1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: to the Daily OS. It's Wednesday, the eleventh of September. 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: I'm emma, I'm Zara. The Federal Government will introduce new 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: laws to enforce minimum age requirements for social media users. Now. 6 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: This announcement came just days after the South Australian government 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: announced its own plans to move forward with a ban 8 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: on social media use for under fourteen year olds. But 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot we still don't know about the Federal 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: government's proposal. How will it be rolled out and regulated, 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: and above all will it work. In today's deep dive, 12 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: we'll take you through what we know about this announcement 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: and we'll speak to an expert to find out if 14 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: you can actually stop teens from using social media. But first, Zara, 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: what's making headlines. 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: The bus driver responsible for a crash that killed ten 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,399 Speaker 2: people and injured twenty five others in the Hunter Valley 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: last year is expected to be sentenced today. It comes 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 2: after survivors and friends and families of the victims delivered 20 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: victim impact statements in court this week. Crash survivor Drew 21 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 2: El Mussali said, and I quote your honor, can you 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: please ask the defendant to look at me and at 23 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: least show some respect. The fifty nine year old bus driver, 24 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 2: Brett Andrew Button, pleaded guilty earlier this year to a 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 2: number of driving related offenses, including dangerous driving occasioning death. 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: North Korean leader Kim Jong un has announced the country 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: will exponentially increase its number of nuclear weapons. According to 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: state media, Kim said that North Korea must better prepare 29 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: its nuclear capability and its quote readiness to use it 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: properly at any given time in ensuring the security rights 31 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: of the state. The comments were included in a speech 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: delivered by Kim on the anniversary of the country's founding 33 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: Earlier this week. 34 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: A legal trial involving the Murdoch family will begin in 35 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: a court in the US state of Nevada today. The 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 2: trial centers on the future of ninety three year old 37 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: Rupert Murdoch's media empire. Earlier this year, The New York 38 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: Times reported Rupert wanted to update his will to ensure 39 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: eldest son Lachlan, controls the family business after he dies. 40 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 2: Three of Rupert's other children, Elizabeth James and prudence are 41 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: now trying to challenge their father's plans to name Lachlan 42 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: as his successor. 43 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: And today's good news, the recipient of the world's first 44 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: whole eye transplant has shown signs of retina function. Aaron 45 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: James was severely injured in an electrical incident that resulted 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: in him losing his left eye, but just over a 47 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: year ago, James received a whole eye transplant. Now researchers 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: have found that while he cannot see out of the eye, 49 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: some retina function has returned. 50 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: Should kids be banned from social media? Momentum around this 51 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: conversation has been building for several months now, m and 52 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 2: this week it's seemingly come to a head with a 53 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: new premiers from the federal government to introduce age limits 54 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: on social media. 55 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: I want to see kids off their devices. We want 56 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: them to have real experiences with real people, because we 57 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 1: know that social media is causing social harm. So the 58 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: Prime Minister has committed to introducing legislation before the next election, 59 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: which we know is due by May. But other than that, 60 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of other detail. But one 61 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: of the biggest questions that we keep hearing from our 62 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: audience when it comes to social media age restrictions. Is Hey, 63 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: this sounds good in theory, but how's it going to 64 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: work and will it achieve anything in practice? So to 65 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: talk us through what this legislation might look like, how 66 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: it might or might not work, and what needs to change, 67 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Lisa Given. Lisa is a professor of 68 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: information sciences and director of ro MIT's social change platform, 69 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: and she joins us on the podcast Now, Professor Lisa Given, 70 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. 71 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 72 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: So, the federal government has announced these plans to ban 73 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: kids under fourteen from social media, but we don't really 74 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: know exactly how it's going to work. It's a big concept, 75 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: but can you break it down a little bit for 76 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: us in terms of your expertise and what you know 77 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: about how something like this might be achieved. 