Speaker 1: Today's show is an unusual one because the wonderful Shelley Johnson,
Speaker 1: host of This Is Work, interviewed me for.
Speaker 2: Her podcast and has kindly let.
Speaker 1: Me share the interview with you. In this chat, we
Speaker 1: explore some of the counterintuitive strategies to achieving genuine productivity,
Speaker 1: the kinds that don't leave you feeling burnt out by
Speaker 1: the day's end. You will learn why stopping mid sentence
Speaker 1: might be your productivity superpower, how splashing cold water on
Speaker 1: your face could save your afternoon slump, and why most
Speaker 1: of us are spending seven hours a day on what
Speaker 1: I call counterfeit productivity. So whether you're struggling with energy dips,
Speaker 1: battling burnout, or simply trying to focus on what truly
Speaker 1: matters in your work, this conversation will give you some practical,
Speaker 1: science backed strategies that you can implement today.
Speaker 3: Amantha, thank you for coming back on the show. It's
Speaker 3: great to have this conversation with you.
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to be here. I loved our last
Speaker 1: conversation oh so deep. We went so many different places.
Speaker 1: But today today I.
Speaker 3: Have been thinking about your work and the combination of
Speaker 3: your focus on productivity as well as health, and I
Speaker 3: think it's really interesting the link between those two things,
Speaker 3: how important one is for the other.
Speaker 4: So we're going to go there today. We're going to talk.
Speaker 3: About how we build these health habits, how we be
Speaker 3: more productive. It's just something we all want. And I
Speaker 3: want to start off with a question I have for
Speaker 3: you around sometimes productivity is counterintuitive, like the things that
Speaker 3: we think will make us productive sometimes don't, and the
Speaker 3: things that make us productive that we're like, wait, what
Speaker 3: does that actually work. What's the most counterproductive productivity tip
Speaker 3: that's helped you.
Speaker 2: I would say.
Speaker 1: It would be I've heard it referred to as the
Speaker 1: Hemingway trick, and other people refer to it as parking
Speaker 1: on a downhill slope. And I think I first heard
Speaker 1: it from Adam Grant or Rachel Botsman. It's something they
Speaker 1: both use. And what it involves is when you're wrapping
Speaker 1: up your work for the day, Intuitively, you kind of
Speaker 1: you want to find closure, you want to finish the
Speaker 1: task that you were doing. But when you start your
Speaker 1: work again in the morning, if you finish something and
Speaker 1: you're starting afresh on a brand new task, that is
Speaker 1: a big cause of procrastination. And so the Hemingway trick
Speaker 1: involves actually stopping when you're halfway through something. Why it's
Speaker 1: called the Hemingway trick is that Ernest Hemingway used to
Speaker 1: stop writing mid paragraph or even mid sentence, so that
Speaker 1: it made starting again the next day really easy and
Speaker 1: really easy to get into float. So, for example, how
Speaker 1: I'm using it literally right now, I'm on deadline for
Speaker 1: my fifth book, and every morning I spend the first
Speaker 1: one to three hours writing and researching, and so when
Speaker 1: I wrap up my writing mid morning, I will never
Speaker 1: finish at the end of a chapter. I will always
Speaker 1: finish halfway through something, and it makes starting again.
Speaker 2: Really really easy in the morning. It sounds as you're talking.
Speaker 3: If people can see my face, I'm like smiling, but
Speaker 3: inside I'm cringing, like I.
Speaker 4: Feel like I've got goose bunds, just thinking about like, no,
Speaker 4: you can't, you can't finish midway through a sentence.
Speaker 3: Did that first start make you feel weird? Like were
Speaker 3: you feeling as uncomfortable as I am, because I've like
Speaker 3: got that hebe Gebi's feeling.
Speaker 4: I'm like, no, you must finish that particular task.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what it is weird. But when you
Speaker 1: feel just how good it feels in the morning, because
Speaker 1: I find starting something very hard. I mean, jen Ai
Speaker 1: makes it easier to prompt you in different directions, but
Speaker 1: writing can often feel like hard work when you're on
Speaker 1: a deadline and I try to write a thousand words
Speaker 1: a day, and if I was writing like a project
Speaker 1: that didn't involve a lot of research, it's an easier
Speaker 1: target to hit because you know, I've got lots of
Speaker 1: practice writing, and I find it, you know, perhaps easier
Speaker 1: than most people, simply because I practice a lot, but.
Speaker 2: I just love it.
Speaker 1: Every morning I'm like, oh great, I'm straight in and
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is where I finished and it wasn't finished,
Speaker 1: and it's just so easy to get started.
Speaker 3: Well, I love that because that is counterintuitive.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't think to do that.
Speaker 3: I would think that that would make me feel like
Speaker 3: I hadn't finished my day the day before. And so
Speaker 3: just knowing that that is a technique that can work,
Speaker 3: that can get you over because I absolutely know that
Speaker 3: feeling of starting something.
Speaker 4: Feels like that big lift.
Speaker 3: That's the resistance we feel in the morning, especially if
Speaker 3: it's something like weighty, like writing, for example, if or
Speaker 3: thinking about a chapter you're writing. It can feel really
Speaker 3: heavy just going from like the blank page staring at
Speaker 3: you with the cursor just blinking, going oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: here we go to like actually starting where you've already
Speaker 3: got a roll on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's the best.
Speaker 1: So that right now is I would say the number
Speaker 1: one productivity strategy that is helping me get shit done.
Speaker 4: Love it.
Speaker 3: I'm going to try it, even though it's making me
Speaker 3: feel weird just talking about it.
Speaker 4: I need to try this.
Speaker 3: So I want to know, just speaking of your writing,
Speaker 3: and one thing I'm finding at the moment for me personally,
Speaker 3: but I know a lot of our listeners who are
Speaker 3: knowledge workers who are working either from home or in
Speaker 3: an office. One thing I'm hearing a lot is that
Speaker 3: people want more creativity. They want to be able to
Speaker 3: be more creative. What are some things that you've been doing,
Speaker 3: especially in your writing process, Because writing is such a
Speaker 3: deep work and if people haven't spent time, like you've
Speaker 3: written so many books, you're onto your fifth book, the
Speaker 3: level of depths that goes into it, as well as
Speaker 3: creative energy is massive.
Speaker 4: It's huge.
