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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers.

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Speaker 1: Mew Daniel Principi. He's a boys advocate, he's an author, speaker,

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Speaker 1: and he is an Australian of the Year nominee. He's

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Speaker 1: also an ambassador for Consent Can't Wait, and he joins

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Speaker 1: me on the podcast. We've been having a few conversations

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Speaker 1: about consent lately. It's that time of the year with

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Speaker 1: schoolies and kids leaving year twelve and getting on with

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Speaker 1: their lives, but also the federal government is really pushing

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Speaker 1: this extremely hard right now. I'm an ambassador for Consent

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Speaker 1: Can't Wait. So as Chanel Contos, we had her on

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Speaker 1: the podcast last week and like I said, a stragan

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Speaker 1: of the Year nominee Daniel Prince Paye joins me today,

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Speaker 1: austrain of the Year nominee. Look at you go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels a bit. I don't even know how

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Speaker 2: to respond to that. You've lost me for words. As

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Speaker 2: someone who yaps every days, I'm done. I've got nothing

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Speaker 2: to say. All the feelings and IMPOSSI the syndrome double

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Speaker 2: double because I'm a first boy who's been acknowledging New

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Speaker 2: South Wales. So yeah, there's there's multiple layers of impulseter

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Speaker 2: syndrome happening here.

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Speaker 3: Let's leave it at that.

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Speaker 1: I love the way I've started a podcast and my

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Speaker 1: guest has already stopped talking. It's a I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that's a good start or a bad start.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Then let's talk about your area of specialty. Last week,

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Sanel Kontos was fairly general about consent.

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Speaker 1: We did talk about adolescents a little bit. But your

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Speaker 1: area of specialty is tween and teen boys. This is

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Speaker 1: an area that you have become literally recognized as a

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Speaker 1: national expert and treasure in I have a double barreled question,

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Speaker 1: a terrible interview technique, but a double barreled question to

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Speaker 1: start when it comes to our kids in consent. What's

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Speaker 1: working and what's not. Let's turn it into two single questions.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with the We'll start with the good and

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Speaker 1: then we'll go to the bad. What is working when

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Speaker 1: it comes to consent in this country right now with

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Speaker 1: our tween and teen boys.

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Speaker 2: I think they're very open to the conversation. I don't

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Speaker 2: think they need to be convinced that this is important.

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Speaker 2: I don't get roles. I don't get oh, here we

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Speaker 2: go again. I get yeah, we get it. This is

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Speaker 2: important for lots of different reasons, maybe for self preservation

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Speaker 2: or maybe because someone's like I want to protect others,

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Speaker 2: I want to make sure I'm safe, or other people

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Speaker 2: have pleasurable sexual experiences that I'm involved in, And so

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Speaker 2: I see a great appetite.

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Speaker 3: I don't think the conversation's exhausted. I think it's.

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Speaker 2: Obviously the way we go about it, and how we

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Speaker 2: invite young people to have these conversations and again with them,

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Speaker 2: not at them. And so I'm always enthused by boys

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Speaker 2: wanting to have these conversations and doing that around some

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Speaker 2: of the cultural messaging they get about what is it

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Speaker 2: to be a man? How do we understand power entitlement?

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Speaker 2: How do we understand our roles in relationships? You know,

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Speaker 2: should should we be the strong provider? Can we have needs?

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Speaker 3: Are we had to be loving? You know? All these

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Speaker 3: sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: So it's not just purely tied up in consent where

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Speaker 2: we're trying to tackle it by thinking about a lot

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Speaker 2: of the ideas we have about maculinity relationships, and sexuality,

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Speaker 2: and I see the boys loving it. I think Australia

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Speaker 2: does pretty well and having these conversations and my biases.

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Speaker 2: I'm obviously partnering with schools and communities that are very

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Speaker 2: for and open to these conversations, so I haven't seen

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Speaker 2: it as hard work in my experience, and even seeing

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Speaker 2: parents realizing that these are conversations to be had and

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Speaker 2: that we need to educate that we can't bury our

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Speaker 2: head in the sand. So I don't think we're there.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we're as bad as some people like

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Speaker 2: to say we are.

