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Speaker 1: Today's show is an unusual one because the wonderful Shelley Johnson,

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Speaker 1: host of This Is Work, interviewed me for.

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Speaker 2: Her podcast and has kindly let.

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Speaker 1: Me share the interview with you. In this chat, we

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Speaker 1: explore some of the counterintuitive strategies to achieving genuine productivity,

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Speaker 1: the kinds that don't leave you feeling burnt out by

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Speaker 1: the day's end. You will learn why stopping mid sentence

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Speaker 1: might be your productivity superpower, how splashing cold water on

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Speaker 1: your face could save your afternoon slump, and why most

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Speaker 1: of us are spending seven hours a day on what

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Speaker 1: I call counterfeit productivity. So whether you're struggling with energy dips,

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Speaker 1: battling burnout, or simply trying to focus on what truly

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Speaker 1: matters in your work, this conversation will give you some practical,

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Speaker 1: science backed strategies that you can implement today.

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Speaker 3: Amantha, thank you for coming back on the show. It's

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Speaker 3: great to have this conversation with you.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to be here. I loved our last

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Speaker 1: conversation oh so deep. We went so many different places.

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Speaker 1: But today today I.

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Speaker 3: Have been thinking about your work and the combination of

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Speaker 3: your focus on productivity as well as health, and I

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Speaker 3: think it's really interesting the link between those two things,

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Speaker 3: how important one is for the other.

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Speaker 4: So we're going to go there today. We're going to talk.

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Speaker 3: About how we build these health habits, how we be

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Speaker 3: more productive. It's just something we all want. And I

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Speaker 3: want to start off with a question I have for

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Speaker 3: you around sometimes productivity is counterintuitive, like the things that

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Speaker 3: we think will make us productive sometimes don't, and the

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Speaker 3: things that make us productive that we're like, wait, what

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Speaker 3: does that actually work. What's the most counterproductive productivity tip

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Speaker 3: that's helped you.

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Speaker 2: I would say.

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Speaker 1: It would be I've heard it referred to as the

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Speaker 1: Hemingway trick, and other people refer to it as parking

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Speaker 1: on a downhill slope. And I think I first heard

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Speaker 1: it from Adam Grant or Rachel Botsman. It's something they

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Speaker 1: both use. And what it involves is when you're wrapping

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Speaker 1: up your work for the day, Intuitively, you kind of

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Speaker 1: you want to find closure, you want to finish the

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Speaker 1: task that you were doing. But when you start your

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Speaker 1: work again in the morning, if you finish something and

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Speaker 1: you're starting afresh on a brand new task, that is

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Speaker 1: a big cause of procrastination. And so the Hemingway trick

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Speaker 1: involves actually stopping when you're halfway through something. Why it's

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Speaker 1: called the Hemingway trick is that Ernest Hemingway used to

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Speaker 1: stop writing mid paragraph or even mid sentence, so that

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Speaker 1: it made starting again the next day really easy and

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Speaker 1: really easy to get into float. So, for example, how

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Speaker 1: I'm using it literally right now, I'm on deadline for

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Speaker 1: my fifth book, and every morning I spend the first

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Speaker 1: one to three hours writing and researching, and so when

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Speaker 1: I wrap up my writing mid morning, I will never

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Speaker 1: finish at the end of a chapter. I will always

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Speaker 1: finish halfway through something, and it makes starting again.

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Speaker 2: Really really easy in the morning. It sounds as you're talking.

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Speaker 3: If people can see my face, I'm like smiling, but

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Speaker 3: inside I'm cringing, like I.

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Speaker 4: Feel like I've got goose bunds, just thinking about like, no,

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Speaker 4: you can't, you can't finish midway through a sentence.

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Speaker 3: Did that first start make you feel weird? Like were

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Speaker 3: you feeling as uncomfortable as I am, because I've like

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Speaker 3: got that hebe Gebi's feeling.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, no, you must finish that particular task.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what it is weird. But when you

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Speaker 1: feel just how good it feels in the morning, because

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Speaker 1: I find starting something very hard. I mean, jen Ai

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Speaker 1: makes it easier to prompt you in different directions, but

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Speaker 1: writing can often feel like hard work when you're on

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Speaker 1: a deadline and I try to write a thousand words

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Speaker 1: a day, and if I was writing like a project

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Speaker 1: that didn't involve a lot of research, it's an easier

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Speaker 1: target to hit because you know, I've got lots of

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Speaker 1: practice writing, and I find it, you know, perhaps easier

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Speaker 1: than most people, simply because I practice a lot, but.

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Speaker 2: I just love it.

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Speaker 1: Every morning I'm like, oh great, I'm straight in and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, this is where I finished and it wasn't finished,

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Speaker 1: and it's just so easy to get started.

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Speaker 3: Well, I love that because that is counterintuitive.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't think to do that.

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Speaker 3: I would think that that would make me feel like

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Speaker 3: I hadn't finished my day the day before. And so

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Speaker 3: just knowing that that is a technique that can work,

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Speaker 3: that can get you over because I absolutely know that

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Speaker 3: feeling of starting something.

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Speaker 4: Feels like that big lift.

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Speaker 3: That's the resistance we feel in the morning, especially if

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Speaker 3: it's something like weighty, like writing, for example, if or

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Speaker 3: thinking about a chapter you're writing. It can feel really

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Speaker 3: heavy just going from like the blank page staring at

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Speaker 3: you with the cursor just blinking, going oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: here we go to like actually starting where you've already

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Speaker 3: got a roll on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's the best.

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Speaker 1: So that right now is I would say the number

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Speaker 1: one productivity strategy that is helping me get shit done.

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Speaker 4: Love it.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to try it, even though it's making me

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Speaker 3: feel weird just talking about it.

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Speaker 4: I need to try this.

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Speaker 3: So I want to know, just speaking of your writing,

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Speaker 3: and one thing I'm finding at the moment for me personally,

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Speaker 3: but I know a lot of our listeners who are

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Speaker 3: knowledge workers who are working either from home or in

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Speaker 3: an office. One thing I'm hearing a lot is that

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Speaker 3: people want more creativity. They want to be able to

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Speaker 3: be more creative. What are some things that you've been doing,

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Speaker 3: especially in your writing process, Because writing is such a

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Speaker 3: deep work and if people haven't spent time, like you've

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Speaker 3: written so many books, you're onto your fifth book, the

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Speaker 3: level of depths that goes into it, as well as

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Speaker 3: creative energy is massive.

