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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers.

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Speaker 1: Now a quick content warning before we start today's podcast.

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Speaker 1: Some of the material in today's podcast may not be

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Speaker 1: suitable for younger listeners. While not explicit, we will be

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Speaker 1: talking about some particularly challenging things. Therefore, this is your warning.

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Speaker 1: Here's a heads up for what we were discussing. Number one,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the increasing levels that we

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Speaker 1: seem to be seeing of bullying, particularly the kind of

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Speaker 1: bullying and catfishing and online issues that have led to

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Speaker 1: the untimely and completely avoidable depths of far too many

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Speaker 1: teenagers in Australia this year. Additionally, we'll be talking about

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Speaker 1: sextortion and what's going on online with teenage boys. My

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Speaker 1: guest today on the podcast is Julie In mngrant, Australia's

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Speaker 1: E Safety Commissioner. In her role as E Safety Commissioner,

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Speaker 1: Julie in mcgrand is responsible for ensuring ring that all Australians,

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Speaker 1: especially our kids, have safer and more positive experiences online.

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Speaker 1: Australia is the only nation in the world to have

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Speaker 1: a government agency that is dedicated to online safety. As

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Speaker 1: far as I'm aware, Julie has created a pioneering, innovative

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Speaker 1: and citizen focused office, making an impact both here at

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Speaker 1: home and globally. She's been a passionate advocate of promoting

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Speaker 1: technology for good and has been working at the intersection

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Speaker 1: of tech and social policy for more than twenty five years.

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Speaker 1: She's been dedicated to combating all forms of child sexual

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Speaker 1: exploitation online cyber abuse, and has worked tirelessly to promote

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Speaker 1: and protect the voices of women, children, and vulnerable communities

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Speaker 1: online and more recently, young men as well. Julie Inman Grant.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 2: Let's just keep trying to make those families happier.

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Speaker 1: Julie at school, Holidays around the corner for pretty much

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Speaker 1: everyone in the country, and kids are invariably going to

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Speaker 1: end up on screens a little bit more at this

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Speaker 1: time of the year than they would at any other

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Speaker 1: time of the year, in spite of the warm weather

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Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing, just because well they're

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Speaker 1: not at school. There are a couple of things that

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Speaker 1: have really been on my mind a lot as I've

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Speaker 1: watched the way screens continue to inhabit our kids' lives.

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Speaker 1: In the last couple of months, there have been several

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Speaker 1: suicides of young children twelve, fourteen, sixteen years of age,

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Speaker 1: primarily related to bullying, cyber bullying, catfishing, all sorts of

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Speaker 1: things happening online. I wonder if you can just talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about the role of the Safety Commissioner

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Speaker 1: and the resources that are available on how parents are

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Speaker 1: supposed to respond when their kids are being bullied online

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Speaker 1: and they say, we've read about it in the paper.

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Speaker 1: Allegedly the families have gone to the schools, they've said,

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Speaker 1: we've got a problem here, and for whatever reason, the

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Speaker 1: schools are not able to deal with it. The problem

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Speaker 1: isn't going away, and in too many cases we've seen

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Speaker 1: the loss of life. How do we work through this

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Speaker 1: and what role can you play?

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Speaker 2: Listen, The loss of life like this, particularly of children

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Speaker 2: so young, is absolutely devastating, But as you now as

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Speaker 2: a trained psychologist, there is always a lot to it.

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Speaker 2: It's usually not one factor, but there's no question that

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Speaker 2: when you may have underlying issues and there's face to

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Speaker 2: face bullying, if there's cyberbullying on top of that, that's

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Speaker 2: a hugely compounding factor. And I think that's what makes

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Speaker 2: cyberbulling so insidious. It's pervasive and invasive. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: not just leaving the bullying behind at the school gates.

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Speaker 2: It's following these children in their supercomputers in their pockets

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Speaker 2: into their homes and depending on the rules that you

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Speaker 2: have in the household, some kids are taking devices into

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Speaker 2: their rooms and maybe on all night and be exposed

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Speaker 2: to a constant barrage of bullying. So we've seen children

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Speaker 2: much younger since the COVID pandemic getting onto social media

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Speaker 2: sites before they're ready. In fact, we just put out

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Speaker 2: some youth research showing that eighty four percent of eight

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Speaker 2: to twelve year olds are online now and that equates

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Speaker 2: to about one point three million kids in primary school

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Speaker 2: years that are that are likely on social media and

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Speaker 2: messaging apps. So we need to be engaged in our

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Speaker 2: kids online lives now. E Safety is really unique in

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Speaker 2: that we offer the world's only government backed cyberbuling service

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Speaker 2: in the world. So if a child is cyberbully, then

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Speaker 2: they report to the platform and that doesn't come down.

