1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Have you ever dreamt of writing a book, perhaps one 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: that not only tops the charts, but stands the test 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: of time. In this episode, best selling author Scott Young 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: pulls back the curtain on his writing and marketing process, 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: sharing insights from his international best selling book Ultra Learning 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: and his latest book, Get Better At Anything. My Chat 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: with Scott is packed with actionable strategies and behind the 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: scenes stories, ranging from how to determine if your idea 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: is truly bookworthy, through to crafting a compelling book proposal 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: that gets publishers attention, and how to leaveach Ai tools 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: to streamline your ideation and research process. My name is 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: doctor Amantha Imbert. I'm an organizational psychologist and founder of 13 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: behavior change consultancy Inventium, and this is how I work 14 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: the show about how to help you get so much 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: more out of the hours in your day. I have 16 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: had a lot of people ask me for book writing 17 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: and publishing advice over the years, and I think most 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: of us have a book idea sitting within us, or 19 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: at least we think we do. But the first thing 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: I ask people who say they want to write a 21 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: book is what makes this idea a book as opposed 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: to it perhaps being better as a long form blog 23 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: post or even a podcast episode. So I wanted to 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: know what Scott's take on this question was. 25 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 2: That's really hard. 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: It's hard because I feel like so few things are 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: actually good book ideas. To me, I feel like you 28 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 3: want something to be a coherent idea that requires that 29 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 3: amount of depth that like if you did less than that, 30 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: you'd be missing something. And I write most of my 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 3: stuff as essays or do little videos or even how 32 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 3: you can't even do like a series and stuff, and 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 3: so I like to write all over the range from like, 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 3: you know, the five hundred words up to you know, 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: two hundred thousand words or anything in between. So I 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 3: think you do have to kind of find that right 37 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 3: what's the right format? 38 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of. 39 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 3: Prestige and romanticism hooked up with the idea of doing 40 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 3: a book, which maybe isn't always realistic. So there definitely 41 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 3: is a lot of stuff where like, yeah, it's just 42 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 3: better to publish it as a blog post. 43 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: I would love to know, because we first spoke when 44 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: Ultra Learning, your first book was released, and that went 45 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: on to become a Wall Street journal for seller Congratulations, 46 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: like it did incredibly well, and I would love to 47 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: know how did you come up with the book idea 48 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: for your second book, which is now out. 49 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it was a long process. 50 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: I feel like the starting point was just doing a 51 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 3: lot of research because I think sometimes it's easy to 52 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 3: like get something, get some sort of hook, and then 53 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 3: rush into it and realize you don't necessarily have the 54 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: support you want to have for that. So for this book, 55 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: I spend a lot of time reading a lot of 56 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 3: things and spending a lot of time trying to figure 57 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 3: out what the big picture is, figure out what the 58 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: pattern is that I want to represent. So in this 59 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 3: book that went through a lot of different iterations. And 60 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 3: I think also it's useful to. 61 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: Have while you're doing that, you have a blog. 62 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 3: You can write about bits and pieces, so you can 63 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 3: get feedback on sort of smaller chunks of things before 64 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 3: you go to a big book. It's really hard to 65 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: I think, work on that entirely in isolation. 66 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: You are such a prolific writer and your blog has 67 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: been running I want to say for nearly twenty years. Yeah, 68 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: almost twenty years, yeah, yeah, which is nuts, and so 69 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: I imagine that is great for getting feedback. Can you 70 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: tell me about the ways that when you were in 71 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: that research stage and wanting to test out material, what 72 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: was your process for doing that. 73 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 3: The nice thing is you can kind of break off 74 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 3: like little ideas and little chunks. So you do some 75 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: research and you find something that's interesting, and then you 76 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 3: can write up again, like about two thousand words about 77 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: that thing, and it helps you get good feedback. So one, 78 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 3: it helps you see, you know, do people find this interesting, 79 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: which I think in this space of publishing is the 80 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: most important thing, like whether or not people find that 81 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 3: thing interesting that you're going to talk about. But then 82 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: also you get feedback on you know, what do people 83 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: take issue with? What do they accept without much questioning? 