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Speaker 4: It's huge.

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Speaker 3: Are there things that you're doing to help build that

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Speaker 3: level of creativity?

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Speaker 4: In your work.

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Speaker 1: Something I've been doing a lot in the last few

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Speaker 1: months is using voice mode on chat GPT and essentially

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Speaker 1: going for a walk. It feels like going for a

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Speaker 1: walk with a buddy or a collaborator. And what my

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Speaker 1: process is is I probably do this once every day

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Speaker 1: or two, where I'll be nutting something out, Like at

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Speaker 1: the moment, I'm struggling with how to structure the book,

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Speaker 1: like i'd when I put in the book proposal to Penguin,

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Speaker 1: I had a pretty clear idea, but as I'm probably

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Speaker 1: about I'm thirty thousand words in now or thereabouts, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this structure is working, and that's

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Speaker 1: a creative problem to solve in my mind. So what

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Speaker 1: I'll do is, and I've done a few walks where

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Speaker 1: I've been trying to nut this out, is I will

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Speaker 1: prompt the AI to think in a certain way, Like

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Speaker 1: sometimes I'll prompt it to, you know, think like certain

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Speaker 1: writers that have structured.

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Speaker 2: Their books in really interesting ways.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll just prompt it to think like a fellow

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Speaker 1: organizational psychologist.

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Speaker 2: So sort of depending on what.

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Speaker 1: Persona I think is going to be most useful for

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Speaker 1: my little brainstorm and I will on voice mode, and

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Speaker 1: you know, for listeners that haven't used voice mode before,

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Speaker 1: it's really easy to do if you just download the

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Speaker 1: chat GPT app and then you press the little icon

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Speaker 1: that looks like a sort of a sound wave kind

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Speaker 1: of icon, and you just start talking and you have

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Speaker 1: a conversation.

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Speaker 2: And I have.

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Speaker 1: Found that really really helpful. I will have like a

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Speaker 1: half hour long conversation as I walk around the streets

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Speaker 1: of my local area just chatting, and I feel a

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Speaker 1: bit stupid, but then I'm like, well, if people are

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Speaker 1: seeing me chatting, they'll probably just think I'm talking to

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Speaker 1: someone on the phone, So it's all good and that

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Speaker 1: really helps me nut things out and play around with ideas.

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Speaker 1: It's like I do like to do that with real people.

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Speaker 1: And funnily enough, yesterday I texted a couple of mates

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Speaker 1: who I really respect their thinking and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: get and I'm like, hey, can we meet for a coffee?

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Speaker 1: I just want to bounce around some ideas with you,

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Speaker 1: and one of them I still haven't heard back from.

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Speaker 1: So it's like the AI is always there and that's

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Speaker 1: really handy.

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Speaker 3: Very reliable and consistent and timely with their responses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly and told to.

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Speaker 3: Me about the book you're writing, because it's interesting, like

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Speaker 3: your focus. You've done so much in the space of work,

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Speaker 3: what's this next book focusing on.

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Speaker 1: So something I found last year in twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: is that in I Reckon, almost every conversation I had

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Speaker 1: with clients of Inventium, there was change, fatigue, there was exhaustion,

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Speaker 1: there was burnout. There was a lot of retrenchments, where

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Speaker 1: inevitably what happens after retrenchments, particularly large scale ones, is

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Speaker 1: that the people that are left in the organization have

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Speaker 1: to do quite a lot more work and that's really hard.

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Speaker 1: And so I was hearing this in conversation every single week,

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Speaker 1: and also for myself, I completely utterly hit burnout several

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Speaker 1: times last year, and it felt like it was this

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Speaker 1: universal problem and not one that was getting better, And

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Speaker 1: so I became really interested in how could we overcome this.

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Speaker 2: It felt like a.

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Speaker 1: Chronic depletion epidemic, and I thought, what are the ways

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Speaker 1: that we can do this? And the book is essentially

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Speaker 1: about energy and overcoming this chronic depletion and obviously at

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Speaker 1: its most extreme, burnout.

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Speaker 2: So that's what the book is all about.

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Speaker 3: It's so interesting to me if I just think about

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Speaker 3: your last couple of books, so time Wise, which is

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Speaker 3: all about productivity and all the things you've learned from

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Speaker 3: your amazing guests on how I work and your own

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Speaker 3: insights into that whole space. And then if I think

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Speaker 3: about health habit where you're thinking about, okay, what is

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Speaker 3: it that makes feel healthy and well? And then like

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Speaker 3: this next step into the space of what is it

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Speaker 3: that like gives people energy and how do we navigate

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Speaker 3: this burnout? And I'm almost like thinking about it going

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Speaker 3: if you and tell me if I'm totally off base here,

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Speaker 3: please Amani, because you're.

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Speaker 4: Like you might be like this is you're just butchering

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Speaker 4: my work, but like, as I'm.

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Speaker 3: Reverse engineering it, I'm thinking about Okay, if we think

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Speaker 3: about it as a pyramid, it's like your energy levels

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Speaker 3: are those things that sustain you to do difficult things

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Speaker 3: in the long term, like that feeling of energy that

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Speaker 3: you get from work or the depletion like I think

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Speaker 3: for anyone who's listened who's had kids, like I remember

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Speaker 3: that feeling early days, I reckon I've only just started

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Speaker 3: to get past and of the depletion you have when

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Speaker 3: your kids are waking up every night, and like you're

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Speaker 3: trying to juggle your full time job and your roll

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Speaker 3: as a parent and all that stuff, the energy you

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Speaker 3: need to be healthy, like to actually exercise to do

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Speaker 3: and like we know they're all connected, right, Like exercise

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Speaker 3: gives us energy and all those things, or eating healthy

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Speaker 3: gives us the energy we need. But then all of

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Speaker 3: that stuff enables us to be productive. As I'm just

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Speaker 3: sounding this out, does that resonate with you in any

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Speaker 3: way or you're like no, no, set all right down.