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Speaker 3: Of course we need to.

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Speaker 2: Continue to improve and grow and get that are having

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Speaker 2: these conversations and normalizing it. But I actually think we're

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Speaker 2: doing a decent job. Of course we can do a

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Speaker 2: better job. And yeah, my experience with boys is they're

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Speaker 2: analyzing this in brilliant ways. I think the opportunity is

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Speaker 2: to answer your second question is like maybe more to

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Speaker 2: do with EQ, more to do with emotional literacy and

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Speaker 2: being in tune with others and how we actually navigate consent,

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Speaker 2: not so much as transactional and legalistically, but actually like

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Speaker 2: I really care about this other person and not just

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Speaker 2: in the realms of sex and romance.

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Speaker 3: But just like I'm interested in.

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Speaker 2: Your preferences, your design, what you want, what you need,

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Speaker 2: and that's just fundamental to who I am and how

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Speaker 2: I want to show up as a person. So for me,

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Speaker 2: I think where I think we need to improve the

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Speaker 2: conversation is yes to consent, but there's more through the conversation,

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Speaker 2: and there's other skills to be learned and that make

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Speaker 2: for a healthy relationship, romantic or otherwise.

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Speaker 1: The federal government's jumped in and said we need to

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Speaker 1: spend millions of dollars on a campaign because consent can't wait.

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Speaker 1: Clearly they're identifying that there are some significant issues here.

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Speaker 1: You paint a generally optimistic and quite rosy picture for

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Speaker 1: which I'm grateful and I think that we need that,

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Speaker 1: especially since there are so many people who are down

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Speaker 1: on our boys. But if we just look at a

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Speaker 1: handful of stats, Australia Institute of Health and Welfare research

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Speaker 1: shows that when it comes to sexual assault, ninety seven

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Speaker 1: percent of sexual assault in this country is male offenders

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Speaker 1: and females are the ones who are the victims here.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to the strange child male treatment study,

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Speaker 1: Child on child sexual abuse is what's rising, and it's

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Speaker 1: adolescent boys who are the ones who are most likely

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Speaker 1: to offend. So there is clearly a consent conversation that

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Speaker 1: needs to be happening. Why do you think that these

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Speaker 1: awful statistics exist in spite of the like I said,

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Speaker 1: the optimistic picture that you paint.

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Speaker 2: I guess my optimistic picture is I think we are

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Speaker 2: doing the consent conversation well, but I don't actually think

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Speaker 2: that will tackle those staff because as we know, fifteen

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Speaker 2: to nineteen year old boys are the highest perpetrators of

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Speaker 2: sex offenses in Australia. It's an awful stat I hate

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Speaker 2: quoting it, but I do it every PD in every

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Speaker 2: parent community event, because that's what we're navigating now. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's because we haven't had great consent conversations.

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Speaker 2: I think that's because we haven't tackled some of the

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Speaker 2: other elephants in the room, some of that being children

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Speaker 2: and trauma. Some of that is young children's exposure to pornography,

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Speaker 2: and we've seen recently on the ABC Child on Child

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Speaker 2: increased rates of sexual assault and most of the academics

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Speaker 2: are putting this down to pornography and pornography exposure and

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Speaker 2: young kids acting that out. So I was really pleased

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Speaker 2: that the consent Can't Wait, can Pain was allowing me

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Speaker 2: to talk about pornography, to gently address the elephant in

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Speaker 2: the room and why we needed to talk about it

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Speaker 2: and talk without young people. So I think consent in

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Speaker 2: schools is going well. I think where this campaign is

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Speaker 2: pointing us and why we need to do better to

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Speaker 2: address those stats is this was about parents talking to

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Speaker 2: other parents and parents talking to their own young people

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Speaker 2: about these conversations. So making that distinction between who's having

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Speaker 2: these conversations, because yeah, I'm in a world and maybe

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Speaker 2: it is a bubble where schools and I are having

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Speaker 2: great conversations about this, and I see the enthusiasm of

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Speaker 2: young people. So the challenge is that we would normalize

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Speaker 2: this and normalize talking about this well before our young

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Speaker 2: person is even interested in romance and dating and sexual

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Speaker 2: experiences and exploration.

