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Speaker 1: Hello there. Today's show is a best of episode while

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Speaker 1: I take a couple of weeks off. It's my chat

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Speaker 1: with Naomi Bagdonis from earlier this year, and I hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoy it. It's been one of my favorite interviews

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Speaker 1: from twenty twenty one so far. When most people think

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Speaker 1: of business, they think of suits, meetings, agendas, and a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of stuff that's very, very serious. But does

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Speaker 1: it have to be this way? Naomi bag Donus thinks

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Speaker 1: that there's a room for humor even when you're trying

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Speaker 1: to accomplish very serious things. By bringing levity into your

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Speaker 1: day to day exchanges, you can more easily build bonds

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Speaker 1: with your colleagues, diffuse tension, and help them get to

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Speaker 1: know you better, and vice versa. Naomi's found that utilizing

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Speaker 1: humor can help boost innovation, foster creativity, and boost resilience

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Speaker 1: through hard times. And she should know because they teaches

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Speaker 1: humor as part of a purpose in the Leadership course

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Speaker 1: at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. Naomi learned her tricks

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Speaker 1: of the trade at the Upright Citizens Brigade theater and

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Speaker 1: from performing improv at comedy venues throughout the United States

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Speaker 1: and now she coaches top executives in the act of comedy.

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Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist

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Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, And this

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Speaker 1: is how I work. A show about how to help

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Speaker 1: you do your best work. Humor seriously, which is the

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Speaker 1: book that Naomi co wrote. Is definitely, hands down the

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Speaker 1: funniest business book that I have ever read. And that

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Speaker 1: is pretty much how my chat with Naomi started.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I mean, the butter is low. People

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Speaker 2: don't start out to ate funny business book, but I

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Speaker 2: will take it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, please take that as a big compliment. I want

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Speaker 1: to know what was your process for making it so funny?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I don't think anyone has asked us that question.

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Speaker 2: I love that question. You know. From the beginning, my

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Speaker 2: co author Jennifer Acker and I knew that writing the

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Speaker 2: book was going to be really hard, even though we

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Speaker 2: really believe in this content. We believe in the transformative

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Speaker 2: effective humor on our behavior in psychology. We believe it's

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Speaker 2: a completely underleveraged asset at work, that our workplaces are

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Speaker 2: particularly humorless, and we believe it's a learnable skill so

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Speaker 2: we know that these small shifts in behavior and mindset

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Speaker 2: are really all it takes to reap the benefits. And

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Speaker 2: yet Jennifer had written a book before, and she had

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Speaker 2: told me it's really really hard. It's harder than you think.

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Speaker 2: And so from the beginning we tried to set up

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Speaker 2: these hacks that would remind ourselves not to take the

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Speaker 2: work or ourselves too seriously along the way. So, as

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Speaker 2: one example, right now, the first words of a book

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Speaker 2: is really intimidating. And so instead of creating a document

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Speaker 2: with a manuscript title and all of this stuff, we

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Speaker 2: just created a document, a Google doc actually called words

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Speaker 2: on a page. And the goal was just to lower

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Speaker 2: the bar. It's like, we're not writing a book. We're

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Speaker 2: just putting some words on a page. That's all we're

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Speaker 2: here to do. And so, and another example is when

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Speaker 2: it was time to write a proposal again, something that

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Speaker 2: could seem really intimidating, we started a Google doc and

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Speaker 2: we titled it a really shitty proposal. And so every

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Speaker 2: time we opened this doc, it would say a really

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Speaker 2: shitty proposal, and it'd be like, you know, I'd text

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Speaker 2: her at six am and be like, hey, I'm in

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Speaker 2: the shitty proposal right now, I'll see you there later today,

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Speaker 2: and it's so funny that stuck. So we ended up

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Speaker 2: kind of mistakenly turning it in at one point to

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Speaker 2: a publisher that way, and they loved it so much

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Speaker 2: that we ended up pitching it to all the publishers

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Speaker 2: as a really shitty proposal, human sleusly a reality proposal.

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Speaker 2: And so we knew at the beginning that there were

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Speaker 2: parts of this that were going to be really hard

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Speaker 2: and bring me a slog, And so it was our

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Speaker 2: way of creating these hacks and reminders to ourselves to

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Speaker 2: have a sense of levity and really to practice what

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Speaker 2: we preach as we're doing it.

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Speaker 1: Something I was wondering when I was reading it, And

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Speaker 1: I feel like I experienced this in my own writing,

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Speaker 1: Like I get the importance of humors, so when I

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Speaker 1: read the book, definitely preaching to the converted, but there

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Speaker 1: were so many practical strategies that I felt like I

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Speaker 1: could use to make myself more funny and the things

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Speaker 1: that I was producing more funny. But I was wondering

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Speaker 1: with the book, was it almost like you do a

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Speaker 1: straight draft that there's no pressure to be funny, and

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Speaker 1: then you go back over and then you make it funny.

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Speaker 1: Because I feel like that's a process I'll sometimes use

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Speaker 1: with my work, particularly if I'm staring at a blank page,

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Speaker 1: I'll just go just get some crap on a page

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Speaker 1: and then fix it up and then you can make

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Speaker 1: it funny if you want later on, or are you

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Speaker 1: just naturally funny when you're right?

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Speaker 2: That's so that's such an interesting question both. So so

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Speaker 2: one of the things that was really important Jennifer and

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Speaker 2: I would work in silo and then we'd share our

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Speaker 2: work with each other. And so one thing that I

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Speaker 2: found really helpful is rather than thinking about trying to

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Speaker 2: be funny, I just thought about what's going to make

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Speaker 2: Jennifer laugh. And so what I would do is I

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Speaker 2: would write a draft of something, and I would pass

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Speaker 2: it to Jennifer, and then we created this process that

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Speaker 2: we called pink fontification, which is the lamest title for everything,

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Speaker 2: but we just use it within ourselves, and of course

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Speaker 2: now the world knows. And Jennifer, so what she would

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Speaker 2: do is she would read over my work and then

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Speaker 2: she would turn to pink anything that made her smile

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Speaker 2: or laugh, and so it was sort of this instant

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Speaker 2: gratification and also real time feedback of what's working what's

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Speaker 2: not working. And we find oftentimes with our students when

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Speaker 2: they're having trouble quote being funny or thinking of, you know,

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Speaker 2: some type of humor, it's like, okay, forget that, don't

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Speaker 2: try to be funny. Just try to write something that

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Speaker 2: would make your best friend smile or something that would

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Speaker 2: make your partner laugh a little bit. And so making

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Speaker 2: it personal helped a lot. And then there were certainly

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Speaker 2: times where we just had to get a framework out,

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Speaker 2: Like I remember we were working on this one framework

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Speaker 2: about the misperceptions of failure in humor, where we think

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Speaker 2: that failure looks like one thing, and in fact we

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Speaker 2: get failure wrong. And we have of course a two

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Speaker 2: by two because we teach it at business school. And

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Speaker 2: I remember as soon as we locked in on that,

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Speaker 2: it was like, oh my gosh, we got to get

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Speaker 2: this content down. And so we just start pouring content

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Speaker 2: out around that, and then later on we'll go through

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Speaker 2: and we'll look for humor. The other thing that we

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Speaker 2: did was and this is I've spent a good amount

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Speaker 2: of time training at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater in

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles, and doing not just improv comedy but sketch

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Speaker 2: comedy there. And one thing that I learned from that

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Speaker 2: experience of being in a writer's room is you don't

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Speaker 2: always have to have the right joke. You just have

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Speaker 2: to have the intuition that there's an opportunity for humor here.