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Speaker 2: No, it does. It does.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I'm obsessed with what I refer to

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Speaker 1: was what is the minimum viable dose or the MVD,

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Speaker 1: because I think so much of what is out there

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Speaker 1: is just quite unattainable for a lot of people. It

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Speaker 1: is just not feasible to spend an hour exercising every

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Speaker 1: day like that is really hard, and particularly particularly when

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Speaker 1: you've got young kids as well, Like I mean, how

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Speaker 1: do you even leave the.

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Speaker 2: House, let alone naturally expend.

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Speaker 3: Energy get out of the house, Like this morning, I'll

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Speaker 3: just tell you this morning, trying to leave the houses.

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Speaker 4: We got on late because studying my.

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Speaker 3: Daughter couldn't find a glasses. I'm like, I don't understand

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Speaker 3: that this happens every single day. Every single day we

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Speaker 3: can't find the glasses, and then we're just like all

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Speaker 3: these juggles of things. I'm like, you get out of

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Speaker 3: the house, you know, I've run a marathon, Like when

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Speaker 3: would I get time to do an hour of exercise

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Speaker 3: in addition to my however many hours.

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Speaker 4: Of work you do and all the things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think about this like I try to

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Speaker 1: when I'm writing, you know, I kind of I have

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Speaker 1: a few different people in mind that are almost.

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Speaker 2: Like the avatars.

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Speaker 1: Or you know, the icps, if you like to speak,

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Speaker 1: marketing of who I'm writing for, and I think about

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Speaker 1: their world and their life and anything that is going

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Speaker 1: to take a lot of time to boost their energy.

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Speaker 2: I'm just like nah.

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Speaker 1: And as I'm researching it, like I mean, I go,

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Speaker 1: I go down so many dead ends where I'll you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of get to the end of reading a few

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Speaker 1: pieces of research and I'm like, oh, man, that intervention

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Speaker 1: lasted for six weeks and that was an hour a day.

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Speaker 2: That is not realistic. I can't write about that. So

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Speaker 2: instead I'm like, where are.

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Speaker 1: Those things that will give us those quick bursts of energy?

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Speaker 1: That are just really doable for the average person who

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Speaker 1: is chronically depleted and presumably very very busy and time poor.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I want to dig into that for a

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Speaker 3: sec because I love what you said about some of

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Speaker 3: the things that we hear are just completely unattainable or unrealistic.

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Speaker 4: And there's that trend.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's still going around, but it

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Speaker 3: was definitely very present in like twenty twenty three, where

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Speaker 3: the morning routine started to really ramp up and everyone's like,

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Speaker 3: everyone's like, you have to do this morning routine and

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Speaker 3: it will take you three hours, and you must meditate

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Speaker 3: for fifty minutes, and you must have an ice plunge,

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Speaker 3: and then you have to have three boiled eggs. If

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Speaker 3: you don't have three, you didn't get enough protein. Like

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Speaker 3: it's just so extreme, and I like, look at it,

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Speaker 3: and the people who talk about morning routines like these

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Speaker 3: like solopreneurs that are out there just being like, this

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Speaker 3: is how you sell stuff and this is if you

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Speaker 3: want a win, this is how you win every day.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't even.

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Speaker 2: They're man with no kids.

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Speaker 3: They are they always are, But what are your thoughts

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Speaker 3: on on some of those like common things we see

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Speaker 3: out there around the morning routines. And I mean, for me,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't feel like I'm a morning person

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Speaker 3: at all, Like I'm a sloth in the morning.

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Speaker 4: I'm just like I'm dye. I just wake up. I'm like,

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Speaker 4: I feel like someone's just hit me in the face.

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Speaker 4: Like what are some of.

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Speaker 3: Those things you see that are unattainable? And then what

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Speaker 3: is that their minimum what did you call it? Minimum dose?

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Speaker 2: Minimum viable dose? And these things?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I yeah, I mean morning routines that

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Speaker 1: go on for hours. Really, they do irritate me because

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Speaker 1: like who's got time for that?

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Speaker 2: You know, like, yeah, who's got time for that?

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Speaker 1: Unless you are young and you have no kids, and

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Speaker 1: you're like and they you know, they're typically it's cliche

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Speaker 1: to say stereotyping to day, but they're generally men in

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Speaker 1: their twenties and maybe in their thirties. And I look,

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Speaker 1: I do like rituals, and what I like about rituals

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Speaker 1: and also habit stacking, where we're kind of doing one

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Speaker 1: thing and then learning to automatically associate that with doing

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Speaker 1: the next thing, is it just reduces cognitive load. So

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Speaker 1: I like mourning rituals from that perspect but I don't

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Speaker 1: like ones that are unrealistic. So I find that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, because of the space that I'm in,

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Speaker 1: I will often get asked, what's your morning ritual? And

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Speaker 1: I don't have one that I do every single day,

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Speaker 1: But I do have some rituals that I do most

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Speaker 1: days because I think that that's attainable. So for me,

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Speaker 1: I would most days, I would exercise for about thirty

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Speaker 1: to forty minutes first thing in the morning.

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Speaker 2: And unlike you, Shelley, I'm very much a morning person.

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Speaker 4: Are you a lark?

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Speaker 2: Is that a lark?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yes, that is my time.

