1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: I think one of the challenges right now in this world. 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: People keep on talking about change fatigue. And I don't 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: know about you, but I don't believe in change fatigue. 4 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: I think humans are very good at change. I actually 5 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: think the thing we're struggling with right now is uncertainty. 6 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Right It's just not knowing what the hell's going on 7 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: and what's going to happen next, and that uncertainty I 8 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: think causes anxiety. So there was a whole lot of 9 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: discussion and debate about when our different offices around the 10 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: world would open, what that would look like you could 11 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: go back, and when a whole load of stuff, and so, 12 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, Mike and Scott, as our founders, came out 13 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: in one of our town halls the other week and said, 14 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: as and when our office is open around the world, 15 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: if you feel the desire to go back to an office, 16 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: you'll be. 17 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: More than welcome. 18 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: However, we will not expect anyone physically to be in 19 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: an lasting office before one January. And you could almost 20 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: hear the organization have a massive exhalation of breath and go, ohh. 21 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 3: Okay, welcome to How I Work. A show about the 22 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 3: technics are used by the world's most successful people to 23 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 3: get so much out of their day. I'm your host, 24 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 3: doctor Amantha Inba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of 25 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 3: behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways 26 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 3: to optimize my work date. Now, if you're a regular 27 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: listener of how I work, you'll know that something I've 28 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 3: been doing lately is going back to some of my 29 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 3: favorite guests and asking them about how has the way 30 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 3: their approaching work change in light of COVID and luckdown 31 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 3: and the new virtual world that we're in. So I'm 32 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 3: very excited to have Dom Price back on the show. 33 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 3: Dom is the head of research and development and also 34 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: the resident work futurist at at Lassian, one of the 35 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 3: world's biggest and fastest growing tech companies. Dom has responsibilities 36 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 3: spanning five global R and D centers and is also 37 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: the in house team doctor who helps Ablasian scale by 38 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 3: being ruthlessly effective all well keeping one eye on the 39 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: future of work. So I've known Dom for a few 40 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 3: years now, and one of the things I like most 41 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 3: about Dom is that he's so contrariant in his views 42 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: and he's not afraid to share them. So in this chat, 43 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 3: we cover a lot of different topics, ranging from how 44 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 3: the executive leadership team at Lassian have changed their meetings 45 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 3: around to make them work virtually. So Dom literally talks 46 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 3: us through some of those meetings he's been involved in 47 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 3: and how they're pretty different now and how they've been 48 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 3: experimenting with them to make them really effective, through to 49 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 3: what the future of work might look like. So on 50 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 3: that note, let's go to Dom to hear about how 51 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: he works. Dom, Welcome back to the show. 52 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me again. It's great to be back. 53 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you now. I 54 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 3: want to start by you painting a picture around your 55 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 3: life in kind of lockdown, because I know you're normally 56 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 3: in Sydney, but you have traveled. So can you sort 57 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: of like painted picture as to you're whereabouts for the 58 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 3: last you know, three or so months. 59 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been there. 60 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: It's been an interesting one, right, I'd call it a 61 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: rollercase in many regards, right, It's it's weird because I 62 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: think pre COVID, you know, both at Lassie and myself 63 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: have worked in a distributed fashion for quite a few years, 64 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: so it wasn't as if I had a desk in 65 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: the office where I was that I was lock two 66 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: nine to five Monday to Friday. So I've been relatively 67 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: nomadic for years. Anyway, that said, like as soon as 68 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: COVID hit and it was worked from home permanently, that 69 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: felt quite jarring. I really like the mix, the hybrid 70 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: mix of time alone at work, so time alone at 71 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: home for doing my deep work and my focus concentration. 72 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: But I really enjoy the social aspect of the workplace, 73 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: the incidental conversations, the catch ups, but also the sparring 74 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: and solving of those complex problems where you want to 75 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: be together on a whiteboard or sort of something more tacit. 76 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: And so I actually struggled immediately with the full time 77 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: work from home because it felt very transactional. Now, whilst 78 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: I struggled, it wasn't a massive assimilation, right, Like I say, 79 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: I'd been working in quite a distributed fashion for a while. 80 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: We already had the tools set up, We started to 81 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: adapt our ways of working in some of our rituals, 82 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: and so that started to feel relatively normal until I 83 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: got on a plane and went to the UK for 84 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: five weeks. 85 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: And in a weird way, and this is genuinely weird. 86 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: I actually have COVID to thank for making that more 87 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: doable because everyone I was working with was at home 88 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: and working quite strange hours. Right the challenge to working 89 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: hours had already kicked in. Me being in the UK 90 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: wasn't a problem. And I imagine had that happened in 91 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: a pre COVID time me being in a completely different 92 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: time zone and being the one person dialing in, I 93 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: would have been the second class citizen. Whereas because COVID 94 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: had got us all onto this level playing field, everyone 95 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: was dialing in, so it was no different than I was. 96 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: Those transitions have been fascinating. And then now returning to 97 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: Sydney and being in isolation, I'm spending two weeks locked 98 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: in the hotel room that I can't leave, but it's 99 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: not impacted by work in any way at all, because 100 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: I'm dialing into conversations just the same way as everyone else. 101 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: So in a weird way, I actually feel quite fortunate. 102 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 3: Wow. Interesting, Now I want to pick up on something 103 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 3: A couple of things that you said there, So working 104 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 3: from home permanently versus sometimes I totally get where you're 105 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 3: coming from, and I reckon this has been a really 106 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 3: big thing for people. So same thing at Inventium. We 107 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 3: work from home sometimes, so probably about fifty percent of 108 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 3: the time, and for me, I was working from home 109 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 3: maybe two three days a week. But it is so 110 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 3: different when it's all the time. So I want to know, like, 111 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 3: what were some of the things that you had to 112 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: change about how you worked to make what seems like 113 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 3: an insignificant shift, but it's such a big shift. 114 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a massive shift. 115 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the first one was, you know, 116 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: we relooked at a lot of our meetings and said, 117 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: how can we add stuff in to these meetings to 118 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: get some of that into personal connection. A quick example 119 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: our leadership team that we do every Wednesday morning. A 120 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, We're like, you know what, first 121 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: half an hour, just round the table, how are you? 122 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: Doesn't have to be work related, like how are you doing? 123 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: Because we weren't having those conversations. They're conversations that you'd 124 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: have when you'd see someone in passing, but they're very 125 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 1: rarely an a gender item, and so we said, cool, 126 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: let's make it an a gender item. First half of 127 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: the meeting like how you doing? And everyone got to 128 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: share very personal perspectives and that helps build the empathy 129 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: and the vulnerability and those meaningful connections. So sort of 130 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: carving time out for that really important stuff. It's not productive, 131 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,119 Speaker 1: it's not task management, it doesn't move a project along, 132 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: but it genuinely helps people connect and kind of care 133 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: about each other, and so we see it as valuable. 