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Speaker 2: And so I might read a paragraph that I had written,

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Speaker 2: or that Jennifer had written, and I might find a

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Speaker 2: moment in that where where I think it's a little

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Speaker 2: bit humorous, but I don't quite know what to say,

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Speaker 2: And then I'll just flag it and say pitch alts,

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Speaker 2: which is my code for Jennifer, of like pitch ideas

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Speaker 2: for what might be funny here. So I'll give one example.

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Speaker 2: In Jennifer's intro, she had written something like, I'm a

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Speaker 2: behavioral scientist focused on how meaning and purpose shape the

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Speaker 2: choices that individuals make. I didn't view humor as important

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Speaker 2: in my career. Sure I liked laughter, but I never

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Speaker 2: viewed humor as an important skill to develop. And so

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Speaker 2: when I was reading through that, I highlighted the line

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Speaker 2: sure I like laughter, because I was like, this is

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Speaker 2: kind of a funny thing to say, Like I like

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Speaker 2: to laugh is kind of there's something funny there, and

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Speaker 2: then when she went back over it, she wrote, it's

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Speaker 2: sure I like to laugh, and then she added a

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Speaker 2: parenthesis which is impossible to say without sounding like a sociopath.

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Speaker 2: But I never viewed humor as in important skill develop

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Speaker 2: and so it was this iterative process of I don't

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Speaker 2: need to have the right answer, I can just flag

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Speaker 2: that something might be an opportunity for humor, and then

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Speaker 2: we can go back and forth and build on each

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Speaker 2: other's ideas like that.

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Speaker 1: So that's probably a good segue to get into how

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Speaker 1: do you write a joke? And I love how practical

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Speaker 1: human seriously is in this regard, and are you able

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Speaker 1: to take listeners through how you write a joke, and

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Speaker 1: like how you personally applying the strategies in the book.

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Speaker 2: So there are some really basic principles of comedy that

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Speaker 2: I have found really accessible. And I should back up

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Speaker 2: for a second and say that we're sort of going

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Speaker 2: at this backwards, because the thing that we say to

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Speaker 2: our students first and foremost is this is not about

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Speaker 2: being funny. It's not about telling jokes, it's not about

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Speaker 2: writing jokes. It's about fundamentally shifting our mindset so that

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Speaker 2: we're navigating our lives on the precipice of a smile.

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Speaker 2: And we use this analogy in the book of the

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Speaker 2: difference between levity, humor, and comedy is similar to the

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Speaker 2: relationship between movement, exercise, and sports. So if you think

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Speaker 2: of those things like a pyramid, you've got on the

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Speaker 2: base floor levity and movement. These are just the way

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Speaker 2: that we navigate our world. So whether it's our mindset

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Speaker 2: or whether it's our physicality, we know that small shifts

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Speaker 2: in our you know, whether we're our shoulders are back

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Speaker 2: or whether our shoulders are hunched, are going to change

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Speaker 2: how people interact with us and how we feel. And similarly,

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Speaker 2: if we navigate our lives on the precipice of a

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Speaker 2: smile versus the precipice of a frown, it's going to

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Speaker 2: change everything. So that first level of levity is really

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Speaker 2: what we're going for now. The reason that we spend

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Speaker 2: an entire chapter and more focused on comedy, focused on

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Speaker 2: the craft and the art of comedy, is that comedy

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Speaker 2: is like a sport. There are rules that you follow,

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Speaker 2: there are moves that you make to get the outcomes

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Speaker 2: you want, in this case laughter, and so our goal

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Speaker 2: there is to teach a few of these moves so

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Speaker 2: that you can just feel more comfortable getting off the couch.

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Speaker 2: Like right, we're not playing sports. We just want to

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Speaker 2: know what those moves are so that it comes more

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Speaker 2: naturally to us, so that we can craft our humor

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Speaker 2: in a way that other people will find funny. So

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Speaker 2: that's a long digression to say, we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about comedy for a few minutes. But if you are

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Speaker 2: not a person who's inclined to comedy, Amantha, I know

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Speaker 2: that you are, which is awesome. But for those who

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Speaker 2: are listening who are not, there's so much more here

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Speaker 2: that's actually important outside of of that just that comedy element. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So that being said, let's see a comedy one oh one.

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Speaker 2: So the two principles I love to share first are

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Speaker 2: number one, at the heart of comedy is truth and

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Speaker 2: number two, misdirection is key to getting laughs. So think

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Speaker 2: about truth. You often laugh because you think, oh, I

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Speaker 2: do that or I've seen people do that. Right, there's

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Speaker 2: a recognition that comes that often makes us laugh. And

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Speaker 2: then misdirection occur is when we think someone will zig

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Speaker 2: and instead they ostrich right exactly, Okay, so we think

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Speaker 2: they'll go one way, and they go the other way.

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Speaker 2: And so one really simple example I give my students

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Speaker 2: is imagine that you are at a dinner party. Remember

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Speaker 2: dinner parties, by the way, so such quaint times. So

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Speaker 2: you're at this dinner party and you're halfway through the

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Speaker 2: second course and one of your friends walks in late

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Speaker 2: and she says, sorry, i'm late, I didn't want to come. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is potentially you know. She says it with a smile.

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Speaker 2: We were like, okay, that's that's pretty funny. Now the

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Speaker 2: truth here, Sorry I'm late, I didn't want to come.

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Speaker 2: The truth is obvious. We've all felt this way where

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Speaker 2: we don't really want to get off the couch. The

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Speaker 2: misdirection is in Actually, Amantha, where do you think the

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Speaker 2: misdirection is in that sorry I'm late, I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to come.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess it's in the I didn't want to come,

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Speaker 1: Because nobody expects you to say the truth in that scenario.

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Speaker 2: Exactly right, So we expect a thinly veiled excuse. Sorry

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Speaker 2: i'm late. Traffic was horrible, Sorry i'm late. The link

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Speaker 2: didn't work. Sorry I'm late. It's twenty twenty one. We're

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Speaker 2: a full year into a pandemic. Does lateness even matter anymore?

