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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you ever watched WWF, the old

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Speaker 3: World Wrestling Federation with Hulkogan, and every now and again

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Speaker 3: the referees would go rogue and actually start wrestling the wrestlers,

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Speaker 3: and I kind of feel like a parents. We sometimes

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Speaker 3: end up in that situation.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Nelson. No, no, wait, give me my glove. Also, please please,

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Speaker 3: I can't live like this anymore.

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Speaker 2: What did I ever do to you?

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Speaker 1: Enough? Honor?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 3: Why why do you shut me out? Why do you

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Speaker 3: shut the world out? What are you so afraid? I

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Speaker 3: said enough? Siblings? Can't live with them, That's all I've

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Speaker 3: got to say, can't live with.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe you'd say that I can't live without them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're very kind. You've got good sisters.

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Speaker 2: I do have good sisters. Actually, there have been times,

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Speaker 2: there have been times where have been we challenge. I've

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Speaker 2: heard you say things about your sisters, but I can't

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Speaker 2: live without them. Even when I don't want them in

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Speaker 2: my life, I still can't live without them.

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Speaker 3: That's fair. Enough I've got I'm the eldest of six,

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Speaker 3: so I've got five siblings, and sibling relationships can be challenging,

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Speaker 3: but I feel the same way. I actually really love

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Speaker 3: my siblings and I'm grateful for them. But boy boy,

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Speaker 3: we've had some moments over the years. So today, by

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Speaker 3: the way, I'm justin You are Kylie, and we're the

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Speaker 3: parents of six kids, and I run a website called

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Speaker 3: happy Families dot com dot au, and we're talking about

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Speaker 3: fight club. Come on, when the kids are just at

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Speaker 3: each other.

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Speaker 2: It feels like that. It definitely feels like that sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Training it's exhausting and it's kind of you're like, if

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Speaker 3: you don't stop killing each other, I'm going to kill

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Speaker 3: you kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: It's we become the referees, don't we the countdowns.

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Speaker 3: On, kind of get involved ourselves, you know. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you ever watched WWF, the old World Wrestling

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Speaker 3: Federation with Hulkgan, and every now and again the referees

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Speaker 3: would go rogue and actually start wrestling the wrestlers, And

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Speaker 3: I kind of feel like, as parents, we sometimes end

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Speaker 3: up in that situation too often. Yes, So today we

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Speaker 3: are here to resolve your sibling rivalry dramas, and I

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Speaker 3: don't know how it's going to go because every now

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Speaker 3: and again I look at our kids and think, oh,

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Speaker 3: how did this happen? What did we do wrong? But

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Speaker 3: it got me thinking about sibling rivalry generally, and it

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Speaker 3: occurred to me that we kind of get cranky at

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Speaker 3: our underdeveloped, socially inapped children. I mean, let's face it,

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Speaker 3: they don't have the emotional skills, they don't have the

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Speaker 3: cognitive skills, they don't have the social skills. And we

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Speaker 3: get really cranky at our three year old when they're

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Speaker 3: not getting along with their eighteen month old sistra aw brother.

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Speaker 3: We get really cranky at our teenager who's having this

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Speaker 3: hormone and brain explosion and developing in all kinds of

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Speaker 3: crazy ways that they're not ready for, and they're getting

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Speaker 3: cranky at their eleven year old or their eight year

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Speaker 3: old sister aw brother. And I thought it's kind of

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Speaker 3: unfair really that we expect that our kids are just

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Speaker 3: going to get along just because they're siblings.

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Speaker 2: Do you and I get along all the time?

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Speaker 3: This is a hard question to answer on a podcast. Well,

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Speaker 3: so this is the thing we have our moment with

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Speaker 3: our own siblings. How old were you, honest question, How

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Speaker 3: old were you when you started to genuinely like and

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Speaker 3: get along with consistently your siblings.

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Speaker 2: I was about thirteen or come on, no, I was.