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Speaker 1: DN. If I'm a parent of between or eighteen boy,

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Speaker 1: what don't I know that I don't know what I

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Speaker 1: mean by this is where are the gaps? Where are

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Speaker 1: my blind spots? As a parent of an adolescent boy?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think and I get it, like your son

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Speaker 2: is probably an out a precious, lovely human who you

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Speaker 2: get to see the best of it. Perhaps you've also

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Speaker 2: seen the challenging side too, because.

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Speaker 3: You're the parent.

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Speaker 2: You're in there in the trenches day in day out.

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Speaker 2: I think the information gap that we do need to close,

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Speaker 2: and I say this to parents often, is how many

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Speaker 2: parents think they're young person has been exposed to harmful content,

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Speaker 2: and that could be violence, it could be racist, but

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Speaker 2: most of the time it's pornographic. And how many parents

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Speaker 2: realize that that is also that young they're young person.

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Speaker 2: So there's a bit of a gap between my child

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Speaker 2: versus the realities of how many young people have been

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Speaker 2: exposed and the average agent exposure, as we know, is

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Speaker 2: seen concernedly as like thirteen, but we know it's dropping

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Speaker 2: and there's more research suggesting it's more likely eleven for boys,

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Speaker 2: and so I think acknowledging that and what I really

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Speaker 2: want to jump in and say is that your young

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Speaker 2: person is not bad, wrong, evil, in trouble, awful because

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Speaker 2: they have been exposed to any kinds of harmful content online.

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Speaker 2: As some people may know, I've told my story in

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Speaker 2: mainstream media. I was eleven years old when I was

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Speaker 2: exposed to porn I wasn't a bad kid. I was

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Speaker 2: shown it by someone else, which is the most common

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Speaker 2: way young kids are exposed. Or it's pop ups on

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Speaker 2: their online spaces, or thirdly, they're searching out of curiosity.

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Speaker 2: None of those reasons, and whatever the reason is caused

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Speaker 2: to punish them, to shame them. This is just the

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Speaker 2: world they're in and we just have to equip them

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Speaker 2: for it, to know that they can come to mom, dad, trusted.

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Speaker 3: Caregiver in if this does happen.

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Speaker 2: But the point I want to make is I was eleven,

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Speaker 2: I've been exposed to pornography, which scientists and psychologists call

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Speaker 2: a supernormal stimulus. That's just spiked my curiosity, my dopamine feelings,

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Speaker 2: both shame and awkwardness. And am I in trouble with

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Speaker 2: also curiosity? And oh that felt nice because I had

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Speaker 2: a nice dopamine rush. But the point I want to

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Speaker 2: make is it started to say something to me, teach

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Speaker 2: me something. And that's the question I always want to ask,

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Speaker 2: is what is it shaping us to believe about men,

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Speaker 2: women's sex power, consent, pleasure bodies. Are we learning healthy

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Speaker 2: things or harmful things? Especially for young people? And the

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Speaker 2: other social conditioning they may actually receive about you know,

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Speaker 2: what it is to be a man. And the stat

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Speaker 2: is that for boys are usually exposed three years before

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Speaker 2: their first kiss, and for girls it's two years before

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Speaker 2: their first kiss, which is a lot of time to

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Speaker 2: have your ideas about something that most parents of you

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Speaker 2: are significant, Some parents of you are sacred to be

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Speaker 2: shaped by this external force, this one hundred billion dollar

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Speaker 2: a year industry that makes up thirty to fifty percent

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Speaker 2: of the Internet. So we have to just talk about it.

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Speaker 2: And that's what I want parents to know. This isn't

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Speaker 2: this isn't something that we can avoid. We just have

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Speaker 2: to talk about it in the most gentle media, literacy

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Speaker 2: friendly way where we're critically and analyzing the messages young

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Speaker 2: people and boys are getting.