78 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: So generally, what the government is asking social media companies 79 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: to do is to make sure that when someone's coming 80 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 3: along to set up an account that they have reached 81 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: a minimum age. That means that the companies are going 82 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 3: to have to verify people's age, which could be done, 83 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: for example, by having a parent at test to the 84 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 3: fact that yes, my child is as fourteen or older, 85 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 3: or it could be that they request, for example, government 86 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 3: ID to be uploaded into the system so that they 87 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 3: have proof of that age. 88 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: So what is the difference between that and the current 89 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: lay of the land You know, we have Facebook and Instagram. 90 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: You take a box. Technically you're not supposed to be 91 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: on those platforms if you are under thirteen. But we 92 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: know the reality is very different. So how would this 93 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: change that landscape? 94 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: Correct? So currently people have to tick a box, as 95 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 3: you say, that means, let's say a twelve year old 96 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 3: could tick the box saying yes, I'm thirteen and get 97 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 3: access to the system. That's not going to be good 98 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 3: enough under this legislation. So what the government is saying 99 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: is that social media companies will have to prove that 100 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: they've taken all reasonable steps to make sure that someone 101 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: is fourteen or whatever age they impose, And so that's 102 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: really where they're going to have to have some documented trail, 103 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 3: some evidence, otherwise they could face fines, legislation, even court 104 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 3: proceedings could happen. 105 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 1: How do we get the social media companies to play 106 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: ball with this idea? Though we've seen that constant struggle 107 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: between kind of governments and social media companies not just 108 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: here but around the world. So how do the government 109 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: compel those players to come to the table. 110 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: It's very challenging. We could actually see platforms that simply 111 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 3: say that's fine, we're not going to make our platform 112 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 3: available in Australia to anyone. They could simply decide to 113 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: pull up sticks and go home, as it works. If 114 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 3: they do decide to continue in the market, then effectively 115 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 3: the legislation is going to be a bit of a 116 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 3: wait and see game. 117 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: I guess the big kind of question that hangs over 118 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: these conversations is whether or not you can actually force 119 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: teenagers not to participate in social media, Whether or not 120 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: you can tell an audience that's grown up with these 121 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: kind of platforms that they are no longer allowed to participate. 122 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: What are the potential fallouts that you see from that 123 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: reaction within the community. From more of a social perspective. 124 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 3: Well, technically, there are ways to circumvent those controls, So 125 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 3: someone could use a VPN or perhaps even simply going 126 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 3: to an older sibling who has access to an account. 127 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 3: So there would be ways or workarounds for children if 128 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: they're motivated enough to stay online. And I think that's 129 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 3: really the challenge here because there are many good things 130 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: about being on social media. There are huge communities that 131 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 3: children have kind of created, not only with friends that 132 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 3: they know in person, but perhaps friends around the world, 133 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 3: and there are a lot of reasons that they need 134 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: to be there, looking for information, finding supports for the 135 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: daily struggles that they might have. So it's not simply 136 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 3: a matter of saying you can no longer do this 137 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: and therefore they won't. Many people are going to find 138 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 3: a way no matter what happens. 139 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: He mentioned earlier, this concern around surveillance and privacy. How 140 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: does age verification play into that. Why is banning children 141 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: from social media potentially a privacy concern? 142 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 3: It really becomes an issue of what the mechanisms will 143 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 3: be put in in order to verify age. If there 144 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: is a requirement that students or children or their parents 145 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: have to upload data, upload a copy of a passport, 146 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: for example, one has to wonder where will those data sit. 147 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: You know, we already have concerns about hackers and different 148 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 3: organizations where our information has been made public inadvertently or 149 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 3: because of bad actors. Here's another spot where that information 150 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 3: then would be housed. So we would expect to see 151 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 3: some very tight data controls on the part of social 152 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 3: media companies, but it could raise other problems that we 153 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:40,359 Speaker 3: simply haven't anticipated. 