Speaker 3: Are there things that you're doing to help build that
Speaker 3: level of creativity?
Speaker 4: In your work.
Speaker 1: Something I've been doing a lot in the last few
Speaker 1: months is using voice mode on chat GPT and essentially
Speaker 1: going for a walk. It feels like going for a
Speaker 1: walk with a buddy or a collaborator. And what my
Speaker 1: process is is I probably do this once every day
Speaker 1: or two, where I'll be nutting something out, Like at
Speaker 1: the moment, I'm struggling with how to structure the book,
Speaker 1: like i'd when I put in the book proposal to Penguin,
Speaker 1: I had a pretty clear idea, but as I'm probably
Speaker 1: about I'm thirty thousand words in now or thereabouts, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this structure is working, and that's
Speaker 1: a creative problem to solve in my mind. So what
Speaker 1: I'll do is, and I've done a few walks where
Speaker 1: I've been trying to nut this out, is I will
Speaker 1: prompt the AI to think in a certain way, Like
Speaker 1: sometimes I'll prompt it to, you know, think like certain
Speaker 1: writers that have structured.
Speaker 2: Their books in really interesting ways.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll just prompt it to think like a fellow
Speaker 1: organizational psychologist.
Speaker 2: So sort of depending on what.
Speaker 1: Persona I think is going to be most useful for
Speaker 1: my little brainstorm and I will on voice mode, and
Speaker 1: you know, for listeners that haven't used voice mode before,
Speaker 1: it's really easy to do if you just download the
Speaker 1: chat GPT app and then you press the little icon
Speaker 1: that looks like a sort of a sound wave kind
Speaker 1: of icon, and you just start talking and you have
Speaker 1: a conversation.
Speaker 2: And I have.
Speaker 1: Found that really really helpful. I will have like a
Speaker 1: half hour long conversation as I walk around the streets
Speaker 1: of my local area just chatting, and I feel a
Speaker 1: bit stupid, but then I'm like, well, if people are
Speaker 1: seeing me chatting, they'll probably just think I'm talking to
Speaker 1: someone on the phone, So it's all good and that
Speaker 1: really helps me nut things out and play around with ideas.
Speaker 1: It's like I do like to do that with real people.
Speaker 1: And funnily enough, yesterday I texted a couple of mates
Speaker 1: who I really respect their thinking and I wanted to
Speaker 1: get and I'm like, hey, can we meet for a coffee?
Speaker 1: I just want to bounce around some ideas with you,
Speaker 1: and one of them I still haven't heard back from.
Speaker 1: So it's like the AI is always there and that's
Speaker 1: really handy.
Speaker 3: Very reliable and consistent and timely with their responses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly and told to.
Speaker 3: Me about the book you're writing, because it's interesting, like
Speaker 3: your focus. You've done so much in the space of work,
Speaker 3: what's this next book focusing on.
Speaker 1: So something I found last year in twenty twenty four
Speaker 1: is that in I Reckon, almost every conversation I had
Speaker 1: with clients of Inventium, there was change, fatigue, there was exhaustion,
Speaker 1: there was burnout. There was a lot of retrenchments, where
Speaker 1: inevitably what happens after retrenchments, particularly large scale ones, is
Speaker 1: that the people that are left in the organization have
Speaker 1: to do quite a lot more work and that's really hard.
Speaker 1: And so I was hearing this in conversation every single week,
Speaker 1: and also for myself, I completely utterly hit burnout several
Speaker 1: times last year, and it felt like it was this
Speaker 1: universal problem and not one that was getting better, And
Speaker 1: so I became really interested in how could we overcome this.
Speaker 2: It felt like a.
Speaker 1: Chronic depletion epidemic, and I thought, what are the ways
Speaker 1: that we can do this? And the book is essentially
Speaker 1: about energy and overcoming this chronic depletion and obviously at
Speaker 1: its most extreme, burnout.
Speaker 2: So that's what the book is all about.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting to me if I just think about
Speaker 3: your last couple of books, so time Wise, which is
Speaker 3: all about productivity and all the things you've learned from
Speaker 3: your amazing guests on how I work and your own
Speaker 3: insights into that whole space. And then if I think
Speaker 3: about health habit where you're thinking about, okay, what is
Speaker 3: it that makes feel healthy and well? And then like
Speaker 3: this next step into the space of what is it
Speaker 3: that like gives people energy and how do we navigate
Speaker 3: this burnout? And I'm almost like thinking about it going
Speaker 3: if you and tell me if I'm totally off base here,
Speaker 3: please Amani, because you're.
Speaker 4: Like you might be like this is you're just butchering
Speaker 4: my work, but like, as I'm.
Speaker 3: Reverse engineering it, I'm thinking about Okay, if we think
Speaker 3: about it as a pyramid, it's like your energy levels
Speaker 3: are those things that sustain you to do difficult things
Speaker 3: in the long term, like that feeling of energy that
Speaker 3: you get from work or the depletion like I think
Speaker 3: for anyone who's listened who's had kids, like I remember
Speaker 3: that feeling early days, I reckon I've only just started
Speaker 3: to get past and of the depletion you have when
Speaker 3: your kids are waking up every night, and like you're
Speaker 3: trying to juggle your full time job and your roll
Speaker 3: as a parent and all that stuff, the energy you
Speaker 3: need to be healthy, like to actually exercise to do
Speaker 3: and like we know they're all connected, right, Like exercise
Speaker 3: gives us energy and all those things, or eating healthy
Speaker 3: gives us the energy we need. But then all of
Speaker 3: that stuff enables us to be productive. As I'm just
Speaker 3: sounding this out, does that resonate with you in any
Speaker 3: way or you're like no, no, set all right down.
Speaker 2: No, it does. It does.
Speaker 1: And for me, I'm obsessed with what I refer to
Speaker 1: was what is the minimum viable dose or the MVD,
Speaker 1: because I think so much of what is out there
Speaker 1: is just quite unattainable for a lot of people. It
Speaker 1: is just not feasible to spend an hour exercising every
Speaker 1: day like that is really hard, and particularly particularly when
Speaker 1: you've got young kids as well, Like I mean, how
Speaker 1: do you even leave the.
Speaker 2: House, let alone naturally expend.
Speaker 3: Energy get out of the house, Like this morning, I'll
Speaker 3: just tell you this morning, trying to leave the houses.