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Speaker 3: Do you and you wake up? I've heard you talk

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Speaker 3: about waking up at a certain time every day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I will wake up at about six am every day,

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Speaker 1: and I give like, if it's the weekend, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it'd be nice to lay in bed a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: I typically wouldn't do that past about six thirty, which

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Speaker 1: I feel like sounds very rigid of me. But the

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Speaker 1: reason why I do it is because if I do, say,

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Speaker 1: sleep until eight am, and then I do that on

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Speaker 1: Saturday and Sunday, and then Monday, I'm like, well, it's

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Speaker 1: a workday, I'm going to wake up at six am. Again,

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Speaker 1: I'm essentially giving myself what researchers call social jet lag,

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Speaker 1: where it's like I've flown to New Zealand and then

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Speaker 1: back again, and I've arrived home on Monday morning, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's a two hour time difference. This

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Speaker 1: is totally throwing out my body clock. But most of

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Speaker 1: us think nothing of it because we're not traveling, we're

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Speaker 1: just in our home. But the impact that that has

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Speaker 1: on your energy and on your ability to think clearly

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Speaker 1: and function at your best is really huge. And so

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Speaker 1: for me, the idea of sleeping in an extra couple

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Speaker 1: of hours feeling versus feeling really good throughout the day

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Speaker 1: for those first few days of the week, it's like

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Speaker 1: that's not a good trade off for me. Other people

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Speaker 1: might be like, the sleeping is worth it to feel

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Speaker 1: a bit crappy on Monday and Tuesday and kind of

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Speaker 1: getting into the rhythm on Wednesday, But for me, it's

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Speaker 1: not a good trade off. So that's why I typically

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Speaker 1: wake within a half hour window.

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Speaker 3: I also think it's interesting like when people talk about

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Speaker 3: the reason why they do a certain thing, like when

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Speaker 3: I saw you post about it on LinkedIn, actually about

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Speaker 3: the half an hour wake up and the impact that

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Speaker 3: can have on your energy levels. And I know for myself,

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Speaker 3: like I have a pretty consistent wake up time, manly

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Speaker 3: because the kids wake me up at the same time

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Speaker 3: every day. But I agree that if you know why

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Speaker 3: you're doing something and you know the trade off, like

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Speaker 3: you said, the trade off for you if you had

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Speaker 3: an extra two hour sleep in on a Saturday, but

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Speaker 3: on Monday you feel like crap, well, that is not

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Speaker 3: a good I'm not happy with that decision. I'm not

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Speaker 3: happy with the impact that has on my body and

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Speaker 3: my ability to do the rest of my week.

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Speaker 4: I love knowing that why.

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Speaker 3: And for me, like even just thinking about you talking

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Speaker 3: about this minimum viable dose. One thing that's really helped

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Speaker 3: me with my energy levels because I've never been a

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Speaker 3: big exercise I like, I've always found it hard has

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Speaker 3: just been doing a twenty minute thing on my app

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Speaker 3: on my phone. I have the kick app and those

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Speaker 3: twenty minutes or the like, I'm that's doable. I can

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Speaker 3: commit to that consistently. What I can't commit to is

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Speaker 3: like the like rigorous steps that take three hours that

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Speaker 3: you're like, oh gosh, this is completely over the top,

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Speaker 3: and what is the return on that? Whereas I feel

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Speaker 3: the return on that twenty minutes consistently every day for

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Speaker 3: an extended period rather than these like six weeks of

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Speaker 3: like intensive stuff that you end up just dropping off

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Speaker 3: because it's not sustainable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, something that helps me with that, because I

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Speaker 1: also think the idea of doing something every day has

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Speaker 1: its pro cons. Like in a sense, if you say

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Speaker 1: to yourself, I exercise every day, then there's no decision

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Speaker 1: to be made, like you can't argue with yourself, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, should I exercise today or not? Well, you do,

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Speaker 1: but where that can go awry and psychologists call it

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Speaker 1: the what the hell effect, where you're like, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to exercise every day, or I'm going to eat healthy

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Speaker 1: every day, or you know, avoid sugar or whatever your

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Speaker 1: kind of goal is. And then let's say you're going

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Speaker 1: really well, but on day six, the day is chaos.

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Speaker 1: It turns to crap, and you know, you either I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you're trying to quit sugar, you have

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Speaker 1: all this chocolate at night, or you just don't have

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Speaker 1: time to exercise and then you think, oh, what the hell,

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Speaker 1: I may as well not exercise, or I may as

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Speaker 1: well just you know, go back to chocolate. But what

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Speaker 1: research has found is that if we can give ourselves

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Speaker 1: hall passes, and you know, like people might have heard

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Speaker 1: the term hall pass in relation to cheating on your

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Speaker 1: partner in a marriage, but this is in the context

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Speaker 1: of behavior behavior change. So research has found that if

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Speaker 1: you give yourself a couple of hall passes a week,

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Speaker 1: So if you're trying to do a daily habit like

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Speaker 1: exercise every day, but say to yourself, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: give myself two hall passes a week. So basically, if

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Speaker 1: there are two days during the week where I just

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Speaker 1: I just can't do it because you know, stuff happens,

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Speaker 1: then that's okay and you can feel okay about that.

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Speaker 1: And if we do that, if we adopt the hall

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Speaker 1: past strategy, ironically, it makes us more likely to achieve

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Speaker 1: our goals and also it makes us a lot more

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Speaker 1: resilient in that we're able to bounce back from those setbacks.

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Speaker 2: If we do have a day.

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Speaker 1: Where we don't exercise, we're much more likely to get

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Speaker 1: back on the wagon the following day. So hall passes,

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Speaker 1: I very much recommend it as a good strategy to

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Speaker 1: use if you're trying to create a new habit.

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Speaker 3: And you're so right, it's like that throw in the

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Speaker 3: towel if you like, I think I think about Easter right,

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Speaker 3: We've just at the.

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Speaker 4: Time this recording is the Easter long weekend just gone.

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Speaker 3: And like if you're on a health if you're trying

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Speaker 3: to not have too much sugar, but over the weekend

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Speaker 3: you go on fifty Easter egg hunts with your family,

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Speaker 3: You're like, the temptation is, well, I've just actually ruined

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Speaker 3: three months worth of work, So I don't like throwing

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Speaker 3: in the towel and the what the hell? I can

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Speaker 3: definitely relate to those kind of sentiments. I want to

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Speaker 3: know whether there's been things that you've done in that

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Speaker 3: minimum viable dose that have been helpful. So you talked

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Speaker 3: about getting up at the same time, what other habits

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Speaker 3: have you kind of stacked up that some of our

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Speaker 3: listeners who are time poor, who are very busy, and

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Speaker 3: we're going to talk about busy in a sec what

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Speaker 3: are things that help you?

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Speaker 1: Amanther, I find that state changes always help me a lot.