154 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: Do you think that we're putting all our eggs in 155 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: one basket here when there could be different approaches. Is 156 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: age verification the answer to this issue or are there 157 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: other conversations that aren't being had about how we can 158 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: restrict young people from social media? 159 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 3: Absolutely? I think for me it's it's more about how 160 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 3: do we stop harmful content at source? This is a 161 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 3: really complex social issue. There's no doubt that there's harmful 162 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 3: content online. How do we actually stop that, not just 163 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: to protect children, to protect all of us really, So 164 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 3: for me, it's not about saying that we need to 165 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 3: ban children and that they shouldn't be on these platforms. 166 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: It's about how do we make sure that's a safe 167 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 3: environment for them. At the same time, there could be 168 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: you know, additional resources put into helping parents, helping teachers, 169 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 3: other people around those children so that we can actually 170 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: have conversations and appropriate training for children around how to 171 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: navigate social media safely. 172 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: It's obviously an incredibly nuanced sie. As you've touched on, 173 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: people seem to want to have a single entity to 174 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: blame for the issue, or people want one entity to 175 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: take responsibility, whether that's government, parents, social media platforms, or 176 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: uses themselves. Do you think that there's ever going to 177 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: be a sufficient answer to that question who's responsible? 178 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 3: I think we all want a quick fix that would 179 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 3: be the ideal for this, but really the more we 180 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 3: dig into the issue, we see how complex it actually is. 181 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 3: I don't think there is a quick fix here. This 182 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 3: is really about battling social issues, you know, bullying, misogyny, 183 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 3: These are real issues that have been with us long 184 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 3: before even the internet existed. How do we battle these? 185 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: So it's in a way very positive that we're having 186 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 3: these conversations around the harms that we face on a 187 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: daily basis, But there is no quick fix. 188 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: Are we asking too much of parents with these models? 189 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: The idea that you know, providing consent for your underage 190 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: kid to join a platform, or that you have to 191 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: be part of the age verification process, do you think 192 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: that that place is an unfair burden on parents who 193 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: are already trying to manage what it's like having teenagers online. 194 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 3: I think many people may not realize the steps that 195 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: may be involved in this type of of a ban, 196 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 3: and I think they might believe, oh, this is great, 197 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: the government is doing this and they're going to manage 198 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: the tech company. But in fact the process could involve 199 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 3: parents and could be very difficult to manage within the home, 200 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: particularly if you've got kids of different ages. You might 201 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: be concerned about where you might have to upload information 202 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 3: to verify age or to consent to that. At the 203 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: same time, it presumes that parents are going to have 204 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 3: their children's best interests at heart, and we know some 205 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 3: children need social media and the information it provides because 206 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 3: they're not getting the support that they need in the 207 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 3: home or in their communities. 208 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: Liza, do you think that the bands are going to work. 209 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 3: I don't think the bands are going to work. I 210 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 3: think that even if we bring them in and we 211 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 3: jump through the hoops of age verification, etc. There will 212 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 3: still be people who circumvent those rules. I think at 213 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 3: the end of the day, what we're looking for here 214 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: is a simple solution to a complex social problem. 215 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: For Visilisa given. Thank you so much for your time. 216 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 2: My pleasure, thanks for having me, Thank you for joining 217 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: us for another episode of The Daily Os. It is 218 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 2: a fascinating topic and one that I'm sure a lot 219 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 2: of our listeners will care deeply about If you enjoyed 220 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: this episode and you're listening on Spotify or Apple, you 221 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: can hit follow and that will send a message to 222 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: the platform that you are enjoying what we are making. 223 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 2: If you're watching us on YouTube, you can hit subscribe 224 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: and never miss another video. We'll be back again tomorrow, 225 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: but until then, have a fabulous day. My name is 226 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 2: Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Caalcutin woman 227 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 2: from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast 228 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and 229 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 2: pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. 230 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 2: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 231 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: both past and present.