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Speaker 1: Dan, you are aware I've spoken with you about this,

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Speaker 1: and you will probably be featuring in the new book

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Speaker 1: that I'm writing about Raising Boys. I interviewed a journalist

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Speaker 1: just a couple of weeks ago, and I was brown,

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Speaker 1: and she described how her daughter was approached online for

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Speaker 1: explicit content. She was only thirteen or fourteen years of

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Speaker 1: age or something like that, and when her daughter came

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Speaker 1: out to her in the living room and said, Mum,

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Speaker 1: this has just happened, and Kate got involved. She discovered

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Speaker 1: by following the links that the person who was making

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Speaker 1: the request, this non consensual request for explicit content from

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Speaker 1: a thirteen year old girl, was a little, redheaded, freckled

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old boy who literally looked like he could

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Speaker 1: be the boy next door. And at that point, she said,

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Speaker 1: she had this eye opening awareness, this awakening that the

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Speaker 1: bad guys quote unquote, the bad guys on the internet

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Speaker 1: aren't these fifty sixty seven year old ced pedophiles in

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Speaker 1: their basements. They are just the boy next door. And

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Speaker 1: she also then softened it, as you did, and suggested,

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Speaker 1: maybe they're not bad guys so much as their young

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Speaker 1: men who are going through a range of very big

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Speaker 1: learning moments, and they need to have these conversations so

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Speaker 1: that little girls like hers aren't getting these kinds of requests.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that you've heard stories like that countless times

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Speaker 1: and probably far worse in the work that you do.

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Speaker 1: I would expect that that would be the case if

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Speaker 1: I'm a parent and I'm hearing a story like that,

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Speaker 1: and i have a daughter I'm just wanting to protect,

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Speaker 1: or I have a son who I want to make

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Speaker 1: sure doesn't become a perpetrator of an act like this.

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Speaker 1: What are my starting points in a consent can't wait context?

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Speaker 1: What are starting points for protecting my kids from being

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Speaker 1: either victims or perpetrators?

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Speaker 2: Such an important question, and I think we have to

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Speaker 2: start by saying that you're not alone in this. I

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Speaker 2: don't want a parent sitting there thinking, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: I must have just been such a monstrous or I've failed.

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Speaker 2: It's not about that the culture makes this nearly impossible

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Speaker 2: to avoid altogether, because young people are being exposed to

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Speaker 2: this content. So I just want the parent not to

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Speaker 2: feel a sense of negative emotion or guilt around this,

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Speaker 2: because sadly, this is the world that we're navigating. Of course,

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Speaker 2: we have to do our utmost to keep our young

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Speaker 2: people safe. And it's just not a reflection on you,

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Speaker 2: and it's not a reflection on your child, like they

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Speaker 2: have been exposed to something that has shaped them and

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Speaker 2: not normalized things that just aren't normal and aren't healthy

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Speaker 2: and aren't safe. From there, I think, yeah, we do

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Speaker 2: have to talk to our young person about how they

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Speaker 2: got this idea or where they learned this from. I

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Speaker 2: think it's so important that we're having preventative conversations as

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Speaker 2: well as the you know, proactive in response to things

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Speaker 2: to say to our young person, like if anything makes

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Speaker 2: you feel uncomfortable online, if you see anything, or someone

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Speaker 2: tells us that we've got to keep a secret, or

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Speaker 2: they're pressuring it, because the biggest worry is that young

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Speaker 2: people are so at risk to being kind of coerced

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Speaker 2: into thinking that they're going to be punished, that their

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Speaker 2: parents aren't going to love them or support them anymore.