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Speaker 1: I am at my computer, at my desk for a

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Speaker 1: large part of days if I'm not out with clients

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Speaker 1: or in podcast, udioor keynote speaking. But like, I spent

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Speaker 1: so many hours at my desk, and if I am

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Speaker 1: starting to lack in energy, one of the best things

439
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: I found that helps is just changing my state. So

440
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: changing my state might be as simple as standing up

441
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: and stretching for a few minutes, And there's great research

442
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,919
Speaker 1: to show that that's a really effective way to improve energy.

443
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: Like you don't even have to get your heart right up,

444
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: just do a few stretches and sit back down again.

445
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: I actually put.

446
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: Out a call on LinkedIn to go people, what do

447
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 1: you do when you're running out of energy? And I've

448
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: got some really interesting suggestions. And I love doing that

449
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 1: because then I'll go away and hunt down or was

450
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: it actually science to support what people are doing? And

451
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 1: I remember Don Price, who I know has been on

452
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: your show several times. He suggested splashing cold water on

453
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: your face, Like, oh, that sounds really good, because I

454
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: had been researching cold showers and what is the minimum

455
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 1: amount of cold water immersion? Because like, there's no way

456
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: I'm doing an ice bath, but I can have a

457
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: cold shower for a few seconds at the end of

458
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 1: a hot one, and I'm like, I wonder if cold

459
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: water has a similar impact, And it turns out it does.

460
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: And so that's another example of just a really really

461
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: great but easy to do and quick to do state

462
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 1: change where if you're feeling like your energy is waning,

463
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: just go to the bathroom, splash some water on your face,

464
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: cold water, and it will actually improve your energy, and

465
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: you'll come back and you can sit at your desk

466
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: and you will feel very different to how you did

467
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: when you left your desk.

468
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 3: I think when you're talking about the cold water, I

469
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 3: can vividly remember my mom. She like, I'm one of

470
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 3: five kids, and we would do these big family holidays

471
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 3: and we would drive for a really long time to

472
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 3: like Queensland from Newcastle and at the time be like

473
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 3: a twelve hour plus trip with five kids, and I

474
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 3: remember Mum in the driver's seat. We would get twenty

475
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 3: minutes out of Newcastle, Lamantha like we're hardly on the

476
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 3: road at all, and she would get a bottle of

477
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 3: cold water and tip it over her head and like,

478
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 3: and I would have been like early high school at

479
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 3: this point, I'm like, we are in for a bad time,

480
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: Like she's doing a state change twenty minutes into a.

481
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 4: Twelve hour drive. This is not good. This is not

482
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 4: a good time, but I do.

483
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: It's funny how when you hear other people's strategies, it

484
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 3: gives you these ideas. And that's partly what I would

485
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 3: love listeners to take away from today is going okay,

486
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 3: as you're hearing these strategies, Amantha's suggesting try some stuff

487
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 3: this week because.

488
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 4: You need to know it.

489
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 3: Not every single thing will work for you, but some

490
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 3: of this will, and going okay, what is my little strategy?

491
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 3: Is it stretching in between? Is it standing up? Is

492
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: it actually going outside for a bit? Or is it

493
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 3: the cold I swore the water on the face. Do

494
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: the something quick that can help test? What's going to

495
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,719
Speaker 3: give me that lift in energy?

496
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 4: I want it.

497
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 3: This might seem like a silly question, but sometimes when

498
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 3: we talk about this idea of energy, I just love

499
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 3: if you could explain, like when you think about what

500
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 3: does energy look like when we've got it and what does.

501
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 4: It look like when we don't have it?

502
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 3: Because I think it can be like this ethereal concept,

503
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 3: what does energy mean to you when we have it?

504
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 4: And when we don't.

505
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: Well.

506
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: I would say it's easy to think about when we

507
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: don't have energy, because I think there are several times

508
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: during someone's typical day where they're feeling it really common

509
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: experience to wake up and.

510
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 2: Have been in.

511
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: Bed for eight hours, like that's how much sleep we're

512
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: meant to get, right, but we wake up and we're like,

513
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: I feel like I haven't slept, I feel like my

514
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: sleep was not of good quality, and I feel exhausted,

515
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: and I don't feel.

516
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: Ready to start the day.

517
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: Sleep researchers call it sleep inertia. It's very very common.

518
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: I think that's the first point where people lack the energy.

519
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: I think that the second common point, and like, and

520
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: tell me if you can relate to this is like

521
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: it's nine o'clock or thereabouts, time to start the workday,

522
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: and you're just like, I just I don't feel motivated.

523
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: I don't know how I'm going to get into flow.

524
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: I just I feel really unfocused. That's another point where

525
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: energy is really low. Typically, then you know, as we

526
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: head towards lunch, generally for a lot of people, the

527
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: sort of the nine to twelve period not too bad.

528
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes we are feeling a little bit distractable in that

529
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: mid morning time where we go get a coffee or

530
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: take a little break. But then after lunch is when

531
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: another big energy are energy sort of like you know,

532
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: exhaustion milestone I guess happens. Psychologists call it the post

533
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: lunch dip. For the rest of us, it's like it's

534
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: that time at about two or three in the afternoon

535
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: when you're your lunch choices have potentially led to a

536
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: blood glucose crash, and you're feeling pretty ordinary and you're

537
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: heading for some sort of sugary snack.

538
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 2: To give you a short lived boost of energy.

539
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: You're probably not thinking at your best in the afternoon,

540
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: and then of course at the end of the day

541
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: there's that exhaustion and particularly you know.

542
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: If you've got things to do, if you've got.

543
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: Kids to keep alive and feed and bathe and all

544
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, and you're just like, ah, I

545
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: can't I don't know the energy for this. Or maybe

546
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: you're someone that has plans at night and you think

547
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: to yourself, I really wish I was having a night

548
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: in tonight instead. It's another really common source of just

549
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: lacking energy. And then even later on when the day

550
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: is over and if you are a parent, the kids

551
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: are in bed and you just find yourself glued to

552
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: social media because that is all your brain can handle,

553
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: that sort of passive distraction. Like to me, those are

554
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: the points that I hear again and again that that's

555
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: where we're feeling depleted on a.

