speaker 1: to describe in detail decades of assaults that he had

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Speaker 1: perpetrated against young patients. He also wrote several times in

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Speaker 1: those diaries. I am a pedophile. Lesquanac denied the charges

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Speaker 1: at the time, back in twenty seventeen, so there were

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Speaker 1: four rape charges and he said that the diary pages

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Speaker 1: were mere fantasies. However, in twenty twenty he was found

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Speaker 1: guilty of abusing all four children and sentenced to fifteen

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Speaker 1: years imprisonment.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot there. Yeah, As we said at the top,

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Speaker 2: it's extremely, extremely distressing, and I do just want to

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Speaker 2: again emphasize that if people listening to this are not

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Speaker 2: in the right headspace, to just stop now and come

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Speaker 2: back tomorrow, because this story actually does get worse, but

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Speaker 2: just to go back to what you were saying. So,

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Speaker 2: he's already serving time for child sexual abuse, but this

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Speaker 2: week's trial is a separate investigation. It relates to different allegations,

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Speaker 2: right exactly.

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Speaker 1: So a separate trial is due to start later today

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Speaker 1: in a court in Van Brittany, and that centers around

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Speaker 1: allegations that the squank assaulted or raped two hundred and

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Speaker 1: ninety nine patients between nineteen eighty nine and twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: Of the alleged victims, two hundred and fifty six were

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Speaker 1: under fifteen, including a one year old baby. The oldest

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Speaker 1: victim was aged seventy at the time of the alleged incident,

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Speaker 1: but prosecutors say the average age of these victims is

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Speaker 1: eleven years old. Now, the reason that I gave you

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Speaker 1: that previous context about the twenty seventeen investigation when he

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Speaker 1: was found guilty of the rape of those four children

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Speaker 1: is that the evidence uncovered during that investigation connected police

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Speaker 1: to this investigation. So police continued their inquiries after he

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Speaker 1: was convicted, suspecting that Lasquanac had perpetrated abuse against many,

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Speaker 1: many others, based on those twenty five years worth of

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Speaker 1: diary entries that I mentioned. So those diary entries included

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Speaker 1: the names of hundreds of victims, alleged victims, and hundreds

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Speaker 1: of dates, and that's where police started this investigation. So

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Speaker 1: they ended up gathering the testimonies of around three hundred

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Speaker 1: alleged victims, many of whom they discovered were patients of

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Speaker 1: Lusquanac when he was a surgeon, and that led to

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Speaker 1: more than one hundred rape charges and more than one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty of sexual assault to be brought against him.

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Speaker 2: You've spoken there about the fact that this man is

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Speaker 2: a retired surgeon, and that some of these claims center

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Speaker 2: around hospital settings, which you just brings another layer to

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Speaker 2: this extremely dense story. What can you tell me about

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Speaker 2: that aspect of the case.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so, of the two hundred and ninety nine alleged victims,

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Speaker 1: investigators claim that most were assaulted in around a dozen

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Speaker 1: or so different hospitals across France over a period of

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Speaker 1: fifteen years now. When this investigation was first made public

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Speaker 1: in late twenty twenty, French prosecutors said most of the

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Speaker 1: children were abused while they were under anesthetic or some

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Speaker 1: kind of sedative treatment. That includes assaults in operating rooms

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Speaker 1: and also assaults in hospital beds. The BBC spoke to

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Speaker 1: some of these former patients, who are now all adults,

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Speaker 1: and said they remember the surgeon quote touching them under

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Speaker 1: the guise of medical examinations, sometimes even when their parents

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Speaker 1: or other doctors were in the room. So I mentioned

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Speaker 1: that he had specialized in stomach and abdominal surgery and

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Speaker 1: so would conduct physical examinations pertaining to that, and that's

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Speaker 1: what this quote from the BBC kind of alludes to.

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Speaker 2: Hospitals are, you know, above all meant to be safe places,

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Speaker 2: but they're also quite public spaces. Has there been any discussion,

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Speaker 2: because I think this is what I can't quite get over,

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Speaker 2: how a surgeon could allegedly abuse patients over such a

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Speaker 2: long period without raising suspicion.