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Speaker 2: So what this means is two things. Number One, comedy

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Speaker 2: isn't about making things up. It's really about being observant,

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Speaker 2: about finding truth in our lives. And this is the

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Speaker 2: most important misperception we find with our students and executives

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Speaker 2: is they'll come to us. You know, an executive will

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Speaker 2: come to me and say, hey, I'm giving a talk.

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Speaker 2: I want to be funny. What joke should I tell?

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Speaker 2: And I'll say fantastic. I'll push the papers to the side,

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Speaker 2: and I'll say, tell me about yourself. What is true

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Speaker 2: for you? What do you like more than other people,

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Speaker 2: What do you dislike more than other people? What areas

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Speaker 2: of contrast or incongruity exist in your life? And we'll

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Speaker 2: do this sort of genuine truth finding. We're reminding their

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Speaker 2: lives for authentic material that they can then turn into humor.

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Speaker 2: And then the second thing that this tells us is

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Speaker 2: that structure matters. A set of an idea often isn't enough.

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Speaker 2: It needs to be encased in a way that leads

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Speaker 2: us in a different direction. So that's why in the

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Speaker 2: book we go through these techniques from comedians first mining

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Speaker 2: your life for observations, and then second applying a couple

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Speaker 2: really easy frameworks. So I'll give all fly through that

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Speaker 2: sort of process that I would go through. So first,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make mundane observations about my life. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's not about inventing something from thin air. It's just

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Speaker 2: about noticing what's true. So I might say, I might

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Speaker 2: tell you that my dog is incredibly excited at dinner

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Speaker 2: time even though he's eating the same food he always eats,

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Speaker 2: Or how my kids never listen to me, or how

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Speaker 2: I go for a walk every day just to change

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Speaker 2: up the day a little bit. So I have these observations.

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Speaker 2: They're not funny, but they're just true. And then you

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Speaker 2: can apply one or more of the techniques that we

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Speaker 2: go over in the book. And the three most common

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Speaker 2: ones are exaggeration, contrast and rule of three. So I'll

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Speaker 2: use exaggeration contrast for sample. So Larry David said, I

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Speaker 2: had a wonderful childhood, which is tough because it's hard

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Speaker 2: to adjust to a miserable adulthood. Right, So all he's

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Speaker 2: doing here is he's creating contrast between how he felt

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Speaker 2: about his childhood and how he feels about his adulthood,

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Speaker 2: and then also using exaggeration because he probably doesn't have

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Speaker 2: a totally miserable adulthood, but you know he's trying to

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Speaker 2: create that. And then the other technique that people find

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Speaker 2: really easy is rule of three. So this is where

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Speaker 2: you make a really simple list where the first two

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Speaker 2: elements lead people in one direction and then the third

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Speaker 2: reveals something unexpected. So I might say I miss so

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Speaker 2: many things about in person office life. You know, I

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Speaker 2: miss the support of eye contact, I miss spontaneous lunches

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Speaker 2: with colleagues, and I miss wearing pants. Right, so you're

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Speaker 2: sort of going ab and apple. So these are again

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Speaker 2: these they seem like really simple hacks, but once you

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Speaker 2: start noticing the frameworks, you'll start seeing them everywhere in comedy,

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Speaker 2: and then they'll start coming more nat really do as

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Speaker 2: you're trying to turn your humor into something that feels funny.

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Speaker 1: And what about collbecks, Because I feel like people knowing

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Speaker 1: about callbecks might think that's an opportunity for me to

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Speaker 1: be funny, even if I, you know, don't feel confident

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Speaker 1: constructing a whole joke. So can you talk about callbacks?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a great one. So the callback is

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Speaker 2: the safest joke to make, and this is where you

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Speaker 2: just make a reference to a moment that already got

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Speaker 2: a laugh. So, as one example, I was in a

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Speaker 2: zoom call the other day and it was a group

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Speaker 2: of CFOs and retired CFOs and they were all going

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Speaker 2: around the table introducing themselves. And if you came clear

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Speaker 2: that it was sort of a ridiculous thing to continue

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Speaker 2: introducing themselves as CFOs because everyone was a CFO. And so,

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Speaker 2: you know, one person says I'm a CFO. The other

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Speaker 2: person says, I'm retired CFO. The next person says I'm

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Speaker 2: a CFO. And then one woman introduces herself and says

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Speaker 2: I'm a recovering CFO, indicating that she's like recovering from

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Speaker 2: it rather than retired from it. You know, the whole

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Speaker 2: call laughs, everyone has this shared experience. A couple people later,

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Speaker 2: another woman says I'm also a recovering CFO. Again, everyone laughs,

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Speaker 2: and it's sort of this callback that makes the first

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Speaker 2: person feel good. A little bit later, a third person says,

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Speaker 2: I'm an aspiring recovering CFO. Right, So this is now

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Speaker 2: taking that callback and it's building upon it and again

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Speaker 2: everyone laughs, So it's really low risk because it's just

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Speaker 2: making reference to something that already got to laugh. It

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Speaker 2: makes the first joke teller feel valued and seen. So

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Speaker 2: it's incredible relationship builder in that way, and in a

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Speaker 2: group of people, it can be a powerful tactic to

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Speaker 2: create an in group, and create an in group in

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Speaker 2: a way that's that's powerful and safe and good for

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Speaker 2: the culture, rather than one that feels exclusive.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about bringing humor into the every day,

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Speaker 1: so things that people do every day, like emails and

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Speaker 1: meetings and instant messages, and maybe human's not quite the

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Speaker 1: right word, because I know in the book you talk

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Speaker 1: a lot about levity, which I feel is a really

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Speaker 1: underused word. I love the idea of just bringing more

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Speaker 1: levity into the workplace. So let's maybe start with emails,

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Speaker 1: because I'm sure that listeners of the show are probably

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Speaker 1: sending hundreds of emails every week, and I feel that

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of missed opportunity there for levity. So

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Speaker 1: can you talk about how you think about your emails

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Speaker 1: and having received emails from you, I mean, you completely

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Speaker 1: practice what you preach. Because we had to reschedule this

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Speaker 1: interview because you were sick, and you wrote me a

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Speaker 1: hilarious email telling me that you were sick, And I'm like, ah,

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Speaker 1: that's so funny. I don't mind rescheduling. That's totally cool

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Speaker 1: because you're so funny. But tell me about how do

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Speaker 1: you think about emails.

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Speaker 2: Well, first, that's great to hear, and you're very gracious

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Speaker 2: about meaning to reschedule the well, so thank you for that.

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Speaker 2: If we think about the barrage of electronic information we

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Speaker 2: get every day, it is pretty profound, and humor is

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Speaker 2: such a powerful way to create signal from the noise.

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Speaker 2: In that way, it's a gift to someone when they

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Speaker 2: read their fortieth email, you know, in the last twenty

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Speaker 2: minutes and everything has been all business and then you

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Speaker 2: have this one email that has a little bit of lightheartedness.

