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Speaker 1: Now joining me in the studio right now is the

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Speaker 1: opposition leader, Leah fanoki Aroh, good morning to you, Leah.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, and to your wonderful listeners.

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Speaker 1: Before we get started, can I just say that you

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Speaker 1: are obviously fully dressed in lycra and wearing a helmet

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Speaker 1: hat is going on?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's all a bit bizarre, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: No, My CLP team are training for the gram Fondo

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Speaker 2: to raise money for charity Dar and family Laura donating

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Speaker 2: five hundred dollars for every politician who rides sixty seven CA's.

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Speaker 2: So we're being good sports and participating. So we went

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Speaker 2: on a big ride this morning, and we've been riding

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Speaker 2: around town doing some community engagement and I checked the

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Speaker 2: time and I thought.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, I've got to be on MiG. So I

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Speaker 3: rode here and here I am still in my helmet.

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Speaker 1: Can I just clarify you're not wearing this into instruments today,

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Speaker 1: are you all?

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Speaker 2: I thought it just might spicings up a little bit,

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Speaker 2: you know, get a few chins wagon about the opposition

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Speaker 2: leader in fluorescent orange licra douring us do it's what.

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Speaker 4: Do you reckon the orange wiggle?

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Speaker 2: Well, we could start, you know, they make a lot

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Speaker 2: of money those Perhaps I've got a new career headway.

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Speaker 1: We'll have to make sure that we get a photo

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Speaker 1: so people listening know exactly what I'm talking about. But

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Speaker 1: let's get into those pretty serious issues and some of

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Speaker 1: those pretty serious discussions that were had, of course in

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Speaker 1: the estimates process yesterday. We know that it did continue

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Speaker 1: with the new Police Minister and indeed the Police Commission

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Speaker 1: affronting a raft of questions from you and to other

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Speaker 1: members of Parliament. A number of those so went unanswered

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Speaker 1: when you did try to ask about nine branches of

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Police Association giving no confidence motions in

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Speaker 1: Commissioner Chalker, Leah, what exactly were you trying to get

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Speaker 1: to the bottom of here.

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Speaker 2: So we've obviously got Michael Gunner's gone, we've got a

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Speaker 2: new Chief Minister and a new Police Minister. Now to me,

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Speaker 2: that's an important opportunity for this government to reframe and reset.

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Speaker 2: So my very first questions to the new Police Minister

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Speaker 2: were around you know, attrition is at eleven percent, chronic

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Speaker 2: levels of police leaving.

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Speaker 3: Mental health is a major issue.

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Speaker 2: Morale has never been worse, and the disciplinary process is

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Speaker 2: in dire need of review for police. What is she

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Speaker 2: going to be doing about that? And it was met

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Speaker 2: with hostility. It was met with well, these aren't budget

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Speaker 2: related questions. I don't want to talk about that. And

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Speaker 2: yet fundamentally, these are the biggest issues facing our police

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Speaker 2: force that need to be dealt.

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Speaker 1: With and there is no doubt that a lot of

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Speaker 1: those a lot of those points are things that need

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Speaker 1: to be dealt with. But just going back to those

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Speaker 1: nine branches of the Northern Territory Association giving that no

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Speaker 1: confidence motion, is that number correct?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, I don't know obviously that is what's being reported.

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Speaker 2: I think at last count it was six, so perhaps

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Speaker 2: it is up to nine. Either way, it sends a

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Speaker 2: very important message. You know, our rank and file feel

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Speaker 2: very disconnected from the executive. Now, whether that's you know,

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Speaker 2: I can't understand all of those reasons. I've got a

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Speaker 2: pretty good idea about some. But ultimately the Police Minister

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Speaker 2: has a really important leadership role to play here and

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Speaker 2: that's what we were trying to get to the bottom

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Speaker 2: of yesterday is what is government going to do. They've

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Speaker 2: sat back, they've had a hands off approach. What we

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Speaker 2: need to do is really bring rank and file on

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Speaker 2: the executive back together. We need a functioning police force

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Speaker 2: because they are under tremendous pressure. Crimes never been worse,

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Speaker 2: We've got all these other serious issues as I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 2: within the structure of the police force, and you can't

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Speaker 2: have a police force that's been under the punt with

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Speaker 2: COVID for two years, feeling unsupported, having division between rank

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Speaker 2: and file and the executive, and then a minister just

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Speaker 2: sort of pretending it's business as if there.