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Speaker 1: This case really has raised a lot of questions about

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Speaker 1: potential shortcomings in the medical system in France and its

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Speaker 1: legal system, and you know, these questions around if more

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Speaker 1: could have been done to intervene earlier. Now that's led

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Speaker 1: to a two thousand and four incident coming under fresh scrutiny.

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Speaker 1: This relates to an FBI discovery actually from US investigators.

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Speaker 1: Lesquannac was investigated for viewing child sexual abuse images online.

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Speaker 1: After the FBI discovered that he was using the Dark

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Speaker 1: Web to access child abuse materials, the FBI alerted French authorities,

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Speaker 1: who then conducted an investigation. Now, the surgeon was convicted

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Speaker 1: over possession of these materials in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: but he was handed a suspended sentence, a four month

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Speaker 1: suspended prison sentence, which means that he didn't actually have

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Speaker 1: to serve any time behind bars.

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Speaker 2: So what you're saying is that in two thousand and

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Speaker 2: five he was convicted over the possession of child abuse materials.

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Speaker 2: He didn't serve jail time, and he was allowed to

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Speaker 2: practice as a surgeon after that time. Because you said

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Speaker 2: that he retired in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that same year that that conviction was brought,

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Speaker 1: he started working in a new hospital. Some of the

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Speaker 1: staff there were aware of the investigation from being in

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Speaker 1: the industry and hearing other hospitals discuss the matter. But

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Speaker 1: the hospital that he had started working at that Lasquanac

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Speaker 1: began working out in that year. He did not disclose

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Speaker 1: the charge to them, but some of these concerned staff

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Speaker 1: essentially called for his resignation. They questioned whether or not

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Speaker 1: he should be working as a surgeon with children, but

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Speaker 1: he refused to resign, and those staff eventually wrote to

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Speaker 1: the hospital's director and a state regulatory body to express

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Speaker 1: their concern. The hospital defended the surgeon. It actually promoted

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Speaker 1: him to the head of surgery in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: and local authorities never brought any sanctions against Lasquanac. He

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Speaker 1: then started working at another hospital in two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 1: Management there knew about the investigation, but they disregarded this

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Speaker 1: and hired him, and he continued to work there until

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Speaker 1: his twenty seventeen retirement. As you said, Zarah, the Squannac

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Speaker 1: was never barred from practicing, and eventually this French advocacy

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Speaker 1: group called the Child's Voice would call this a collective failure,

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Speaker 1: and that's a discussion that has been reignited now around

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Speaker 1: this trial. The Child's Voice also claims the court that

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Speaker 1: convicted the Squannac in two thousand and five failed in

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Speaker 1: its legal obligation to notify the National Surgery Watchdog under

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Speaker 1: the French Public Health Code. So this argument that the

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Speaker 1: court that convicted the Squannac had an obligation to notify

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Speaker 1: regulators to potentially look into removing him from being able

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Speaker 1: to perform surgeries to practice as a doctor, but the

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Speaker 1: process was never adequately completed that they were not notified.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So now this trial begins. It begins in France

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Speaker 2: on Monday local time. Given the scale of the charges,

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Speaker 2: how long is a case like this expected to last?

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Speaker 2: And one of the remarkable elements of the Gazelle Pellico

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Speaker 2: case was that as a victim, she waived her right

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Speaker 2: to anonymity and she spoke publicly and attracted global attention

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Speaker 2: to her cause. What do we understand about the alleged

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Speaker 2: victims in this.