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Speaker 2: It's so incredibly powerful. Whether it's a pun in the

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Speaker 2: subject line, or whether it's a gift for whether it's

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Speaker 2: just an unexpected line. It's is such a useful way

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Speaker 2: to create an email that someone actually wants to respond to,

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Speaker 2: rather than one that they will move past and wait

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Speaker 2: to respond to it later. And so a couple of

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Speaker 2: techniques that we use. First of all, the first thing

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Speaker 2: that we do with our students is we give them

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Speaker 2: an audit. So we have different kinds of audits because

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Speaker 2: we're a very fun class and we're in a business school.

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Speaker 2: But this specific kind of audit is an email audit.

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Speaker 2: So what we have them do is they have to

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Speaker 2: go into their sent folder right there and then in

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Speaker 2: class and they have to read the last ten emails

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Speaker 2: that they've sent. And after doing so, we then have

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Speaker 2: a competition. We call it a jargon off, and they

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Speaker 2: have to find the most sterile business speak, like any

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Speaker 2: phrase that could have been written by a robot. You know,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's the sign off, or maybe it's attached please find,

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Speaker 2: or maybe it's the sign off vest or kind regards,

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Speaker 2: whatever it is that really could have been written by robot.

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Speaker 2: And then they share it with the class, you know,

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Speaker 2: they either drop it in a chat box or for

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Speaker 2: in person and al through a dramatic reading of it.

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Speaker 2: And it's this illustration with this reminder that the more

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Speaker 2: technology mediated our communication becomes, the easier it is to

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Speaker 2: lose our sense of humor and our humanity along the way,

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Speaker 2: because we subconsciously adapt our medium, and when we're constantly

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Speaker 2: communicating through technology, it's easy to sound like a robot.

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Speaker 2: So step one is just right like a human, really

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Speaker 2: simple but incredibly effective. The second is serendipitous sign offs.

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Speaker 2: So instead of writing best, write something that's a callback

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Speaker 2: to something from earlier, something that is a little bit unexpected.

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Speaker 2: So as an example, I started a three PM call

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Speaker 2: and the person I was talking with talked about how

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Speaker 2: she had had three cups of coffee, and I said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm on my second cup, and we sort of had

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Speaker 2: a laugh about it, and so I signed off my

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Speaker 2: email from that day yours heavily caffeinated. And then we

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Speaker 2: were on another call recently and Jennifer's dog got out

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Speaker 2: while we were doing an interview, and so she thinks

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Speaker 2: that she goes on mute, and she yells to her

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Speaker 2: husband Andy, who let the dog out, which then of

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Speaker 2: course led to a wonderful rendition of who let the

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Speaker 2: dogs out? And then she signed off that email still

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Speaker 2: wondering who let the dogs out? So these are just

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Speaker 2: really lighthearted ways to leave a little gift in your

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Speaker 2: sign off, So that would be number two. My third

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Speaker 2: tip would be make callbacks. So this is what you

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Speaker 2: were mentioning earlier. When I'm on a call, especially if

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Speaker 2: it's with a new client or a new customer or

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Speaker 2: anyone even a friend. I will look for moments when

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Speaker 2: we organically laugh together, Like I'm not trying to make jokes,

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Speaker 2: but we're humans, and humors a fundamental melody of human conversation,

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Speaker 2: so we're going to probably have a laugh at some point,

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Speaker 2: especially if it's a professional context. I'll jot down that

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Speaker 2: moment when they laughed, and then I'll bring it back

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Speaker 2: in the email. So it could be something as simple

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Speaker 2: as someone mentions on the call I had. I was

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Speaker 2: on the phone with someone. We're trying to invite him

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Speaker 2: to come speak in our course at Stanford. He mentioned

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Speaker 2: that he is superstitious, and so I wrote in the

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Speaker 2: email back to him, wonderful chatting today. We're so hoping

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Speaker 2: that you can come. We've penciled you in while crossing

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Speaker 2: our fingers, stroking rabbit foot keychains and throwing a thousand

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00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: pennies into wishing wells that you can join. Right, So

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Speaker 2: it's making a reference to something that he said, but

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Speaker 2: you know, including that as a callback and an email.

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Speaker 2: And then the last one that I would tell people

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Speaker 2: is it's incredible, but a well placed meme can do,

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Speaker 2: and you don't want to overuse them. But we share

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Speaker 2: a story in the book which is actually a secretly

415
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Speaker 2: a story of a personal experience, which is that I

416
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Speaker 2: was working with a client and I had done work

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Speaker 2: for them, and then I got totally ghosted where they

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Speaker 2: weren't paying me for the work I had done, and

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Speaker 2: I sent a couple follow up notes. The woman who

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Speaker 2: I was working with was actually a former colleague of mine,

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Speaker 2: and so the invoice had now gone and paid for months,

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Speaker 2: and so I followed up, you know, Hey, so sorry,

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Speaker 2: but any updates on the invoice. No response. Two weeks later, Hey,

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Speaker 2: just wanted to follow up. Is there anything else that

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Speaker 2: you need from this order to have this invoice go through?

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Speaker 2: Nothing in a month later, checking in on this again,

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Speaker 2: is there anything I can do to help push this forward?

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Speaker 2: No response, And so finally a month later I tried

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Speaker 2: a different strategy, which is I sent a cat meme,

430
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: And this cat meme was a cat looking longingly through

431
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 2: a glass outside that said hello from the other side.

432
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: I must have meowed a thousand times and it's like

433
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 2: from the Adell lyric. And she got back to me

434
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 2: the next day and I was paid with him the week.

435
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 2: So I guess the last tip that I would give

436
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 2: is think about showing, not telling, especially if you aren't

437
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 2: super comfortable making humor yourself. Just include something lighthearted that

438
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 2: you think would make the other person smile.

439
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: And do you find now, particularly because you've written this

440
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: book about humor, I mean, with most of your emails,

441
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: do you feel like I have to be funny? Are

442
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: you sending any straight emails? Naomi?

443
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: Oh, that's such a great question. Gosh, I guess I

444
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 2: have to do an email audit on myself. You know,

445
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 2: I would say we've created a culture of lightheartedness, but

446
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: there's a point where that can go too far. Too

447
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 2: If you're over extending your energy on trying to be funny,

448
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 2: on trying to make things light hearted, then of course

449
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: that that's going to be detrimental to your goal. And

450
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: so what I do try and do is be unapologetically

451
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 2: and relentlessly human in my emails. So I try and

452
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: write my emails as if I'm talking, and if I

453
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: feel excited about something, I'm going to totally show that

454
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: in my email. If I can think of something that

455
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 2: I think would make the other person smile, then I'm

456
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 2: going to include that in my email. I was talking

457
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: with a colleague of mind, this incredible woman who teaches

458
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: at Harvard and has done a lot of this research.