Speaker 4: We got on late because studying my.
Speaker 3: Daughter couldn't find a glasses. I'm like, I don't understand
Speaker 3: that this happens every single day. Every single day we
Speaker 3: can't find the glasses, and then we're just like all
Speaker 3: these juggles of things. I'm like, you get out of
Speaker 3: the house, you know, I've run a marathon, Like when
Speaker 3: would I get time to do an hour of exercise
Speaker 3: in addition to my however many hours.
Speaker 4: Of work you do and all the things.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think about this like I try to
Speaker 1: when I'm writing, you know, I kind of I have
Speaker 1: a few different people in mind that are almost.
Speaker 2: Like the avatars.
Speaker 1: Or you know, the icps, if you like to speak,
Speaker 1: marketing of who I'm writing for, and I think about
Speaker 1: their world and their life and anything that is going
Speaker 1: to take a lot of time to boost their energy.
Speaker 2: I'm just like nah.
Speaker 1: And as I'm researching it, like I mean, I go,
Speaker 1: I go down so many dead ends where I'll you know,
Speaker 1: sort of get to the end of reading a few
Speaker 1: pieces of research and I'm like, oh, man, that intervention
Speaker 1: lasted for six weeks and that was an hour a day.
Speaker 2: That is not realistic. I can't write about that. So
Speaker 2: instead I'm like, where are.
Speaker 1: Those things that will give us those quick bursts of energy?
Speaker 1: That are just really doable for the average person who
Speaker 1: is chronically depleted and presumably very very busy and time poor.
Speaker 3: Okay, So I want to dig into that for a
Speaker 3: sec because I love what you said about some of
Speaker 3: the things that we hear are just completely unattainable or unrealistic.
Speaker 4: And there's that trend.
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's still going around, but it
Speaker 3: was definitely very present in like twenty twenty three, where
Speaker 3: the morning routine started to really ramp up and everyone's like,
Speaker 3: everyone's like, you have to do this morning routine and
Speaker 3: it will take you three hours, and you must meditate
Speaker 3: for fifty minutes, and you must have an ice plunge,
Speaker 3: and then you have to have three boiled eggs. If
Speaker 3: you don't have three, you didn't get enough protein. Like
Speaker 3: it's just so extreme, and I like, look at it,
Speaker 3: and the people who talk about morning routines like these
Speaker 3: like solopreneurs that are out there just being like, this
Speaker 3: is how you sell stuff and this is if you
Speaker 3: want a win, this is how you win every day.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't even.
Speaker 2: They're man with no kids.
Speaker 3: They are they always are, But what are your thoughts
Speaker 3: on on some of those like common things we see
Speaker 3: out there around the morning routines. And I mean, for me,
Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't feel like I'm a morning person
Speaker 3: at all, Like I'm a sloth in the morning.
Speaker 4: I'm just like I'm dye. I just wake up. I'm like,
Speaker 4: I feel like someone's just hit me in the face.
Speaker 4: Like what are some of.
Speaker 3: Those things you see that are unattainable? And then what
Speaker 3: is that their minimum what did you call it? Minimum dose?
Speaker 2: Minimum viable dose? And these things?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I yeah, I mean morning routines that
Speaker 1: go on for hours. Really, they do irritate me because
Speaker 1: like who's got time for that?
Speaker 2: You know, like, yeah, who's got time for that?
Speaker 1: Unless you are young and you have no kids, and
Speaker 1: you're like and they you know, they're typically it's cliche
Speaker 1: to say stereotyping to day, but they're generally men in
Speaker 1: their twenties and maybe in their thirties. And I look,
Speaker 1: I do like rituals, and what I like about rituals
Speaker 1: and also habit stacking, where we're kind of doing one
Speaker 1: thing and then learning to automatically associate that with doing
Speaker 1: the next thing, is it just reduces cognitive load. So
Speaker 1: I like mourning rituals from that perspect but I don't
Speaker 1: like ones that are unrealistic. So I find that a
Speaker 1: lot of people, because of the space that I'm in,
Speaker 1: I will often get asked, what's your morning ritual? And
Speaker 1: I don't have one that I do every single day,
Speaker 1: But I do have some rituals that I do most
Speaker 1: days because I think that that's attainable. So for me,
Speaker 1: I would most days, I would exercise for about thirty
Speaker 1: to forty minutes first thing in the morning.
Speaker 2: And unlike you, Shelley, I'm very much a morning person.
Speaker 4: Are you a lark?
Speaker 2: Is that a lark?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yes, that is my time.
Speaker 3: Do you and you wake up? I've heard you talk
Speaker 3: about waking up at a certain time every day.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I will wake up at about six am every day,
Speaker 1: and I give like, if it's the weekend, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: it'd be nice to lay in bed a little bit more.
Speaker 1: I typically wouldn't do that past about six thirty, which
Speaker 1: I feel like sounds very rigid of me. But the
Speaker 1: reason why I do it is because if I do, say,
Speaker 1: sleep until eight am, and then I do that on
Speaker 1: Saturday and Sunday, and then Monday, I'm like, well, it's
Speaker 1: a workday, I'm going to wake up at six am. Again,
Speaker 1: I'm essentially giving myself what researchers call social jet lag,
Speaker 1: where it's like I've flown to New Zealand and then
Speaker 1: back again, and I've arrived home on Monday morning, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's a two hour time difference. This
Speaker 1: is totally throwing out my body clock. But most of
Speaker 1: us think nothing of it because we're not traveling, we're
Speaker 1: just in our home. But the impact that that has
Speaker 1: on your energy and on your ability to think clearly
Speaker 1: and function at your best is really huge. And so
Speaker 1: for me, the idea of sleeping in an extra couple
Speaker 1: of hours feeling versus feeling really good throughout the day
Speaker 1: for those first few days of the week, it's like
Speaker 1: that's not a good trade off for me. Other people
Speaker 1: might be like, the sleeping is worth it to feel
Speaker 1: a bit crappy on Monday and Tuesday and kind of
Speaker 1: getting into the rhythm on Wednesday, But for me, it's
Speaker 1: not a good trade off. So that's why I typically
Speaker 1: wake within a half hour window.