134 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 3: Oh, I want to ask, like, just dig into that, 135 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: because I think that's really interesting and I think it's 136 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 3: so important to be doing when we are working virtually, Like, 137 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: how like, at a really tactical level, do you structure 138 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 3: that How many people are in this meeting? Is it 139 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: like let's take it in terns and share or is 140 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 3: it more organic? Like what does that look like? And 141 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 3: that's for half an hour? 142 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: You said, yeah, I mean there was I think eight 143 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: or nine I was in that meeting that It wasn't structured. 144 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: It was like, whoever wants to go first, and then 145 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: when you've gone, nominate the next person, right, we just 146 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: took terms. 147 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: There was no. 148 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: It wasn't structured because what we wanted to do was 149 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: people to speak from their heart, right, And it definitely 150 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: happened because as each person shared, we just got this 151 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: new understanding of the challenges they're going through, and it's 152 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: so hard through zoom or any video medium to get 153 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: that interpersonal connection right. It's hard because we've taken away 154 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: a lot of the physical cues that happened when you're 155 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: in a shared space. We've taken away the incidental conversation 156 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: and made it very transactional. So we're like, cool, if 157 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: this medium feels more transactional, let's make caring for each other. 158 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: What are the transactions? 159 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: And it was weird. 160 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the first person went and they opened up 161 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: and the second person went. We supported each other, We 162 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: offered help to each other, We emphasis eyes with each other, 163 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: even not everything can be solved. It wasn't a I 164 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: can help you with that, like here's the solution. It 165 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: was I feel for you. You know, we've all got 166 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: stuff going on and it can be pretty crappy, and 167 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: that's okay. It's all right if we're not loving stuff 168 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: right now, but let's have that conversation. And for me personally, 169 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: just sharing some of that stuff made me feel a 170 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: bit better. But also understanding that my teammates, who sometimes 171 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: I think is superhuman because of what they've achieved, it 172 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: just reminded me that We're all just humans at the 173 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: end of the day. Right with whatever huge achievements we've got, 174 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: we've all got the same vulnerabilities and frailties, and it's 175 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: just a great reminder to be there for each other 176 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: and support each other as humans first. 177 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 3: I think that's so true. It's so important. Like a 178 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 3: couple of other interesting ways I've heard meetings open. I 179 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: had Maya Friedman back on the show from Mom and 180 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 3: Mea and she was talking about here how in her 181 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 3: leadership meetings they started with a question of how you're 182 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 3: going at work, give us a score out of ten, 183 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 3: and how you're going in your personal life, give us 184 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 3: a score out of ten, just as a way of 185 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 3: like doing that quick check in so that no one 186 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 3: slipped under the radar. And then it also reminds me, 187 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: so I have like a peer mentoring group that I've 188 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: been part of for about three years of other female 189 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 3: founder CEO types, and how we start all our meetings, 190 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 3: and this was pre COVID, but I think it's more 191 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: important now is that we each do a three minute 192 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: check in. So there's nine of us, and basically that 193 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 3: three minute check in is to talk about what we 194 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 3: call like the five percenters, So the best five percent 195 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: things that have happened in the last month, and the 196 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 3: worst five percent things like basically strip out all the 197 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 3: small talk, which I've found to be a super useful 198 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 3: structure and like really useful for what's going on now. 199 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also I mean that the five percent thing 200 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: is another sort of theme that we've been using to 201 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: say in certainly in COVID and distributed world, how do 202 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: we not ignore the edge cases? How do we not 203 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: ignore Like you could do a pull survey and go, oh, 204 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: brilliant news. Eighty five percent of our people in our 205 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: full survey said that they were feeling fine with remote work. 206 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: So we're nailing it, and you're like, cool, what about 207 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: the fifteen percent that hate it? Like how much do 208 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: they hate it? And what's going on with them? Like 209 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: they're the ones we should care about. Equal its. It's 210 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: not a scoring system. One of the other things we found, 211 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: and I can certainly agree with this, is is the 212 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: solution to find harmony in this isn't a one size 213 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: fits all. It's very personal. I think what COVID has 214 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: done is it's exacerbated everyone's personal situation. Some of my 215 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: colleagues are single parents, some are parents of young children 216 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: who are in a case in a schooling or or 217 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: education system. I know a whole lot of people who, 218 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, for whatever sort of cultural reasons, looking after 219 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: their parents who are living with them or and share houses. 220 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: And you're like, whilst in theory COVID, you know, everyone 221 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: gets on saying this is a great level playing field 222 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: because we're all going through it. I think that sort 223 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: of statement hides the fact that we're all going through 224 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: it differently. We're all going through a very different experience. 225 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: And so one of the things we've focused on at 226 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: last Yon is how can we understand and empathize with 227 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: each experience and help people solve those individually. The one 228 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: for me, I mean, I'm fortunate, right, I live alone, 229 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: so I've not got those challenges of children screaming in 230 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: the background or house mates trying to hug the internet. 231 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: But for me, one of mysonality checks, because I was 232 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: missing a lot of conversation, was I convert one zoom 233 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: meeting each day to a phone call and I put 234 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: my headset in and I go outside and I walk 235 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: for an hour whilst I chat. It's a different way 236 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: of connecting. It gives my brain a different usage. It 237 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: gets me to stroll and other stuff. But again it's 238 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 1: just breaking up the day. Because one of the things 239 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: I found, and I know people sort of who are 240 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: struggling with this as well, the challenge with working from 241 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: home is you miss the ritual of packing up your desk. 242 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: So there's a beauty to the workplace is you leave it. 243 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: And when you leave it, you notionally tell your brain 244 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: I'm not working anymore. 245 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 2: Right. 246 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: You might check a message or pick someone on Slack 247 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: or something on your phone, but you're not deep in work. 248 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: Whereas when you're working from home, you kind of leave 249 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: the laptop and you go and cook some dinner. Still there, 250 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: so I'll actually do another half an hour, I'll mctual 251 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: do another hour and get ahead. And so we've lost 252 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: the ritual of how we break up the work day 253 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: and the home day. And so one of the things 254 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: I added in was making myself a tea or a 255 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: coffee or a drink and going sitting on my balcony 256 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: for half an hour with music, so no laptop, just 257 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: with music, and then going back into my living room, 258 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: which is also where my desk and laptop is. But 259 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 1: when I go back into my living room. It's not 260 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: to work, it's for the evening to relax and doing 261 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: that sort of brain split of work is now finished. 262 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: It's time to detox and recharge and relax. 263 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 3: That's awesome. I love that. And what other kind of 264 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 3: rituals or kind of daily habits or things like that 265 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: have you found to be really useful in adjusting to 266 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: this time and working from home permanently. 267 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: I think one of the I'll answer that a slightly 268 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: different way. I want to talk about one of the 269 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: mistakes that I made. Actually early on, there was a 270 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: whole lot of people that I was working with who 271 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: were a little bit overwhelmed with the COVID situation in 272 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: terms of kids or partners or family or whatever was 273 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: going on, and it. 274 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: Was hard for them. 275 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: And the mistake that I made, and I'll claim it 276 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: was good intent, it certainly wasn't malicious, was I started 277 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: to buffer information from them because I didn't want to 278 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: overwhelm them anymore. 