459
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 2: Alison Woodbrooks, along with Brad Bitterley and Maury Schweitzer, has

460
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: done incredible research in this area of humor and status,

461
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: and in particular for Alison, around human conversations. How do

462
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: we create more effective conversations with people? And I was

463
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: talking with Alison. We've worked together for the last seven

464
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: years now. She was one of the researchers at the

465
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 2: Second City Humor Retreat where we were hosted by Anne

466
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 2: Libra and Kelly Leonard to do a deep dive into

467
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: humor with the heads of the Second City and the

468
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 2: founder of the Union and these behavioral scientists from all

469
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 2: over the world. And I was talking to Alison this

470
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: morning because I guess spoke in her class, and she

471
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 2: was saying, I think I may over index in like

472
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: none of my emails are serious. All of my emails

473
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 2: have some levity. And she reflected for a minute and

474
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: she said, but you know what, if I'm going to

475
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 2: over index in one direction of the or the other,

476
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: I would so much rather have more levity and more

477
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 2: joy in my life than have all of my professional

478
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 2: communications be boring. And what I've noticed with Alison the

479
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: way that she communicates with her students is she creates

480
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 2: an environment where everyone feels safe to show their own

481
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 2: sense of humor. And we see this in organizations too,

482
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 2: that when the leader is willing to have more levity

483
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: and humor and show more of themselves, then everyone feels

484
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: safer and more empowered to show more of themselves as well.

485
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: How about in matings where the opportunities for bringing more

486
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: levity into matings. I'm curious as to how you think

487
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: about this in your enlife, the matings that you're attending

488
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: or facilitating.

489
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: Never is the answer. No, you know, it's interesting when

490
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: we all moved to zoom, or when we all moved

491
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 2: to working remotely, it fell for a while, like we

492
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: fell off this humor cliff. And now you're seeing this

493
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 2: incredible rebirth of humor in a new format. So for me,

494
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: for example, I mentioned that I have my students do

495
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: the humor audit. Well, the way that I've started doing

496
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 2: that and I did that this morning with the students

497
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: at Harvard is instead of saying, okay, everyone go into

498
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 2: your email, you know you have to do this now.

499
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 2: I play an alarm sound, so everyone thinks that there's

500
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 2: like a fire alarm going off in my house. And

501
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 2: I interrupt myself mid sentence as I'm lecturing, and I'm

502
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: looking around, I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh,

503
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: you know what this means. It's time for the audit.

504
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: You're all being audited. Everyone's sort of looking around confused,

505
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 2: and I go, okay, everyone, reach under your chairs, like

506
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: taped under your chair is going to be an envelope.

507
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: And of course everyone sort of looks around at each other.

508
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: A few people actually go and reach down there, and

509
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: then I show a slide with an envelope open that

510
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: says you're being audited. And so it's so it's so lighthearted,

511
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 2: but they are just these small ways in which you're

512
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 2: signaling that we're not taking ourselves to seriously. So a

513
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: couple other examples that I have heard recently. So I

514
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: work with a woman at Salesforce, and she's a senior exec.

515
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: She was in a meeting and one of her and

516
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: her five year old walked into the meeting accidentally, and

517
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: everyone sort of laughed about it, and the five year

518
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 2: old left So what she did was she noticed that

519
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 2: in these meetings she's always repeating the same phrases, whether

520
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: it's let's talk about next steps or let's find time

521
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: on the calendar right now or whatever it is. And

522
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 2: so she had her five year old create signs, like

523
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: create signs on paddles that she could hold up during meetings.

524
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: They're adorable. They're like written with crans and they say

525
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: things like what are the next steps? And I think

526
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: you're on mute was my favorite one. I think you're

527
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: on mute paddle that she holds up, and so it's

528
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: a way for her to say the things that she's

529
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: going to say anyways, but do it in sort of

530
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 2: a lighthearted way. So there are lots of examples. I

531
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: think the important thing is it needs to be authentic

532
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: to whoever the person is, and it also needs to

533
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: be appropriate to their status. And so in the book

534
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: and in our teaching, we share that there are these

535
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 2: four humor styles and everyone can go to humor seriously

536
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: dot com and take a quiz to find out what

537
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: your style is. But in short, those styles are the

538
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: stand up, the sweetheart, the sniper, and the magnet. And

539
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: what we find is that different styles are going to

540
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: work in different contexts, and in particular based on your status.

541
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 2: So I can do that. I can do that sort

542
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: of silly. There's an envelope taped, dont your desk and

543
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: but do all of that because in that context, I

544
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: have authority. I am a high status person in the

545
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: room because I'm the teacher. Now, when I am leading

546
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: workshops for groups of executives, by the way, that's magnet humor.

547
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: That's like very typical magnet humor. When I'm leading workshops

548
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: for groups of executives, I'll lean more into sniper and

549
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: stand up style humor, which is more biting, not afraid

550
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: to ruffle a few feathers to get a laugh, a

551
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: little more targeted. And the reason for this is I'm

552
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: no longer quote, the most senior person in the room.

553
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 2: And so there's this rule in comedy that you never

554
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: want to punch down, which means you never want to

555
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 2: make the target of your joke someone of lower status

556
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: than you. So what that means is, when I am

557
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: the highest person on the totem poll or I'm in

558
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: a position of authority, making fun of myself is a

559
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: really safe place to go. When I'm not the highest

560
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: status person in the room, I can punch up and

561
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: that can actually gain me status and influence.

562
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,479
Speaker 1: That's so helpful to think about. And on the topic

563
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: of presenting, because you would do so much presenting and

564
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: I imagine keynote speaking is part of your work, how

565
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: do you think about the first few minutes of a presentation?

566
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: Setting the tone is incredibly important because it cures people

567
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: that you are going to have some humor and levity.

568
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: So if I am serious, if I'm really serious the

569
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 2: first two to three minutes, then oftentimes my humor won't

570
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: land later on because people aren't expecting it. But if

571
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: they code me as someone who's intellectually agile in that way,

572
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 2: because by the way people do code humor as being

573
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: associated with intelligence and agility, if I signal that early,

574
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: then my jokes are going to land better later. And

575
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 2: so the thing I always do, if possible, is I

576
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: will make a callback reference to something that the earlier

577
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: presenter has said, or or I will name something that's

578
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: happening in the moment. So at conferences, for example, I

579
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: have a placeholder in my first thirty seconds where all

580
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to do is I'm going to make a

581
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 2: reference to the last presenter who had a humorous line.

582
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 2: If I don't find that, if they don't laugh the

583
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: entire time that the presenter is going then instead, what

584
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: I'm doing in the one minute before I go on

585
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: stage or in the one minute before I start talking

586
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: on zoom is I'm just noticing what's going on for people.