84 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 3: And that I think shapes where you put your emphasis, 85 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: because I think. 86 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: That's also a mistake. 87 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: Even if someone finds something interesting you can spend a 88 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 3: lot of time talking about, not the thing that requires 89 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 3: a lot of talking about. So I do think that's 90 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 3: helpful to do two feedback. And I know a lot 91 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 3: of authors that this has become their sort of process 92 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 3: that they get an initial idea and then the whole 93 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 3: time they're writing, like in parallel, their writing kind of 94 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 3: essays with little bits and pieces of the book, because 95 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 3: it helps to synchronize, It helps to get that sense 96 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: of this is a really good story, this is not 97 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 3: such a good story that you have to kind of 98 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 3: balance those different elements. 99 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: How are you using social media to test things? Because 100 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: I can say how you'd use a blog because you're 101 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: saying who's liking it, who's commenting, who's sharing, But tell 102 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: me how you're using other channels to test ideas. 103 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: I don't do as much social media directly as I 104 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,280 Speaker 3: used to, but I do know a lot of authors 105 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 3: like to use Twitter for like testing particular like sound 106 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: bites or like particular quotes and things like that, because 107 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 3: the format gives you a lot of feedback on a 108 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 3: really a small scale. 109 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: So I did use that a little bit before. 110 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: I don't use Twitter as much anymore, but that process 111 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 3: of like finding quotable things is often very powerful because 112 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 3: in a book now too, a lot of what gets shared. 113 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: Or these little excerpts and things like that. 114 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 3: So sometimes you want to have like, Okay, I've got 115 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 3: a big idea that maybe you're going to write five 116 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 3: thousand words for a chapter, but you want to have 117 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 3: also four or five things that is going to be 118 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: in the kindle highlighter that people are going. 119 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 2: To share later. 120 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: And I think that was also something that I kind 121 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: of neglected for my first book. So when I did 122 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,559 Speaker 3: the editing for this one, I went through and is like, okay, 123 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: I have a paragraph here, is there some way I 124 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 3: can summarize that in five words or something like that? 125 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: So I deliberately went. 126 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 3: Back through to add those kind of shorter things and like, yeah, Twitter, 127 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: I know a lot of people that are using it 128 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: extensively for testing these kinds of smaller things. 129 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: That's interesting about the highlights. It's so funny because I'm 130 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: a kindle reader. I highlight a lot on my Kindle. 131 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: Yet when I was writing my last book, The Health Habit, 132 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: that didn't even cross my mind. And I did a 133 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: lot of passes with the editing, as did my publishers 134 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: at Penguin, And I'm going to take that. I'm going 135 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: to take that as a note for. 136 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: My next book. 137 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you know what you were saying about the 138 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 3: highlighting thing. That was also something that struck me off. 139 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: But the way I'll tell you how I found out 140 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: this was important. So in my first book, James Clear, 141 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: who wrote the Mega bestseller Atomic Habits wrote the ForWord 142 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 3: for my first book, and when I was looking through it, now, 143 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 3: obviously the forward comes first, so that helps you with highlighters, 144 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: but I also noticed there were a lot more like 145 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 3: you know, recommended highlights from that forward to chapter. And 146 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 3: I noticed it was because James's writing style really lended 147 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 3: itself to having sentences you could pluck out of the 148 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 3: book and they would make sense without context. So I 149 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: thought about that when I did it, because everyone has 150 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 3: their own writing style. Mine is a little bit less 151 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 3: epigrammatic than someone like James Clear, but it is something 152 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 3: that you have to factor in because when you make 153 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 3: something these days, it's never just consumed in the format 154 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 3: you made it in. It's going to be chopped up, shared, 155 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: and so you also have to think about, well, how 156 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: is this going to play in a million different other platforms. 157 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 3: So that's one thing that I think about, is like, Okay, 158 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: what are going to be the quotes from this chapter? 159 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: Now, speaking of James Clear, one of the things that 160 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: I learned about you is that you are part of 161 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: a WhatsApp group that has quite a few high profile 162 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: nonfiction business book writers, where you're all sharing ideas and 163 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: learning from each other around creating books and selling books. Ultimately, 164 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: can you tell me a bit about this group. 