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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now. And one

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Speaker 1: thing that I would say is a really good guideline

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Speaker 1: that people forget is to listen to what your child

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Speaker 1: is interested in talking about and what they're interested in.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Today. This is doctor Justin Colson and the author of

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Speaker 2: six books about making families happy. And I'm here with

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Speaker 2: my wife and co host my podcast partner, missus Happy

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Speaker 2: Family's kye.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: Wednesday is a day that we usually will interview somebody,

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Speaker 3: somebody who's done particularly awesome things in relation to parenting

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Speaker 3: or children. And today we're actually going to take a

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Speaker 3: deep dive into the psychology of education with Susan Engel

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Speaker 3: and Justin. I know you're such a big fan of

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Speaker 3: Susan's work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I read her book while ago. Susan is a

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Speaker 2: psychology and education like her and researcher, and she wrote

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Speaker 2: a book called The Hungry Mind. It's about how we

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Speaker 2: can help our kids to be curious.

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Speaker 3: Susan, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Seeing this is

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Speaker 3: a show all about families. We'd love to know a

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Speaker 3: little bit about yours.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I'm not sure if you're asking about the

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Speaker 1: family I grew up in or the family that I raised.

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Speaker 1: As I talk about in my book The Hungry Mind,

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Speaker 1: I grew up on a farm on the eastern end

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Speaker 1: of Long Island in New York State, and I had

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Speaker 1: a lot of chance to roam around to explore. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it's because of my age. At that time, children were

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Speaker 1: encouraged to go out on their own and we were

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Speaker 1: given a lot of room to be bored, but also

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Speaker 1: to explore the world around us. Yeah, so I had

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Speaker 1: a pretty great childhood.

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Speaker 2: It does kind of sound idyllic. I just spoke recently

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Speaker 2: with Lenoskanazi, who runs let grow dot org and you know,

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Speaker 2: free range kids, and just talked about the difference between

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Speaker 2: what it was for you to grow up with this

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Speaker 2: let's just roam and maybe be a little bit bored

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Speaker 2: and discover things for ourselves, versus the constant pressure we've

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Speaker 2: got to go from here to there to there to there,

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Speaker 2: and children's lives being so more at a totally different world.

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Speaker 1: It is a different world. That said, I now live

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Speaker 1: in a different rural area in southwestern Massachusetts and my

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Speaker 1: husband and I raised three sons, and because of where

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Speaker 1: we lived or live, our kids too had a lot

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Speaker 1: of roaming around and free time. They didn't have the

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Speaker 1: after school activities that other people with my kind of

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Speaker 1: job and my kind of life had At the time,

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Speaker 1: they came home and we either lay around and ate

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Speaker 1: cannon watch TV, or they went outside and played and

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Speaker 1: explored in the woods and watched the animals and got

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Speaker 1: into trouble with one another. So actually, my kids, the

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Speaker 1: whole generation younger, had a fairly similar childhood.

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Speaker 2: Called me that often come to the mind of parents

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Speaker 2: when they hear about children who aren't in scheduled appointments.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're not going to swimming lessons, and they're

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Speaker 2: not going to piano lessons. They're not involved in sport

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Speaker 2: or music or art or drama or any of those

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Speaker 2: things that kids have to be doing after school. In

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty, a lot of parents will say, but my

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Speaker 2: children are missing out on opportunities. How do you respond

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Speaker 2: to that? And this isn't a critique of your parenting,

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Speaker 2: It's more a question of parents are trying to give

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Speaker 2: their kids not only opportunity. It's not necessarily about moving

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Speaker 2: them forward so they can get into university or anything

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Speaker 2: like that. But more we know that these things are

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Speaker 2: good for kids, right. It's good for social, it's good

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Speaker 2: for physical, it's good for just learning and adapting and

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Speaker 2: developing confidence and skill. How to parents do you think

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Speaker 2: balance this tension between letting the kids just have their

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Speaker 2: childhood and having these structured activities that are research shows

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Speaker 2: really good for them.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have a complicated answer. First of all, the

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Speaker 1: question is opportunity for what. So you could want your

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Speaker 1: child to have opportunities that will get them ahead in

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Speaker 1: some external sense, like get them into the more challenging

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Speaker 1: school or the more selective school, or get them to

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Speaker 1: go to university, or in the long run, get them

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Speaker 1: the better job I suppose. Or you could think about

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Speaker 1: opportunity as the opportunity to develop their thinking. And I

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Speaker 1: think one of the mistakes that people make everywhere, especially

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Speaker 1: now in twenty twenty, is the idea that if your

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Speaker 1: child isn't doing something that an adult structured for them,

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Speaker 1: they're not progressing, they're not enriching their minds.

