1
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,400
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

2
00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

3
00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:10,320
Speaker 2: wants answers now.

4
00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,080
Speaker 3: The way I constantly think about this is do I

5
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,760
Speaker 3: want this thing done perfectly now? Do I want this

6
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,880
Speaker 3: homework assignment to be perfect? Do I want this greed

7
00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,480
Speaker 3: to be perfect? Do I want the dishwasher loaded perfectly now?

8
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,159
Speaker 3: Or do I want a kid who knows how to

9
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:23,639
Speaker 3: do it themselves next time?

10
00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 2: And now here's the stars of our show, My mom

11
00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:27,600
Speaker 2: and Dad.

12
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:28,720
Speaker 1: Today's an exciting day.

13
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,160
Speaker 4: Kylie, Hello everyone, Doctor Justin Colson here, dad of six

14
00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,159
Speaker 4: daughters and the author of six books. Here with Kylie,

15
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 4: my wife and co host, and Honey. Somebody that I've

16
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,640
Speaker 4: been wanting to talk to for years and we finally

17
00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,159
Speaker 4: managed to get hold of her. Jessica Lay New York

18
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,959
Speaker 4: Times bestselling author. She wrote The Gift of Failure, How

19
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 4: the best parents learn to let go so their children

20
00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,720
Speaker 4: can succeed. Jess is a mum of a couple of

21
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,360
Speaker 4: kids who are in there. Well, one of them's an

22
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,360
Speaker 4: adult now, the other one's just finishing high school. So

23
00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 4: she's got them through. They've survived, They've thrived.

24
00:00:59,560 --> 00:00:59,920
Speaker 1: Jessica.

25
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,080
Speaker 4: The book was published about half a dozen years ago,

26
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,399
Speaker 4: but so many parents haven't heard of it, especially here

27
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,000
Speaker 4: in Australia, and we're going to talk about it today.

28
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,200
Speaker 1: We're so grateful that you've joined us.

29
00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,679
Speaker 3: Thank you so so much for having me. I really

30
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:12,960
Speaker 3: really appreciate.

31
00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,560
Speaker 2: It, Jess. The book is called The Gift of Failure

32
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 2: and I was just flicking through the front few pages

33
00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:21,399
Speaker 2: of it and I found this quote that just jumped

34
00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,199
Speaker 2: out at me. It says, or you said, I'm out

35
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 2: of love and desire to protect our children's self esteem,

36
00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 2: we have bulldozed every uncomfortable bump and obstacle out of

37
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,600
Speaker 2: their way, clearing the manicured path that we hoped would

38
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,679
Speaker 2: lead to success and happiness. Unfortunately, and doing so, we

39
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,400
Speaker 2: have deprived our children of the most important lessons of childhood.

40
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,440
Speaker 2: The setbacks, mistakes, miscalculations and failures we have shoved out

41
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 2: of our children's way are the very experiences that teach

42
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,680
Speaker 2: them how to be resourceful, persistent, innovative and resilient citizens

43
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 2: of this world. So can you just kind of, I guess,

44
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 2: dissect that a little bit for us and explain where

45
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 2: you're going with this.

46
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 3: I've been a teacher for a long time. But when

47
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,360
Speaker 3: I wrote The Gift of Failure, I was teaching in

48
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,880
Speaker 3: middle school here in the US. That's you know, kids

49
00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:15,240
Speaker 3: twelve through fourteen. And by the way, I love that

50
00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,840
Speaker 3: age group. I love, love, love middle school kids. They're

51
00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,160
Speaker 3: just the best. I call them pupa people.

52
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,120
Speaker 2: And I had.

53
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,880
Speaker 3: Noticed that the parents of my students were doing a

54
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,440
Speaker 3: lot of things that were really making it more difficult

55
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,119
Speaker 3: for their kids to learn. And of course they were

56
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,440
Speaker 3: doing these things in the name of helping their kids,

57
00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,799
Speaker 3: and you know, you know, bulldozing things out of their

58
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,000
Speaker 3: way and making it so there they had lots of

59
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,880
Speaker 3: opportunities and all that sort of thing. And that was

60
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,240
Speaker 3: really frustrating to me. And I was on this super

61
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 3: high horse about it because you know, like, I'm the

62
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,720
Speaker 3: noble educator and you're messing things up for me, until