165 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 3: Yes, this was a group that was started by a 166 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 3: friend of mine, Thago Forte, and I was kind of 167 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 3: mostly finished my book when I came in to join 168 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: on this. But I've been really getting the feeling that, 169 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 3: like a lot of these groups are, this is not 170 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 3: just an author phenomenon. This is happening in many different areas, 171 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: and so I was found very fascinating to be sort 172 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 3: of a part of this group because you see people, 173 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: well a lot of people are working through their problems 174 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 3: like I'm you know, I'm shopping around a book proposal, 175 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 3: or I've got a book and I'm trying to write it, 176 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 3: or I'm trying to market it or what have you. 177 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 3: But you get this real diversity of perspectives on things. 178 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: Now. They're a real. 179 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: Source of knowledge for a lot of these professions, and 180 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: I think especially for a somewhat opaque field like book publishing, 181 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 3: they can often be vital. Because one of the conversations 182 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 3: that happened in the group was someone who you know, 183 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 3: got kind of convinced to sign a really bad book deal, 184 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: and he was like trying to get out of it, 185 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 3: and it was a little bit like, ah, if you'd 186 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 3: had the group and he said, like, these are the 187 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: terms people like, Oh no, don't sign that. 188 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: That's really bad. 189 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 3: And I think we all get in these situations where 190 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: we don't realize that we're maybe not doing what we 191 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 3: should be doing just because we don't have that benefit 192 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: of other people's experiences. 193 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: What are some of the more surprising lessons or insights 194 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: that you've gained from that group. 195 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was nice to see in practice was how 196 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 3: much people who have like very successful books test things 197 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 3: before they run them. So one of the people in 198 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 3: the group, I'm gonna avoid naming too many names just 199 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 3: because these are not shared in privately, but he was 200 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 3: testing book covers. And normally what you do when you 201 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 3: write a book is that the publisher will like design 202 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 3: a few covers and then maybe you pick one or 203 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 3: maybe you don't like them, and then you go back 204 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 3: and forth a little bit and you settle on a 205 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 3: book cover. And I don't know exactly how he did it, 206 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 3: but they tested like something like one hundred different permutations 207 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 3: of this book cover with like Facebook ads to figure 208 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 3: out which one this is the color and this is 209 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 3: the graphic and did the same thing with the subtitle 210 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: and everything. So I thought that was interesting because that 211 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 3: was something that i'd heard about. I'd done a little 212 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 3: bit of it myself. But then you see, okay, this 213 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 3: is what some of the people who have New York 214 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 3: Times bestsellers are actually doing. 215 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: One of the things that surprised MAY during the book 216 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: cover process is thinking about twenty years ago. Really all 217 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: that mattered was what that book cover looks like in 218 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: real size twenty by twenty nine centimate is all something 219 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: like that. But now it needs to look really amazing, 220 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: sort of in about a two x three centimeter format 221 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: when you're scrolling on Amazon. And I find that so 222 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: interesting because it lends itself to quite a different kind 223 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: of graphic design. 224 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, that was my primary concern when I 225 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 3: was doing the first book. So I don't know if 226 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 3: people want to look at the side by side ultra learning, 227 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: which I really I liked the cover and like I 228 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: pick it up. 229 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: It looks nice. I really like how it looks. But 230 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: one of the things I noticed. 231 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 3: Immediately when it was on the website is that it's 232 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: not super high contrast. The back of the book is 233 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 3: kind of teal and the lettering is white, so it's 234 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: not maximally high contrast. And because it's ultra learning, which 235 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 3: is one word in the title of the book, it 236 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: has to be compressed to a fairly small font in 237 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 3: order to fit. And so when you shrink that down 238 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 3: to like a thumbnail, it's like very difficult to read. 239 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 3: You can have even squint, you can maybe read it. 240 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 3: And I realize that like my friend call Newport, he 241 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 3: wrote a book called Deep Work, which is two four 242 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 3: letter words and he has them yellow cover, big black font, 243 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, this reads easily in a. 244 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: Book cover, and it's it's funny. 