279 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 2: And it was anyone. 280 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: I was looking back over one of Kim Scott's podcasts 281 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: from her book and I was like, Ah, that's ruinous empathy. Inadvertently, 282 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: the things that I'm sort of hiding from them. They're 283 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: actually thinking about anyway, and in their mind they're imagining 284 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: it far worse than anything I could have told them, 285 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: and so my buffering system wasn't working it. So I 286 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: had to find a way of being open with people 287 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: but then having the articulate conversation of saying this isn't 288 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: something I need you to worry about, like I've got this, 289 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to try and solve it, and just letting 290 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: you know that I'm on it. So still being open 291 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: with the communication, but even clearer with the accountability. So 292 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: I made the mistake on that first before sort of remedying, 293 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: and then the other one was kind of making sure 294 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: we take out time for creativity, for curiosity. But almost 295 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: more important than either of those two is team cohesion. 296 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: We did an exercise a couple of weeks ago some 297 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: of our senior leaders, and normally our meetings. 298 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 2: Are pretty full on. 299 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: We're trying to solve complex problems that are often time 300 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: bound and haven't got perfect answers to but we switched 301 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: one of our sessions to something called Pino and Picasso. 302 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: So it's a company that used to do it was 303 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: an art studio where they used to do it in 304 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: person painting. They pivoted their business to do online painting, 305 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: so they send you a package. It comes with a 306 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: little easel and some canvas and some paints and a 307 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: voucher to get yourself some pino and we all gathered 308 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: on a zoom call and painted together. It was a 309 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: guided art class and it was absolutely hilarious. Hilarious because 310 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: we didn't talk shop once. There was no strategy discussion 311 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: or finances or end of quarter or goals. A lot 312 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: of people's partners or kids joined in, so it's a 313 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: way more sort of family friendly event and just like 314 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: anything to do with it Lastian, it became highly competitive. 315 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: But the funny part was there was no amount of 316 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: it being competitive that made any of our pictures good. Right, 317 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: the fact that we're all trying to one up each 318 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: other and beat each other, and the banter and the 319 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: conversation was hilarious. When we did the big reveal in 320 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: our pictures, there was just huge amounts of laughter because 321 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: there is no risk of any of us becoming artists. 322 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: But it was a good It ended up lasting like 323 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: an hour and a half or two hours. A lost 324 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: track of time, but we just we chatted, We hung out, 325 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: not not physically, but we got to hang out. And 326 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: it's not the perfect replacement for doing that in person, 327 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: but it was a damn good way of just building 328 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: that cohesion as a team again, to work out that 329 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: you can still have fun together even though we're heavily distributed. 330 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: That's awesome. And I want to know own your leadership meetings, 331 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 3: your leadership team meetings about how you are now solving 332 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: problems together, Like what structure are you using, what software 333 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: are you using, how are you facilitating that? Like what 334 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: what would I observe if I was kind of like 335 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: dialing into one of those meetings. 336 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had to sort of sharpen our pencil there. 337 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: You suddenly realize how many informal rituals and mechanisms you 338 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: have in person, certainly around note taking, actions, decisions, reading 339 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: body language. What are we doing about that? It's way 340 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: more dynamic because in an in person meeting you can 341 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: have more than one voice. But if you look at 342 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: the way most video technology works, it really only enables 343 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: one voice at one point in time, right, And if 344 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: you're on Zoom or any of these other tools and 345 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: the three people talk, you get this No no you go no, no, 346 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: you go, no't a matter for you go right, it's 347 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: we all become overly polite. One of the things we've 348 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: done is making sure we have clear roles at the 349 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: start of any meeting. So in our leadership meeting, we 350 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: have au a wonderful lady Nikki, who's like our operations person. 351 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: She keeps us honest. 352 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: And so when we all start debating something, Nicky's the 353 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: one who changes it and goes, is there a decision here? 354 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: Is there an action? Do we need to take this offline? 355 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: Do we need to push this now? Is this a 356 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: good use of our time? Just to keep us honest? 357 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: And then what we've found is often if we need 358 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: to go deep, we will allocate it to one or 359 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: two people and go cool, you go and take this 360 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: away next meeting, come back with your update, and we 361 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 1: can work on it asynchronously across the week throughout. But 362 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: actually we want to save that synchronous time for complex 363 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: problem solving in debate and discussion. And then what's the 364 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: stuff we can do asynchronously and that way it's easier 365 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: for everyone to consume. And then the other thing that 366 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: we've added into there, and I think We've spoken about 367 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: this before, but I think we've become more sort of 368 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: heightened on it is the one way door, two way door. 369 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: So the one way door decisions are once you've made 370 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: that decision, it's done right. They're the decisions you want 371 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: to measure twice and cut once. You want to deliberate, 372 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: consule and analyze, get all the data and be relatively 373 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: confident you're making the right decision. But the vast majority 374 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: of decisions that we make on a daily basis are 375 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: two way doors. All right, if you walk through the door, 376 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: you find out what's the other side, but if you 377 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: don't like it, you pay a toll for coming back 378 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: through the door. And what we find is that where 379 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: there are two way door decisions, we allocate them to 380 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: the person who we think is that somebody are r expert, 381 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: and we're like, come back with the decision. You make, 382 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,959 Speaker 1: the pros, the columns, the options bring back a page. 383 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: So normally we use confluence or trello, show us the options, 384 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: tell us the decision you've made. Cool, let's proceed. So 385 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: we will discuss and debate for a short period of 386 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: time to help the person, but we're not going to 387 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: overly debate those decisions because we learn a lot more 388 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: by making them and then listening and learning. And I 389 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: think that's almost more true now than ever before, because 390 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: there's so much uncertainty around the world right now. The 391 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: idea of perfect decision making, it just doesn't exist. So 392 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, if you can't make perfect decisions, make 393 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: quick ones instead and just make sure you're able to 394 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: listen and learn from them. 395 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 3: That's so good. I think that's such good advice. Well, like, 396 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: what else would I say, Like, for example, how are 397 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 3: you overcoming the very annoying fact that two people can't 398 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 3: talk at the same time and you've got the awkward 399 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 3: no you go, you go, like, how are you getting 400 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: around that? 401 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things, is kind of 402 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: we're just getting used to it. I think when it's 403 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: only kind of if every fifth meeting with video that 404 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: feels a bit awkward, Whereas now we've just got into 405 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: a little bit more of a routine. 406 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 2: You know. 407 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: What we're trying to do is keep our meetings a 408 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: little bit smaller where we can. There seems to be 409 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: a tipping point, and I've not I did see some 410 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: suggested science on this, but I'm not sure I believe 411 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: it yet, that there's a tipping point on the size 412 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: of meetings where people just can't contribute and they get 413 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: easily distracted. And then for us, it's about having clear 414 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: roles and agendas. 