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Speaker 2: I was about thirteen, and my youngest is underneath me.

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Speaker 2: She became literally my best friend.

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Speaker 3: Okay, But in spite of the fact that she literally

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Speaker 3: became your best friend over the last couple of decades,

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Speaker 3: you've had plenty of upsets.

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Speaker 2: Of course. But by the time I was about thirteen,

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Speaker 2: because I was the oldest too, and so they looked

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Speaker 2: up to me, and you know that in and of

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Speaker 2: itself was a little bit tricky because it was just like,

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Speaker 2: just be your own person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. So I'm the oldest of six and my

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Speaker 3: family's recently gone through a massive sibling rift, and it's

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Speaker 3: gone for a couple of years, and fortunately is beginning

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Speaker 3: to heal. And I'm so grateful. It's caused so much

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Speaker 3: pain and so much distress, and yet here we are

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Speaker 3: as adults in our thirties and forties and getting dangerously

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Speaker 3: close to fifties, and as adults, we're still having sibling issues.

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Speaker 3: And I watched my parents and the heartache that they

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Speaker 3: and so again, I kind of I look at this situation.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, we're grown ups, grown up siblings, and we

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Speaker 3: still have our moments. It's kind of unfair that we

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Speaker 3: expect that our kids are just going to get along well.

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Speaker 2: Rivalry is part of life, right, whether it be siblings

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Speaker 2: or marriage or coworkers. There is tension all the time

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Speaker 2: in our relationships.

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Speaker 3: I totally agree. And I want to go back to

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Speaker 3: that point that you've just made about marriage. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you kind of raised it at the start of our

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Speaker 3: conversation and you've just brought it up again, and it's

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Speaker 3: worth pausing on because whether you're in a long term

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Speaker 3: partnership or you're in a marriage, what you have essentially

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Speaker 3: done is you've said to your partner, your husband, wife, spouse,

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Speaker 3: whoever it is, I am committed to you.

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Speaker 2: I choose you, like I literally I choose you. As

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Speaker 2: a sibling, do you get a choice? And who your

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Speaker 2: brother or your sister is? We just don't. And yet

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Speaker 2: as partners we literally say I choose you.

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Speaker 3: And then we still have fights, we still have conflict

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Speaker 3: and challenge and disagreement. Let's face it, we love each

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Speaker 3: other like crazy, just like siblings actually do, deep down

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Speaker 3: love each other like crazy. But some times you did

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Speaker 3: get cranky at me just the other night because I

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Speaker 3: stayed out talking to a friend for an hour in

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Speaker 3: the driveway when you were in the bedroom and you

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Speaker 3: didn't want to talk to me for a day or

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Speaker 3: so after that. Yep, I've just brought it back up again.

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Speaker 3: I've created the conflict again.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, you know it's interesting. I remember a week

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Speaker 2: before we got married. We've been dating for about eleven months. Yes,

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Speaker 2: we had not had a single disagreement.

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Speaker 3: We had the most wonderful courtship, so much fun.

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Speaker 2: But the week before the wedding, my mom witnessed you

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Speaker 2: and your mom having a fight. You were having an argument.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say we had a disagreement. I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to say it was a fight.

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Speaker 2: Well, in our household, the way we have a fight

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Speaker 2: is silence. Yeah, and nobody talks. Everybody's very very withdrawn,

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Speaker 2: and we just you just know that you're in trouble,

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Speaker 2: but nobody's willing to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: Not how the causes do it in.

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Speaker 2: Your household, it is explosive, dynamic, passionate words fly.

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Speaker 3: Were just expressing from the beds. We were just saying,

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Speaker 3: I feel this way about things.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of expression going on, yes, And my

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Speaker 2: mum walked into that. She saw you and your mum

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Speaker 2: having quite heated conversation about something that you obviously were

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Speaker 2: very passionate about in the moment. And so that night

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Speaker 2: we had a family meeting called that involved you and

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Speaker 2: me and our parents, and it was discussed whether or

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Speaker 2: not it was actually wise that you and I should

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Speaker 2: get married.

