1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily off. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 2: This is the Daily OS. Oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday, 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: the eighteenth of July. I'm Billy fitz. 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Simon's I'm Sam Kazluski. 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: If you're a young person who's worked in retail, hospitality 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: or other casual jobs, you're probably wondered at some point 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: whether you are not being paid fairly. Now, new research 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 2: from the University of Melbourne suggests your suspicions are correct. 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 2: A major study surveying nearly three thousand young workers has 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 2: found that one in three have likely been underpaid. Even 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 2: when you account for junior rates, the findings are stuck. 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: Around ten percent of workers were paid just ten dollars 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: an hour or less, more than half weren't paid over 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: time they were entitled to, and one in five weren't 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 2: paid for work they're done. It doesn't stop there. Young 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: workers told researchers they are forbidden from taking breaks, forced 18 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: to complete unpaid trial shifts, and even being paid in 19 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: the form of food instead of money. At the heart 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 2: of it is a lack of education and awareness about 21 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: rights at work, and a lack of leverage to push 22 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: back to help us understand these findings and their implications 23 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 2: for young workers across Australia. Sam was joined on today's 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: podcast by Tom Dillon, research fellow at the Center for 25 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 2: Employment and Labor Relations Law at the University of Melbourne, 26 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: who co authored this new report. We'll get to that 27 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: chat just after a quick message from our sponsor. 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 3: Tom. 29 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast 30 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: this morning. 31 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 3: Oh my pleasure. Thanks for having me on. 32 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: The first question I wanted to ask you about this 33 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: work that you've been doing is whether you framed low 34 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: pay to the subjects of your survey as a perception 35 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: and a feeling or as a standard. 36 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: There's a few sort of ways to sort of conceptualize that. 37 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: The survey insisted of a number of questions which sort 38 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 3: of asked different things and with slightly different criteria. By 39 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 3: and large, it could be characterized as a feeling or 40 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 3: an opinion insofar as we didn't require production of evidence 41 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: for the respondent's conclusions. The questions were really just geared 42 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: around asking respondents about their perceptions of exploitation or their 43 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: experiences in the workplace. 44 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: And so what you essentially found was about one in 45 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: three young people are feeling exploited or feeling underpaid. What 46 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: does that look like in practice? 47 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, unfortunately, in part it speaks for itself. There's 48 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 3: a number of alarming statistics that do arise from the survey. 49 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 3: As for what it looks like, I think that really 50 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 3: requires sort of a bit of a think about the 51 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 3: broader picture. And to that end, we did find that 52 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: forty three percent had been required to complete work without 53 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 3: additional pay right or complete additional work without pay. But 54 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 3: further to that is also a number of other things 55 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 3: which flow on not just from under payments, but also 56 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 3: other poor experiences. So for example, thirty six percent being 57 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: forbidden to take breaks they were entitled to, thirty five 58 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 3: percent having their timeshit hours reduced by their employer, twenty 59 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: four percent not being paid superannuation, and just under ten 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 3: percent receiving food or products in lieu of money. 61 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: And that last stat really alarms me, as to did 62 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: the stat that one in ten workers reported being paid 63 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 1: ten dollars an hour or less. That's less than half 64 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: the minimum wage. So I guess my question with that 65 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: is how, I mean, let's take that and the food 66 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: in lieu of payment in one how are employers getting 67 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: away with this kind of thing. 68 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 3: Really, it's sort of the result of it a number 69 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 3: of things. Young workers in employment relationships, they encounter power 70 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 3: and balances that are sort of inherent within them. Beyond that, 71 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 3: we also can that young workers are less likely to 72 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: sort of be informed of their rights. 73 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: Whose job do you think that is? Whose job is 74 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: it to inform them? 75 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: I would consider it to be a matter for regulatory authorities. 76 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 3: And that follows on to some of the conclusions we 77 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 3: made in the report where we really implored the regulators 78 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 3: to promote themselves and educate young workers, while also allowing 79 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 3: those young workers to see that the regulators can be 80 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 3: there to help them and that they do have those 81 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 3: statutory functions. 82 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: Because it's an interesting point you raise, right in terms 83 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: of the statutory functions, the way that the law is 84 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: set out, the structures in place, particularly for casual employment, 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: might have something to answer for here as well. Is 86 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: the actual environment and rules that everyone's playing by aren't 87 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: actually fair? Do you think that that's a fair characterization. 88 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, a real difficulty with part of the legal 89 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: framework as I see it, is sort of a lack 90 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: of concrete sort of easily referable standards and limitations. What 91 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 3: it states is that an employer can't ask an employee 92 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 3: to work additional hours that are unreasonable. But in reality, 93 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: a seventeen year old at a fast food chain will 94 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 3: have real difficulty enforcing something like that, because it's already 95 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 3: hard enough to come to a supervisor airing a grievance, 96 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 3: let alone, when all you have behind you is a 97 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 3: indefinite legal right that might on might not protect you, 98 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 3: and that might be a matter for a court to decide, 99 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 3: and it makes it really difficult and contributes to the 100 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: problem in my view. 101 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: And a discussion with your employer about what the word 102 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: reasonable means and doesn't mean with power imbalance out there 103 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: in the open playing out, and another area I found 104 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: myself thinking of that particular dynamic in your research was 105 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: around this idea of you mentioned workers said that they 106 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: lacked leverage to negotiate, and I think that that's another 107 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: you know, what does leverage actually mean to a young 108 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: employee is very different? 