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Speaker 2: They're kind of manipulated into thinking that they're alone if

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Speaker 2: this happens, or if they do something unquote naughty online,

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Speaker 2: And I think it's just so important that we just

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Speaker 2: as much as possible overdose them if I'm allowed to

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Speaker 2: say that on the positive message that you're never going

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Speaker 2: to be in trouble, because young people tell me often

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Speaker 2: that they think they're going to burden their parents or

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Speaker 2: they're going to overreact, and so they don't want to

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Speaker 2: disturb them or create drama for the family. And so

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Speaker 2: as much as possible, we have to make sure that

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Speaker 2: they know that they can come to us and have

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Speaker 2: those conversations about what is safe, what is respectful, what

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Speaker 2: maybe makes them feel uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Dan, there's a three word statement that I make a

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Speaker 1: big deal about on the podcast in my presentations, and

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Speaker 1: it's the three words that parents need their kids to

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Speaker 1: hear from them more than any other. And it's not

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Speaker 1: I love you, it's the three that come next. No

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Speaker 1: matter what the way that I phrase that is, anything

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Speaker 1: that happens, I promise you that my love for you

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Speaker 1: is bigger than that thing you do, the wrong thing online.

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Speaker 1: My love for you is bigger than that you end

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Speaker 1: up in some trouble because of X, Y or Z.

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Speaker 1: My love for you is bigger than and that thing.

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Speaker 1: You can always come to me. And I just I

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Speaker 1: love the articulate way in which you've described that, at

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Speaker 1: times almost art I have one more question, no two

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Speaker 1: more questions for you, because I can never just do

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Speaker 1: one more. I want to go right back to the

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Speaker 1: start of the pod. As we were talking about how

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Speaker 1: we can support our children through this, you began to

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Speaker 1: speak about parents of young men and the kinds of

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Speaker 1: attributes and characteristics that it's just incumbent on us to

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Speaker 1: instill in them so that they can become strong men

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Speaker 1: of the future. You spoke so well about it, and

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Speaker 1: I flagged it as you were saying it. We've got

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Speaker 1: to come back to it. Can you describe for me

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Speaker 1: what your picture is of a young man who is

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Speaker 1: getting it right in a world that, as you highlighted,

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Speaker 1: is giving them so many messages that are not in

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Speaker 1: their best interests.

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Speaker 2: I tell boys every day, your parents, your school, and

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Speaker 2: I aren't expecting you to be perfect. You want to

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Speaker 2: champion you to be the type of young men where

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Speaker 2: people feel safe and loved and respected by you, where

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Speaker 2: people feel that they can be themselves, and that you

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Speaker 2: use your gifts, your talents, your energy to contribute to others'

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Speaker 2: lives and relationships in such a life giving way. And

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Speaker 2: I feel like that is out one of our absolute,

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Speaker 2: utmost urgent duties right now is to really tell boys

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Speaker 2: like that we champion them, that we see such a

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Speaker 2: place for them and what they have to offer the world,

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Speaker 2: and to give them that vision. And yeah, I get

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Speaker 2: to see it. Like I say this every day in

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Speaker 2: every post. It doesn't matter where I am, I know

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Speaker 2: I'm going to see incredible insights and empathy from young boys.

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Speaker 2: It's helping them have the courage to live that out

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Speaker 2: because I think some of the social norms that punish

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Speaker 2: those better traits make it hard for boys to live

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Speaker 2: out of that place. So, for example, ninety nine times

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Speaker 2: out of one hundred workshops, boys will never bring up

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Speaker 2: the word love or loving in terms of what is

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Speaker 2: it to be a good man? Why is that not

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Speaker 2: because they don't believe it. It's because they tell me,

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Speaker 2: and usually the younger pops certainly will that it's seen

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Speaker 2: as feminine or weak. So we clearly as a society

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Speaker 2: have to do more to say to boys, know you'rfully

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Speaker 2: human too. You get to love and be loving and

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Speaker 2: be loved like that is a part of who you

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Speaker 2: are and your contribution to the world. And so that,

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Speaker 2: for me, is that part of the broader task of

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Speaker 2: making sure we encourage and nurture the soft skills and

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Speaker 2: eq so they can get consent by it because you

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Speaker 2: can learn it intellectually, but it's actually to have the

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Speaker 2: heart muscles.

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Speaker 3: And the courage to be like, yeah, I want to.

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Speaker 2: Be a man who's loving and respectful and safe and

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Speaker 2: for people to experience.

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Speaker 3: Mere like that.