245 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 3: But I think if you're scrolling on recommended books on Amazon, 246 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 3: I mean you can they'll also list the title somewhere else, 247 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 3: but as an image, if you can't read the title, 248 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: you're probably not thinking. 249 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: Much of it. And so I think it makes a 250 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: big difference. 251 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 3: And so definitely with this one, we ended up going 252 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: with a title where everything fit nicely into a square 253 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 3: and it was white on black, which I mean, if 254 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 3: I were only thinking about, you know, what would work 255 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 3: best in a bookstore, I wouldn't have cared about it. 256 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: But I was thinking, well, it's going to show up 257 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 3: on an audible feed somewhere, and if you can't read 258 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 3: it from the thumbnail, you're maybe aren't gonna click on it. 259 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: I've heard you say write what you like to read. 260 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about how you came to 261 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: that piece of advice and how you apply it. 262 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: I don't know where I heard this advice before. It's 263 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 2: definitely not my idea. 264 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: I definitely heard it from somewhere, But I think for 265 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: me it's been a big factor because I think it's 266 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: very difficult to succeed in creating a piece of writing 267 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 3: that is in a genre or style that you you 268 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 3: do not like. 269 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: I'd love to know more about how you pitch a 270 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: book idea to a publisher, And I think probably going 271 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: back and talking about Ultra Learning is the most useful 272 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: thing to do, because that was your first book. At 273 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: that point, you had no track record, whereas now I imagine 274 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: it was a pretty easy process. So can you talk 275 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: me through it? Maybe easier? Yeah, easier, So maybe talk 276 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: me through ultra learning and then what it's like for 277 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: the book that follows that. 278 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 3: Well, I got to say I was in a really 279 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 3: advantageous position too, because I know that the process varies. 280 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 3: But first thing you want to do. I think if 281 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 3: you're going to be trying to publish a nonfiction book, 282 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: is you want to find an agent, especially if you're 283 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 3: a first timer the publishing houses. It's like it's a weird, 284 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 3: complicated process. And I was really lucky because the agent 285 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 3: I have, Lori Abkoumeier, I'll give for a shout out 286 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: right here she was. I would say of the agents 287 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 3: that I've talked to, of authors that I've worked with, 288 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 3: was like quite rigorous about creating the proposal. So the 289 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 3: proposal when you write a nonfiction book essentially like a 290 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 3: business plan for the book. So it's sort of like, 291 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: here's the idea, here's why people are gonna like it, 292 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: Here's who I am to write the book. Here's a 293 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 3: sample chapter, here's my chapter outlines this kind of thing. 294 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: And I found that when I was working through Ultra Learning, 295 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 3: like we spent a lot of time on the proposal, 296 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: and my agent really helped me craft a really good one. 297 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 3: And I've seen other people's proposals, and I've definitely seen 298 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 3: ones that were a little bit more hastily scribbled out. 299 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 3: And I think it resulted in getting a better deal 300 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,239 Speaker 3: when we actually went out to pitch. 301 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: For the second book. Did you have to go through 302 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: the same process in terms of crafting a book proposal that, 303 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: as you said, it's like a business plan for a book, 304 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: and it can often be a pretty lengthy document. What 305 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: was that process? And also I heard that you also 306 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: pitched a completely different. 307 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: Idea I did. I did. 308 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 3: So I'll talk about what you should do, and then 309 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: I'll talk about my mistakes. 310 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 2: I'll follow that into that. So what you should do. 311 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: So when you write a second book, usually, or at 312 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 3: least this is a typical practice, is that the publisher 313 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 3: you work with has like a first low kind of 314 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 3: clause in the contract. So I published with Harper Business, 315 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: and so before I shop any other books are out, 316 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 3: I have to take it to them and they have 317 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,239 Speaker 3: to have a chance to make an offer. It encourages 318 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 3: that relationship with the publisher because I think it does 319 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 3: set up a lot of status quo for continuing with 320 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: the same publishers. I know people who have gone through 321 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: second and third books where they don't do nearly as 322 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 3: much work on the proposal because they already have that relationship. 