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Speaker 1: Is a situation where nine branches are asking for this vote,

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Speaker 1: what do you think needs to happen.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know the exact process, but my understanding

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Speaker 2: is then it goes to the Police Association executive and

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Speaker 2: then they bring it to the conference in August, which

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Speaker 2: I always attend, and so I'll be watching very keenly

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Speaker 2: to see what does happen, because that, of course is

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Speaker 2: where representatives of police go and they undertake votes. And

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Speaker 2: I think that the government needs to look very seriously

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Speaker 2: at what it is rank and file are saying things

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Speaker 2: are not okay for whatever reason, and it's really important

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Speaker 2: that we get to the bottom of it. We've tried

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Speaker 2: to be really proactive in this space. Twice we've tried

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Speaker 2: to move select committees in the Parliament to investigate attrition

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Speaker 2: and all of these issues around why police are leaving.

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Speaker 2: But the reality is, if we don't deal with attrition,

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Speaker 2: everything else flows from there. If we've got police leaving

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Speaker 2: in droves, we can't recruit fast enough. It costs of

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Speaker 2: fortune to do that. You can't replace the knowledge and

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Speaker 2: the skills. We want happy police having long term, lifetime

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Speaker 2: careers in the territory, keeping their families in the territory,

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Speaker 2: and we can't do that with a bury your head

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Speaker 2: and the sand litude.

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Speaker 1: We will delve into that in a little bit more

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Speaker 1: detail in just a moment, but just to go back to,

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Speaker 1: you know, the questions that you're asking around these nine branches,

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Speaker 1: If indeed you were asking the Minister about them yesterday,

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Speaker 1: presumably you're thinking that there does need to be that vote.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the Police Association probably have an obligation.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how that works, but you would think

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Speaker 2: if nine out of twelve of your sub branches are

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Speaker 2: pushing in that direction, then you have to bring it

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Speaker 2: to a vote. I mean, that's entirely a matter for

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Speaker 2: the Association and their membership, and we'll obviously be watching

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Speaker 2: and listening to that closely.

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Speaker 1: But do you think though, I mean, if you have

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Speaker 1: got a situation where there are that number of branches

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Speaker 1: that are pushing for this, do you I think that

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Speaker 1: realistically they need to listen, well, you know, not.

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Speaker 2: To tell the Police Association how to do their job.

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Speaker 2: Of course, they're their own representative body, but you know,

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Speaker 2: I guess they must run in a majority rule system

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Speaker 2: like every other organization.

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Speaker 3: So nine out of twelve is a big number.

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Speaker 2: And I think you know that that vote or have

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Speaker 2: it works, probably will happen in August, if not earlier,

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Speaker 2: And certainly, you know, whatever happens with that, Katie, we

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Speaker 2: will be out there listening, we will be out there

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Speaker 2: talking to police, and we will be watching that very closely.

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Speaker 2: But I think, you know, the systematic problems with our

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Speaker 2: police force are also bigger than one person, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's important to remember that. And ultimately, Kate Warden,

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Speaker 2: you know she's a new minister now, she cannot just

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Speaker 2: continue on the Michael Gunner path. You know, we've got

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Speaker 2: to address these issues of morale, attrition, the disciplinary system,

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Speaker 2: mental health.

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Speaker 1: These are critical let's talk about that, because we know

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Speaker 1: that there was that revelation made. That's the report into

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Speaker 1: how police obviously tackle chronic mental health issues.

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Speaker 4: It was finalized in March. Was there any.

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Speaker 1: Indication given as to whether this is going to be

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Speaker 1: made public or what changes are going to be made

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Speaker 1: in this space?

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Speaker 2: I asked several times for that report to be made

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Speaker 2: public and the Minister said she would give some members

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Speaker 2: of Parliament a copy, but a confidential coffee, which doesn't

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Speaker 2: interest me, Katie. I don't want to see anything confidentially

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Speaker 2: that you know members of the public aren't privy to either.

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Speaker 2: So what's interesting though, is that police have had that

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Speaker 2: report since March, no cabinet submission has been made. The

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Speaker 2: commissioner was very clear that to implement all of the

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Speaker 2: recommendations it would require extra budget, which of course government

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Speaker 2: should do. I mean they waste money on all sorts

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Speaker 2: of extraordinary things. You know, it is extremely valuable to

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Speaker 2: spend money on the health and wellbeing of our emergency services.

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Speaker 2: They should be funding this and it should be expedited.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this should have happened yesterday, so we want

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Speaker 2: no delays on that. It's got to be done. But

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Speaker 2: the Minister's got to spearhead this again. She was saying

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Speaker 2: things like, oh, I've been briefed on the report, I've

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Speaker 2: read the report, but not taking ownership of it. As

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Speaker 2: the Police Minister, you have that role of leadership. And

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Speaker 2: I think this goes back to why we're so passionate

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Speaker 2: about the Chief Minister should hold the police portfolio. And

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Speaker 2: that's why we've made commitment time and time again that

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Speaker 2: if I'm Chief Minister in twenty twenty four, I will

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Speaker 2: carry that police portfolio because these issues have to be

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Speaker 2: number one.