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Speaker 2: They're not maximizing their live.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a horrible term, actually maximizing their life, because

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Speaker 1: it's spontaneously maximize their lives on their own. And there

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Speaker 1: are ways in which adults can and should be involved

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Speaker 1: and guide their children and help their children have a

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Speaker 1: life and a rich mental life, But giving them a

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Speaker 1: lot of overly structured activities is not the best way

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Speaker 1: to do it. So that's one thing I would say.

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Speaker 1: And I want to comment on your comment about the

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Speaker 1: research shows that all those after school activities are great

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Speaker 1: for them. Well, yes and no. It's clear that children

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Speaker 1: whose parents make an effort to show them interesting things,

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Speaker 1: or take them interesting places, or have interesting conversations with

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Speaker 1: them something I write a lot about, or share experiences

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Speaker 1: with them, those children really benefit. That's true. They do

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Speaker 1: better in school, they have more developed interests, they're more

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Speaker 1: able to achieve as they move on in their lives.

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Speaker 1: But that's not the same as signing them up for

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Speaker 1: ten different activities. So it all depends on what you

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Speaker 1: think of as an opportunity.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcasts.

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Speaker 3: I'm always looking for new ways to stay connected with

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Speaker 3: my children while giving them the opportunity to have the

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Speaker 3: same level of freedom I enjoyed when I was their age.

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Speaker 2: Ah, those were the days. The space Talk Adventurer watch

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Speaker 2: has given our daughter the freedom that she craves, while

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Speaker 2: also giving us the peace of mind of knowing where

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Speaker 2: she is via GPS location updates, and we can also

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Speaker 2: easily check in with her via a phone call or

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Speaker 2: a text message to her watch.

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Speaker 3: Space Talk watches don't have access to social media apps

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Speaker 3: or any other Internet services like mobile phones do, so

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Speaker 3: you can feel good that you're providing them with a

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Speaker 3: safe and secure device that lets kids be kids in

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Speaker 3: a modern world.

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Speaker 2: And that's why we love it. Available at major retailers

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Speaker 2: and online at space talk watch dot com.

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Speaker 3: In your book at the Hungry Mind, you talk about how,

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Speaker 3: in many cases, the education system can rob our children

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Speaker 3: of curiosity. But before we talk about the book, wonder

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Speaker 3: were you a curious student? Did you enjoy school?

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Speaker 1: You know, I loved school and I was very lucky.

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Speaker 1: But I have a new book coming out called The

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Speaker 1: Intellectual Lives of Children, and I start with an experience

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Speaker 1: from I often start with experiences from my own childhood.

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Speaker 1: But I start with an experience from my own childhood,

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Speaker 1: and it's about my mother's very spontaneous, natural, unstudied ability

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Speaker 1: to encourage me to feed my interests and to pursue

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Speaker 1: my interests, and how powerful that was in my life.

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Speaker 1: So I love school from the beginning. A part of

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Speaker 1: it is for reasons that any parent listening to your

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Speaker 1: program will be familiar with. If it's easy for you

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Speaker 1: to learn and if you read easily, two things that

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Speaker 1: were true of me, it certainly makes school a lot

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Speaker 1: nicer and more fun. So I had that going for me,

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Speaker 1: and anybody who has more than one child knows what

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about. One kid just finds it kind of easy.

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Speaker 1: They pick up reading on their own. They can do

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Speaker 1: the things that are asked of them, so school it

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Speaker 1: can be a pleasure for them. For a kid who's

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Speaker 1: extremely bright and extremely alive mentally, but who has some

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Speaker 1: trouble like learning to read or getting along in school,

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Speaker 1: that's not always the case. But for me, school was

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Speaker 1: easy and fun and I loved it. I loved learning

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Speaker 1: new things. I loved intellectual challenges, So that must be

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Speaker 1: part of why I'm interested in studying that as a

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Speaker 1: grown up, that was something that was very important in

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Speaker 1: my life.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned that your mom somehow managed to foster that

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Speaker 2: love of learning that you had. In your book, you

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Speaker 2: say that by the time children are three, Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: ways in which their parents have talked to them have

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Speaker 2: already shaped their intellectual futures. Now that's a big call.

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Speaker 2: That's a really significant statement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's a lot of evidence to support that,

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Speaker 1: showing that children who hear a lot of talk at home,

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Speaker 1: and by a lot of talk, I don't just mean

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Speaker 1: a lot of words, although that's very important. So the

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Speaker 1: number of words a child hears on a daily basis

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Speaker 1: in the first three years turns out to be incredibly

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Speaker 1: predictive of how they will do at school and how

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Speaker 1: easily they will learn. But there's more to it than that.

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Speaker 1: The research shows that when children only hear language that

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Speaker 1: is directed at managing them, you know, sit down, eat that,

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Speaker 1: don't touch that, it's less it's less of a benefit

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Speaker 1: for them, even if they hear a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: Then parents who actually just converse with their children and

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Speaker 1: converse around their children, whether it's talking about what they

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Speaker 1: see out the bus window or what they see on

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Speaker 1: their way to daycare, or whether they talk about what

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Speaker 1: the child is doing at that moment. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that I was thinking about earlier today was how

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Speaker 1: important it is for grown ups, teachers, but also parents,

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Speaker 1: very much so, to genuinely enjoy those conversations, not to

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Speaker 1: make them a project, but just to enjoy the fact

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Speaker 1: that you have a kid who's fun to talk to.