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Speaker 1: Dan, here's what's perfect about that response. Much of what

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Speaker 1: we discuss when it comes to consent is we talk

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Speaker 1: about the legalistic view. We talk about the actionable, practical

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Speaker 1: elements of this. Is what consent is. It's where you

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Speaker 1: want something, they want something. You both want the same thing.

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Speaker 1: Therefore it's okay to do it. You're going to be

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Speaker 1: excited about the fact that it happened tomorrow as you

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Speaker 1: reflect on it. That's consent, right, That's the stuff that

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Speaker 1: we hear all the time. What you're doing is you're

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Speaker 1: couching a consent conversation in a broader conversation or discussion

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Speaker 1: about character and the development of a whole person. I

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Speaker 1: just think you're an incredible advocate for boys. You're so articulate,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really grateful to know you. I'm getting a

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Speaker 1: little bit weepy just thinking about the impact that you

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Speaker 1: have as you travel around this country and you do

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Speaker 1: talk after talk after talk, and I know sometimes you

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Speaker 1: stand in the halls as I do at schools, and

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Speaker 1: there's a bunch of kids who are sitting in that

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Speaker 1: back corner rolling their eyes, going, Oh, who's this guy

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Speaker 1: at the front that reckons he knows something, don't care,

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Speaker 1: don't want to know. I think you stand tall, I

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Speaker 1: think you articulate so so well, and anyone who has

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Speaker 1: listening to this podcast I believe will be blown away

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Speaker 1: by what you've had to say, Dan Principei, What a

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Speaker 1: privilege to have you on the Happy Families podcast. I

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Speaker 1: think you're doing great work. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you justin thank you for the privilege and the

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Speaker 2: kind words and more of this and more of hearing

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Speaker 2: dads talking about what you just shared as well. So

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Speaker 2: thank you.

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Speaker 1: Oh you know what, I'm supposed to ask another question

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Speaker 1: as well? Where about the resources for people who want

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Speaker 1: to know more about teaching their kids? Consent? That's the

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Speaker 1: whole purse of this conversation. We should talk about that

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Speaker 1: in twenty seconds.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I've had to consent. Can't wait? Dot gov,

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Speaker 2: dot AU. And obviously what we're going to get there

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Speaker 2: is conversation starters between parents, but also how to have

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Speaker 2: them with our young people again, normalizing it with other parents,

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Speaker 2: what's working for them, what to help them break through

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Speaker 2: in these conversations, and then age appropriate ways to have

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Speaker 2: these conversations with all age children. And so please check

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Speaker 2: them out. I vouch for them. There's no milkshake ads

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Speaker 2: to be found here. This is quality scientific research from

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Speaker 2: experts who have actually done the work of talking to

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Speaker 2: people of all ages about these topics.

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Speaker 1: Dan Prince Pai Boys Advocate, author, speaker and Australian of

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Speaker 1: the Ye nominee and Ambassador for Consent can't wait. Details

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Speaker 1: at Consent dot gov dot you. We will link to

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Speaker 1: them in the show notes. And if you're a school

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Speaker 1: teacher or a head of well being, or a deputy

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Speaker 1: principal or a I don't know somebody who makes decisions

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Speaker 1: about what happens in schools, look him up. Dan Principei.

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Speaker 1: What's your website, Dan.

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Speaker 2: It's just Daniel Principe dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: Great to have you long, Dan. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. If you

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Speaker 1: would like more information, we will link to everything about

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Speaker 1: Dan and also about the Consent Conversation by the federal

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Speaker 1: government's website Consent dot gov dot you in the show notes. Hey, look,

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Speaker 1: so many important conversations here. I hope it sparks something

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Speaker 1: for you, and I hope that it creates something that

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Speaker 1: leads to a healthy conversation in your home with your kids.

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Speaker 1: Check out the website for more. Tomorrow on the pod,

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Speaker 1: we're getting into This week in parenting, teens are getting

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Speaker 1: nick sick with Zim's and a whole lot more. For

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Speaker 1: more information about making your family happier, you'll find it

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Speaker 1: at happyfamilies dot com dot au.