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Speaker 3: Community safety has got to be front of mine.

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Speaker 4: Now, I want to move along. Attrition rates.

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Speaker 1: You did touch on this just a moment ago, but

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Speaker 1: they have been on the rise, as we know over

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Speaker 1: the last year. That's according to the Police Association. Was

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Speaker 1: their context given about those attrition rates and why we

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Speaker 1: are losing officers.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the government line has been for a long

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Speaker 2: time that it's a very competitive space that every police

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Speaker 2: force in the country is finding it really hard to

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Speaker 2: get police. Well, that's all great, and that might be true,

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Speaker 2: but we know from talking to police, we know from

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Speaker 2: the eleven percent attrition rate that the Police Association is

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Speaker 2: saying we're about to hit that something's got to give.

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Speaker 2: We know that the Rolf trial and everything around that

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Speaker 2: undoubtedly has had an impact. We know that mental health

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Speaker 2: support is having an impact. We know that morale is

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Speaker 2: as low as it's ever been, discontent within the force,

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Speaker 2: all of the surveys show up damning statistics around. We

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Speaker 2: know that the disciplinary system needs to be reviewed, and

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Speaker 2: you know we uncovered yesterday that we won't see legislation

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Speaker 2: on that until the middle of next year. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this has been a promise year or year from this

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Speaker 2: government and still nothing. So I think there's plenty of

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Speaker 2: reasons for attrition. That's why we want to have a

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Speaker 2: Select committee to investigate it, so that police can confidentially

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Speaker 2: come forward and really truly say why they're leaving.

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Speaker 1: And so, how exactly or when will you with the

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Speaker 1: Select committee that you are proposing, how would that work?

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Speaker 4: When would it get into place?

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Speaker 2: Well, we've tried twice and it's been knocked down twice,

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Speaker 2: even as recently as last sittings. I think we did

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Speaker 2: it Katie, just a few weeks ago. But really what

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Speaker 2: it would then allow is police to come forward confidentially

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Speaker 2: in camera and provide their testimony as to what they

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Speaker 2: think is wrong with the force, without any fear of

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Speaker 2: retribution or whatever else might be going on in people's minds.

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Speaker 2: When I asked yesterday about exit interviews, I think out

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Speaker 2: of the one hundred and forty one officers who resigned

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Speaker 2: or retired for the reporting period, only eighty one exit

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Speaker 2: interviews have been conducted. And you know, the feedback apparently

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Speaker 2: is on we want to move into state to be

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Speaker 2: closer to family.

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Speaker 3: Well that might be a.

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Speaker 2: Percentage of people, but I think, you know, for a

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Speaker 2: lot of police, I'm sure it's a cover for bigger

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Speaker 2: systemic issues. And again, where is the police minister taking leadership?

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Speaker 2: What is the point of being a minister if you're

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Speaker 2: not going to grab it by the way.

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Speaker 1: We will see whether we can get her on as

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Speaker 1: well to ask a few of these questions for ourselves,

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Speaker 1: because I'm very mindful that we are sort of hearing

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Speaker 1: you know one song, absolutely, but look, the Darwin Watchhouse

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Speaker 1: not operational. Our twenty four to seven is something that

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Speaker 1: you did uncover. What was the reason given for this?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's resourcing and the whole point of building Palmerston

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Speaker 2: Police Station was to have a second watchhouse because of course,

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Speaker 2: if you're a copper in Casurina and you arrest somewhat

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Speaker 2: you've got to drive all the way into the city

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Speaker 2: that takes you off the road. Or if you arrest

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Speaker 2: someone in Humpty Doo, you used to have to drive

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Speaker 2: all the way into the city that might be three

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Speaker 2: or four hours off the road. Palmerston was built giving

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Speaker 2: that second option for police depending on where they arrest someone,

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Speaker 2: so that they've got quicker processing times back out on

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Speaker 2: the road. Now again, because of attrition, because of the

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Speaker 2: demand on policing, the high rates of DV and everything else,

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Speaker 2: we can't staff both the Darwin and Parmesan watchhouses seven

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Speaker 2: days a week, which again effects capability on the ground.

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Speaker 1: Do you reckon that it's impacting you know what we

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Speaker 1: are seeing in the community.

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Speaker 4: Do you genuinely think that it means that?

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Speaker 1: Then you know we're not seeing police go out two

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Speaker 1: different incidents as quickly as they could.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean that was the whole premise around the

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Speaker 2: Parmesan station. And it's not police's fault. It just comes

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Speaker 2: back to again there's too much crime and the resourcing issue.