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Speaker 1: And again, the research shows that parents who treat their children,

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Speaker 1: who feel that their children are good conversational partners and

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Speaker 1: really interact with them in that natural, fun spontaneous way,

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Speaker 1: they they do more of the things just naturally. You

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Speaker 1: don't need any training, you don't need to read a

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Speaker 1: book about it. You just need to allow yourself to

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Speaker 1: like talking with your kid. And people who do that

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Speaker 1: their children benefit from it because they hear a lot

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Speaker 1: more of the language that will help them develop intellectually

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Speaker 1: as they get older.

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Speaker 2: This may seem like a silly question, but I know

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Speaker 2: that there are some people who are going to hear

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Speaker 2: what you've just said just now and say, but what

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Speaker 2: do I talk to my kids about? Like, my kids

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Speaker 2: don't say anything back to me, and sometimes my mind

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Speaker 2: is in so many other places. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: to talk to them about. How do you respond to that?

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Speaker 2: What kind of tips or gods would you offer to

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Speaker 2: a parent who's really genuinely wanting to talk more to

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Speaker 2: the child about other stuff other than correction and direction,

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Speaker 2: but just isn't quite sure what to say.

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, it's totally understandable that a parent

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Speaker 1: would feel that way, and no parent who has a

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Speaker 1: busy life, and what parent doesn't have a busy life.

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Speaker 1: No parent can be chatting to their child all the time.

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Speaker 1: And one of the problems with modern day kind of

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Speaker 1: these high expectations about parenting is the sense that you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to be this model parent all the time. No

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Speaker 1: one is. As I said, I think I was a

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Speaker 1: pretty good mom and I have three great kids. But

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Speaker 1: when they were little, I was working like a dog,

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Speaker 1: and I had a very long commute, and I had

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Speaker 1: three kids, and some of the time, as I said before,

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Speaker 1: we were just watching TV together or line around eating cookies.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can't tell you all the lazy, silly

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Speaker 1: things we did together or not together, be on the

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Speaker 1: phone or on my computer, or rushing to make dinner

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Speaker 1: and they were doing something else. So this does The

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Speaker 1: advice I'm giving isn't that parents have to be doing

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Speaker 1: this all the time, but maybe notice whether at least

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Speaker 1: once a day you have an exchange with your child

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Speaker 1: that's fun and meaningful. And if you really can't, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'd be really shocked to hear any parent who has

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Speaker 1: a fairly good relationship with their kid, and by that

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Speaker 1: they're fairly comfortable as moms and dads. I'd be shocked

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Speaker 1: to find out there's nothing that they like to talk about.

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Speaker 1: It could be what happened that day. It could be

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Speaker 1: the disgusting, you know, pizza they bought by accident. It

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Speaker 1: could be the scab on their knee. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be fancy. It just has to be

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Speaker 1: something that interests both people. And one thing that I

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Speaker 1: would say is a really good guideline that people forget,

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Speaker 1: and you've already mentioned in your question to me, is

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Speaker 1: to listen to what your child is interested in talking about,

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Speaker 1: and what they're interested in. What do they play with,

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Speaker 1: what do they look at, what do they pay attention to,

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Speaker 1: and ask them about it. It's fine just to ask

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Speaker 1: your kid a few questions and then just to tell

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Speaker 1: them what you really think or feel to be totally

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Speaker 1: genuine in your interactions.

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Speaker 2: Well, I hope you've enjoyed our chat with Susan Engel.

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Speaker 2: She is an education and psychology researcher as well as

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Speaker 2: being the author of a fabulous book, The Hungry Mind.

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Speaker 2: If you do enjoy the podcast, we'd love it if

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Speaker 2: you could jump onto Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

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Speaker 2: your podcasts and leave a rating and review that helps

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Speaker 2: other people to discover the podcast to make their families happy.

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Speaker 2: And we've got a whole lot of resources to make

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Speaker 2: your family happy as well. It's happy families dot com

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Speaker 2: dot Au. That's where you find out about the Happy

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Speaker 2: Families memberships. For as little as twelve dollars a month,

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Speaker 2: you can have a parenting expert literally in your pocket.

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Speaker 2: That's me Happy families dot com dot Au. Check out

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Speaker 2: the membership there and all the other resources. A big

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Speaker 2: thank you to Justin Rulan from Bridge Media for producing

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Speaker 2: the podcast and making it sound fabulous Soul and Craig Bruce,

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Speaker 2: our executive producer, thanks for all the effort and ideas.

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Speaker 2: More information is available at happy families dot com dot Au.

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Speaker 2: We'll see tomorrow