415 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: And what is that size like, what have you found 416 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 3: in terms of meeting size, in terms of what's what's 417 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 3: the optimal, what's getting a little bit too big, what's 418 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 3: definitely too big. 419 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: For me personally? Anything over eight. Right, it's no longer 420 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: a meeting, it's a broadcast. 421 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 2: Right. 422 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: So I did a session yesterday. Thirty five people dialed in. Right, 423 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 1: it's brilliant. It's me doing a presentation to our marketing 424 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: team on the future of work. The way I structured 425 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: it was, I'm going to present for twenty thirty minutes. 426 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: Use the chat function in Zoom to log your questions 427 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: as you think of them, so you can ask them 428 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: as you instead of interrupting me. Log them in there 429 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: as you think about them, so I've got free flow, 430 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: and then the second half of the meeting, we'll go 431 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: through the qu the q and A, and the discussion. 432 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: I already had the list of questions because I could 433 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: see people's names against them, and that meant that we 434 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: could have smaller dialogue and conversation and we could keep 435 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: it to those points. Right, So everyone's still engaged and 436 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: I've got some level of collaboration. It's not the same 437 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: as doing it in the room, and I wouldn't claim 438 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: it was, but at least we got some of the 439 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: richness and the feedback loop. And I mentioned that on 440 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: purpose because I think a danger that I've seen for 441 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: or a mistake for a lot of leaders, is they're 442 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: using this time of COVID and distributed to just broadcast 443 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: more and they're inadvertently listening less. Right, There's lots of 444 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: people doing loom videos or zoom videos pushing content out, 445 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: but they've forgotten that real communication is using your ears 446 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: as well. Right, It's not just using your moth. And 447 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: if we lose that sort of message check and understanding 448 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: how we made people feel and the actions they took, 449 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: then there's no point in doing the broadcast. 450 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 3: I like that a lot. I like your use of 451 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 3: the chat function, like what I've been doing. I've been 452 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: doing a lot of virtual keynotes now for clients and events, 453 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 3: and I love that I can have the chat box 454 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 3: open on my screen so I can almost hear people's 455 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 3: reactions live because I encourage people to type into the 456 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 3: chat box and I kind of react where I can. 457 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 3: But it's funny. I had this experience a couple of 458 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 3: days ago where I was doing a virtual keynote to 459 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 3: a biotech company. There are about four hundred people online, 460 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 3: and as always I encouraged sort of chattered through the 461 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 3: chat box, and they were so chatting, which is awesome, 462 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 3: but then I'm like, hang on, no, this is overwhelming 463 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 3: for me. I cannot respond to everyone. So I like 464 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 3: what you're doing in terms of having the chat box 465 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 3: open so you can kind of see what's going on there, 466 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 3: but then carving out time to respond to all that. 467 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 3: So you've got people recording their reactions and questions in 468 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 3: real time, but then it's also not interrupting your flow, 469 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 3: and I imagine that one of the benefits to that 470 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 3: is that you're also getting responses from more introverted people 471 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 3: who perhaps wouldn't normally speak up. Are you finding that, Yeah, I. 472 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: Mean that's what you've hit the nail on the head, right, 473 00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 2: which is yeah. 474 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: Again, I think I think distributed and the technology using 475 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: now can exacerbate that problem. Right, You can quite easily hide. 476 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: If there's eight people in a video chat, it's that 477 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: easy to hide, right, you can just get your phone 478 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: out and catch up on you to do list and 479 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: just leave the video playing, because if they don't hear 480 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: from you, they don't know what you've not said. I 481 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: think it's a lot easier as a facilitator. For me, 482 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to spot that in a room. 483 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: But then I think that's the role of a great 484 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: facilitator still, right. We make sure that, certainly for our 485 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: larger meetings when we're doing problem solving, we have someone 486 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: almost facilitating, like Nikki the operations person, facilitating that conversation 487 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: to keep us honest, keep us on tracks as top 488 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: us going down those those rabbit holes, but also to 489 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: make sure we're getting the right level engagement. It's not 490 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: that all eight people should have a say in all decisions. 491 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: It's just making sure we tap the right person. So 492 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: it's like, ahh, Dom, I've heard from you. I've heard 493 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: from you, but am out there. I'd love to hear 494 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,439 Speaker 1: your opinion on this because I think you might have 495 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: a view that's important and bringing that person in that's 496 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: the same in person is on video. I think it's 497 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: just more important to do on video. And that's what 498 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: the second half of that presentation gave me because suddenly, 499 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: when I stopped sharing my presentation, everyone appears on screen, right, 500 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: So I've changed from broadcast to consumption, so I can 501 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: see the people, but also then my job to go, 502 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: hey the teacher. I love that question, Becky. I'd love 503 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: to hear your view on that, because I've worked with 504 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: you on this thing before, Like what's your view? So 505 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: actually I reckon half the answers came from other people 506 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: on the call, right, which again is just I think 507 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: facilitation one on one. But one of the things that 508 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: I believe to be true in this distributed world is 509 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: that the things in leadership that we used to call 510 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: soft skills, and I know me and you share a 511 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: view on this, they're not soft. They're really hard. But 512 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: those soft skills are becoming even more powerful. You know, 513 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: meaningful communication, you know, genuine empathy, the ability to deliver 514 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: a vulnerable, open, honest, authentic message, to be oneself and 515 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: to be true to oneself. Those things are even more 516 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: valuable than ever before. And so I think what we're 517 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: going to see is the people that do that, not seamlessly. 518 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: But the people that do that naturally are going to 519 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: become way stronger and better leaders as they evolve. And 520 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: I think that's a skill set that It's not something 521 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 1: that we're born with, right. I think it's something that 522 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,120 Speaker 1: and evs can go and learn by getting to understand 523 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: communication or storytelling. 524 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 3: Even more, I couldn't agree more. And I think it's 525 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 3: it's really interesting how to sort of set that stage 526 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,239 Speaker 3: so that you are inviting that vulnerability in And like, 527 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: I love how you described around how you're kicking off 528 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 3: those leadership meetings with sharing the personal And interestingly, I 529 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 3: interviewed Rachel Batsman again for a second time in the podcast. 530 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 3: It hasn't gone live yet, but I did that a 531 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 3: few nights ago, and she was talking about how something 532 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 3: she thinks about a lot with her virtual keynotes is 533 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 3: what she calls settling the room and kind of you know, 534 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 3: imagining that like just the context witch that's happening when 535 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 3: you're going from virtual meeting to virtual meeting and then 536 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 3: you're sitting you know, here for a webinar or a 537 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 3: keenot to something like that, and so she'll spend the 538 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 3: first five minutes kind of the room getting them in 539 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 3: the mood or the state that she wants them to be, 540 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 3: and through designing that first five minutes really carefully. And 541 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 3: I'm curious, like, what, what have you been doing almost 542 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 3: to set the scene or settle the room, or however 543 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 3: you want to describe that, or what if you have experienced, Steven, 544 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 3: that's worked really well for those first few minutes of 545 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 3: a broadcast or a meeting. 