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Speaker 2: They can report to us, as can a parent, a

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Speaker 2: care or a designated educator or other supervisor. And we

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Speaker 2: have a ninety percent success rate in terms of getting

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Speaker 2: that content down. So this is what we see, and

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Speaker 2: what we know is that online abuse or cyberbuling is

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Speaker 2: almost always peer to peer, and it's almost always tied

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Speaker 2: to conflict happening within this school gates. So that's where

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Speaker 2: that compounding effect happens. Often kids are reluctant to report first,

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Speaker 2: to report to a platform because they think that they

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Speaker 2: won't do anything let alone a government agency, or are

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Speaker 2: to talk to a parent because they're afraid of device denial.

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Speaker 2: They also don't want to be the dabber or the snitch.

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Speaker 2: But I would say that particularly when a child is

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Speaker 2: being targeted in by multiple people or in really damaging ways,

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Speaker 2: the best thing we can do is rapidly remove that content,

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Speaker 2: and often with the consent of the child or the parent.

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Speaker 2: We often for underage kids, encourage them to get their

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Speaker 2: parents involved. We also involve the school community, and we

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Speaker 2: find that once the core of the conflict is removed

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Speaker 2: and there is visibility around the school community and the

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Speaker 2: parent community that this bullying has happened, it tends to dissipate.

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Speaker 2: And there are lots of complexities there, but again, just

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Speaker 2: getting the content taken down can provide tremendous relief and

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Speaker 2: then we often pass. We've got a contractual arrangement with

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Speaker 2: Kids Helpline, so where we see kids are really hurting

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Speaker 2: or may need mental health support, we refer those kids

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Speaker 2: on Julie.

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Speaker 1: What percentage of parents know about a safety commissioner capacity there?

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Speaker 1: Do you have any research on that to show the

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Speaker 1: extent to which families in the Australian community are aware

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Speaker 1: that you are there and have those powers to have

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Speaker 1: content removed from these social media sites.

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Speaker 2: I would say not as many as we want, probably

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Speaker 2: closer to the forty percent mark. But this is precisely

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Speaker 2: why I do podcasts like this, just to let parents

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Speaker 2: and educators know that we're here to help. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I've just written letters to the principles of Shalom College

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Speaker 2: and Saint Sabine and Redlands College in Queensland to let

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Speaker 2: them know. And it feels terrible in a way because

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Speaker 2: this is our worst case scenario that a cyberbullying incident,

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Speaker 2: along with you know, other factors, would escalate to the

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Speaker 2: point where a child feels that they have no way out.

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Speaker 2: When we can provide that relief and that support. We

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Speaker 2: have very good relationships with all of the platforms from

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Speaker 2: TikTok to Instagram to Snapchat, and I can tell you

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Speaker 2: that none of them want to see young people being

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Speaker 2: bullied online. I'd also say there are a couple of

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Speaker 2: other concerning trends that we're starting to see, and that

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Speaker 2: is that young people are becoming much more aggressive and

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Speaker 2: being much more persistent and pervasive with their targeting of

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Speaker 2: other children. We're seeing more fight videos, which is almost

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Speaker 2: sent as a way to dogs people. We're seeing really

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Speaker 2: violent use of language by kids as young as fourteen,

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Speaker 2: threatening rape and death threats. So we've started to use

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Speaker 2: what we call our end user notice powers, where we

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Speaker 2: do this in conjunction with parents and the school community.

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Speaker 2: But it's essentially a cease and desist notice that we

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Speaker 2: send to these kids that say you must take this

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Speaker 2: content down, you must write an apology letter to the target,

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Speaker 2: you must commit that you will not engage in this

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Speaker 2: kind of behavior again. And the reason we use this

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Speaker 2: as a deterrent because we do not want children at

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Speaker 2: this age thinking that they can harass, intimidate, threaten, and

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Speaker 2: humiliate others with total impunity. And I would say there's

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Speaker 2: some schools that are really excellent and get very engaged,

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Speaker 2: and there are some schools that are quite disengaged. There

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Speaker 2: was a case where we were very concerned about a

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Speaker 2: contagion effect of self harm where teenage girls were inciting

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Speaker 2: other girls to engage in more violent forms of cutting.

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Speaker 2: Really and the principal at that school refused to become engaged.

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Speaker 2: They said, oh, this is happening after school hours. These

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Speaker 2: are not devices owned by the schools. And I guess

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Speaker 2: my entreaty two schools would be, these are students in

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Speaker 2: your school community. If there's a contagion happening within your community,

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Speaker 2: you have to you have to get involved and take

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Speaker 2: a stand. We've got a range of tools for educators

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Speaker 2: as well, what we call the Tools for schools. We

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Speaker 2: provide virtual classrooms for teachers, professional training for teachers, but

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Speaker 2: also virtual classrooms for kids.