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Speaker 3: Oh though, tears that went on till like one in

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Speaker 3: the morning.

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Speaker 2: It was a long night and it was a very

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Speaker 2: very painful night. But both your mom and my mom

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Speaker 2: were so scared that if you could fight with your mum,

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Speaker 2: then obviously you were going to have a fight with me,

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Speaker 2: and no one wanted to put me through that. And

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Speaker 2: you and I sat there and we kind of we

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Speaker 2: both were boiling our eyes at it was. It was

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Speaker 2: actually quite an emotional moment, and now it seems like

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Speaker 2: it's a very funny experience, but there was just so

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Speaker 2: much concern about if there was going to be contention,

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Speaker 2: was this the right thing for us to do?

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Speaker 3: Should we get married, because if we're going to fight,

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Speaker 3: that would be really bad and It wasn't until about

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Speaker 3: midnight or one o'clock that our dads.

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Speaker 2: A doubt finally said something, finally said something and said,

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Speaker 2: if somebody had said that to us twenty odd years ago.

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Speaker 3: Would we have ever gotten married? He would never have

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Speaker 3: gotten married. So there are actually, scientifically, there are some

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Speaker 3: benefits to sibling rivalry, and I think that it's worth

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Speaker 3: spending just a moment on that before we break and

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Speaker 3: talk about how we can help our kids to because

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Speaker 3: we still want our kids to manage their rivalry well

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Speaker 3: and to fight less. Like, just because there are benefits

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean that we want them to be doing it

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Speaker 3: benefits well.

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Speaker 2: It's an opportunity for us to learn how communication works,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we do it in a safe environment.

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Speaker 2: These are the people that we love.

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Speaker 3: It's critical, though, that we highlight that it's an opportunity.

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Speaker 3: As parents. We've got a responsibility to help our children

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Speaker 3: to learn how to manage these conflicts effectively. It's an

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Speaker 3: opportuny to learn how to manage conflict, not to how

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Speaker 3: to fight, and research tells us pretty clearly that effective

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Speaker 3: conflict resolution is most likely villained at home solong as parents.

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Speaker 2: Know how to do it That's the tricky part, though,

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Speaker 2: isn't it like are we equipped as parents to know

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Speaker 2: how to which.

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Speaker 3: Means that what we're really focusing on here is sibling

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Speaker 3: rivalry is an opportunity for empathy, for compassion, for understanding others' needs,

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Speaker 3: and recognizing that we are not the center of the universe.

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Speaker 3: I'm just thinking about the things kids fight about.

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Speaker 2: You breathed my air. She looked at me.

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Speaker 3: She's in my room, she's touching my stuff, and.

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Speaker 2: As they get older, she's wearing my clothes.

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Speaker 3: Well, even when they're younger. She touched the button on

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Speaker 3: the elevator. I wanted to push the button on the elevator.

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Speaker 3: She pushed the fight to brush.

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Speaker 2: I didn't leave that towel.

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Speaker 3: Use each other's toothbrushes. It's disgusting. Anyway, We're going to

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Speaker 3: come back after the break and talk about even though

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Speaker 3: it's normal that kids fight, and there can even be

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Speaker 3: some healthy outcomes to it if it's dealt with well,

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Speaker 3: all about what we can do when the kids are

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Speaker 3: fighting to make things better.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 2: a happy family doesn't just happen details at happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot au. It's the Happy Families podcast, the

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Speaker 2: podcast for the time poor parent who just wants answers now.

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Speaker 2: And today we are talking about fight club and we

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Speaker 2: are the referees.

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Speaker 3: Did you know research shows that kids fight up to

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Speaker 3: eight times per hour.

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Speaker 2: It feels like that. It probably feels like more, especially

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Speaker 2: when they're six in the house.