323 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 3: It's you don't need to do as much persuading. But 324 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: working with my agent, we wanted to work more on 325 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 3: the proposal for the second one too, because well, one 326 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 3: reason is that a lot of working through the proposal 327 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: is working through the ideas, So it's just important work 328 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 3: to do regardless, and so it's not wasted effort. And 329 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: then second, just strategically, we didn't want to go in 330 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 3: and not. 331 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: Have anything ready. 332 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 3: So my book title and idea changed when I sort 333 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 3: of had it at Tenantive book deal. We hadn't inked 334 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: the contract yet, but I decided I changed my mind 335 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: about what idea I want to write about, and so 336 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: I don't recommend that for there's It turns out that 337 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 3: trying to write a different book than the one that 338 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 3: you'd initially pitched can be a little stressful with the publisher. 339 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,239 Speaker 2: But I think it was a sort of a byproduct 340 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: of how I write. 341 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 3: And how I do things that the original idea I 342 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: was going to write a book that was really focusing 343 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 3: on transfer of learning. 344 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: This was a phenomenon that I thought. 345 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 3: Was really important, had a lot of interesting research, but 346 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: I'd never seen any popular books that covered it, and 347 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: it was one of those things that where I had 348 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 3: done enough research to be interested in the idea, but 349 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: not so much to be like, Oh, the solutions that 350 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 3: I have that I want to talk about in the 351 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 3: book don't quite work the way I want to. And 352 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 3: so the book that I ended up writing took a 353 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 3: lot longer to gel because I had to research way more, 354 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 3: take a like much wider swath out to get a 355 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 3: bigger view of Terry would be like, Okay, what are 356 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 3: interesting ideas here that I'd like to pursue Instead, I 357 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 3: think with James Clear, took like an extra year to 358 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: write his book, and like the main structure of atomic habits, 359 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: he had like not figured out in the proposal, and 360 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 3: it took him a long time to figure out. I 361 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: know other people that they figured out along the way, 362 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 3: and I know other authors where like I've seen their 363 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: proposal and I've seen the finished book and I'm like, oh, wow, 364 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 3: this is so much better. One factor about this nonfiction 365 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: book publishing is that you know you can street jacket 366 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 3: yourself too much because there is a process of discovery. 367 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 3: I think in doing the research of like what actually 368 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: is interesting and important, it's hard to do if you 369 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 3: haven't filled out all of the little you know details yet. 370 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: We will be back with Scott soon talking about his 371 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: process for coming up with a book title that is 372 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: guaranteed to sell books. If you're looking for more tips 373 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 1: to improve the way you work and live, I write 374 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: a weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to 375 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: apply tips to improve your life. You can sign up 376 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: for that at Amantha dot substack dot com. That's Amantha 377 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: dot substack dot com. I feel like landing on a 378 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: title for a book can be one of the hardest things, 379 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: and you ended up calling your second book. Once you 380 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: change the angle get better at anything. I love that 381 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: as a title, but I want to know what was 382 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: the journey to get there. 383 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 2: I've done it both ways. 384 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: I've done titles for books and products and things like 385 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 3: that where we do rigorous testing, so we'll come up 386 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 3: with like six different titles, and then you do some 387 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 3: kind of split tests and you see what the responses are, 388 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 3: and you even have people ask surveys, so like, what 389 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 3: do you think this book is about? So you can 390 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 3: get like, all right, what's working? Once not working with 391 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 3: ultra learning, I didn't do that because the concept and 392 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: the idea were so linked that I didn't really feel 393 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: like I could call in anything else, like it was 394 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 3: like that was the book for this one here. I 395 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 3: didn't do that, but I think we did go through 396 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 3: a lot of different options qualitatively, and there's a lot riding. 397 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 2: On it, like a few little words of how you 398 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: do it. 399 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 3: And so this title actually was actually suggested by my editor. 