546 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: I think for meetings. I tried something yesterday with a 547 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: few senior leaders are doing an event with one of 548 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: our large customers in Canada, and we were chatting away 549 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: about a whole of stuff, and I decided to use 550 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: the power of the question because someone had asked me 551 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: a question and I was about to answer it, which 552 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: is not unusual for me to sort of suddenly jump 553 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: at the idea of answering a question. I was like, no, 554 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm not going to answer it. I'm going to ask 555 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: a different question back. Because we were talking about stuff 556 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: and about inspiration and being vulnerable, and it was very 557 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: easy for me to give a generic answer, but instead 558 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: I turned to the person that had asked me the question, 559 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: and I said, can I ask you a question? Who's 560 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: the person that's had the biggest impacts on you in 561 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: your life and what impact did they have and what's 562 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: your proudest achievement today? 563 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 2: And they were like, oh okay. 564 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: So they shared sort of a two minute story back 565 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: and it's like cool, there's vulnerability and storytelling. You just 566 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: did it. You don't need me, like it just happened. 567 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: And they were like, oh yeah, oh wow, Yeah, I 568 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: didn't even realize I might know. And this is the 569 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: thing is is we need to invite each other to 570 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: use the space, all right, and we need to make 571 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: it safe to use that space. But inadvertently what we're 572 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: doing is is it's very easy for you to ask 573 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 1: me a question, me to answer it, and for us 574 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: to move on right. What's a lot harder is a 575 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: dynamic conversation like we're having now, where you're able to 576 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: hear what I say and say, oh, I chatted to 577 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: Rachel Botsburn or I chatted this other person and you 578 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: can actually almost see the rollercoaster of the conversation right 579 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: as it takes on different angles. That's a lot harder 580 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: to do when you're not in person. Now, Fortunately for 581 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: me and you, we've made each other a number of times, 582 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: we've hung out and so we've got the trust and 583 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: the relationship. But where you're doing this with groups of 584 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: people that you don't know, it's very hard to second 585 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: guess on that. One of the tactics I've been using 586 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: on broadcast is just to share a story, to open 587 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: up by going. And actually did this at an event 588 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: the other week, and I was like, and these were 589 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: people that I kind of knew relatively well, or they 590 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: knew of me. And I was like, you know, hi, 591 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: my name's Dom and I'm really struggling with remote work 592 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: right and I'm not. 593 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: Loving it, and here's why. 594 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: And it was weird because I would say you could 595 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: almost hear a pin drop in the room, except you 596 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: couldn't hear anything because I've muted everyone. But what you 597 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: could see with everyone, everyone go ah. I didn't expect that. 598 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: I think everyone arrived thinking it was going to be 599 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: an infomercial for why remote works the best answer to everything, 600 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: and I was like, maybe it's not. Maybe it's actually 601 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 1: a question and we've not yet worked out the answer, 602 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: or maybe the answer is a hybrid approach, and maybe 603 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: the danger is we try and do one size fits 604 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: all and actually that ruins everything that we've thought about 605 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: around diversity inclusion. Because one size fits all, it's likely 606 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: going to be built for the majority, which might not 607 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: be what we want. So how do we cater to 608 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: the people on the edge. And so that end being 609 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: a great conversation, I think because I'd opened up with 610 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: something genuine. But again, it helps set the tone in 611 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,239 Speaker 1: the room to say I haven't got the actors. I mean, 612 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: I've got the title of futurist. That doesn't mean I 613 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen in the future. It just 614 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: means I spend my time thinking about the future. It 615 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: doesn't make me any smarter than anyone else. I just 616 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,239 Speaker 1: dedicate more time to it. And so I think one 617 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: of the challenges right now is a few people are 618 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: trying to be really certain about what's going to happen, 619 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: and to be honest, it leaves a bit of a 620 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: nasty taste in my mouth, because I think we're better 621 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: off just saying I don't know. I don't know what's 622 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: going to happen. I'm open to experimentation and trying things 623 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: and sharing lessons learned, but I think we're naive and 624 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: ignorant if we say we know what's. 625 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 3: Going to happen, definitely, And I want to pick up 626 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 3: on what you said about like the edge cases and 627 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 3: also just that you're trying to take a really individualized 628 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 3: approach because some people are thriving in the current environment, 629 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 3: and yet there's a lot of people that are really struggling, 630 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: and so how do you do that in a company 631 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 3: that is the size of a Lascian And for those 632 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 3: that don't know, like, what's your approximate head count? 633 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're about four and r five thousand people globally, 634 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, if you that's me. Three months ago, we 635 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: were spread across twelve development centers. If you ask me today, 636 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: we're spread all over the world. God knows where people are. 637 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: I have no idea, and amazingly it doesn't matter, like 638 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: it actually doesn't matter that I don't know where they are. 639 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: There's two ways, there's two real ways of doing it, Amantha. 640 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: One is, you know, we've been using regular pull surveys. 641 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: We've tried to keep them as brief but as articulate 642 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: as possible, just to get that en mass of how 643 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: are people feeling, what's the response, and then sharing back 644 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: with them here's what we heard you say, here's the data. 645 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: Here's the thing we're going to try. You know, we 646 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: heard probably six or eight weeks ago, loneliness was starting 647 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: to creep up as a lead indicator, and we knew 648 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: that wasn't a great thing. Amazingly, Tammy, who's our as 649 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: a global sort of chief HR officer, decided to put 650 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: a program together and last week we had Resiliency Week 651 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: and we had some literally mic drop moments of amazing 652 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: external speakers sharing stories, practical advice on how to manage 653 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: resilience and grit and the bounce back and hard times 654 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: and good times and loneliness, and it was beyond inspirational, right, 655 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 1: It was a huge moment. But that was met not 656 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: only by the rich content, but what we suddenly saw 657 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: as a whole lot of people from all shapes and 658 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: sizes and backgrounds blogging internally sharing their stories. 659 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 2: And it wasn't just. 660 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't like a competition for who had the worst history, right, 661 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: There's a whole lot of positive stories and some sad 662 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: stories from people and you're like, wow, people are showing 663 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: their resilience by sharing their background, their experience, their wisdom 664 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: and hardship, but how they've come through that. 665 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 2: And then the second one. 666 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: Is using the power of our sort of management people structure, right, 667 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: is how do you democratized solutions? And so I'd say 668 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: that we've probably gone to eighty percent on helping our 669 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: managers with here's the hr things that you can do. 670 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: Here is what you can do around leave or giving 671 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: people space or time, or changing working hours, working conditions. 672 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: Here's your on. 673 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: You know, we gave everyone five hundred US dollars equivalent 674 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: around the world to set up their home office space. Right, 675 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: So there's a whole lot of stuff we've done globally, 676 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: and I reckon that gives us an eighty percent of 677 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: the solution. And then what we said to our frontline 678 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,479 Speaker 1: leaders is we expect you to do the final twenty percent. Right, 679 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: you're doing the last mile, and here's how you do that. 680 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: You have a meaningful conversation with your team, certainly is 681 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: with individuals, and you find out how they're doing, You 682 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: find out the things are struggling with, you find out 683 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: the things that are going okay. Then you work with 684 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: them to solve that and we trust you, like, here's 685 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: the tools to do that, but we don't have the answer. 