63
00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,880
Speaker 3: I realized that that's exactly what I was doing with

64
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,160
Speaker 3: my own children. And I had parented one of my

65
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 3: kids into such helplessness that he couldn't he was nine

66
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,240
Speaker 3: and he couldn't even tie its own shoes. So I

67
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,840
Speaker 3: had to get humble real fast. And luckily I have

68
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,520
Speaker 3: the best job in the world, which is getting to

69
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,080
Speaker 3: research and research and research and answer the questions that

70
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,560
Speaker 3: I have and translate that for a popular audience. And

71
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,600
Speaker 3: that's how the gift of failure was born. And really

72
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,480
Speaker 3: that idea of you know, depriving kids of learning opportunities

73
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,679
Speaker 3: all originally came through my teacher brain and then got

74
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,480
Speaker 3: filtered through the parent brain because I had to deal

75
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:27,160
Speaker 3: with it myself.

76
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 1: I like what you said, though, parents are doing this

77
00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:30,880
Speaker 1: with the very best of intentions. Jest.

78
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,640
Speaker 4: It's not like they're saying, oh, of course, it's not

79
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,360
Speaker 4: they're saying, I need to stop my child failing because

80
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 4: I don't want them to grow or I want to

81
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 4: mess them up. It's almost like there's an understanding when

82
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 4: you talk to any.

83
00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:42,520
Speaker 1: Adult about this.

84
00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,240
Speaker 4: Logically, everyone says, yeah, of course, failure helps you to grow.

85
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 4: Of course, it's the struggles that make you stronger. What

86
00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,280
Speaker 4: is it about raising children that makes us, with the

87
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,320
Speaker 4: best of intentions, step in and stop our children from

88
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:55,880
Speaker 4: having these experiences.

89
00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 3: Because we don't like seeing our kids frustrated. That's emotionally challenging.

90
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,920
Speaker 3: And you know, I wrote this book on this and

91
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 3: I overstep all the time. It makes things go faster

92
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 3: my kid, you know, it just it greases the wheels

93
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,440
Speaker 3: things go faster. I get things done the way I

94
00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 3: want them done. I you know, I don't have to

95
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,400
Speaker 3: worry so much about whether or not my kid's going

96
00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,279
Speaker 3: to take care of it themselves. If I just do

97
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,000
Speaker 3: it myself, if I nag, then I can you know,

98
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,880
Speaker 3: get some emotional insurance that that this isn't going to

99
00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,919
Speaker 3: get worse and that things will get done. And I

100
00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,720
Speaker 3: think in the end, we're really also worried about, you know,

101
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,599
Speaker 3: our parenting report card. We're worried about other people are

102
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,160
Speaker 3: going to think about us if our kids don't you know,

103
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:36,839
Speaker 3: do the things they're supposed to do, or get the

104
00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:38,479
Speaker 3: grades we want them to get, or get into the

105
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 3: school that we want them to get into, and so

106
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,400
Speaker 3: you know, they're even in the research, there's at places

107
00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 3: where researchers see examples of what's overparenting or what's called

108
00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,880
Speaker 3: directive parenting, though some of those behaviors get amplified when

109
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 3: the researchers tell the parents that other parents will be

110
00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 3: judging their child's work after the experiment, because it's that

111
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,840
Speaker 3: competitive press sure that comes from other parents or the

112
00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,160
Speaker 3: teachers or whatever it is. You know, if we fall

113
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,080
Speaker 3: down on the job. We're always worried that we're going

114
00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,640
Speaker 3: to get judged by our kids, friends' parents, or the

115
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 3: other parents in the parking lot, or the teachers of

116
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 3: our parents. So, you know, it has a lot. It

117
00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:16,719
Speaker 3: has more to do with us than it does with them.

118
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:21,280
Speaker 3: Our worries that they're going to feel stupid or get

119
00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,480
Speaker 3: frustrated and be able to you know, decompensate, those are

120
00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,039
Speaker 3: usually unfounded, but it makes us feel better to step

121
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:27,600
Speaker 3: in and help.