Speaker 3: I also think it's interesting like when people talk about
Speaker 3: the reason why they do a certain thing, like when
Speaker 3: I saw you post about it on LinkedIn, actually about
Speaker 3: the half an hour wake up and the impact that
Speaker 3: can have on your energy levels. And I know for myself,
Speaker 3: like I have a pretty consistent wake up time, manly
Speaker 3: because the kids wake me up at the same time
Speaker 3: every day. But I agree that if you know why
Speaker 3: you're doing something and you know the trade off, like
Speaker 3: you said, the trade off for you if you had
Speaker 3: an extra two hour sleep in on a Saturday, but
Speaker 3: on Monday you feel like crap, well, that is not
Speaker 3: a good I'm not happy with that decision. I'm not
Speaker 3: happy with the impact that has on my body and
Speaker 3: my ability to do the rest of my week.
Speaker 4: I love knowing that why.
Speaker 3: And for me, like even just thinking about you talking
Speaker 3: about this minimum viable dose. One thing that's really helped
Speaker 3: me with my energy levels because I've never been a
Speaker 3: big exercise I like, I've always found it hard has
Speaker 3: just been doing a twenty minute thing on my app
Speaker 3: on my phone. I have the kick app and those
Speaker 3: twenty minutes or the like, I'm that's doable. I can
Speaker 3: commit to that consistently. What I can't commit to is
Speaker 3: like the like rigorous steps that take three hours that
Speaker 3: you're like, oh gosh, this is completely over the top,
Speaker 3: and what is the return on that? Whereas I feel
Speaker 3: the return on that twenty minutes consistently every day for
Speaker 3: an extended period rather than these like six weeks of
Speaker 3: like intensive stuff that you end up just dropping off
Speaker 3: because it's not sustainable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, something that helps me with that, because I
Speaker 1: also think the idea of doing something every day has
Speaker 1: its pro cons. Like in a sense, if you say
Speaker 1: to yourself, I exercise every day, then there's no decision
Speaker 1: to be made, like you can't argue with yourself, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, should I exercise today or not? Well, you do,
Speaker 1: but where that can go awry and psychologists call it
Speaker 1: the what the hell effect, where you're like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to exercise every day, or I'm going to eat healthy
Speaker 1: every day, or you know, avoid sugar or whatever your
Speaker 1: kind of goal is. And then let's say you're going
Speaker 1: really well, but on day six, the day is chaos.
Speaker 1: It turns to crap, and you know, you either I
Speaker 1: don't know if you're trying to quit sugar, you have
Speaker 1: all this chocolate at night, or you just don't have
Speaker 1: time to exercise and then you think, oh, what the hell,
Speaker 1: I may as well not exercise, or I may as
Speaker 1: well just you know, go back to chocolate. But what
Speaker 1: research has found is that if we can give ourselves
Speaker 1: hall passes, and you know, like people might have heard
Speaker 1: the term hall pass in relation to cheating on your
Speaker 1: partner in a marriage, but this is in the context
Speaker 1: of behavior behavior change. So research has found that if
Speaker 1: you give yourself a couple of hall passes a week,
Speaker 1: So if you're trying to do a daily habit like
Speaker 1: exercise every day, but say to yourself, I'm going to
Speaker 1: give myself two hall passes a week. So basically, if
Speaker 1: there are two days during the week where I just
Speaker 1: I just can't do it because you know, stuff happens,
Speaker 1: then that's okay and you can feel okay about that.
Speaker 1: And if we do that, if we adopt the hall
Speaker 1: past strategy, ironically, it makes us more likely to achieve
Speaker 1: our goals and also it makes us a lot more
Speaker 1: resilient in that we're able to bounce back from those setbacks.
Speaker 2: If we do have a day.
Speaker 1: Where we don't exercise, we're much more likely to get
Speaker 1: back on the wagon the following day. So hall passes,
Speaker 1: I very much recommend it as a good strategy to
Speaker 1: use if you're trying to create a new habit.
Speaker 3: And you're so right, it's like that throw in the
Speaker 3: towel if you like, I think I think about Easter right,
Speaker 3: We've just at the.
Speaker 4: Time this recording is the Easter long weekend just gone.
Speaker 3: And like if you're on a health if you're trying
Speaker 3: to not have too much sugar, but over the weekend
Speaker 3: you go on fifty Easter egg hunts with your family,
Speaker 3: You're like, the temptation is, well, I've just actually ruined
Speaker 3: three months worth of work, So I don't like throwing
Speaker 3: in the towel and the what the hell? I can
Speaker 3: definitely relate to those kind of sentiments. I want to
Speaker 3: know whether there's been things that you've done in that
Speaker 3: minimum viable dose that have been helpful. So you talked
Speaker 3: about getting up at the same time, what other habits
Speaker 3: have you kind of stacked up that some of our
Speaker 3: listeners who are time poor, who are very busy, and
Speaker 3: we're going to talk about busy in a sec what
Speaker 3: are things that help you?
Speaker 1: Amanther, I find that state changes always help me a lot.
Speaker 1: I am at my computer, at my desk for a
Speaker 1: large part of days if I'm not out with clients
Speaker 1: or in podcast, udioor keynote speaking. But like, I spent
Speaker 1: so many hours at my desk, and if I am
Speaker 1: starting to lack in energy, one of the best things
Speaker 1: I found that helps is just changing my state. So
Speaker 1: changing my state might be as simple as standing up
Speaker 1: and stretching for a few minutes, And there's great research
Speaker 1: to show that that's a really effective way to improve energy.
Speaker 1: Like you don't even have to get your heart right up,
Speaker 1: just do a few stretches and sit back down again.
Speaker 2: I actually put.
Speaker 1: Out a call on LinkedIn to go people, what do
Speaker 1: you do when you're running out of energy? And I've
Speaker 1: got some really interesting suggestions. And I love doing that
Speaker 1: because then I'll go away and hunt down or was
Speaker 1: it actually science to support what people are doing? And
Speaker 1: I remember Don Price, who I know has been on
Speaker 1: your show several times. He suggested splashing cold water on
Speaker 1: your face, Like, oh, that sounds really good, because I
Speaker 1: had been researching cold showers and what is the minimum
Speaker 1: amount of cold water immersion? Because like, there's no way
Speaker 1: I'm doing an ice bath, but I can have a
Speaker 1: cold shower for a few seconds at the end of
Speaker 1: a hot one, and I'm like, I wonder if cold
Speaker 1: water has a similar impact, And it turns out it does.