686 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: It's a conversation. You need to have with that person. 687 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: And I think not only in COVID crisis time, but 688 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: long term for us, that's always going to be the 689 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: model of how we scale this kind of thing, because 690 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: if you try and do the eighty percent to one 691 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: hundred percent and you do one size fits all, it 692 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: doesn't cater to those edge cases. It just doesn't happen. 693 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: Right. 694 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: If you make everything a personal life solution, all your 695 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,479 Speaker 1: people leaders will ever be doing is managing that situation, right. 696 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: They'll never get any actual work done. And so that 697 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: kind of eighty twenty rule works for us in terms 698 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: of giving people enough structure, but allowing them to personalize 699 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: that to the people that they're helping fix. 700 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 3: I really like that. I haven't heard that idea before 701 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 3: in terms of the sort of eighty percent wine size 702 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 3: fits all and then the final mile the twenty percent, 703 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 3: leaving that to the people managers to tailor. That makes 704 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 3: so much sense. 705 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it requires a huge amount of trust, right, 706 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: It doesn't happen by accident. It requires a lot of trust. 707 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: For a lot of our people managers. It might be 708 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: the first time they're in people leadership roles, so they 709 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: might need more support. It might not be natural to them, 710 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: but I mean, hell, let's coach them through it, because 711 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: if there's ever a time for them to get good 712 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: at it, it's now. So it's not easy, but it 713 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: feels like the right investment long term. 714 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, something I was curious about. So Trello is a 715 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 3: software company that at Lassion had acquired I want to 716 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 3: say a few years ago now, and they're famous for 717 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 3: one hundred percent remote working. And I'm curious as to 718 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 3: what has Lassian been able to learn and apply from 719 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 3: what Trello was already doing pre covid. 720 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great, right, So this is why I love 721 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: the fact that I know you well and we can 722 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: have on as conversations. Right, So, just before we acquired Trello, 723 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: we honestly thought we were pretty good at remote work, 724 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: Like we had a good percentage of the organization working 725 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: remote and we were I don't think it was arrogance 726 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: or ignorance. We just actually we had no other comparison, 727 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: Like it felt like we were doing okay, and we 728 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: probably were doing okay. And it was only when we 729 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: acquired Trello. And thankfully, the way our acquisitions work, and 730 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: I've got Scott and Mike to thank for this. We've 731 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: probably done seventeen eighteen acquisitions in our in our history. 732 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 1: Every single time they do a transaction and an acquisition, 733 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: they're like, what can we learn from them? Because we're 734 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: buying a company because it's awesome, so let's not make 735 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: them follow our way. What can we learn from them? 736 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: And obviously that exchange with Trello, we learned that over 737 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: fifty percent of their workforce was remote and we're like, wow, 738 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: fifty percent, that's a lot. I mean, how does that work? 739 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: How does that scale? And once we sort of started 740 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: to learn from Trello, there was this moment of sort 741 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: of sadness and embarrassed it when we're like, hey, you 742 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: know how we thought we were really good at this, 743 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: We're really not, like we've really we're like mediocre at best, 744 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: We're pretty average, But you know what, we're keen to learn, 745 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 1: and we were. 746 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 2: King to learn that. 747 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 1: The very first principle I met. I met Michael Pryor, 748 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 1: who was the CEO of Trello and still heads up 749 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: that product. He's an amazing sort of software technology visionary. 750 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: And Michael had shared a story where one of the 751 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: things they do did at Trello was if one person 752 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: dials in, everyone dials in. And I was in New 753 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: York at the time in the office, like we still 754 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: have an office in New York there, and so they 755 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: had an all hands meeting and everyone goes off to 756 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: different corners of the office to dial in, and I'm like, well, 757 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: where should I sit because I assumed there'd be a 758 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: space for everyone in the office to sit together. And 759 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: he's like, no, if one person dials in, we all 760 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: dial in now, I'll be honest. It felt so clunky 761 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: at first. I'm like, this is weird. I don't know 762 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: why you're doing it. And then I took part in it, 763 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: and I was chating to him after was and like, 764 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: this is genius because instead of saying to people you 765 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: need to empathize with the other people, you just created 766 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,799 Speaker 1: a level playing field. Because we've all been in those 767 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: conference calls where you're the one on video and within 768 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: about five minutes of the meeting started, you're forgotten, right, 769 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 1: And it's not until someone goes to disconnect the call. 770 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: They're like, ah, Amantha, I didn't even know you were there. 771 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining, And You're like, I didn't join, I 772 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 1: didn't participate in any way at all and so one 773 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: dial in, we all dial in is a quality. Everyone 774 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: has some level playing field. And so what Trello has 775 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: been able to teach us is how do we evolve 776 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: our remote practices? And then one of the things that 777 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: we did was we combined our remote practices because once 778 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,400 Speaker 1: we adopted those, we had to make them work at 779 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: a scale of four and a half thousand people. Troto 780 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: when we acquired them was a couple of hundred, So like, 781 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: how do we scale those up? And then what we 782 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: did was between Trello and Atlasian is we published all 783 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: of our thought, leadership and practices on remote work on 784 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: our website free of charge to people. Right, so we've 785 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: got at Lastian dot com slash remote all of our 786 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: remote practices. You don't have to be in at Lastian customer, 787 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: it's just how do you work? What are the rituals 788 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: that work better for remote and not just how do 789 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: you work, but how do you hire? How do you recognize, 790 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: how do you performance manage, how do you engage, how 791 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: do you communicate? It's all the facets of work in 792 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: a remote format, and so that exists for any of 793 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: your listeners free of charge to play with amazing. 794 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 3: So Alassian dot com forward slash remote what it's interesting 795 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 3: that you talk about that concept from Trello. I remember 796 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 3: when when we were reading through some of the things 797 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 3: that Trello does at Inventing, we we also thought that 798 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 3: was genius and we completely changed how we did our 799 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 3: team meetings, which used to be very Melbourne centric and 800 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 3: the people in Sydney and our CEO is important Macquarie 801 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 3: would feel like a little bit left out because we'd 802 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 3: have all this banter in the team room in Melbourne. 803 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 3: But as soon as we change, it levels the playing field. 804 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 3: I love that, and I got that from Trello. What else, like, 805 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 3: what are some of your other favorite practices that you've 806 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 3: learned from Trello about remote working. 