556
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 3: Typical day, even just hearing you say the social media

557
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 3: like kind of like the distracted scrolling. I find I

558
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: get into that habit when my energy is low, where

559
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 3: I'll just like mindlessly scroll, And like last night I

560
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: found myself doing that. I was like, really wrecked. It's

561
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 3: just been it like hectic couple of weeks, and I

562
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 3: was like, and I don't find I often do that

563
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: at night, Like I was just like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling,

564
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: And then I found the weird thing was I was

565
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: so tired, but then I could not go to sleep

566
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 3: for so long, and I'm I like, it's weird. The

567
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 3: going back to this counterintuitive thing about energy. You can

568
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: be really depleted and have low energy and do and

569
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 3: like do these mindless things, but then they actually triggered

570
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 3: the reverse impact where you can't then get to sleep

571
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: or you don't have that deep What are your thoughts

572
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: on the link between those kind of activities that we're

573
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 3: doing to distract ourselves and actually how they exacerbate the

574
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 3: exact thing we're trying to avoid.

575
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

576
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: Scientists would call this tired but wired, and it's really

577
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: common where you're feeling exhausted but your brain is feeling wired.

578
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 2: You know.

579
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: I find like screens are bad for this. I think

580
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: most of us now know that the blue light that

581
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: is emitted from our phones and screens suppresses melatonin, which

582
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: is the hormone that we.

583
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: Need to actually get to sleep.

584
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: And so you know, a good rule is to get

585
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: off your screen at least an hour before the time where.

586
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: You would like your body to be asleep. So that

587
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: is really helpful.

588
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: But I think, you know, like for me in my

589
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: own life, I just know I need that hour before

590
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: bed where I'm just doing very passive, relaxing things. I'm

591
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: sure I would be well served to start a meditation habit,

592
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: but it is just like it is still beyond me.

593
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: I feel like I do other things that are meditative.

594
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: But you know, certainly a lot of friends of mine,

595
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: a lot of people that I've interviewed on how I work,

596
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: so many of them have some sort of a meditation habit,

597
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: and it is a really great way to calm down

598
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: your brain and slow down your heart rate.

599
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: I don't know for me, like I'm.

600
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: An AURA ring wearer, so I you know, tracking various

601
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,959
Speaker 1: you know, various markers. And I know for me, like

602
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: on those nights where I don't wind down, or maybe

603
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: I've gone out and it's been like a really stimulating

604
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: conversation with friends, and I come home like feeling really wired,

605
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: but in a positive emotion way, as opposed to we've

606
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: just been in a you know, in a doomscroll loop

607
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: on TikTok or Instagram, and I will look at my

608
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: AURA score the next day and it's like, oh, your

609
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: resting heart rate was up when you went to bed.

610
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: So I very much.

611
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: Notice it in the quality of my sleep because it'll

612
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: affect the quality of my sleep when I'm.

613
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: You know, tracking it.

614
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: But I always try to build it in an hour

615
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: before bed where I'm just doing something really passive, like

616
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: reading fiction.

617
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: That's a really.

618
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: Good discipline too, Like I the hour before bed, I.

619
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 4: Reckon that feels that feels long for me, Like I'm.

620
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 3: Like, but also I read.

621
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 4: All my books on my phone, so.

622
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: I'm a massive fiction reader, but I have Kindle on

623
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: my phone, and so when I'm going to bed this,

624
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: I know, this is so bad, Like I know everything

625
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 3: in me is like it.

626
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 2: Is the worst.

627
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 3: But it's so practical, Like I'm like, I don't have

628
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: to like buy the book. I just have it on

629
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: my phone whenever I want it, and I would sit,

630
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 3: you know, for an hour every night, just like in

631
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 3: bed with my phone up to my face, just reading.

632
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 3: And I'm I'm always amazed that i still wake up

633
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: every morning.

634
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 4: I'm so tired.

635
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I really I hate that for you. Shelly.

636
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: Do you own an actual kindle?

637
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 4: No? No, would that be better?

638
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 2: I think you need to get an actual kindle.

639
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So from most of the research that I'm across,

640
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: the light on the kindle, particularly if you're in dark

641
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: mode on the kindle, as i am, so I would

642
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: mostly read my kindle in bed at night, but I'd

643
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: never read my phone at night, just because the light

644
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: that it's emitting is very different. One light is telling

645
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: you to stay awake, another is not.

646
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 4: Is your phone out of your bedroom?

647
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 2: Yeah it is?

648
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for years it charges in the corridor. So

649
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: we've got a little charging station, there's no phones allowed

650
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: in the bedroom.

651
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: That again, this is a discipline, And it's really interesting.

652
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: I mean thinking about this word discipline a lot lately

653
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: because we've been working with teams, some really high performing

654
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 3: teams who discipline is a really import and part of

655
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 3: how they perform well. And then just thinking about you going, okay,

656
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: I've got this hour before bed.

657
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, that's a long time.

658
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 3: And then and then the phone's in the corridor again,

659
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 3: another discipline that you've been doing for years, and then

660
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: waking up within half an hour. But these are like

661
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 3: they're simple, but they're not easy, Like it is a

662
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: full habit change, Like I'm thinking about how I and

663
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 3: I'm going to do. I actually haven't getting to publicly

664
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 3: commit to getting a kindle and getting off my phone

665
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 3: because I know when I've got my phone right here

666
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 3: as I'm sleeping, I can I just like beate myself.

667
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 4: But I'm not. I haven't made any changes.

668
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing I mean, because you talk about discipline,

669
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 1: but for me, because I've been doing these things for

670
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: so long years, there's no discipline involved. It's more it

671
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 1: feels weird when I don't do those things like very

672
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: occasionally I will sleep with my phone next to me, like,

673
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: for example, if my daughter is at a sleepover and

674
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: I feel an obligation to just have my phone not

675
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 1: on silence, but just just in case, because it would

676
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: be a crappy experience for the other parents if they

677
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: needed to get hold of me, and they never do,

678
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of irrational, but I feel like it's

679
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: a responsible thing to do. Or very occasionally where I've

680
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: got a really early morning and i want double alarm,

681
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: so I've got an old school alarm clock that I

682
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: you know that there's no scrolling on that alarm clock,

683
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: and that is there to help me tell the time

684
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: and wake me up if I need to wake up

685
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: at a certain time. But sometimes I'll bring the phone

686
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: in just for double alarm in case something goes wrong

687
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: with the power. But otherwise they just take no effort

688
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: because there are things that I've been doing forever, like

689
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: it really doesn't take a lot of effort to wake

690
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: within a half hour window, because my body finds it

691
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: hard not to wake within that window because I've been

692
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: doing it for so long, and it just feels really

693
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: unnatural and strange to sleep with my phone in my bed,

694
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: like it's you know, it's it's like I don't know,

695
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: as if I'm sleeping with the world's brightest TV.