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Speaker 3: But you know what, I this is a really important conversation.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about whether or not we should be intervening

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Speaker 3: and how we can manage the sibling rivalry. And I

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Speaker 3: was thinking, there is no child that is so obnoxiously

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Speaker 3: smug as the child who's just managed to get their

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Speaker 3: sibling in trouble for something, and they're sitting there being

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Speaker 3: so well behaved while their siblings getting torn apart by

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Speaker 3: parents who are like, why are you doing this to

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Speaker 3: your sibling? You know that smug look that they've gone

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Speaker 3: on their face, like you in travel, Like are you

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Speaker 3: in trouble? So how do we manage it? What are

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Speaker 3: the best things to do?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: I'm obviously the guy with the PhD in psychology, but

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Speaker 3: you've raised six kids and you've done a lot of

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Speaker 3: it while I've been traveling around the country helping other

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Speaker 3: people make their families happier. So my guess is that

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Speaker 3: you've experienced plenty of opportunities to intervene and involve yourself

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Speaker 3: in siblings squabbles. What are you reckon? Your best couple

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Speaker 3: of tips are, and then I'll dive into some of

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Speaker 3: the science.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I think that I have

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Speaker 2: experienced more than anything else is jumping in, catching the

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Speaker 2: emotion of the moment and thinking that I know exactly

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Speaker 2: what's happened, only to find out that the child I'm

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Speaker 2: ripping into is actually the victim and not the problem.

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Speaker 2: So often we kind of we just we think we

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Speaker 2: see it, we think we know what's happened, and unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: behind our back, child A has gone off and done something,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, we've actually created a bigger

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Speaker 2: problem as a result. So one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I think so important with this is just being able

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Speaker 2: to take a step back, not catching the emotion of

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Speaker 2: the moment, and really understanding what's happening. That's an opportunity

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Speaker 2: for us to spend time one on one to help

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Speaker 2: them have perspective on what's actually taken place.

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Speaker 3: So what you're really talking about is getting emotion is

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Speaker 3: calm and then providing an opportunity for empathy. What's going

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Speaker 3: on for you, what's going on in the family, what's

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Speaker 3: going on for your sibling, how's everyone feeling right now,

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Speaker 3: and then starting to problem solve together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, because you know, when we started this conversation,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about our own siblings, and so often we've

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Speaker 2: got big emotions going on inside ours and our siblings

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Speaker 2: have big emotions going on inside them. Is sometimes it

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Speaker 2: actually has nothing to do with each other. Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: we've come together, and because of the emotions and the

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Speaker 2: burdens and the things that we're carrying in our own lives,

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Speaker 2: the way we interact with each other creates another problem

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Speaker 2: that was not even a problem in the beginning. And

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Speaker 2: it's the same for our kids. Our kids come home,

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Speaker 2: they've had a really really hard day, and the sibling

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Speaker 2: looks at them the wrong way, and because they're feeling

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Speaker 2: low emotional, you know.

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Speaker 3: And they don't have the social and emotional regulation skills.

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Speaker 2: They blow up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But if we could just recognize that they're carrying a

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Speaker 2: burden and help our children to recognize that they're carrying

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Speaker 2: a burden? What does it feel like when you you

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Speaker 2: know this happens, or could you imagine being that person?

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Speaker 2: Then all of a sudden we have an ability to empathize.

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Speaker 3: So I've got a few ideas as well that i'd

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Speaker 3: love to throw out because I'm thinking. Kids fight about

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Speaker 3: stuff all the time. They fight about who's going to

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Speaker 3: be in the front seat they you know, in my.

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Speaker 2: Day it was who's going to sit in the back seat?

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Speaker 3: Right? They fight over injustice, it's not fair. Have you

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Speaker 3: noticed how upset they get about who got the bigger

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Speaker 3: half of the muffin that you've chopped in half? Or

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Speaker 3: the donut?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love our I love our rule on that one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah you cut it, they choose, that's right. So I

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Speaker 3: do this one all the time. One of the kids

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Speaker 3: is like, oh, cut the donut. I'll cut the cake

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, that's fine, you cut it in half.

