WEBVTT - The young Aussies being underpaid 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.320 Already and this is this is the Daily off. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.840 This is the Daily OS. Oh, now it makes sense. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.160 Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday, 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.320 the eighteenth of July. I'm Billy fitz. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:20.400 Simon's I'm Sam Kazluski. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.960 If you're a young person who's worked in retail, hospitality 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.120 or other casual jobs, you're probably wondered at some point 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:31.040 whether you are not being paid fairly. Now, new research 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.919 from the University of Melbourne suggests your suspicions are correct. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.639 A major study surveying nearly three thousand young workers has 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.160 found that one in three have likely been underpaid. Even 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.520 when you account for junior rates, the findings are stuck. 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:48.640 Around ten percent of workers were paid just ten dollars 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:51.400 an hour or less, more than half weren't paid over 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:54.280 time they were entitled to, and one in five weren't 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.400 paid for work they're done. It doesn't stop there. Young 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:01.320 workers told researchers they are forbidden from taking breaks, forced 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.280 to complete unpaid trial shifts, and even being paid in 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.920 the form of food instead of money. At the heart 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.680 of it is a lack of education and awareness about 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.160 rights at work, and a lack of leverage to push 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.640 back to help us understand these findings and their implications 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.040 for young workers across Australia. Sam was joined on today's 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.200 podcast by Tom Dillon, research fellow at the Center for 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.679 Employment and Labor Relations Law at the University of Melbourne, 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.440 who co authored this new report. We'll get to that 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.240 chat just after a quick message from our sponsor. 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:37.080 Tom. 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:38.880 Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:39.320 this morning. 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:41.240 Oh my pleasure. Thanks for having me on. 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:43.319 The first question I wanted to ask you about this 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:48.000 work that you've been doing is whether you framed low 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:52.560 pay to the subjects of your survey as a perception 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.000 and a feeling or as a standard. 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.520 There's a few sort of ways to sort of conceptualize that. 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:03.440 The survey insisted of a number of questions which sort 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:07.040 of asked different things and with slightly different criteria. By 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.679 and large, it could be characterized as a feeling or 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:15.520 an opinion insofar as we didn't require production of evidence 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.800 for the respondent's conclusions. The questions were really just geared 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:25.200 around asking respondents about their perceptions of exploitation or their 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.320 experiences in the workplace. 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:31.240 And so what you essentially found was about one in 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:35.840 three young people are feeling exploited or feeling underpaid. What 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:37.720 does that look like in practice? 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:43.160 Yeah, well, unfortunately, in part it speaks for itself. There's 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:47.079 a number of alarming statistics that do arise from the survey. 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:49.640 As for what it looks like, I think that really 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.920 requires sort of a bit of a think about the 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:56.000 broader picture. And to that end, we did find that 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.240 forty three percent had been required to complete work without 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.000 additional pay right or complete additional work without pay. But 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.079 further to that is also a number of other things 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:10.280 which flow on not just from under payments, but also 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:14.320 other poor experiences. So for example, thirty six percent being 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.200 forbidden to take breaks they were entitled to, thirty five 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.840 percent having their timeshit hours reduced by their employer, twenty 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.200 four percent not being paid superannuation, and just under ten 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.440 percent receiving food or products in lieu of money. 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.799 And that last stat really alarms me, as to did 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.239 the stat that one in ten workers reported being paid 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.119 ten dollars an hour or less. That's less than half 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:39.320 the minimum wage. So I guess my question with that 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.920 is how, I mean, let's take that and the food 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:47.000 in lieu of payment in one how are employers getting 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:48.120 away with this kind of thing. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:50.400 Really, it's sort of the result of it a number 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:55.200 of things. Young workers in employment relationships, they encounter power 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.760 and balances that are sort of inherent within them. Beyond that, 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:03.080 we also can that young workers are less likely to 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:04.640 sort of be informed of their rights. 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.440 Whose job do you think that is? Whose job is 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:08.720 it to inform them? 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.040 I would consider it to be a matter for regulatory authorities. 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.159 And that follows on to some of the conclusions we 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.800 made in the report where we really implored the regulators 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:25.520 to promote themselves and educate young workers, while also allowing 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.279 those young workers to see that the regulators can be 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:30.400 there to help them and that they do have those 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:31.560 statutory functions. 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:33.960 Because it's an interesting point you raise, right in terms 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.000 of the statutory functions, the way that the law is 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.560 set out, the structures in place, particularly for casual employment, 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:44.919 might have something to answer for here as well. Is 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:48.520 the actual environment and rules that everyone's playing by aren't 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.320 actually fair? Do you think that that's a fair characterization. 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.480 Yeah, Well, a real difficulty with part of the legal 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:59.120 framework as I see it, is sort of a lack 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:04.640 of concrete sort of easily referable standards and limitations. What 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:08.040 it states is that an employer can't ask an employee 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:12.240 to work additional hours that are unreasonable. But in reality, 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.120 a seventeen year old at a fast food chain will 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.880 have real difficulty enforcing something like that, because it's already 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.760 hard enough to come to a supervisor airing a grievance, 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.599 let alone, when all you have behind you is a 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.960 indefinite legal right that might on might not protect you, 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:31.520 and that might be a matter for a court to decide, 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:34.560 and it makes it really difficult and contributes to the 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.200 problem in my view. 