122
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 2: Jess. Is this a generational thing? Like I don't feel

123
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,600
Speaker 2: like my parents felt the same way about that kind

124
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,680
Speaker 2: of judgment of other parents as I have, you know,

125
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,080
Speaker 2: kind of going through parenting. I remember, you know, as

126
00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 2: a young mom, you know, the competition that was involved

127
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,400
Speaker 2: with you know, my child started walking when they were

128
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,520
Speaker 2: seven months old, and you know, all of those kinds

129
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,320
Speaker 2: of conversations. Is this something that's kind of I guess

130
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,280
Speaker 2: comeing to parenting, you know, in the last little while,

131
00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,240
Speaker 2: or is this has this been an age old thing?

132
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,799
Speaker 3: The easy way to explain is that we're having kids later,

133
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,400
Speaker 3: after having been in the workforce for longer, or having

134
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,239
Speaker 3: had more a lot more education. I know, I'm guilty

135
00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,480
Speaker 3: on all those counts, and I I wanted to use

136
00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 3: the tools that I got in work. You know, spreadsheets, yay,

137
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 3: I can do Excel spreadsheets about my kids input and output,

138
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,880
Speaker 3: and I can map their you know, their bedtime and

139
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,479
Speaker 3: their sleep schedules and all that stuff. But you know,

140
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,360
Speaker 3: you and then on top of that, we're so used

141
00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,080
Speaker 3: to having you know, short terms of short term evaluations

142
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,880
Speaker 3: on our on our whatever it is we're doing for work,

143
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,360
Speaker 3: and it's really hard when you have this baby, this

144
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 3: child that is so precious to you, and this is

145
00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,640
Speaker 3: like the most important job you have to do well,

146
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,000
Speaker 3: and suddenly we're getting no report card on that. So

147
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,160
Speaker 3: we start to look for, you know, our own rewards

148
00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,600
Speaker 3: in their accomplishments. And there's a whole history chapter in

149
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,080
Speaker 3: the book, the Gift of Failure, because this is a

150
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 3: complicated picture, but in the end, it's you know, having

151
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,960
Speaker 3: kids later having kids after understanding, you know, using the

152
00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,640
Speaker 3: tools of business and education in order to apply to

153
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,800
Speaker 3: evaluating how our kids are doing.

154
00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,160
Speaker 4: There's a whole literature on what we call parental investment

155
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,760
Speaker 4: in children, and the research certainly shows that we're more

156
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,720
Speaker 4: invested in our children now than perhaps ever in the

157
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,720
Speaker 4: history of the world in terms of the expectations we

158
00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:19,000
Speaker 4: have on them, in terms of the financial input that

159
00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,840
Speaker 4: we have into their lives, and the more we put

160
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,160
Speaker 4: in financially and time wise and all that kind of thing,

161
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 4: the more we kind of expect to extract from them. Plus,

162
00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,160
Speaker 4: with the increasingly pressured world, we want our children to

163
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,360
Speaker 4: grow up to have six figure incomes and have the

164
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 4: nice profession and so all of that expectation. We can't

165
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:38,880
Speaker 4: afford for them to fail. They've got to get straight

166
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,680
Speaker 4: a's on their report card. They've got to get into

167
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,000
Speaker 4: the right course. I feel like society has become so

168
00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,360
Speaker 4: unhealthy for families, so unhealthy for children when we buy

169
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,520
Speaker 4: into that, and of course most of us do, because

170
00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,280
Speaker 4: it's hard to find alternative ways forward. In just a

171
00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:55,600
Speaker 4: sec we're going to ask you how we're supposed to

172
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:56,560
Speaker 4: overcome this.

173
00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 1: At first, we need to take quick break. It's the

174
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,640
Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast.

175
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,480
Speaker 5: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

176
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 5: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

177
00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 5: of discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits

178
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 5: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at happyfamilies

179
00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,800
Speaker 5: dot com dot au Slash Shop.

180
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

181
00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're

182
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,480
Speaker 2: talking with Jessica Lay about her book The Gift of Failure.

183
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 4: Jess My observation is the parents generally react really poorly

184
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 4: when their children fail, like or even when they fail

185
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 4: to succeed. They don't necessarily fail, but they just don't

186
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,599
Speaker 4: get the outcome that the parent wants. I'll give you

187
00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,280
Speaker 4: a couple of examples. They get eighty percent on a test,

188
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:43,960
Speaker 4: and what does the parents say to them?

189
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:45,760
Speaker 1: Why did you want to get eighty percent? What about

190
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:46,559
Speaker 1: the other twenty percent?