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Speaker 3: And the other one gets to choose which half they

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Speaker 3: want and they're like, oh, I can make on it.

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Speaker 2: But then you watch the precision to the millimeters.

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Speaker 3: They're so careful about it. I reckon. There's a handful

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Speaker 3: of things to remember when it comes to what the

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Speaker 3: science says, because I mean, I just think about how

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Speaker 3: it feels to be a child. It's so hard. You're

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Speaker 3: fighting over property, you're fighting over territory, you're fighting over

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Speaker 3: I want my parents to be on my side and

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Speaker 3: see things from my perspective. You're fighting over the fact

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Speaker 3: that you just want to be amused. Like sometimes kids

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Speaker 3: just fight because they're bored. I used to think to

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Speaker 3: myself when the kids would say, Hey, let's play tip,

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Speaker 3: let's play tag, And it's like, what you've just done

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Speaker 3: is you've said you want to take a job and

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Speaker 3: finish it with a fight.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm listening to you say all of these things,

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Speaker 2: and what this really boils down to is that our

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Speaker 2: kids don't feel like they have a lot of control, yeah,

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Speaker 2: in their lives, like they don't have the autonomy to

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Speaker 2: make choices, and they want.

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Speaker 3: More connection as well. Yeah. So the science tells us

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Speaker 3: that it really depends when it comes to intervening on

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Speaker 3: their age and the way they intervene. So when it

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Speaker 3: comes to age, research shows that with the younger kids,

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Speaker 3: we need to intervene faster, sooner. We need to get

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Speaker 3: in there and sort of separate the kids. And then

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Speaker 3: I would usually actually say, don't try to teach them lessons,

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Speaker 3: just distract them, because with little kids, and I'm talking

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Speaker 3: about kids under about the age of three or four,

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Speaker 3: they're not going to respond to a lecture. They just

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Speaker 3: need to be distracted, separate them, give them something else

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Speaker 3: to do. They'll figure it out. When the children get older.

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Speaker 3: Research tells us that if we can help them to

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Speaker 3: have shorter disputes, they have warmer relationships. The longer the

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Speaker 3: dispute goes, the colder the relationship. And that's best evidence

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Speaker 3: by adult siblings who have disputes. Those disputes, Pride gets

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Speaker 3: in the way, people stop talking, the dispute goes on

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Speaker 3: for longer and longer, the air becomes so frigid that

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Speaker 3: they don't know how to communicate anymore.

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Speaker 2: And then years go by and it's harder and harder

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Speaker 2: step back into positive relationship.

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Speaker 3: Sureter disputes, warmer relationships. And so what that means that

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Speaker 3: as parents, just like you've said, you intervene, but you

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Speaker 3: don't intervene unless, especially as they get old like ten plus,

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Speaker 3: you don't intervene unless it looks like someone's going to

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Speaker 3: get hurt. You might walk in and the intervention goes

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Speaker 3: like this, You guys seem to be having a tough time.

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Speaker 3: What can I do to help? And maybe you distract them,

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Speaker 3: maybe you invite reflection. You certainly want to encourage empathy,

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Speaker 3: but all you're going to do is describe and invite

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Speaker 3: them to accept your help if you need it. If

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Speaker 3: they accept your help, then you say, well, I don't

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Speaker 3: want to start getting into a turn taking who did

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Speaker 3: what to who? That's going to be frustrating. Why don't

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Speaker 3: we just talk about how everyone's feeling right now? And

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Speaker 3: I know that sounds a bit soft and cuddly, like

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Speaker 3: a little bit MOLDI coddling sort of thing, but that

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Speaker 3: seems to work best. How's everyone feeling? How did they

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Speaker 3: feel when you did that? How do you feel when

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Speaker 3: they did that? Okay, so we can see how this

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Speaker 3: we've created this in each other. What can we do

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Speaker 3: about it? How can I help? That seems to be

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Speaker 3: a nice, calm composed way to deal with it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the reality is when we're in that

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Speaker 2: heated moment, we're not actually thinking about how the other

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Speaker 2: person's feeling. No, when we're thinking about what we're feeling.