587
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: So I'm looking at people's zoom backgrounds, or if I'm

588
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: in person, I'm looking at the venue. I'm sort of

589
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: making note of something that's happening in the room. And

590
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: so I was on a call yesterday and I was presenting,

591
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: and the introduction was quite dry. There was not a

592
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: moment of humor that happened, and so I started scrolling

593
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: through all of the pictures of people on zoom and

594
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 2: I came on and I said, thank you so much

595
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: for having me. I just want to start by saying

596
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: that this is an incredibly impressive crowd. I'm really grateful

597
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: to be here, and in addition your professional accomplishments, I

598
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: want to start by giving out a couple of awards

599
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: for your backgrounds, because these are some of the best

600
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: backgrounds I've seen, and so you know, I give an

601
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 2: award for best plant life, which is like a woman

602
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: who's sitting there with like literally in a jungle. And

603
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: then I give an award for I forget what the

604
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 2: other ones where. I think someone had pictures of their kids,

605
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: and I gave an award for that. And then my

606
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: third award was someone who was in like a virtual

607
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: background on the moon, and I thanked them for joining

608
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: another ingenuity and getting their Internet connections set up on

609
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 2: the moon. And so you know what that does is

610
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: it takes people right in the moment. I couldn't have

611
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: planned that out, just like I couldn't have planned out

612
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: the callback. And so again, it signals intelligence, it signals agility,

613
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: and it also signals okay, this is someone who I've

614
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: got to stay on my toes for.

615
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: Hey there it's time for a little ad break. But

616
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: can I ask a favor of you? If you're enjoying

617
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: how I work, I'd be so grateful if you could

618
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: hit pause and pop into Apple Podcasts or wherever you're

619
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: listening to this from and leave a review. You might

620
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: want to leave a star rating or maybe a comment.

621
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: And aside from the warm, fuzzy feelings that this will

622
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: give both you and me, it helps other people find

623
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: out about how I work, So thank you in advance. Okay,

624
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: Naomi is going to be back after this short break,

625
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: and we're going to be learning about some other tricks

626
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: that you can use to be funny in presentations, especially

627
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: if you're not that confident in your ability to be

628
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: spontaneously funny. What are some other tricks that people can

629
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: use maybe if they're not confident in their ability to

630
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: be spontaneously funny, Are there any other tricks that people

631
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: can use in those first few minutes?

632
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: Totally, So, one trick that we see people use as

633
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: bringing up a cope presenter that they naturally can bounter with.

634
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: So this obviously isn't always possible, but in instances where

635
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: it is possible, it's a really safe way to showcase

636
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: that you have a sense of humor, that you don't

637
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: take yourself too seriously, but you don't need to be

638
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: the one making jokes. So a couple examples of this.

639
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 2: Dick Costello, the former CEO of Twitter, He used to

640
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 2: have people who were not the most senior in his

641
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 2: organization come co present with him in all hands meetings. So,

642
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 2: as one example, April Underwood, who was very senior in

643
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 2: product at Twitter, Dick and April had a very good relationship.

644
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: He was a mentor to her. They had grown a

645
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 2: real peer relationship, and April had a real biting sense

646
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: of humor. She would often take him down or she'd

647
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: just bring out Dick's sense of humor, and so he

648
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: would have her co present and in doing so, their

649
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: banter naturally came out. Sergey and Larry at Google did

650
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: this too, where early in there in founding Google and

651
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 2: then throughout the company's growth, they would have these all

652
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 2: hands meetings where they would both be on stage and

653
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: they would really showcase their natural banter. So that's one way.

654
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 2: Another way is simply to share something that you find

655
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 2: genuinely funny or lighthearted and tie it into a content

656
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: piece that you're already going to present. And this is

657
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: actually a lot easier than you think it might be.

658
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: So I'll give an example of one thing I use

659
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: is I use this clip from The Californians. So google

660
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: the SNL the Californians and you'll find this clip. There

661
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: are many good clips there, but my favorite one is

662
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 2: one where Bill Hayterer, Kristen Wigg and Fred Armison break character.

663
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: They just they can't. They think it's so funny that

664
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: they break character and they're laughing in the middle of

665
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: the sketch, and it always gets people laughing. That the

666
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: most important thing. I look through the zoom screen and

667
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: it just gets people laughing, And so I don't have

668
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: to do anything to be funny. I just play this

669
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 2: clip and I will make a connection to whatever I'm teaching. So,

670
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: for example, if I'm sharing a study on how when

671
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 2: people laugh together, they are more likely to share thirty

672
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 2: percent more personal information in a subsequent conversation, so those

673
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: conversations are rated as thirty percent more intimate and authentic.

674
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: So I'll share that clip and then I'll say, now,

675
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: I want you to imagine that you're walking into a

676
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 2: room with someone and having a conversation. So I might

677
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: do that. Another way I might do it is just

678
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 2: show that clip and then say, great, I know that

679
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 2: we're joining from all over the world today, so I

680
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 2: just wanted to kick off here with a California vibe.

681
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: Since I typically do my teaching at Stanford. These are

682
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 2: totally different reasons that I've given for showing the clip.

683
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 2: The important thing is just to get people laughing. So

684
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: whatever it is, that you find funny. Of course, that

685
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: is also work appropriate. Try and see if you can

686
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: find a way to lead with that or to include

687
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 2: it in your presentation and then make a loose tie

688
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 2: to the content and people will allow you some leeway

689
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: because you've given them the gift of laughter.

690
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: And how about at the end of a presentation, how

691
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: important is it to incorporate hema right at the end.

692
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 2: So there's peak end theory in psychology, which shows that people, well,

693
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 2: first of all, there's primacy effect, there's recency effects, and

694
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 2: then peak end. So all of these things say that

695
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 2: different moments are really really important in our conversations, in

696
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: our interactions, and in our relationships, so priming. So that's

697
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: what the initial thing that you do is. That's why

698
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: it's important to start with some element of levity, or

699
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: it can be powerful to start with some element of levity,

700
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: because then people are primed to look for and find

701
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: other moments, other reasons to laugh. Now, peak end theory

702
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 2: says that people tend to remember the most emotionally heightened

703
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: moments and also the last moment. And this is similar

704
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: to recency effect with the last moment that people will

705
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 2: remember the most recent interaction with someone. And so what

706
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 2: this means is you want to leave people with some

707
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,800
Speaker 2: little bit of levity or humor. Now I don't stick

708
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: to this really firmly. I think that it's more important

709
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: to end your presentation strong, or end what you're doing strong,

710
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 2: rather than necessarily to end with humor. And the reason

711
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 2: for that is if you have used humor along the way,

712
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: people will remember it. I can give an example of

713
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: that in a minute. But the important thing is I

714
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: will never end on Q and A. And this is

715
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: something that I learned from David Nihill, who wrote Do

716
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: You Talk Funny and was graciously a guest in our

717
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 2: class at Stanford. He wrote a fantastic book where he

718
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: became a stand up comedian and deconstructed all of these techniques.