400 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 3: We came up with it when we were talking about 401 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 3: different options and different ideas for the book. So I 402 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 3: think the best thing, the best advice, regardless of whether 403 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 3: you do a more soft qualitative or our number crunching approach, 404 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 3: is to just brainstorm tons and tons of titles, like 405 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 3: every possible permutation of the title for your book. And 406 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 3: so if you have two or three hundred names, there's 407 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: going to be like five or six that maybe you 408 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 3: like out of that two or three hundred, and then 409 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 3: and then you have some basis to like weigh it out, okay, 410 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 3: like do we like this, do we like that? 411 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: And go back and forth. 412 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: I know that research is a huge part of your 413 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: writing process. Can you talk me through how do you 414 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: approach researching a nonfiction business book? 415 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 416 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 3: And I'm going to speak for myself because I think 417 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 3: there's wildly ranging amounts of research that are done for 418 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,239 Speaker 3: books of this genre, But for me, I knew when 419 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 3: I was writing this book there were two factors. 420 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 2: That I knew it was going to make it more 421 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: research heavy. 422 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 3: So one is that I wanted this sort of core 423 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: of it to be built on science, which is not 424 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 3: always the case. If you're basing it on personal experience 425 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 3: or historical anecdotes or stories or things like that, or philosophy, 426 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 3: you maybe don't need quite as much research. So I 427 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 3: think if you're going to base it on some kind 428 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 3: of science, then you need to read a lot of science, 429 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: because it's hard to get a good picture of that 430 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 3: without doing it. And then the second reason was that, 431 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: compared to my first book, I wanted this book to 432 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 3: be a little bit more journalistic in its styles. And 433 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 3: so both of those things meant that I needed to 434 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 3: do a lot more research. Probably read maybe one hundred 435 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 3: and fifty books and maybe six seven hundred journal articles 436 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 3: or academic papers. I went through everything and organize it 437 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 3: so I could really get a clear picture of like 438 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 3: I have the research that's about this point. I have 439 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 3: it all in one place so I could find it again. 440 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 3: So that was a big thing. Was just being organized 441 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: when you know that you're going to go down that 442 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 3: rabbit hole and read a whole bout something. 443 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: I'm curious about because thinking of your timings for writing 444 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: get better at anything, GENII would have been fairly useful. 445 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: How do you use JENI in your writing process? 446 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. 447 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: I think the JENI kind of came a little late 448 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 3: because all the chatchypt. 449 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: And the large language models were really getting big. 450 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 3: I was certain near the tail end of writing the book, 451 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 3: and I was at a stage in writing that I 452 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 3: didn't use that much Jenai, like I'd already had my 453 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 3: research and my sources. 454 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 2: But I think if I were to start. 455 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: A new book now, I think I would use the 456 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 3: GENAI a lot earlier in the process for the brainstorming. 457 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 3: So I would be kind of saying things like, Okay, 458 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 3: so I want to talk about this and this and this, 459 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 3: like can you think of like historical antidotes or things 460 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 3: like this that would apply to that situation? And I mean, 461 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 3: it may not give me the story I want, and 462 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 3: I think especially the first blush stories are often not 463 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 3: the best ones, but it can give you a starting 464 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 3: point for doing research. And similarly, if you know you 465 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 3: want to cover a particular topic, you can use it 466 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 3: as a starting point for research. I think the weaknesses 467 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 3: are trying to use it too late in the game 468 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 3: when you really like you need to be nailing those 469 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 3: finer points, and if it's making stuff up, you're going 470 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: to be getting into trouble. I think I'll definitely be 471 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 3: using it as part of the ideation what are some 472 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 3: sources that are really to this, and then if I'm 473 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 3: following it up and doing my own reading and my 474 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 3: own research later than any kind of deficiencies in that 475 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 3: process are less noticeable. 476 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: How are you hearing about other writers, maybe in your 477 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: WhatsApp group, using chat japata and other lms to craft 478 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: their books. 479 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know about crafting books, but people 480 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: are using it all over the place for stuff. I 481 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 3: know people are doing like deep faking their own voice 482 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 3: to make audiobook versions. And there's people who are asked 483 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 3: this book. 484 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: A question kind of thing. 485 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 3: So they're training large language models and their text corpus 486 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: to like have some interactivity to it. 487 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 2: So I think there's a lot of interesting tools. 