109 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, you know, And you think there's definitely circumstances 110 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 3: where employees in the workforce can have leverage over employers, 111 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 3: but a lot of the time that will only occur 112 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 3: when it's a very high skilled senior employee with a 113 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 3: lot of desirable and rare skills. 114 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 115 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 3: An issue that confronts a lot of the young workers 116 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: is that, you know, just by nature of being so young, 117 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: a lot of the jobs they can pick up are 118 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 3: in retail or in fast food things like that, and 119 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 3: in some respects the skills are replaceable in that the 120 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 3: employers at least consider that a lot of other people 121 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 3: can do them, and that really undermines any leverage that 122 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 3: or the minimal leverage that a teenager might have in 123 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 3: the workplace. 124 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: Anyway, can you give me a sense of one level 125 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: of detail beneath this idea of young people, and if 126 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: there's any particular differences in gender, in cultural and linguistic diversity, 127 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: any socioeconomic drivers. Perhaps of the people who responded by 128 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: saying that they felt underpaid. 129 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And part of the survey results that we 130 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 3: were concerned with was identifying factors like that, and we 131 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 3: arrived at the conclusion that there are a number of 132 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: characteristics that do affect and that did bear out in 133 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 3: the survey. Some of those being non males, were more 134 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: likely to report exploitation, as were people with a disability. 135 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: The same was true of non permanent residents, so say 136 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 3: temporary visa holders, and also having a preferred language other 137 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 3: than English, and those in addition to the precarious working 138 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 3: arrangements as well. So there are all things which we 139 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 3: found to be consistent or indicative of greater likelihoods of 140 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: exploitation or mistreatment. 141 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: I've got two more questions for you, Tom, and I 142 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: kind of want to bring this into kind of right 143 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: here today on Friday. If you could give one recommendation 144 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: to a policy maker, what would that be? But also 145 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm keen to hear your thoughts on if you could 146 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: give one recommendation to a young person listening who might 147 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: feel as though they are in the kind of situation 148 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: that you're describing, what's one piece of advice for them 149 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: as well. 150 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: So as for policymakers, we did provide six recommendations at 151 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 3: the conclusion of the report. I think one that I'm 152 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: particularly interested in, and that might sort of be more 153 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 3: of a legislative thing than an in practice thing, would 154 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 3: be consideration of the inclusion of something called a loaded rate. So, 155 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 3: in short, a loaded rate is pretty much an hourly 156 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 3: rate which tries to anticipate and encapsulate penalty rates. So 157 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 3: say if someone was paid one hundred dollars an hour 158 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: at a at nighttime and fifty during the day, the 159 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: loaded rate would be seventy five. 160 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: Right. 161 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: So I am partial to that recommendation because I think, 162 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: as the survey showed, there's so many young people that 163 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: aren't paid these penalty rates and that aren't paid the 164 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: appropriate amounts, and I think one potentially quite clean way 165 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 3: to do that would be to introduce a loaded rate 166 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 3: which accounts for them, such that employers in some respects 167 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 3: wouldn't have a choice about whether to pay or not 168 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 3: to pay the appropriate rate. As for the young workers themselves, 169 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 3: I would really recommend them to familiarize themselves to the 170 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 3: best extent they can with their workplace rights. I think 171 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 3: it's so easy to sort of just go to work 172 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 3: and not think too much about them and assume that, 173 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 3: especially a large employer, is going to do the right thing, 174 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 3: but unfortunately we found that's not the case. The Fair 175 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: Work Umbertsmen publishes a lot of resources online which are 176 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 3: meant for audiences of all ages and competencies, and I 177 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 3: think even getting across some basic ones like entitlements to 178 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: be paid more on public holidays, and when you may 179 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 3: or may not be entitled to overtime, how often you 180 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 3: should get breaks at work, even things like that. I 181 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 3: think the most important thing is these young workers recognizing 182 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 3: they have these rights and that's the first step to 183 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 3: enforcing them and making sure that they can be fulfilled 184 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 3: and they do bear out in practice. 185 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: Tom, thanks for joining us on the Daily os this morning. 186 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 3: Fain a pleasure. 187 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me such a fascinating chat, 188 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: and thank you so much for listening to today's podcast. 189 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: We'll be back this afternoon with the headlines, but until then, 190 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: have a great day. 191 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 192 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Kalkuttin woman from Gadighl Country. 193 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 3: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 194 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 3: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 195 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 3: all Aboriginal and Torres Straight Island and nations. We pay 196 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both 197 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 3: past and present.