719
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it was really incredibly inspiring work in a

720
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: really good book. And one of the things that David

721
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: taught me is you never end on Q and A, because,

722
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: without fail, you have this incredible presentation that you've been

723
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 2: prepping and you know exactly what you're going to say,

724
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 2: you know all your notes to hit, and then you

725
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 2: end on Q and A and it's sort of like, oh, well,

726
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: you know, it's not something that you necessarily wanted to

727
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: talk about. Maybe you don't have a great answer to it.

728
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: You're sort of bumbling your way through it, and that's

729
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 2: how you And so the most effective technique that I

730
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: learned from him was you want to do Q and

731
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: A and then you want to leave a three minute

732
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: content piece at the very end. So say, you know,

733
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 2: I'm going to take some Q and A now, and

734
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 2: then I'd love to leave you with a few closing remarks.

735
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: So that's what I would say about ending strong. I

736
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 2: mean that said, if you can leave with something that's lighthearted,

737
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 2: that's good too.

738
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: And how about during the presentation, because I remember, really

739
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: early on when I started keynote speaking, I had this

740
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: coach and he would always say, Okay, that's good, but

741
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: be funnier, be funnier, be funnier, like think about laughs

742
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: per minute and so yea, how whenever yeah yeah, Like

743
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: so now, whenever I'm creating a new keynote presentation, I'm

744
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 1: literally thinking laughs per minute.

745
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 2: And then I will look over.

746
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 1: Recordings of presentations and I will be thinking, oh gosh,

747
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: that was like a two minute period where I didn't

748
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: say anything funny. They probably fell asleep I need to

749
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: inject more humor. There is this the quil How are

750
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: you thinking about it for your presentations?

751
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 2: Like can you be too funny? I love that, So

752
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: it's totally not overkill, and I do the exact same thing.

753
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 1: Oh good.

754
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. So remember I mentioned earlier the Jennifer and I

755
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 2: had this process, our pink fontification process. So I still

756
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 2: do that with my own talks. I will go through

757
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: my talk and then at least every like every paragraph

758
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 2: or every other paragraph, there has to be a moment

759
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: that's lighthearted or has some humor in it, or something

760
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: that's going to make people perk up or ideally laugh.

761
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 2: And so this is something that I really think about

762
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: a lot. And of course sometimes we're really stressed and

763
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 2: we don't have time for this. And I've also loved

764
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 2: working with some comedians, and I have a team of

765
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 2: comedy writers that I've gotten to know over the last

766
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 2: number of years, and we'll have those comedy writers come

767
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: in and coach our students. And sometimes if I'm getting

768
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: a talk and I'm just like this, this isn't where

769
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: it needs to be, I'll gather three of my favorite

770
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: comedy writers and I'll say, hey, guys, can you jump

771
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: in this document for thirty minutes, Can you just pitch

772
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: either humor or different opportunities for humor or we'll get

773
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: on the phone together and we'll read through it together

774
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 2: and we'll do that. And so there's this thought in

775
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 2: business especially that we have to have all the right answers,

776
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: that we have to work in a vacuum and then

777
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: have just the right thing to say, and that the

778
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: reality is that's just not how the comedy world works.

779
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 2: Anything you see on TV, whether it's sketch comedy or

780
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: a sitcom or a Netflix special, every joke that you

781
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: see on TV has been worked over by ten writers

782
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 2: in a room together who are laughing. And so if

783
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 2: you're feeling stuck yourself, then grab it doesn't have to

784
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: be comedy writers. It can be grab a couple friends

785
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: and say hey, can you help me, you know, go

786
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: through this and just flag any opportunities for humor that

787
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 2: you see, or any ways to make this a little

788
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: bit more lighthearted.

789
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: That reminds me of something Adam Grant talks about where

790
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: he talks about having a challenge network, so a group

791
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: of people who you can send your work at to

792
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 1: for critique and to make it better and to challenge

793
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: your thinking. And like, I think about what you've just said.

794
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 1: That's kind of like having a human network, like people

795
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: you can draw on to make your stuff funnier. I

796
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: really like that idea.

797
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think of them as my writer's room. So

798
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: comedy is a team sport, and when I was training

799
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: and performing in LA, I was so used to being

800
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: in a writer's room with people, or being on stage

801
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: with seven other people, and so the idea of creating

802
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: comedy in a vacuum by myself alone was like horrifying.

803
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: And so I would sometimes create a writer's room where

804
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: it's really just my friends I know from comedy, and

805
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, can we do a quick writer's room

806
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: this weekend and can I run some stuff by you?

807
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: They're like, yeah, totally, And so yeah, absolutely, having your

808
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: writer's room or having your what did you call.

809
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: It, like a human network.

810
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. Having your humor network is incredibly powerful.

811
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: And by the way, Sarah Cooper, So, Sarah Cooper is

812
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: a fantastic comedian. Of course she's become more famous in

813
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: the last couple of years, but Sarah Cooper has been

814
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: wildly funny for many many years. Her books are amazing,

815
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 2: and she was one of the first guests in our class,

816
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 2: and I remember her telling our students about how she

817
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 2: had a set of trusted testers is what she called them.

818
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: And she had a Facebook group that was all her friends, family,

819
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 2: and colleagues who she trusted, who would give her really

820
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: genuine feedback on her work. And so when she was

821
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: writing her books, first had to look smart in meetings

822
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 2: and then how to be successful without hurting men's feelings

823
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 2: were her two books. She would post in her private

824
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 2: Facebook group, Hey, this is what I'm thinking of writing.

825
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 2: What do you think about it? And she would get

826
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 2: really candid feedback about what people thought and whether it

827
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: was going too far, whether it was crossing a line,

828
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: whether it needed to go further. And so this concept

829
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: of not creating comedy in a vacuum, it's just so

830
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: core to everyone who has done comedy in their background,

831
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 2: and something that we don't necessarily think of in business.

832
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: What do you do when a joke fails? Because I

833
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: guess that's probably one reason why people maybe stay away

834
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: from humor because of fear of failure. So what do

835
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: you do?

836
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a great question. So I delineate between

837
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: two important types of failure. So type one of failure

838
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 2: is you try to make someone laugh and it doesn't

839
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: go well. But it's benign, right, it's totally appropriate. It's

840
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 2: just you misjudged, you didn't craft your humor in the

841
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: right way, and you just you know, you don't get

842
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: it right. In that case, a powerful technique can actually

843
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: be to double down and acknowledge, just name what happened.

844
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 2: So you try and make a joke and you say

845
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 2: either well, you know that one didn't land here, or

846
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: thank you all be here all day, or something else,

847
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 2: to just acknowledge the fact that you just tried to

848
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: make a joke and there was radio silence. Oftentimes just

849
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: doing that will get a laugh. You know, you diffuse tension.

850
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: You allow people to laugh at the fact that that

851
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 2: didn't go well, and that's a great way to sort

852
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: of move past it. The type two of failure is

853
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: you cross a line, you offend someone, or you make

854
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: someone feel bad. And in this case we give a

855
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: framework in our book of recognize, diagnose, and make it right.