488 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 3: I gotta admit I'm like not an early adopter with 489 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: the large language model stuff. So I'm sure there's going 490 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 3: to be someone who's going to have like, this is 491 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 3: how all books are going to be written, and it 492 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 3: is going to incorporate AI, but I don't think that 493 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: person will be me to implement that. 494 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: Now we're obviously talking because you're on the publicity promotion 495 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: trail Forget Better at Anything, and I would love to 496 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: know what ye some of the things that authors need 497 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: to be thinking about, or your publishers suggesting to essentially 498 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: sell as many copies as. 499 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 3: Possible, I mean, the biggest thing, and this is pretty 500 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 3: clear when I do like the chat, how many people 501 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 3: you have on social channels and then also on a 502 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 3: newsletter I think is probably the best thing to have 503 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 3: if you're trying to sell a book. 504 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 2: Podcasts as well do really well, but having some kind 505 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: of direct. 506 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 3: Connection with the potential readers, I mean, that's everything. So 507 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 3: the biggest thing you can do, I think as a 508 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 3: writer these days is build an audience, and I think 509 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 3: the only way you can do that is having a 510 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 3: history of writing. So there are some people that mostly 511 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 3: write books and they mostly continue it that way. But 512 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 3: I think if you're only writing books, you're at a 513 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 3: real disadvantage because a book can take a. 514 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: Couple of years to write. 515 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 3: It's very hard to sustain a relationship with your audience 516 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 3: over a longer period of time. 517 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: So I think even people who publish like Stephen. 518 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 3: King level prolificness where they're publishing once a year, they 519 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 3: still build newsletters, they still have things they're releasing, even 520 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 3: if it's just to say, hey, I'm working on this 521 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 3: book right now, because you want to have those relationships 522 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: with people. 523 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: So that's the biggest thing I think you can do. 524 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 3: And then the second thing I think you can do 525 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 3: is letting your network know about the book. I think 526 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 3: that's another area where it's sort of up to your stamina. 527 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 3: When we're talking about going on podcasts, going and newsletters, 528 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 3: this kind of stuff that is in the medium term 529 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 3: where you have an appearance and maybe there's a few 530 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 3: thousand listeners for that one, it's mostly about how many 531 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 3: you have the stamina for. So I think there's also 532 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 3: a big difference between people who really give their all 533 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 3: for their promotion and they have a lot of conversations 534 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 3: they make sure they give the book out to everyone, 535 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 3: and people who are like, ah, I'll let the pr 536 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 3: team at at the publisher do that for you. If 537 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 3: you've worked really hard on your book and you think 538 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 3: it's worth reading, I think that it's sort of your duty, 539 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 3: I think, is the author to do the promotion for 540 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 3: it because no one else, no one else is going 541 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 3: to champion it for you. You think it is something 542 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 3: that people do appreciate. If you have some trepidation about 543 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 3: marketing yourself, I think you just have to go for it. 544 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: Now. 545 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: I know you spoke to James Clear before Atomic Habits 546 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: came out, and I would love to know what did 547 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 1: you learn from him about the publicity process. 548 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 3: So that is way back in the day, because I 549 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 3: knew James Clear from when he was just getting started 550 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: out and now, I mean, he's the most successful my 551 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 3: publisher at are Jokes. Now the bookstores are just selling 552 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 3: fiction and Atomic Habits like the two categories of books 553 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 3: they sell. So I mean, just his success is just 554 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 3: so spectacular that it's like a real almost coincidence that 555 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 3: I got to meet him before he became so successful. 556 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 3: And when he was writing Atomic Habits and I remember 557 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 3: getting the copy of the book. 558 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is a good book. 559 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it'll go well, and it'll do well 560 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 3: and it was it was, you know, New York Times 561 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 3: bestseller right off the bat, and it was quite successful. 562 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 3: And remember asking him, oh, how many podcasts did you 563 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 3: do for Atomic Habits? And I remember him telling me because 564 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 3: he did a bunch of recordings before the book came out. 565 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: He's like, oh, yeah, eighty episodes about. 