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.280 And a discussion with your employer about what the word 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:44.599 reasonable means and doesn't mean with power imbalance out there 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.400 in the open playing out, and another area I found 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.840 myself thinking of that particular dynamic in your research was 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.640 around this idea of you mentioned workers said that they 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.000 lacked leverage to negotiate, and I think that that's another 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.599 you know, what does leverage actually mean to a young 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.720 employee is very different? 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:10.119 Yeah, absolutely, you know, And you think there's definitely circumstances 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:14.480 where employees in the workforce can have leverage over employers, 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:16.520 but a lot of the time that will only occur 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:20.120 when it's a very high skilled senior employee with a 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.440 lot of desirable and rare skills. 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:22.960 Yeah. 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.440 An issue that confronts a lot of the young workers 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:28.440 is that, you know, just by nature of being so young, 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:30.520 a lot of the jobs they can pick up are 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.680 in retail or in fast food things like that, and 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.479 in some respects the skills are replaceable in that the 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:40.600 employers at least consider that a lot of other people 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:45.280 can do them, and that really undermines any leverage that 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.479 or the minimal leverage that a teenager might have in 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:49.080 the workplace. 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.480 Anyway, can you give me a sense of one level 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.400 of detail beneath this idea of young people, and if 0:06:55.440 --> 0:07:01.280 there's any particular differences in gender, in cultural and linguistic diversity, 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:06.440 any socioeconomic drivers. Perhaps of the people who responded by 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.240 saying that they felt underpaid. 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.440 Yeah, absolutely, And part of the survey results that we 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.800 were concerned with was identifying factors like that, and we 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.440 arrived at the conclusion that there are a number of 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.560 characteristics that do affect and that did bear out in 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:25.080 the survey. Some of those being non males, were more 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.760 likely to report exploitation, as were people with a disability. 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.320 The same was true of non permanent residents, so say 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:37.320 temporary visa holders, and also having a preferred language other 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.520 than English, and those in addition to the precarious working 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.320 arrangements as well. So there are all things which we 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:47.240 found to be consistent or indicative of greater likelihoods of 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:48.640 exploitation or mistreatment. 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:50.920 I've got two more questions for you, Tom, and I 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.800 kind of want to bring this into kind of right 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.120 here today on Friday. If you could give one recommendation 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.240 to a policy maker, what would that be? But also 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.040 I'm keen to hear your thoughts on if you could 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.880 give one recommendation to a young person listening who might 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.800 feel as though they are in the kind of situation 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.920 that you're describing, what's one piece of advice for them 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:12.440 as well. 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:17.560 So as for policymakers, we did provide six recommendations at 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.280 the conclusion of the report. I think one that I'm 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:24.320 particularly interested in, and that might sort of be more 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:27.560 of a legislative thing than an in practice thing, would 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:31.840 be consideration of the inclusion of something called a loaded rate. So, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.720 in short, a loaded rate is pretty much an hourly 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:39.520 rate which tries to anticipate and encapsulate penalty rates. So 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.240 say if someone was paid one hundred dollars an hour 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.160 at a at nighttime and fifty during the day, the 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:46.720 loaded rate would be seventy five. 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:47.320 Right. 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.160 So I am partial to that recommendation because I think, 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:54.840 as the survey showed, there's so many young people that 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.360 aren't paid these penalty rates and that aren't paid the 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:02.480 appropriate amounts, and I think one potentially quite clean way 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.480 to do that would be to introduce a loaded rate 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:10.440 which accounts for them, such that employers in some respects 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.600 wouldn't have a choice about whether to pay or not 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.600 to pay the appropriate rate. As for the young workers themselves, 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.440 I would really recommend them to familiarize themselves to the 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.400 best extent they can with their workplace rights. I think 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:27.080 it's so easy to sort of just go to work 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.880 and not think too much about them and assume that, 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.440 especially a large employer, is going to do the right thing, 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.719 but unfortunately we found that's not the case. The Fair 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:40.120 Work Umbertsmen publishes a lot of resources online which are 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:44.320 meant for audiences of all ages and competencies, and I 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:49.600 think even getting across some basic ones like entitlements to 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.400 be paid more on public holidays, and when you may 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:56.319 or may not be entitled to overtime, how often you 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.240 should get breaks at work, even things like that. I 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.439 think the most important thing is these young workers recognizing 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:05.920 they have these rights and that's the first step to 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.920 enforcing them and making sure that they can be fulfilled 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:12.000 and they do bear out in practice. 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.439 Tom, thanks for joining us on the Daily os this morning. 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:15.320 Fain a pleasure. 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.760 Thank you so much for having me such a fascinating chat, 0:10:18.800 --> 0:10:22.080 and thank you so much for listening to today's podcast. 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.400 We'll be back this afternoon with the headlines, but until then, 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:30.600 have a great day. 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.160 My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.959 Bunjelung Kalkuttin woman from Gadighl Country. 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.920 The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.480 the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.839 all Aboriginal and Torres Straight Island and nations. We pay 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.800 our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:49.760 past and present.