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Speaker 1: Case, So unlike the Gazelle Pelico trial, we've got three

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Speaker 1: hundred alleged victims here who have not been named, though

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Speaker 1: some of them have publicly come forward and spoken to

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Speaker 1: various media outlets and lawyers for some of those alleged

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Speaker 1: victims have come forward, so there are some that have

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Speaker 1: been named. Authorities have set aside four months for this

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Speaker 1: trial to take place, and that really speaks to you

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Speaker 1: the scale of the number of charges that will need

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Speaker 1: to be worked through. So we'll expect to hear a

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Speaker 1: lot more through to at least June. But one of

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Speaker 1: the complexities of this case, like the Pellico case, is

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Speaker 1: that many of the alleged victims have very little recollection

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Speaker 1: of the assaults that are alleged to have taken place

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Speaker 1: because they were under sedation. Age is also a factor here,

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Speaker 1: with many of those alleged victims too young to remember

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Speaker 1: being in hospital or the time when these incidents took place,

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Speaker 1: according to investigators. One of the lawyers representing several victims,

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Speaker 1: Francesca Sata, she's involved in the trial and told the

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Speaker 1: BBC that among her clients are the families of two

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Speaker 1: men who did remember what had happened to them and

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Speaker 1: who ended up taking their own lives. So those families

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Speaker 1: will be fighting for justice on their behalf. Another alleged victim,

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Speaker 1: a woman now in her thirties, told local news outlet

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Speaker 1: France Blur that she suffered unresolved mental health issues for years,

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Speaker 1: never understanding why doctors had suspected that she'd suffered a

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Speaker 1: childhood trauma. But it wasn't until police contacted her because

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Speaker 1: her name appeared in those personal diaries that the memory

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Speaker 1: of her alleged assault came flooding back.

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Speaker 2: A trial of this scale, and I guess magnitude is

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Speaker 2: fairly rare, like the number of as you said, the

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Speaker 2: number of alleged victims is so great that I imagine

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Speaker 2: there will be a lot of global attention again on it.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious though, because in the Gazelle Pelico case, what

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Speaker 2: came with the case was this real groundswell of activism

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Speaker 2: I guess i'd call it, and certainly a push for

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Speaker 2: legislative change. Are we seeing that same sort of reaction

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Speaker 2: this time around?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I think, as you mentioned, Zara, we can only

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Speaker 1: expect this kind of conversation to become louder and louder

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Speaker 1: over the coming months, but there has already been this

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Speaker 1: ground swell of support for the alleged victims calls for

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Speaker 1: reform from several advocacy and legal bodies. There is this

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Speaker 1: group of six child protection associations in France that have

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Speaker 1: formed a coalition to support the alleged victims, and they've

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Speaker 1: called the trial quote an opportunity, among other things, to

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Speaker 1: recall that the fight against sexual violence against minors cannot

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Speaker 1: be carried out effectively without collective and coordinated work between

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Speaker 1: community actors, public authorities, and judicial bodies. And this speaks

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Speaker 1: to kind of those concerns about systemic ailires and what

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Speaker 1: failures may have allowed the alleged perpetrator to continue his

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Speaker 1: abuse over several decades. This coalition argue that the trial

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Speaker 1: is not limited to the judgment of an individual. They've

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Speaker 1: said that it must also contribute to a collective awareness

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Speaker 1: of the need to better identify, report, listen to and

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Speaker 1: protect children. Really, they've called on the French government as

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Speaker 1: a whole to guarantee quote the proper functioning of its

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Speaker 1: institutions to prevent these crimes from happening again.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's absolutely a case that we'll be keeping a

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Speaker 2: close eye on and as you just outline there the

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Speaker 2: consequences and ramifications of a case like this, not just

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Speaker 2: nationally but also internationally. If today's episode has raised any

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Speaker 2: concerns for you, you can contact one eight hundred Respect

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Speaker 2: on one eight hundred seven three seven seven three to

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Speaker 2: two or head to one eight hundred Respect dot org

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Speaker 2: dot au for resources. Lifeline is always available on thirteen

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Speaker 2: eleven fourteen. Take care of yourself and we'll be back

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Speaker 2: again this afternoon. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm

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Speaker 2: a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkudin woman from Gadighl Country. The

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Speaker 2: Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the

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Speaker 2: lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all

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Speaker 2: Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay our

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Speaker 2: respects to the first peoples of these countries, both past

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Speaker 2: and present