566 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: The book came out the week the book launched, and 567 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 3: I did about two or three hundred in the first 568 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 3: six months. And I remember my jaw just dropped because 569 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 3: I could not believe, Well, I could not believe you 570 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 3: could have that. 571 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: Many conversations about one book. 572 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 3: But I also could not believe, like, just that intensity 573 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 3: was just insane to me. 574 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 2: Now part of it, I mean, if you have what is. 575 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 3: Going to be one of the best selling books of 576 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: the decade, a lot of people want to talk to you, 577 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 3: so it's easier to book things. But again it goes 578 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: back to that original point that he was also seeking 579 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: people out. He was trying to promote the book, he 580 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 3: was reaching out to podcasts, trying to book himself. 581 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: Wow, that is a losch. How do you become a 582 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: perennial seller? How do you actually sell copies? Beyond that launchway? 583 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 3: Everyone loves perennial seller. I talked to authors, it's like 584 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 3: the favorite phrase that people want to have for books. 585 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 3: So I'll use some numbers from Ultra Learning. So I 586 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 3: don't know off the top of my head the exact 587 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 3: number of copies we sold, but it was north of 588 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty thousand copies from Ultra Learning. And 589 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 3: the thing that I noticed is that I did a 590 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 3: lot of work to go into that launch week of 591 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 3: like trying to sell copies, but I think the first week, 592 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 3: which includes all the pre orders, which is another little 593 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 3: author secret, is that the first week includes the pre order. 594 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 3: So if you're going to hit New York Times or 595 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 3: my case, Wellster Journal, it's usually that first week because 596 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 3: you get like multiple weeks of people pre ordering, all 597 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 3: happening in the same. 598 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: Week of sales. 599 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 3: But the first week, I think I only had maybe 600 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 3: like fifty six hundred or something like that sales, And 601 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 3: so it's pretty clear that most people bought the book 602 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 3: after and long after I did a lot of the promotion. 603 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 3: Now it's still too early to say whether Ultra Learning 604 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 3: is going to be a true perennial seller, but I 605 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 3: think it's true that ultimately books sort of succeed or 606 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 3: fail on their merits. Like so, if your book sells 607 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 3: a lot, it gets a lot of reviews. If it 608 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 3: gets a lot of reviews, it gets more recommendations. If 609 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 3: it gets more recommendations, it shows up. So there's all 610 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 3: these like little loops where if the flywheel is already moving, 611 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 3: it will continue moving. If it's not moving, it's very 612 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 3: hard to get it moving. It's good to write a 613 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 3: good book and to write something that people are going 614 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 3: to pick it up, read it through, and recommend it. 615 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 3: I don't think that's a reason to neglect any of 616 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 3: the initial stuff just because if no one sees that 617 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 3: they can't recommend it, and so that you can't get 618 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 3: those flywheels of marketing going well. 619 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: Scott, I think you have achieved two brilliant books that 620 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: I have personally found very very helpful. I just want 621 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: to say thanks for coming on and just talking so 622 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: honestly about the whole process in terms of how the 623 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: sausage gets made. So thank you so much for coming 624 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: on and sharing all of this. 625 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Thank you for 626 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 2: having me back. 627 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: Scott's latest book, Get Better at Anything, is out now 628 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: and if you are interested in the process of learning 629 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: and how to acquire and master new skills fast, you 630 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: will love this book and also Scott's previous book, Ultra Learning. 631 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed today's episode, I would love to ask 632 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: a favor. Click follow on the podcast app that you're 633 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: listening to this on, and if you're feeling really generous, 634 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: leave a review for the show. Following this podcast and 635 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: leaving reviews helps How I Work find new listeners and 636 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: your support is one of the things that makes this 637 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: podcas possible. Thank you for sharing part of your day 638 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: with me by listening to How I Work. If you're 639 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: keen for more tips on how to work better, connect 640 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. 641 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work was recorded 642 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: on the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of 643 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: the cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being 644 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: able to work and live on this beautiful land and 645 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: I want to pay my respects to elder's past, present 646 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: and emerging. How I Work is produced by me Amantha Imba. 647 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: The episode producer was Rowena Murray, and thank you to 648 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: Martin Imba who does the audio mix for every episode 649 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.