Speaker 1: And so that's another example of just a really really
Speaker 1: great but easy to do and quick to do state
Speaker 1: change where if you're feeling like your energy is waning,
Speaker 1: just go to the bathroom, splash some water on your face,
Speaker 1: cold water, and it will actually improve your energy, and
Speaker 1: you'll come back and you can sit at your desk
Speaker 1: and you will feel very different to how you did
Speaker 1: when you left your desk.
Speaker 3: I think when you're talking about the cold water, I
Speaker 3: can vividly remember my mom. She like, I'm one of
Speaker 3: five kids, and we would do these big family holidays
Speaker 3: and we would drive for a really long time to
Speaker 3: like Queensland from Newcastle and at the time be like
Speaker 3: a twelve hour plus trip with five kids, and I
Speaker 3: remember Mum in the driver's seat. We would get twenty
Speaker 3: minutes out of Newcastle, Lamantha like we're hardly on the
Speaker 3: road at all, and she would get a bottle of
Speaker 3: cold water and tip it over her head and like,
Speaker 3: and I would have been like early high school at
Speaker 3: this point, I'm like, we are in for a bad time,
Speaker 3: Like she's doing a state change twenty minutes into a.
Speaker 4: Twelve hour drive. This is not good. This is not
Speaker 4: a good time, but I do.
Speaker 3: It's funny how when you hear other people's strategies, it
Speaker 3: gives you these ideas. And that's partly what I would
Speaker 3: love listeners to take away from today is going okay,
Speaker 3: as you're hearing these strategies, Amantha's suggesting try some stuff
Speaker 3: this week because.
Speaker 4: You need to know it.
Speaker 3: Not every single thing will work for you, but some
Speaker 3: of this will, and going okay, what is my little strategy?
Speaker 3: Is it stretching in between? Is it standing up? Is
Speaker 3: it actually going outside for a bit? Or is it
Speaker 3: the cold I swore the water on the face. Do
Speaker 3: the something quick that can help test? What's going to
Speaker 3: give me that lift in energy?
Speaker 4: I want it.
Speaker 3: This might seem like a silly question, but sometimes when
Speaker 3: we talk about this idea of energy, I just love
Speaker 3: if you could explain, like when you think about what
Speaker 3: does energy look like when we've got it and what does.
Speaker 4: It look like when we don't have it?
Speaker 3: Because I think it can be like this ethereal concept,
Speaker 3: what does energy mean to you when we have it?
Speaker 4: And when we don't.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: I would say it's easy to think about when we
Speaker 1: don't have energy, because I think there are several times
Speaker 1: during someone's typical day where they're feeling it really common
Speaker 1: experience to wake up and.
Speaker 2: Have been in.
Speaker 1: Bed for eight hours, like that's how much sleep we're
Speaker 1: meant to get, right, but we wake up and we're like,
Speaker 1: I feel like I haven't slept, I feel like my
Speaker 1: sleep was not of good quality, and I feel exhausted,
Speaker 1: and I don't feel.
Speaker 2: Ready to start the day.
Speaker 1: Sleep researchers call it sleep inertia. It's very very common.
Speaker 1: I think that's the first point where people lack the energy.
Speaker 1: I think that the second common point, and like, and
Speaker 1: tell me if you can relate to this is like
Speaker 1: it's nine o'clock or thereabouts, time to start the workday,
Speaker 1: and you're just like, I just I don't feel motivated.
Speaker 1: I don't know how I'm going to get into flow.
Speaker 1: I just I feel really unfocused. That's another point where
Speaker 1: energy is really low. Typically, then you know, as we
Speaker 1: head towards lunch, generally for a lot of people, the
Speaker 1: sort of the nine to twelve period not too bad.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we are feeling a little bit distractable in that
Speaker 1: mid morning time where we go get a coffee or
Speaker 1: take a little break. But then after lunch is when
Speaker 1: another big energy are energy sort of like you know,
Speaker 1: exhaustion milestone I guess happens. Psychologists call it the post
Speaker 1: lunch dip. For the rest of us, it's like it's
Speaker 1: that time at about two or three in the afternoon
Speaker 1: when you're your lunch choices have potentially led to a
Speaker 1: blood glucose crash, and you're feeling pretty ordinary and you're
Speaker 1: heading for some sort of sugary snack.
Speaker 2: To give you a short lived boost of energy.
Speaker 1: You're probably not thinking at your best in the afternoon,
Speaker 1: and then of course at the end of the day
Speaker 1: there's that exhaustion and particularly you know.
Speaker 2: If you've got things to do, if you've got.
Speaker 1: Kids to keep alive and feed and bathe and all
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, and you're just like, ah, I
Speaker 1: can't I don't know the energy for this. Or maybe
Speaker 1: you're someone that has plans at night and you think
Speaker 1: to yourself, I really wish I was having a night
Speaker 1: in tonight instead. It's another really common source of just
Speaker 1: lacking energy. And then even later on when the day
Speaker 1: is over and if you are a parent, the kids
Speaker 1: are in bed and you just find yourself glued to
Speaker 1: social media because that is all your brain can handle,
Speaker 1: that sort of passive distraction. Like to me, those are
Speaker 1: the points that I hear again and again that that's
Speaker 1: where we're feeling depleted on a.
Speaker 3: Typical day, even just hearing you say the social media
Speaker 3: like kind of like the distracted scrolling. I find I
Speaker 3: get into that habit when my energy is low, where
Speaker 3: I'll just like mindlessly scroll, And like last night I
Speaker 3: found myself doing that. I was like, really wrecked. It's
Speaker 3: just been it like hectic couple of weeks, and I
Speaker 3: was like, and I don't find I often do that
Speaker 3: at night, Like I was just like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling,
Speaker 3: And then I found the weird thing was I was
Speaker 3: so tired, but then I could not go to sleep
Speaker 3: for so long, and I'm I like, it's weird. The
Speaker 3: going back to this counterintuitive thing about energy. You can
Speaker 3: be really depleted and have low energy and do and
Speaker 3: like do these mindless things, but then they actually triggered
Speaker 3: the reverse impact where you can't then get to sleep
Speaker 3: or you don't have that deep What are your thoughts
Speaker 3: on the link between those kind of activities that we're
Speaker 3: doing to distract ourselves and actually how they exacerbate the
Speaker 3: exact thing we're trying to avoid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Scientists would call this tired but wired, and it's really
Speaker 1: common where you're feeling exhausted but your brain is feeling wired.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I find like screens are bad for this. I think
Speaker 1: most of us now know that the blue light that
Speaker 1: is emitted from our phones and screens suppresses melatonin, which
Speaker 1: is the hormone that we.