696
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: Right next to me, like that just that would feel weird, right.

697
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: So I think the more you do it, the less

698
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: discipline it requires.

699
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 4: That's a really good call out.

700
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: Actually, as something as your first kicking off a new habit,

701
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: it will feel like a discipline, but or over time

702
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 3: it just feels normal. And I love that because I'm

703
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 3: like thinking about that, going Okay, cool, That's what I

704
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 3: need some of those things in my life.

705
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 4: I want to take. I want to take a quick break.

706
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 3: When we come back, I want to ask you about

707
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 3: this idea of busy because I think one thing that

708
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 3: you do really well is you're thinking about how do

709
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 3: we be productive and effective, and often that runs counter

710
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 3: to busy culture.

711
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 4: So when we come back, we'll dig into that.

712
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 3: So, Amantha, one thing that I feel like everyone has

713
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: been complaining all about our clients so we work with

714
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: have been complaining about is everyone's busy, but they're not

715
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 3: doing the we don't think they're doing the right world work,

716
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 3: or we're not working on the highest value things. We're

717
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 3: still not achieving our strategy. And I think this very

718
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 3: much links into productivity and how we be productive versus busy.

719
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 3: Can you talk to us about how we can shift

720
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 3: our mindset from being always on the hustle the busyness

721
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: versus working on what is really important?

722
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 4: Wow.

723
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: A new I guess ritual that I have started recently

724
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: is at the start of every month. And this is

725
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: going to sound really simple, but it has helped me

726
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: so much. Is that the start of every month, I

727
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: will think what are the big chunks of work that

728
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: I want to do?

729
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: So really, what are my.

730
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: Big deep work projects that I'm working on? And right

731
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: now the manuscripts are given. That is an everyday task

732
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: that doesn't require thinking. It's just a non negotiable, even

733
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: on weekends. It's literally every single day I write. But

734
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: when it comes to my inventing and work, I think

735
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: about what are the things that are going to get

736
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: me closer to my goals to the company goals, to

737
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: the things that are going to make an impact. And

738
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: I'll typically write down it's typically about four or five things,

739
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: like it might be plan a launch strategy for this

740
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: new product, or you know, finish developing this program, about blah.

741
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: So things that are quite meety, they're probably going to

742
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: be about, you know, two days worth of deep work each,

743
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: let's say thereabouts, and I will have that.

744
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 2: I will pin that as a note.

745
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: I use Apple notes, although I'm sort of between notion

746
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: and Apple notes at the moment, so just my note

747
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: take is a little bit of a mess right now.

748
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: And for the most part, I will timebox, so I'll

749
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: make meetings with myself to do the things that are important.

750
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 2: But then if I haven't done that, and.

751
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: I've got a day where you know, I've got a

752
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: spare two or three hours that is not account by.

753
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: Book writing or by meetings or by.

754
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: Needing to help my team with things, I will go

755
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: to that monthly goal list or task list and I go, Okay,

756
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: what do I need to make progress on? What am

757
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: I feeling like I've got energy for today?

758
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 3: Like?

759
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: Is it a creative task? Is it an analytical task?

760
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: And I will pick one of those things, and I'm like, Okay,

761
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: today I'm going to make progress on this. I'm going

762
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: to dedicate a couple of hours to moving forward on

763
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: this particular goal for the month.

764
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: It sounds so simple and obvious, but I found that.

765
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: It helps me so much because I think, and particularly

766
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 1: when you're a leader in a business, the easiest thing

767
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: is just to be reacting to what everyone else needs

768
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: and to completely lose sight of your own goals, because

769
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: that feels like you're doing a good job. Like if

770
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 1: I'm helping my team troubleshoot various things or helping them

771
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 1: develop a program for a client and I'm helping reduce

772
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: their stress, I feel really good about my and I

773
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, today was a good day. But if

774
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: I did that every day and I didn't go back

775
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: to what am I trying to achieve? And sometimes there'll

776
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: be things that I'm working on solo, so there's nothing

777
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 1: to react to. It's purely just me in charge of

778
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: whether progress gets made or not. It's so easy to

779
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: lose sight of those goals, and so I have a

780
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 1: simple list.

781
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 2: It is pinned.

782
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: I look at it several times a week when I'm

783
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: feeling a little bit distracted or unfocused, or like I've

784
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: got this block of time, how should I be using it?

785
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 1: The easiest thing to do is just to go into

786
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: my inbox and go, I'm just gonna like stuff around

787
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 1: in my inbox and have that false sense of productivity,

788
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: and I can easily just get stuck in there for

789
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: an hour and emerge like not having actually been that productive.

790
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: So that has been one of the single biggest helpers

791
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: in the last few months.

792
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 3: And just hearing you unpack that, to me, I think

793
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 3: about two things. It's like counterfeit productive, like when you're

794
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 3: in the reactive mode, it's this is the worst part

795
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 3: about it. You feel you're being productive. So it's the illusion,

796
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 3: like I feel I've like done all this stuff, I've

797
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 3: like been drawn into I've like smashed out a whole

798
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 3: bunch of emails, I've like connected with a whole bunch

799
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 3: of my team on like stuff that you know has

800
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 3: felt really urgent, But is the importance there if you

801
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: went through an analyze it, like some of the things maybe,

802
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 3: but some of the things definitely not.

803
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 4: And then you go, oh, okay, I.

804
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 3: Feel I've been productive today, but that list of the

805
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 3: most important things is still sitting there with no momentum.

806
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

807
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I love that term catafeite productivity.

808
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: That's cool.