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Speaker 2: I mean, all of this, if you had less crime,

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Speaker 2: police wouldn't be as busy, they'd be able to get

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Speaker 2: to things quicker. And obviously, if the resources were there,

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Speaker 2: people were leaving in droves, we'd have plenty more police.

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Speaker 1: Now, before I let you go this morning, I do

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Speaker 1: want to ask we know that the youth, you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the issues that we've seen with youth crime

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Speaker 1: were certainly asked about yesterday. I know that you'd ask

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Speaker 1: some questions about those breaching bail and also you'd ask

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Speaker 1: questions about how many had undertaken different programs, who were

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Speaker 1: obviously who had offended. What were some of those details

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Speaker 1: that were revealed, Well.

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Speaker 2: Not that much, to be honest, quite a few were

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Speaker 2: taken on notice, and some of the numbers the questions

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Speaker 2: we were asking were sort of different to the data

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Speaker 2: that was coming back from the minister. So we're still

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Speaker 2: working through those to crunch it up. But you know,

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Speaker 2: what we do know is that victim offender conferencing seems

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Speaker 2: to be a bit of a flop. At the moment,

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Speaker 2: police had only done well, police had only done one

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Speaker 2: in the reporting period, which could be for a number

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Speaker 2: of reasons.

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Speaker 3: Apparently, there are.

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Speaker 4: The programs that get done besides just through the.

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Speaker 2: Police yes, so territory families also run them. And so

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Speaker 2: for example, Josh bergoing from Alice Springs was able to

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Speaker 2: uncover that each victim conference costs eleven thousand dollars per conference,

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Speaker 2: but even then territory families only did eleven. So for

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Speaker 2: the whole reporting period, we've had twelve victim offender conferences.

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Speaker 2: I asked very specifically to government, and they're going to

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Speaker 2: get back to me. I said, I want to know

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Speaker 2: how many conferences were offered, how many were rejected by

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Speaker 2: the offender, and how many were rejected by the victim,

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Speaker 2: Because if it's the offenders rejecting the victim conference, I

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Speaker 2: think should not be acceptable. You know, we've really got

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Speaker 2: to look at how much offenders are able to get

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Speaker 2: away with and what our expectation of them.

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Speaker 1: There's some serious questions around that. I mean, when you

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Speaker 1: look at the amount of money eleven thousand dollars per

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Speaker 1: victim conferencing, that is an astronomical amount for somebody to

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Speaker 1: obviously sit down with the person that they have offended

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Speaker 1: against and you know, really be able to understand the

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Speaker 1: trauma that they've caused. But then if there is only

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Speaker 1: twelve over that whole reporting period, you have to question

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Speaker 1: whether the program's.

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Speaker 2: Working exactly and if no one wants to participate again,

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Speaker 2: could we spend our money better elsewhere? I mean, we

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Speaker 2: also uncovered that two hundred and ninety seven US were

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Speaker 2: arrested on six hundred and nineteen occasions for serious breach

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Speaker 2: of bail. So it once again shows you that that

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Speaker 2: repeat offending is still at extraordinary high levels. I mean,

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Speaker 2: to have less than three hundred US committing more than

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Speaker 2: six hundred offenses for serious breach of baal shows that

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Speaker 2: they're offending while on bail. So we ask a range

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Speaker 2: of other questions around electronic monitoring and things like that,

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Speaker 2: and that'll take a good thirty days for us to

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Speaker 2: get those answers, and we'll definitely be letting everyone know

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Speaker 2: what comes out of that.

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Speaker 1: Well, Leathanocchiaro, we are going to have to leave it there.

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Speaker 1: I know that there is another busy day ahead in

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Speaker 1: Estimates today.

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Speaker 4: Who's up today, do you know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: We've got Steve Edgington and Marie Claire Boothby fronting our

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Speaker 2: team for today, and Estimates continues right through to Thursday.

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Speaker 2: So all day today, all day Wednesday, and then half

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Speaker 2: day Thursday, we've got the government owned corporations, Power and Water, Jacana,

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Speaker 2: et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And then we pop.

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Speaker 2: Into Parliament for Thursday hover and pass this monstrosity of

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Speaker 2: a budget.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I think we're also then Friday going to

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Speaker 1: be joined by Jared Maylee for the week that was.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you'll wear that outfit that you've got

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Speaker 1: on as well.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't he loves wearing likera, Jared Maylee. I tell you why.

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Speaker 3: Those rural people, they love their likera more than anyone.

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Speaker 3: And you've got to see it to believe it.

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Speaker 4: Well, we better leave it there.

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Speaker 1: Leaf and Occhio, thanks so much for your time. We

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Speaker 1: will catch up with you again very soon.

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Speaker 3: Take care everyone,