Speaker 2: Need to actually get to sleep.
Speaker 1: And so you know, a good rule is to get
Speaker 1: off your screen at least an hour before the time where.
Speaker 2: You would like your body to be asleep. So that
Speaker 2: is really helpful.
Speaker 1: But I think, you know, like for me in my
Speaker 1: own life, I just know I need that hour before
Speaker 1: bed where I'm just doing very passive, relaxing things. I'm
Speaker 1: sure I would be well served to start a meditation habit,
Speaker 1: but it is just like it is still beyond me.
Speaker 1: I feel like I do other things that are meditative.
Speaker 1: But you know, certainly a lot of friends of mine,
Speaker 1: a lot of people that I've interviewed on how I work,
Speaker 1: so many of them have some sort of a meditation habit,
Speaker 1: and it is a really great way to calm down
Speaker 1: your brain and slow down your heart rate.
Speaker 2: I don't know for me, like I'm.
Speaker 1: An AURA ring wearer, so I you know, tracking various
Speaker 1: you know, various markers. And I know for me, like
Speaker 1: on those nights where I don't wind down, or maybe
Speaker 1: I've gone out and it's been like a really stimulating
Speaker 1: conversation with friends, and I come home like feeling really wired,
Speaker 1: but in a positive emotion way, as opposed to we've
Speaker 1: just been in a you know, in a doomscroll loop
Speaker 1: on TikTok or Instagram, and I will look at my
Speaker 1: AURA score the next day and it's like, oh, your
Speaker 1: resting heart rate was up when you went to bed.
Speaker 2: So I very much.
Speaker 1: Notice it in the quality of my sleep because it'll
Speaker 1: affect the quality of my sleep when I'm.
Speaker 2: You know, tracking it.
Speaker 1: But I always try to build it in an hour
Speaker 1: before bed where I'm just doing something really passive, like
Speaker 1: reading fiction.
Speaker 2: That's a really.
Speaker 3: Good discipline too, Like I the hour before bed, I.
Speaker 4: Reckon that feels that feels long for me, Like I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, but also I read.
Speaker 4: All my books on my phone, so.
Speaker 3: I'm a massive fiction reader, but I have Kindle on
Speaker 3: my phone, and so when I'm going to bed this,
Speaker 3: I know, this is so bad, Like I know everything
Speaker 3: in me is like it.
Speaker 2: Is the worst.
Speaker 3: But it's so practical, Like I'm like, I don't have
Speaker 3: to like buy the book. I just have it on
Speaker 3: my phone whenever I want it, and I would sit,
Speaker 3: you know, for an hour every night, just like in
Speaker 3: bed with my phone up to my face, just reading.
Speaker 3: And I'm I'm always amazed that i still wake up
Speaker 3: every morning.
Speaker 4: I'm so tired.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I really I hate that for you. Shelly.
Speaker 2: Do you own an actual kindle?
Speaker 4: No? No, would that be better?
Speaker 2: I think you need to get an actual kindle.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So from most of the research that I'm across,
Speaker 1: the light on the kindle, particularly if you're in dark
Speaker 1: mode on the kindle, as i am, so I would
Speaker 1: mostly read my kindle in bed at night, but I'd
Speaker 1: never read my phone at night, just because the light
Speaker 1: that it's emitting is very different. One light is telling
Speaker 1: you to stay awake, another is not.
Speaker 4: Is your phone out of your bedroom?
Speaker 2: Yeah it is?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for years it charges in the corridor. So
Speaker 1: we've got a little charging station, there's no phones allowed
Speaker 1: in the bedroom.
Speaker 4: That again, this is a discipline, And it's really interesting.
Speaker 3: I mean thinking about this word discipline a lot lately
Speaker 3: because we've been working with teams, some really high performing
Speaker 3: teams who discipline is a really import and part of
Speaker 3: how they perform well. And then just thinking about you going, okay,
Speaker 3: I've got this hour before bed.
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, that's a long time.
Speaker 3: And then and then the phone's in the corridor again,
Speaker 3: another discipline that you've been doing for years, and then
Speaker 3: waking up within half an hour. But these are like
Speaker 3: they're simple, but they're not easy, Like it is a
Speaker 3: full habit change, Like I'm thinking about how I and
Speaker 3: I'm going to do. I actually haven't getting to publicly
Speaker 3: commit to getting a kindle and getting off my phone
Speaker 3: because I know when I've got my phone right here
Speaker 3: as I'm sleeping, I can I just like beate myself.
Speaker 4: But I'm not. I haven't made any changes.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing I mean, because you talk about discipline,
Speaker 1: but for me, because I've been doing these things for
Speaker 1: so long years, there's no discipline involved. It's more it
Speaker 1: feels weird when I don't do those things like very
Speaker 1: occasionally I will sleep with my phone next to me, like,
Speaker 1: for example, if my daughter is at a sleepover and
Speaker 1: I feel an obligation to just have my phone not
Speaker 1: on silence, but just just in case, because it would
Speaker 1: be a crappy experience for the other parents if they
Speaker 1: needed to get hold of me, and they never do,
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of irrational, but I feel like it's
Speaker 1: a responsible thing to do. Or very occasionally where I've
Speaker 1: got a really early morning and i want double alarm,
Speaker 1: so I've got an old school alarm clock that I
Speaker 1: you know that there's no scrolling on that alarm clock,
Speaker 1: and that is there to help me tell the time
Speaker 1: and wake me up if I need to wake up
Speaker 1: at a certain time. But sometimes I'll bring the phone
Speaker 1: in just for double alarm in case something goes wrong
Speaker 1: with the power. But otherwise they just take no effort
Speaker 1: because there are things that I've been doing forever, like
Speaker 1: it really doesn't take a lot of effort to wake
Speaker 1: within a half hour window, because my body finds it
Speaker 1: hard not to wake within that window because I've been
Speaker 1: doing it for so long, and it just feels really
Speaker 1: unnatural and strange to sleep with my phone in my bed,
Speaker 1: like it's you know, it's it's like I don't know,
Speaker 1: as if I'm sleeping with the world's brightest TV.