807 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 1: I think there's I mean, as well as the sort 808 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: of one dial in all dial in is how you 809 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: make sure you have those incidental conversations. You know, they 810 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: were masters that they set up a Trello room and 811 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: then chat rooms in Slack or whatever chat chats or 812 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: you're using. For the one called the water cooler, right, 813 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: there's one called vitamin D Vitamin E which they made 814 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: sure that everyone that was when if you've been out 815 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: and done something fun. You joined that room to have 816 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: a conversation with your colleagues about the fun thing that 817 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: you've done outside. They use Trello for sharing holidays, stories, activities, 818 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: what you did on the weekend, so you can tell 819 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: the story, you can put your pits above what you did, 820 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: and so it helps replicate that sort of in office 821 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: banter in a very level and very consumable way by 822 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: anyone in the world, and you can consume it asynchronously 823 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: so you don't all have to be online at the 824 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: same time. And then what they what they became masters of, 825 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: was how you become really effective working remote. But then 826 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 1: what are the times of high intensity or high touch 827 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: where you do want to be there in person. And 828 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: so Trello do a once a year Trello All All 829 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: Staff Kickoff, and wherever you are in the world, we 830 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 1: fly everyone into the same location. And that's a very heightened, 831 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: very sort of in person intimate event for planning, for strategy, 832 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: for building those relationships, because we believe that if you 833 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: build those relationships in person, they're a lot easier to 834 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: maintain online. And so there's a whole lot of facets 835 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: of how you do that and how you bring that 836 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: interpersonal stuff into play because it's very easy to be forgotten, right, 837 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: It's very easy to stay on task. But Trello certainly 838 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 1: helps us with that. And then the last one, and 839 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: we've adopted this pretty much across at Last Year now 840 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: is using Trello for our thirty sixty ninety day on 841 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: boarding plans, and it's great because it's got the visual 842 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: aspects of pictures. We can put sort of quizzes in 843 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: there and you can actually build your own adventure. And 844 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: so the way we build on boarding plans is your 845 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: first thirty days is quite prescribed. They thirty one to 846 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: sixty is a little bit more sort of you get 847 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: to choose and day sixty to ninety is actually almost 848 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: left blank. And it's left blank, but what it says 849 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: in there on the cards is what did you learn 850 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: from the first sixty days that you want to do 851 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: in your last thirty before you become a true at 852 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: Lascion or a trellis right, and it's about saying to 853 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: the person, we expect you to own your career. We're 854 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: going to give you a huge amount of help to 855 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: get started, but very early on in your career, we 856 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: want you to own this like it's a joint effort, 857 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: and again both Trello from a cultural mindset. I mean, 858 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 1: the tools help us do this, but you've heard me say, 859 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: before a fall with the tools still a fall. You've 860 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: just made them faster. Trello's an amazing tool, But it 861 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: was the cultural aspects of rituals, the habits that I 862 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: think were the differentiator. 863 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 2: Is there? 864 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 3: I think induction is interesting. I feel like that is 865 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 3: one of the big challenges in remote working. How do 866 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,439 Speaker 3: you really induct someone into an organization when you can't 867 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 3: even go into the office, you can't be face to 868 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 3: face with anyone. How are you doing that at the moment? 869 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 3: Like above and beyond that not ninety day trillo sort 870 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 3: of board plan if you like, Like, how are you 871 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 3: immersing someone into the culture and making them feel kind 872 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 3: of connected and included and so forth. 873 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a lot harder, and I wouldn't 874 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: say we're perfect at out. I think we're learning on 875 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: the fly, which which we kind of have no choice on. 876 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: We've we've hired and started over six hundred people, you know, 877 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: since COVID hit, we've not stopped our hiring, right, So 878 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: we're very fortunate, right, we're an organization whereby our tools 879 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: become even more valuable in a distributed world. You know, 880 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: we've got long term plans that we're building for We're 881 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: not building for this year. We're building a fifty year 882 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,760 Speaker 1: business and so we're very fortunate that we can continue 883 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: to grow an expand across the world. And so we 884 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: didn't have an answer, right We've hired pockets of people 885 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: in a remote fashion, but not one hundred percent, and 886 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: so our talent team, learning and development, our workplace experienced 887 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: team pivoted to say, how do we build an experience 888 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: that isn't in person? And we've just had a hold 889 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: of hacks and experiments, some that I think are working spectaclely. Well, 890 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 1: I'm sure some that are probably struggling in the background 891 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: because they are experiment and that's the nature of them. 892 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: But then we've also been using videos to record narrative stories, 893 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: some of the folklore to share with these people, and 894 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: also making sure that when we do have new starters, 895 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: we still connect them with other people that are new starters, 896 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: so it's like, hey, this is your cohort. Now they're 897 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: not your peers that are in the same team as you, 898 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: but they all started on the same day, So how 899 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: can you form a cohort together of shared experiences and 900 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: then making sure we have regular touch points. You know, 901 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: how are you going? What can we do to help 902 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,280 Speaker 1: with is the example you go before, rate your personal 903 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: life out of ten, rate your life out of ten, Like, 904 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: how can we help you on board? Because it is 905 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,319 Speaker 1: just harder and different. We've got to accept that. But 906 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: I think we're trying a whold of the stuff to 907 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: negate where we can, and then we're just being really 908 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: honest with people an example of our honesty. I think 909 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: one of the challenges right now in this world. People 910 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: keep on talking about change fatigue, and I don't know 911 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: about you, but I don't believe in change fatigue. I 912 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: think humans are very good at change. I actually think 913 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: the thing we're struggling with now is uncertainty, right. It's 914 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: just not knowing what the hell's going on and what's 915 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: going to happen next, and that uncertainty I think causes anxiety. 916 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: So there was a whole lot of discussion and debate 917 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 1: about when our different offices around the world would open, 918 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: what that would look like you could go back and 919 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: when a whole load of stuff and so you know, 920 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,400 Speaker 1: Mike and Scott, as our founders, came out in one 921 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,879 Speaker 1: of our town halls the other week and said, as 922 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,919 Speaker 1: and when our office is open around the world, if 923 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,720 Speaker 1: you feel the desire to go back to an office, 924 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,280 Speaker 1: you'll be more than welcome. However, we will not expect 925 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,280 Speaker 1: anyone physically to be in an elasting office before one January. 926 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: And you could almost hear the organization have a massive 927 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: exhalation of breath and go ohh okay. So if it's 928 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: one January, I'll probably get a proper desk in a proper, 929 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: proper seat and maybe a monitor. And if it's one January, 930 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: I probably should invest in attending those remote seminars that 931 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: help me learn to be a better manager. And it's 932 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: one January, then I'm going to find a regime of 933 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: how I do exercise. At Hobard Mental Life, you suddenly 934 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: make better long term plans. And so one January is 935 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: actually a fictitious milestone, right. It just gave people certainty 936 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: to make some plans and some commitments. And I think 937 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: one of the things as leaders, as community members and 938 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: members of society in the business world, we just have 939 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: to accept there is inherent uncertainty right now, but find 940 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: those areas where we can give people certainty so we 941 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: can start to make plans together. And then when we 942 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: do that, share back, share what works and share what doesn't. 943 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: And I think if there's any good that can come 944 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: from COVID, it's the fact that we can share laterally 945 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 1: across different businesses and all help each other. And I 946 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: think in many sectors that's been sadly lacking in the 947 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: last few years. 