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Speaker 3: Because high emotions, low intelligence, that's right.

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Speaker 2: But as soon as we start to recognize that my

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Speaker 2: actions have actually caused pain times than not, we're able

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Speaker 2: to take a step back and go, that's that's not

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Speaker 2: my intention. I just want my bag, or you know,

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Speaker 2: I just want my room back, I.

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Speaker 3: Want my toothbrush, stop using my booth brush.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever it is. We're not we're not We're not

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Speaker 2: horrible people. More times than not, we have no desire

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Speaker 2: to be to hurt people. But in that moment, that's

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Speaker 2: all we can see. We can just see we want

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Speaker 2: this outcome and we'll go to whatever lengths to get it.

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Speaker 3: And you know what happens when when the kids are fighting,

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Speaker 3: whether you intervene or not, they'll be fighting. It'll be ferocious,

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Speaker 3: it'll be vicious, it'll be all on, and sixty seconds later,

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Speaker 3: next minute, their best is again. Yes, it's like, what

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Speaker 3: is your problem? Like if someone spoke to me like,

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Speaker 3: but I wouldn't talk that for our week and they

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Speaker 3: become best friends.

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Speaker 2: But aren't they awesome like that? They just have such

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Speaker 2: forgiving hearts.

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Speaker 3: They are, So that'll take home message when it comes

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Speaker 3: to sibling rivalry number one, It happens, and it's not

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Speaker 3: always bad Number two.

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Speaker 2: It's important that we as the parents don't catch the

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Speaker 2: emotions of the rivalry the incident, and that we're able

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Speaker 2: to help our childre and take a little step back

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Speaker 2: and do some perspective taking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, which kind of ties into my third

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Speaker 3: take home message, And we haven't said it explicitly, but

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Speaker 3: it's interwoven through everything that we've said today, and that

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Speaker 3: is we've got to be an example. We've got to

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Speaker 3: be a model. We've got to model the effective way

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Speaker 3: to navigate disagreement and tension so that the children are

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Speaker 3: learning that it's not about blowing up. It's not about

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Speaker 3: name calling, it's not about hitting, it's not about doing

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Speaker 3: any of the stuff that drives us mad. It's about saying, huh,

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Speaker 3: we seem to disagree. Let's work this out together in

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Speaker 3: a calm and rational way.

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Speaker 2: So tonight you'll come to bed instead of staying.

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Speaker 3: No friends, no friends coming over tonight, No one in

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Speaker 3: the driveway. I'm all yours. No more conflict about that one.

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Speaker 2: Hey.

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Speaker 3: We really hope that you enjoyed the podcast. Thanks so

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Speaker 3: much for listening, and we hope that it helps make

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Speaker 3: your family happier. This is one I reckon that we'll

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Speaker 3: hopefully make a really big difference for improving relationships at home.

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Speaker 3: If you do enjoy the podcast, those ratings and reviews

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Speaker 3: that you leave at Apple Podcasts make all the difference

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Speaker 3: for other people being able to find out about the podcast,

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Speaker 3: and we just are so grateful that so many people

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Speaker 3: are getting great value out of the things that we're sharing.

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Speaker 3: As always, we thank Justin Ruland from Bridge Media, our producer,

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Speaker 3: and a special thank you to Craig Bruce, our executive producer,

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Speaker 3: for the fabulous name of today's episode and for his

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Speaker 3: ongoing inspiration. If you'd like more info about making your

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Speaker 3: family happier, you can get it all on our Facebook

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Speaker 3: page for free doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families, or visit

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Speaker 3: my website happyfamilies dot com. Got a