Speaker 2: Right next to me, like that just that would feel weird, right.
Speaker 1: So I think the more you do it, the less
Speaker 1: discipline it requires.
Speaker 4: That's a really good call out.
Speaker 3: Actually, as something as your first kicking off a new habit,
Speaker 3: it will feel like a discipline, but or over time
Speaker 3: it just feels normal. And I love that because I'm
Speaker 3: like thinking about that, going Okay, cool, That's what I
Speaker 3: need some of those things in my life.
Speaker 4: I want to take. I want to take a quick break.
Speaker 3: When we come back, I want to ask you about
Speaker 3: this idea of busy because I think one thing that
Speaker 3: you do really well is you're thinking about how do
Speaker 3: we be productive and effective, and often that runs counter
Speaker 3: to busy culture.
Speaker 4: So when we come back, we'll dig into that.
Speaker 3: So, Amantha, one thing that I feel like everyone has
Speaker 3: been complaining all about our clients so we work with
Speaker 3: have been complaining about is everyone's busy, but they're not
Speaker 3: doing the we don't think they're doing the right world work,
Speaker 3: or we're not working on the highest value things. We're
Speaker 3: still not achieving our strategy. And I think this very
Speaker 3: much links into productivity and how we be productive versus busy.
Speaker 3: Can you talk to us about how we can shift
Speaker 3: our mindset from being always on the hustle the busyness
Speaker 3: versus working on what is really important?
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: A new I guess ritual that I have started recently
Speaker 1: is at the start of every month. And this is
Speaker 1: going to sound really simple, but it has helped me
Speaker 1: so much. Is that the start of every month, I
Speaker 1: will think what are the big chunks of work that
Speaker 1: I want to do?
Speaker 2: So really, what are my.
Speaker 1: Big deep work projects that I'm working on? And right
Speaker 1: now the manuscripts are given. That is an everyday task
Speaker 1: that doesn't require thinking. It's just a non negotiable, even
Speaker 1: on weekends. It's literally every single day I write. But
Speaker 1: when it comes to my inventing and work, I think
Speaker 1: about what are the things that are going to get
Speaker 1: me closer to my goals to the company goals, to
Speaker 1: the things that are going to make an impact. And
Speaker 1: I'll typically write down it's typically about four or five things,
Speaker 1: like it might be plan a launch strategy for this
Speaker 1: new product, or you know, finish developing this program, about blah.
Speaker 1: So things that are quite meety, they're probably going to
Speaker 1: be about, you know, two days worth of deep work each,
Speaker 1: let's say thereabouts, and I will have that.
Speaker 2: I will pin that as a note.
Speaker 1: I use Apple notes, although I'm sort of between notion
Speaker 1: and Apple notes at the moment, so just my note
Speaker 1: take is a little bit of a mess right now.
Speaker 1: And for the most part, I will timebox, so I'll
Speaker 1: make meetings with myself to do the things that are important.
Speaker 2: But then if I haven't done that, and.
Speaker 1: I've got a day where you know, I've got a
Speaker 1: spare two or three hours that is not account by.
Speaker 2: Book writing or by meetings or by.
Speaker 1: Needing to help my team with things, I will go
Speaker 1: to that monthly goal list or task list and I go, Okay,
Speaker 1: what do I need to make progress on? What am
Speaker 1: I feeling like I've got energy for today?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Is it a creative task? Is it an analytical task?
Speaker 1: And I will pick one of those things, and I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: today I'm going to make progress on this. I'm going
Speaker 1: to dedicate a couple of hours to moving forward on
Speaker 1: this particular goal for the month.
Speaker 2: It sounds so simple and obvious, but I found that.
Speaker 1: It helps me so much because I think, and particularly
Speaker 1: when you're a leader in a business, the easiest thing
Speaker 1: is just to be reacting to what everyone else needs
Speaker 1: and to completely lose sight of your own goals, because
Speaker 1: that feels like you're doing a good job. Like if
Speaker 1: I'm helping my team troubleshoot various things or helping them
Speaker 1: develop a program for a client and I'm helping reduce
Speaker 1: their stress, I feel really good about my and I
Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, today was a good day. But if
Speaker 1: I did that every day and I didn't go back
Speaker 1: to what am I trying to achieve? And sometimes there'll
Speaker 1: be things that I'm working on solo, so there's nothing
Speaker 1: to react to. It's purely just me in charge of
Speaker 1: whether progress gets made or not. It's so easy to
Speaker 1: lose sight of those goals, and so I have a
Speaker 1: simple list.
Speaker 2: It is pinned.
Speaker 1: I look at it several times a week when I'm
Speaker 1: feeling a little bit distracted or unfocused, or like I've
Speaker 1: got this block of time, how should I be using it?
Speaker 1: The easiest thing to do is just to go into
Speaker 1: my inbox and go, I'm just gonna like stuff around
Speaker 1: in my inbox and have that false sense of productivity,
Speaker 1: and I can easily just get stuck in there for
Speaker 1: an hour and emerge like not having actually been that productive.
Speaker 1: So that has been one of the single biggest helpers
Speaker 1: in the last few months.
Speaker 3: And just hearing you unpack that, to me, I think
Speaker 3: about two things. It's like counterfeit productive, like when you're
Speaker 3: in the reactive mode, it's this is the worst part
Speaker 3: about it. You feel you're being productive. So it's the illusion,
Speaker 3: like I feel I've like done all this stuff, I've
Speaker 3: like been drawn into I've like smashed out a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of emails, I've like connected with a whole bunch
Speaker 3: of my team on like stuff that you know has
Speaker 3: felt really urgent, But is the importance there if you
Speaker 3: went through an analyze it, like some of the things maybe,
Speaker 3: but some of the things definitely not.
Speaker 4: And then you go, oh, okay, I.
Speaker 3: Feel I've been productive today, but that list of the
Speaker 3: most important things is still sitting there with no momentum.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I love that term catafeite productivity.
Speaker 2: That's cool.
Speaker 1: I call it like false productivity where you feel like
Speaker 1: you're being productive. It's just it's a flawed belief that
Speaker 1: you are, but it feels so good. You know, It's
Speaker 1: like it feels really good archiving emails and you know,
Speaker 1: writing quick responses to things and like getting down to
Speaker 1: inbog zero or something like that. You know, the way
Speaker 1: email has been designed, it's gamified, and so it's really addictive,
Speaker 1: and I must say, like it's still my achilles heel.