948 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 3: I think that that is such great advice around something 949 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 3: very very important and powerful that LITTIS can do is 950 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 3: to provide at least some certainty in thinking about the 951 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,879 Speaker 3: areas where they can do that. I just think that 952 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 3: is that is so useful. And I guess speaking of uncertainty, 953 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 3: your job, like part of your job is trying to 954 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 3: think about the future and the future of work. And 955 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 3: I want to know what are some of the things 956 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 3: that you're coming across, and maybe what are some of 957 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 3: the let's say, educated guesses of what you see in 958 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,839 Speaker 3: store for the world of work over like the next 959 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 3: sort of one to two years educate. 960 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 2: I guess this is a few things. 961 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: One, you know, I think we need to get a 962 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: whole lot better at thinking about growth, learning development. You know, 963 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: lifelong learning and the ability to adapt is going to 964 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: become a first class citizen. I think if we just 965 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: accept that, we also then need to accept that we 966 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 1: need as a as a business community to get a 967 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: lot better at reskilling and retraining our people. If you 968 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: looked last year, Jeff Bezos and Amazon put aside to 969 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 1: shi have a billion dollars to retrain Amazon employees that 970 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: they themselves were going to displace through automation technology and robotics. 971 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: But it's not unique to Amazon. I think that's the 972 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: same for a hold of businesses. I think that's just 973 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: going to be amplified and accelerated by COVID. Right as 974 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: we go cool, what can technology do? Because technology is 975 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,280 Speaker 1: a lot more reliable than people. Technology doesn't need to isolate, 976 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: doesn't need breaks, doesn't have sick leave. You know, it's 977 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: almost immune to pandemics. They still get bugs, but they're 978 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: different bugs. And so I think as that starts to rage, 979 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: it creates a scenario of lifelong learning and reskilling, and 980 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: I think my concern or my hope there is that 981 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: needs to be done in an equitable fashion. Right Otherwise, 982 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: the highly educated and the ones that get access to 983 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: education get to evolve and get access to lifelong learning 984 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: and get accelerated amplified salaries. And those that don't that 985 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: a class is more manual don't get access to that 986 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: and get displaced. Right, so the displacement could be unfair. 987 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: The second part of that, which is a huge thing 988 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: for me and I know a hard topic for you 989 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: as well, is as sort of technology starts to take 990 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:52,680 Speaker 1: away the mundane tasks, complex work increases for humans. You know, 991 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: in Western economies we've not reduced working hours in the 992 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 1: last twenty years, we've increased them. So if we've got 993 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: people working at home in isolation, we lose the connection 994 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: and we're increasing the cognitive load on them. That doesn't 995 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: sound like a good recipe for me, right, So how 996 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: do we understand cognitive load on people? And how do 997 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: we enable them to have meaning and wellness? And how 998 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,439 Speaker 1: does mental health get the same status as physical health? 999 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: How can we make it normal for someone to talk 1000 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: about mental health just like they talk about joining a 1001 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: gym or going for a run. How can we make 1002 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: mental health the same topic of prevention rather than cure? 1003 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,239 Speaker 1: And then that the final one for me is a 1004 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 1: topic that I don't have the answer to, but it's 1005 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: one that I'm fascinated by. I think the economy as 1006 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 1: a whole and business as a whole, has this extremely 1007 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: weird fetish with the word productivity. I think it's a 1008 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,840 Speaker 1: word that was created in a time of factories and 1009 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: people working with their hands, where physical proximity to work 1010 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: was important, where people clocked in and clocked out, where 1011 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: ours equaled productivity. And now I think we're in an 1012 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: economy where ideas and creativity and curiosity creates value and 1013 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,799 Speaker 1: outcomes and opportunities for business and innovation, and I don't 1014 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: think you can measure that with productivity. And so what 1015 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: I'm hoping is is that we found a way for 1016 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: a more rounded view of the world around team effectiveness, 1017 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:13,280 Speaker 1: around impact both social and financial and physical impact around 1018 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: the environment. And so instead of just talking profit and productivity, 1019 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: we start talking planet and purpose and people, and we 1020 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: start talking about effectiveness and impact and outcomes, because that's 1021 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: a world that I would really enjoy living in and thriving. 1022 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,960 Speaker 1: And if anything, let's not let's not let a crisis 1023 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: go to waste. Let's use COVID as a platform to 1024 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:35,680 Speaker 1: go you know what, I don't want to go back 1025 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: to the old normal. But we get to designe we 1026 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,760 Speaker 1: get to design our future. And so, as a word futurist, 1027 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 1: one of the things I keep on reminding people is 1028 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,719 Speaker 1: that our future is not pre written, it's not predetermined, 1029 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: that it's not waiting for us to arrive. 1030 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 2: You know. 1031 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: It's the decisions or the indecision we have every day 1032 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: and the actions that we do and don't take that 1033 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: create our future. So let's do it on purpose, and 1034 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,240 Speaker 1: let's do it in collaboration to create a better future, 1035 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: because I don't want to do it by accident. And 1036 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: I think if we can get effectiveness and purpose and 1037 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 1: impact as part of that conversation, we'll create a far 1038 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: more equitable world that we all like living in. 1039 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 2: Ah. 1040 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:14,439 Speaker 3: That's awesome, Such wise words, dom and I think such 1041 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 3: a great note to end on. Like my very final 1042 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 3: question is where can people consume more of what you're 1043 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,960 Speaker 3: doing and also what at Lassian is putting out into 1044 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,200 Speaker 3: the world, because you guys are so generous with what 1045 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:28,280 Speaker 3: you give away for free. 1046 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean, let's be honest. And Mantha, if anyone's still 1047 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: listening at this point, and once more they are, they 1048 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: are brutal. I mean that is that is a minority 1049 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: of the population we're talking about that. If anyone wants 1050 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 1: to find out more, I'm at Don Price on LinkedIn 1051 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 1: and Twitter. I share readily a whole of stuff, videos, podcasts, 1052 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,239 Speaker 1: thought leadership from a Lassian. We also have for anyone 1053 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,240 Speaker 1: who's focusing on teamwork right now, we have the Lassian 1054 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,720 Speaker 1: Team Playbook, so you just do it. Lassian Team Playbook. 1055 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,120 Speaker 1: Dot com all of our ways of working around teamwork 1056 00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,280 Speaker 1: and how you set up teams and get teams to thrive. 1057 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,400 Speaker 1: There that's all free as well. It's product agnostics, you 1058 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,520 Speaker 1: don't have to be a customer. And then at last 1059 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,160 Speaker 1: in dot com slash remote for all our stuff around 1060 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: remote work. I think they're the things that anyone right 1061 00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:15,440 Speaker 1: now who wants highly accessible, tactical tactical stuff that they 1062 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 1: can use straight away, those three things will give you that, 1063 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 1: and they're all free of charge. Because knowledge is not power, 1064 00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:22,879 Speaker 1: it's the application of polictive power. 1065 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 3: That's awesome. Dom As always, it has been such a 1066 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 3: pleasure chatting. Thank you so much for your time today. 1067 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 2: Thank you for your time as well. A Mantha always 1068 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 2: good chatting. 1069 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 3: Hello there. That is it for today's show. I hope 1070 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,720 Speaker 3: you liked my chat with Dom. If you know someone 1071 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,759 Speaker 3: else that might benefit from this chat, why not share 1072 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 3: this episode with them through the podcast app that you 1073 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 3: have listened to this podcast through. And if you're enjoying 1074 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 3: How I Work, I would love it if you could 1075 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,640 Speaker 3: take just a few seconds to leave a review, maybe 1076 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,879 Speaker 3: a star rating, or a few words wherever you listen 1077 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,359 Speaker 3: to this podcast. It's so awesome getting listener feedback. It 1078 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,719 Speaker 3: really does bring a smile to my day. So thank 1079 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,320 Speaker 3: you if you've done that, and thank you if you 1080 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,360 Speaker 3: plan to do that today. So that's it for today 1081 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:06,719 Speaker 3: and I'll see you next time.