809
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: I call it like false productivity where you feel like

810
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: you're being productive. It's just it's a flawed belief that

811
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: you are, but it feels so good. You know, It's

812
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: like it feels really good archiving emails and you know,

813
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: writing quick responses to things and like getting down to

814
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,959
Speaker 1: inbog zero or something like that. You know, the way

815
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 1: email has been designed, it's gamified, and so it's really addictive,

816
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: and I must say, like it's still my achilles heel.

817
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: But I do.

818
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 1: I am one thing that's actually helped me in terms

819
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: of stay out of my inbox more is I mean,

820
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: aside from all the obvious things in terms of just

821
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: you know, Superhuman is the email client that I use.

822
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: I have it closed for most of the day. I

823
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: also have we also use Microsoft teams that invent hum

824
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: and we'll you know, communicate a bit on chat. I'll

825
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: generally have that closed. I'll open it a handful of

826
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: times a day. But my amazing EA Gem she's in

827
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: my inbox during the day, multiple times a day, and.

828
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 2: She's responding to things.

829
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: She's even like drafting email responses from me for me

830
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: to approve or edit and then send. Like essentially, the

831
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: more she's in my inbox, the easier my life is.

832
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of training myself to go if I'm

833
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: in my inbox too much. I'm probably making gem feel

834
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: like I'm not valuing the stuff that she's doing in

835
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: my inbox, which is amazing, and so kind of thinking

836
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: about how my behavior impacts someone else negatively has actually

837
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: been quite a good motivator, you know, out of my

838
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: need to be helpful.

839
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 2: So that's it, and it's kind.

840
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: I do think that last line of the need to

841
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 3: be helpful. I think that sometimes is where this pattern

842
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 3: towards busy and reactive comes in, because we feel we're

843
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 3: being helpful.

844
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 4: And like, I'll.

845
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 3: Speak for myself, I won't speak for you, but my

846
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 3: ego likes that. Like I liked to feel like really

847
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 3: needed and really like, oh yeah, like I really helped

848
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: helped a lot of people today.

849
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 4: But I'm like, but did I actually help make an impact?

850
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 3: And I've been coming back a lot, and I know

851
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 3: you've done like a bit of work on this around

852
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 3: really understanding when you think about the work, what is

853
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 3: the impact of that work and does that impact actually

854
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 3: push the business forward, push the organization forward, or is

855
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 3: it just perpetuating this cycle of the false productivity that

856
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 3: you mentioned. I know I am speaking of productivity. I'm

857
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 3: looking at the big glaring clock that says there's three

858
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 3: minutes left that we have in the last few minutes

859
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 3: we have. I would just love are there any other

860
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 3: things that you would love listeners to know about what

861
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 3: it means to be not just productive but healthy and

862
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 3: build this kind of productive way of working in a

863
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: sustainable way.

864
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: I think a really good but painful exercise to go

865
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: through is to actually track how are you using the

866
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: minutes in your day. I think that most people will be.

867
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 2: There's a lot of great software that can make it

868
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: easy to do.

869
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: I quite like riseris I it makes it really easy,

870
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: particularly if you're a computer based worker, just to go

871
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: where is my time going? And then to look at

872
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: that and go how does that actually fit with my

873
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: job and my goals and ultimately the things that I

874
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: can do that will have the biggest impact, and often

875
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: there is very little relationship between those things. The average

876
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 1: knowledge worker is spending about three hours in their inbox. Generally,

877
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: that's not three productive hours, it's three faffing about hours.

878
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: They're spending about four hours a day in meetings, and

879
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: if you think about that, that's seven out of eight

880
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: hours that we're working. Where on Earth is the deep

881
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 1: work happening for most people, it's simply not, so be like,

882
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: start to be aware, and you know, you could just

883
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 1: set up an Excel spreadshet and track your time in

884
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: fifteen minute increments and look at where your time is

885
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 1: actually going and compare that against what is your job

886
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: and what are your goals and if there's a disconnect,

887
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: now you know where you can start to make some changes.

888
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 3: That is amazing And I think there are so many

889
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 3: practical tools that you've given people on this episode.

890
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 4: What I want you to do.

891
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 3: If you're listening and you're like, oh, yeah, there's a

892
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 3: lot here that I can take away, try two things

893
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 3: in the next week. So for me, I'm going to

894
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 3: buy I'm going to go on Amazon after this and

895
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 3: get the Kindle so that I can actually just salt

896
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 3: my bedarime routine.

897
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 4: Now do I sleep out?

898
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 3: And I'm going to do that what you suggested, get

899
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 3: rives and analyze the minutes in the day, because that

900
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 3: is pretty terrifying when you think about seven hours of

901
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 3: your day no deep work, No wonder people are exhausted

902
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 3: because they're finding the deep work at night or on

903
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 3: the weekends, or they're still like trying to find those

904
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: spaces to do it. It's just they're not in their

905
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 3: normal course of work, and I want you to take action.

906
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:07,399
Speaker 3: If you've taken any steps, messages, connect on LinkedIn. I

907
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 3: love hearing about what people are doing. We're going to

908
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 3: put a link in to inventing Amantha's business into the

909
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 3: show notes. As well as Amantha's LinkedIn, you can follow her.

910
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 3: She posts so much good stuff. Amantha, anything else for

911
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 3: our listeners that you want to close out with.

912
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: I just think start to be more mindful about where

913
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: your time is going. We are all busy, we are

914
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: all time poor, but actually start to pay more attention

915
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: to where you're spending your time.

916
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 4: Beautiful.

917
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for making the time to come

918
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 3: on the pod today. And if you enjoyed this episode,

919
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 3: I'd really encourage you to share it with a friend

920
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 3: and give us a five star rating on Spotify or Apple.

921
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 3: Thanks so much Amantha for hanging out ah My Pleasure.

922
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: If you have enjoyed this chat with Shelley, be sure

923
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 1: to check out her podcast, This is Work.

924
00:47:58,280 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 2: If you like.

925
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: Today's Joe, make sure you hit follow on your podcast

926
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I

927
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 1: Work was recorded on the traditional land of the warringery people,

928
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: part of the Kolhan nation. A big thank you to

929
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: Martin Nimma for doing the sound mix.