191
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 4: The child loses a soccer game, or doesn't convert a

192
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 4: goal in a or hit a basket in a basketball match,

193
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,720
Speaker 4: and the parent says, You've got to defend down that

194
00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 4: left side better, or you've got to get that shot

195
00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:03,520
Speaker 4: off faster. There's all of this constant correction and direction,

196
00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,559
Speaker 4: and it's natural because we want our children to succeed.

197
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:07,680
Speaker 4: But what would you say to the parent who says,

198
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,199
Speaker 4: I'm just trying to help them fulfill their potential. But

199
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:11,840
Speaker 4: there's nothing the metal with what I'm doing.

200
00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 3: One of the books I love the most when I'm

201
00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,600
Speaker 3: talking about the stuff is Tim Harford's book Adapt and

202
00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,320
Speaker 3: he talks about the fact that in business, when you

203
00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 3: have a big when you make a mistake, when you

204
00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,400
Speaker 3: have some sort of gaff, when you have a business failure,

205
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,120
Speaker 3: it's the businesses that ignore the failure, pretend the failure

206
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,280
Speaker 3: didn't happen, blame it on someone else. Who are you

207
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,679
Speaker 3: going to make those mistakes again? It's the businesses that

208
00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,680
Speaker 3: really dissect what happened and put things in place so

209
00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,720
Speaker 3: that it won't happen again. Those are the business that

210
00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,520
Speaker 3: are more likely to succeed because they're learning from their mistakes.

211
00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 3: And you know, that's a great analogy for kids as well.

212
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,920
Speaker 3: And the reason that, you know, one of the things

213
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 3: that's so hard for us to grasp is that the

214
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 3: way I constantly think about this is do I want

215
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 3: this thing done perfectly now? Do I want this homework

216
00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 3: assignment to be perfec Do I want this grade to

217
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,880
Speaker 3: be perfect? Do I want the dishwasher loaded perfectly now?

218
00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:05,720
Speaker 3: Or do I want a kid who knows how to

219
00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 3: do it themselves next time? Do I want a kid

220
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,480
Speaker 3: who's prepared to do it on their own next time?

221
00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 3: Do I want a kid who knows how to use

222
00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,480
Speaker 3: a calendar so that next time he is actually doing

223
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,760
Speaker 3: it himself, rather than my nagging him into a state

224
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,400
Speaker 3: of submission so that he'll just do it and get

225
00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:22,480
Speaker 3: it over with. That sort of the long term view of,

226
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 3: you know, the difference between like how I want things

227
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:27,960
Speaker 3: to go in this second and how I want things

228
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,960
Speaker 3: to go eventually for my child. I think that's the

229
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,840
Speaker 3: mantra that I sort of have to keep thinking about

230
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 3: all the time, the process over the end product, always

231
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,600
Speaker 3: valuing that process of And so when you talk about

232
00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,320
Speaker 3: the bad grade coming home, the problem is what we

233
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,480
Speaker 3: tend to do is react to that grade by withdrawing

234
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,360
Speaker 3: our love, or in a very real sense, you know,

235
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 3: we tend to be silent, which kids can often read

236
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 3: as withdrawal of love based on outcome. But if we're

237
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,120
Speaker 3: constantly focused on the process of learning, the process of

238
00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,560
Speaker 3: figuring out what to do differently next time, the process

239
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 3: of what to leave behind and what to bring forward

240
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,160
Speaker 3: with you for the next iteration, then that sort of

241
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,640
Speaker 3: the bomb to my you know, to my whole need

242
00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,440
Speaker 3: to fix fix, fix, fix fix, which is this is

243
00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,719
Speaker 3: a long term process. What is he going to learn

244
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,760
Speaker 3: out of this, and how do I keep my nose

245
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:17,160
Speaker 3: out of it so that he can learn as much

246
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:17,840
Speaker 3: as possible.

247
00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:18,400
Speaker 1: There's a.

248
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 4: Process that I go through with my kids, and I

249
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 4: try to share this with parents as often as I can.

250
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 4: And what you've tapped into really really directs us into

251
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,800
Speaker 4: that rather than giving my evaluation said to my kids, well,

252
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 4: how did that feel?