Speaker 2: But I do.
Speaker 1: I am one thing that's actually helped me in terms
Speaker 1: of stay out of my inbox more is I mean,
Speaker 1: aside from all the obvious things in terms of just
Speaker 1: you know, Superhuman is the email client that I use.
Speaker 1: I have it closed for most of the day. I
Speaker 1: also have we also use Microsoft teams that invent hum
Speaker 1: and we'll you know, communicate a bit on chat. I'll
Speaker 1: generally have that closed. I'll open it a handful of
Speaker 1: times a day. But my amazing EA Gem she's in
Speaker 1: my inbox during the day, multiple times a day, and.
Speaker 2: She's responding to things.
Speaker 1: She's even like drafting email responses from me for me
Speaker 1: to approve or edit and then send. Like essentially, the
Speaker 1: more she's in my inbox, the easier my life is.
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of training myself to go if I'm
Speaker 1: in my inbox too much. I'm probably making gem feel
Speaker 1: like I'm not valuing the stuff that she's doing in
Speaker 1: my inbox, which is amazing, and so kind of thinking
Speaker 1: about how my behavior impacts someone else negatively has actually
Speaker 1: been quite a good motivator, you know, out of my
Speaker 1: need to be helpful.
Speaker 2: So that's it, and it's kind.
Speaker 3: I do think that last line of the need to
Speaker 3: be helpful. I think that sometimes is where this pattern
Speaker 3: towards busy and reactive comes in, because we feel we're
Speaker 3: being helpful.
Speaker 4: And like, I'll.
Speaker 3: Speak for myself, I won't speak for you, but my
Speaker 3: ego likes that. Like I liked to feel like really
Speaker 3: needed and really like, oh yeah, like I really helped
Speaker 3: helped a lot of people today.
Speaker 4: But I'm like, but did I actually help make an impact?
Speaker 3: And I've been coming back a lot, and I know
Speaker 3: you've done like a bit of work on this around
Speaker 3: really understanding when you think about the work, what is
Speaker 3: the impact of that work and does that impact actually
Speaker 3: push the business forward, push the organization forward, or is
Speaker 3: it just perpetuating this cycle of the false productivity that
Speaker 3: you mentioned. I know I am speaking of productivity. I'm
Speaker 3: looking at the big glaring clock that says there's three
Speaker 3: minutes left that we have in the last few minutes
Speaker 3: we have. I would just love are there any other
Speaker 3: things that you would love listeners to know about what
Speaker 3: it means to be not just productive but healthy and
Speaker 3: build this kind of productive way of working in a
Speaker 3: sustainable way.
Speaker 1: I think a really good but painful exercise to go
Speaker 1: through is to actually track how are you using the
Speaker 1: minutes in your day. I think that most people will be.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of great software that can make it
Speaker 2: easy to do.
Speaker 1: I quite like riseris I it makes it really easy,
Speaker 1: particularly if you're a computer based worker, just to go
Speaker 1: where is my time going? And then to look at
Speaker 1: that and go how does that actually fit with my
Speaker 1: job and my goals and ultimately the things that I
Speaker 1: can do that will have the biggest impact, and often
Speaker 1: there is very little relationship between those things. The average
Speaker 1: knowledge worker is spending about three hours in their inbox. Generally,
Speaker 1: that's not three productive hours, it's three faffing about hours.
Speaker 1: They're spending about four hours a day in meetings, and
Speaker 1: if you think about that, that's seven out of eight
Speaker 1: hours that we're working. Where on Earth is the deep
Speaker 1: work happening for most people, it's simply not, so be like,
Speaker 1: start to be aware, and you know, you could just
Speaker 1: set up an Excel spreadshet and track your time in
Speaker 1: fifteen minute increments and look at where your time is
Speaker 1: actually going and compare that against what is your job
Speaker 1: and what are your goals and if there's a disconnect,
Speaker 1: now you know where you can start to make some changes.
Speaker 3: That is amazing And I think there are so many
Speaker 3: practical tools that you've given people on this episode.
Speaker 4: What I want you to do.
Speaker 3: If you're listening and you're like, oh, yeah, there's a
Speaker 3: lot here that I can take away, try two things
Speaker 3: in the next week. So for me, I'm going to
Speaker 3: buy I'm going to go on Amazon after this and
Speaker 3: get the Kindle so that I can actually just salt
Speaker 3: my bedarime routine.
Speaker 4: Now do I sleep out?
Speaker 3: And I'm going to do that what you suggested, get
Speaker 3: rives and analyze the minutes in the day, because that
Speaker 3: is pretty terrifying when you think about seven hours of
Speaker 3: your day no deep work, No wonder people are exhausted
Speaker 3: because they're finding the deep work at night or on
Speaker 3: the weekends, or they're still like trying to find those
Speaker 3: spaces to do it. It's just they're not in their
Speaker 3: normal course of work, and I want you to take action.
Speaker 3: If you've taken any steps, messages, connect on LinkedIn. I
Speaker 3: love hearing about what people are doing. We're going to
Speaker 3: put a link in to inventing Amantha's business into the
Speaker 3: show notes. As well as Amantha's LinkedIn, you can follow her.
Speaker 3: She posts so much good stuff. Amantha, anything else for
Speaker 3: our listeners that you want to close out with.
Speaker 1: I just think start to be more mindful about where
Speaker 1: your time is going. We are all busy, we are
Speaker 1: all time poor, but actually start to pay more attention
Speaker 1: to where you're spending your time.
Speaker 4: Beautiful.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for making the time to come
Speaker 3: on the pod today. And if you enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 3: I'd really encourage you to share it with a friend
Speaker 3: and give us a five star rating on Spotify or Apple.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much Amantha for hanging out ah My Pleasure.
Speaker 1: If you have enjoyed this chat with Shelley, be sure
Speaker 1: to check out her podcast, This is Work.
Speaker 2: If you like.
Speaker 1: Today's Joe, make sure you hit follow on your podcast
Speaker 1: app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I
Speaker 1: Work was recorded on the traditional land of the warringery people,
Speaker 1: part of the Kolhan nation. A big thank you to
Speaker 1: Martin Nimma for doing the sound mix.