856
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: So step one just recognizing the fact that you have failed,

857
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,720
Speaker 2: which weirdly gets hard when you rise in status because

858
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: we know that the more status and power you gain,

859
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 2: the harder it is to stay calibrated because people will laugh,

860
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 2: not necessarily because you're funny, but because you are the boss.

861
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: So one of my favorite illustrations of this, by the way,

862
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: was a group of social psychologists ran this study where

863
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 2: they had a research assistant. It was actually an interview simulation,

864
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: but the people walking in the room didn't know that

865
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 2: this person in the simulation was a research assistant. They

866
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 2: thought that it was just another person. And so in

867
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: one situation, they made the participants believe that this person

868
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 2: was high status, that they were an important person, a

869
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: powerful person. And in the other group, they made the

870
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 2: participants believe that this person was a subordinate, that they

871
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 2: were lower status than the participants. And so in this study,

872
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 2: all the research assistants delivered the same joke, and that

873
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: joke was two muffins are baking in an oven. One

874
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 2: of them yells, wow, it's hot in here, and the

875
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 2: other muffin replies, holy cow, a talking muffin. Now this

876
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 2: is objectively a grade A dad joke. I mean, this

877
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 2: is a bad joke. And what they found was that

878
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 2: participants in the condition where they thought the joke teller

879
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: was low status, yes, crickets absolutely no laughter. People in

880
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: the high status condition, people who thought that the joke

881
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 2: teller was high status like roaring laughter, right, And anyways,

882
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: this research is really interesting. It doesn't even matter if

883
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,959
Speaker 2: the person's in the room. If they watch a video

884
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 2: of someone high status, they're more likely to laugh. And

885
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 2: so what this means is that we think like, oh, yeah,

886
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: I have to recognize when I fail, but it actually

887
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 2: can be harder than we think. And so especially if

888
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: we fail in ways where we think we could have

889
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 2: crossed a line where there's an appropriateness issue, you have

890
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 2: to get really good at recognizing that. And by the way,

891
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: that was Seth Meyers's number one piece of advice for

892
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 2: our students. So Seth Meyer's former head writer of Saturday

893
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: Night Live, and he has his own show, Late Night

894
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 2: with Seth Myers. He joined as a guest in our

895
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 2: class and we were wrapping up and we said, great, Seth,

896
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: what's the one thing you want to leave our students with?

897
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 2: And he paused, and he said, get really good at

898
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 2: recognizing your own fake laughter, the laughter that you make

899
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 2: that isn't genuine. Because once you get good at that

900
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 2: and you'll start noticing other people's fake laughter, and that

901
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: gets really important as you get hiring status. So we

902
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: always tell our students if you do fail, recognize it, apologize,

903
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 2: and make it right immediately, so a genuine apology, and

904
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 2: really try and understand why your humor failed. So ask

905
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: the person what did I miss? What went wrong? When

906
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 2: our humor fails, it's really easy to lean on, oh, well,

907
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 2: you know, they probably didn't get the joke or it's

908
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 2: their problem, rather than saying, actually, I may have done

909
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 2: something wrong here. And then third is so recognize, diagnose,

910
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 2: make it right. And then we always tell our students

911
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: that there are these common reasons why humor fails that

912
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 2: you want to try and avoid. So, for example, never

913
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 2: punch down. We've talked about that on before number two,

914
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 2: minding your medium. So a really quick tip here is

915
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: sarcasm is the most wrongly interpreted form of humor in writing,

916
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: so people think that they're much better than they actually

917
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 2: are at conveying sarcasm. Another one context switching, so it

918
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: goes without saying that humor's context dependent, that something that

919
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 2: lands in the living room won't necessarily land in the boardroom.

920
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: And yet it can be really tempting if we're sitting

921
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: around our colleagues and we think of something funny to

922
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 2: just sort of let it come out. So we have

923
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: to be really aware of context switching. And then the

924
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: other thing that we dive into more fully is those

925
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: personal humor pitfalls based on your humor style. So each

926
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 2: of those styles, you know, for example, the magnet and

927
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: the sweetheart, they're more likely to over index on self

928
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 2: deprecation and so they can actually take away their power

929
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 2: when they do that. On the other side, you have

930
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 2: stand ups and snipers who can alienate or offend with

931
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 2: their humor. So really getting to know what's your humor

932
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 2: style and therefore what are your personal pitfalls can help

933
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: you avoid those humor fails.

934
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:57,919
Speaker 1: And I'll put a link to that in the show

935
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:02,720
Speaker 1: note so that people can die is the personal humus style? Now, Naomi,

936
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: my final question if people want to consume more of

937
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: what you're doing and get the hands on a copy

938
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: of Humors Seriously, which seriously people need to do? It's

939
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: just brilliant. How can people do all that?

940
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: The book is available anywhere books are sold, but come

941
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: on to Humor Seriously dot com and you can find

942
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: links to our book. And then we also have a

943
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 2: twenty one day Humor boot camp that is SMS space,

944
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: so you'd get text messages to your phone more to

945
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 2: WhatsApp whenever your preferred method is. That's a twenty one

946
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 2: day program where every day you get a little audio message,

947
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: some activities, you interact with the program in a way.

948
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 2: And the goal is really to have us make behavior

949
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: change right that they are these small changes that we

950
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: can make in our day to day that will have

951
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: monumental impact on the thing that's most important, which is

952
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: are we navigating our lives on the precipice of a smile?

953
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: Oh that's so. I'm I'm devastated that we've run out

954
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: of time because I've just loved chatting to you. This

955
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: is like a highlight of my week, if not month.

956
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for all the amazing stuff that

957
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: you've imparted. And I wish I didn't have to let

958
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: you get on with your day, but I think I

959
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: do well.

960
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. And I have

961
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: to give you props that your email to us to

962
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 2: ask us to join you on the podcast in it

963
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 2: you signed off with and keeping everything cross that you'll

964
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 2: say yes. And I remember reading that and reading what

965
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 2: you had said about the book and thinking, Okay, Amantha

966
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 2: gets this, and I really can't wait for this conversation.

967
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 2: So I've been looking forward to this one for a

968
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 2: long time. And thank you so much for having me

969
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: and for the work that you do.

970
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: Oh. If you enjoyed my chat with Naomi, and if

971
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: you know someone that you think might enjoy it as well,

972
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: why not share this episode with them. Also, if you

973
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: are looking for more tips to improve the way you work,

974
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 1: I write a short fortnightly newsletup that contains three cool

975
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,399
Speaker 1: things that I've discovered that are helping me work better,

976
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: which range from interesting research finding street gadgets that I'm loving.

977
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co.

978
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. How I Work is

979
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios.

980
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,959
Speaker 1: The producer for this episode was Jenna Coder, and thank

981
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: you to Martin Nimber, who does the audio mix for

982
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: every show and makes everything sound so.

983
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,360
Speaker 2: Much better than it would have otherwise.

984
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 1: See you next time.