253
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,600
Speaker 3: I actually say that a lot to parents when I say,

254
00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,240
Speaker 3: you know, when the kids come to you with the

255
00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:39,960
Speaker 3: drawing and they're like, what do you think?

256
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:40,560
Speaker 1: What do you think?

257
00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,800
Speaker 3: And you know where our reflex is to say, oh,

258
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,560
Speaker 3: it's so beautiful. The problem is is that over time,

259
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,160
Speaker 3: and this happens with teaching too, over time kids will

260
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,880
Speaker 3: start to bring you crappier and crappier content and put

261
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,640
Speaker 3: it up in your face to test you. And then

262
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,959
Speaker 3: at a certain point you're saying, oh, it's so beautiful

263
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,720
Speaker 3: to a scribble, and then they have no faith in

264
00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 3: our judgment anymore. And the most the best thing we

265
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:01,640
Speaker 3: can do is when the kid comes to us to

266
00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,920
Speaker 3: show us this thing, as we say, well what do

267
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,160
Speaker 3: you think of it? Or you know, how do you

268
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,319
Speaker 3: think you played today? Or how do you think you

269
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,320
Speaker 3: performed on that test, and since as humans were so

270
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,480
Speaker 3: bad at metacognition, that's a great opportunity for us to

271
00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,160
Speaker 3: exercise that a little understanding what we do and don't

272
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 3: know and developing that internal compass of quality.

273
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, builds that self awareness muscle.

274
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Jess.

275
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,680
Speaker 2: One of the other things that you said in the

276
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,120
Speaker 2: book that really stood out to me in relation to

277
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,199
Speaker 2: I guess the way we the way our children perceive

278
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,360
Speaker 2: the things that we say, is this little quote that

279
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,640
Speaker 2: I found at the beginning of the book. It says,

280
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,080
Speaker 2: every time we rescue Hobba or otherwise save our children

281
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 2: from a challenge, we send a really clear message that

282
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 2: we believe they are incompetent, incapable, unworthy of our trust. Further,

283
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 2: we teach them to be dependent on us and thereby

284
00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,880
Speaker 2: deny them the very education and competence we are put

285
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,679
Speaker 2: here on this earth to hand down.

286
00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:01,120
Speaker 3: It's so powerful and I didn't realize that's what my

287
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,480
Speaker 3: kid was hearing until I really had to confront like

288
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,600
Speaker 3: the shoe tying thing, because essentially that's what was happening is,

289
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,600
Speaker 3: you know, every single time it was time for us

290
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,280
Speaker 3: to go somewhere, and I said it's faster if I

291
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 3: do it, or here, just let me do that for you. Essentially,

292
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 3: what he was hearing was, eh, I don't really think

293
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 3: you can do that. And the problem is is it

294
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:21,760
Speaker 3: led us to some pretty dark places. It led us

295
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 3: him to have a crisis of confidence. It led him

296
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,960
Speaker 3: to have a to have a real, real worries about

297
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,640
Speaker 3: my opinion of him, and and a lot of keeping

298
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,880
Speaker 3: secrets from me about what he could and couldn't do

299
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,840
Speaker 3: because he didn't want to face something. He was so

300
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,680
Speaker 3: embarrassed by the fact that he, for example, couldn't tie shoes.

301
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,920
Speaker 3: We had to do some real fancy footwork to get

302
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,480
Speaker 3: ourselves out of that situation, because you know, they had

303
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,520
Speaker 3: they had a hockey or a skating outing coming up,

304
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,800
Speaker 3: and you know, if you've seen skates lately, they have

305
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,080
Speaker 3: a lot of well, I guess now they have latches,

306
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 3: but before they had they had laces. And you know,

307
00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,200
Speaker 3: if he couldn't tie shoelaces on the sneakers, he certainly

308
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,280
Speaker 3: couldn't go on that on that field trip. And so

309
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,200
Speaker 3: we had we had to work really hard to like

310
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 3: practice so that he could go on that field trip.

311
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,720
Speaker 4: You've just reminded me we have, We've got six kids

312
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,079
Speaker 4: with time poll we just need stuff done. And while

313
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,400
Speaker 4: I think that we've got our parenting reasonably well dogged,

314
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,400
Speaker 4: and we certainly don't make any claims to paring perfection,

315
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 4: and our seven year old still doesn't know how to

316
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 4: tie up alysis.

317
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 1: Yes, and you've just.

318
00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 4: Reminded me that we've been buying Velcrow because it just

319
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 4: means that the morning they.

320
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 3: Slip on shoes velcrow. It makes it so much easier. Yeah,

321
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,120
Speaker 3: but think about it. I thought about it this way.

322
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 3: You know, the Velcrow shoes, the slip on shoes whatever,

323
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,280
Speaker 3: and then we're left with the lacest shoes is like

324
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 3: the sab of the leftovers no one can wear. But

325
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,480
Speaker 3: it was a little bit and this is this age

326
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 3: is me. But it was the reason my dad taught

327
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,400
Speaker 3: me how to drive a stick shift, right, because if

328
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 3: I'm ever in a situation where someone couldn't drive it,

329
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,160
Speaker 3: you know, I had to be able to drive that

330
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 3: car for a matter out of safety. If someone was

331
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,520
Speaker 3: drunk and they couldn't drive, I had to be able

332
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,520
Speaker 3: to take over. And my dad saw that as a

333
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,600
Speaker 3: real safety measure. And with the shoe thing, you know,

334
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,560
Speaker 3: there's gonna come a time when he's and and that

335
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,760
Speaker 3: was sort of the the realization for me is that,

336
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,360
Speaker 3: you know, I've been, you know, casting aspersions on all

337
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 3: these parents who are doing too much for their kids,

338
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 3: and here I am doing the exact same thing. I

339
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,160
Speaker 3: have no right to judge. And I think that's been

340
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,360
Speaker 3: my attitude as much as possible in my writing, which is,

341
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 3: I have no right to judge here. But here's what

342
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 3: I've done, and here's what I've learned from the research

343
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,880
Speaker 3: on you know, on engaging kids and their own learning

344
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,640
Speaker 3: and their and learning from their mistakes.

345
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,640
Speaker 4: Your dad and I would get on, will I'm teaching

346
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,600
Speaker 4: my daughters to drive a manual or a stick shift

347
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:33,000
Speaker 4: as well.

348
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:34,320
Speaker 1: We're up to the door a number three.

349
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:35,160
Speaker 2: Well, the poor man.

350
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,200
Speaker 3: The poor man had to listen to me grind the

351
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 3: gears and his beloved car, just you know, in order

352
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 3: to make my life safer. It was, I'm sure it

353
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 3: was terrible for you.

354
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 4: We went and bought a cheap clunker because we would

355
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,120
Speaker 4: just too scared to have them destroy our good car.

356
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,320
Speaker 4: Es we're talking about, and I think what you're really

357
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 4: emphasizing is this idea of when we let go. But

358
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,720
Speaker 4: not in a neglectful way when we get of course,

359
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,120
Speaker 4: but when we let go in an affirming way. What

360
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 4: we essentially say to our child is I believe in you.

361
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 4: I think that you're competent and capable, and I believe

362
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 4: that you can do this just fine without me having

363
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,520
Speaker 4: to do it all for you. Our time is up.

364
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 4: But this is a podcast for the time poor parent

365
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,040
Speaker 4: who just wants answers.

366
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:16,320
Speaker 1: Now.

367
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,440
Speaker 4: We would love to have you come back because there's

368
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,920
Speaker 4: been such a fun conversation already and really dive into

369
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 4: the process of what it is to let go as

370
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,800
Speaker 4: a parent, but in a way that helps children to

371
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,280
Speaker 4: develop that competence. Would you be happy to come and

372
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:30,920
Speaker 4: join us again and continue.

373
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,360
Speaker 3: This discussion aolutely, absolutely amazing.

374
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 4: Well, we'll talk to you again in about a week's

375
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 4: time about the Gift of Failure because the book by

376
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 4: Jessica lay New have Times best seller, The Gift of Failure,

377
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 4: How the Best Parents Learn to Let Go so their

378
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,160
Speaker 4: Children can Succeed, has got so much to offer. If

379
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 4: you've enjoyed the podcast, we would love it if you'd

380
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 4: leave a rating and review. Those ratings and reviews help

381
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 4: people to find the podcast and make their families Happier.

382
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,920
Speaker 4: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from

383
00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,920
Speaker 4: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and if

384
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 4: you'd like morfou about making your family happier, you can

385
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,200
Speaker 4: get it all at happy families dot com dot au