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Speaker 1: Julie, to what extent you think parents are aware that

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Speaker 1: their kids are saying this sort of stuff. When I

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Speaker 1: was a kid, i'd get cranky one of my friends.

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Speaker 1: I'd say, oh, you're dead meat, and that was that

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Speaker 1: was just what we said. I mean, if I heard

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Speaker 1: my kids say that, they'd be so cranky. We can't

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Speaker 1: speak like that and yet when when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: it didn't seem like it was that big of a deal.

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Speaker 1: When they're making these kinds of threats, there's really two

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Speaker 1: questions here. Number one, do you think that they realize

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Speaker 1: just what they're saying in the same way that I

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Speaker 1: don't think I really understood what I was saying when

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Speaker 1: I said you're dead meat? And number two, do you

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Speaker 1: think parents have got any idea what their kids are

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Speaker 1: doing and saying online?

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Speaker 2: Whenever our investigators look at the content, we always look

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Speaker 2: at the context and you know, is this just kind

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Speaker 2: of grandstanding or you know, I'm you know, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to kill you? But what we're seeing is much more deliberate,

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Speaker 2: very concerning targeted specific threats of harm or I'm just

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Speaker 2: thinking of one where there was a group of kids

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Speaker 2: that had beaten up another kid and he was unconscious

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Speaker 2: and they continued to kick him and they sent that

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Speaker 2: video around. Is almost an intimidating factor, and these were

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Speaker 2: young kids that seem to show no or little mercy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I have to say sometimes I'm shocked with

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Speaker 2: the language that's being used. And then there's some really

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Speaker 2: deliberate tactics. There's something called phoenixing where one child will

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Speaker 2: set up to fifty or sixty accounts with the target's name,

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Speaker 2: and you know, they know that as their abuse gets

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Speaker 2: reported and comes down, there will be another one that

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Speaker 2: comes rises up in the ashes, and that the whole

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Speaker 2: intent is to just put constant pressure on the person.

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Speaker 2: So it's a very insidious way of continuing to target

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Speaker 2: a child. So there is something for it.

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Speaker 1: Yeahka, and parents, you got to assume that the parents

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Speaker 1: just a completely oblievious to this, that they're simply not

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Speaker 1: wandering not where that this is going on.

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Speaker 2: So yes, and some times, know what's really really interesting

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Speaker 2: is some parents are absolutely shocked, they have no idea,

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Speaker 2: and then you have other parents who take a very

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Speaker 2: defensive position my child would other do or say anything

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Speaker 2: like that, even when we present them with evidence. You know,

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Speaker 2: I do think this is where role modeling as a

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Speaker 2: parent is so important. You know, the language we use

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Speaker 2: around the house, the way we talk to each other,

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Speaker 2: the way we talk to kids. You know, kids are sponges.

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Speaker 2: They pick this up and if they're not picking it

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Speaker 2: up from you, they could be picking it up from

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Speaker 2: cultural product and their peers. This is why we have

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Speaker 2: to kind of guide kids along, particularly you know, before

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Speaker 2: they reach thirteenage years and they want to be more independent,

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Speaker 2: to ensure that we're engaging. As I was just saying

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Speaker 2: to you justin, I was shocked when I let my

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Speaker 2: then sixth grade twins use my phone number so that

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Speaker 2: they could communicate with and it's their peers. To see

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Speaker 2: some of their peers using the C word and some

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Speaker 2: other words was really quite confronting to me. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I ended up talking to some of the parents just saying,

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Speaker 2: I know you, I'm sure you don't talk like this

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Speaker 2: around the house, but you need to know that your

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Speaker 2: child is using this kind of language.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to something that you raised before,

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Speaker 1: and that is your powers to have content removed. If

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Speaker 1: you've got a child who's being bullied, if you've got

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Speaker 1: the evidence of it, if there's a way that a

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Speaker 1: report can be made to the e Safety Commissioner office

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Speaker 1: and something can be done there, to what extent can

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Speaker 1: you have content removed from? I mean, so WhatsApp for example,

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Speaker 1: and Facebook Messenger. These are now encrypted, and therefore, because

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Speaker 1: behind that encryption, do you still have powers to get

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Speaker 1: in there? Do you have the capacity to get into

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Speaker 1: the encrypted spaces. I don't know what other apps off

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Speaker 1: of that now, but I'm sure that they're not the

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Speaker 1: only too. How much can you get in there and

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Speaker 1: get that content removed?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's where we have to actually work with the platforms. Informally.

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Speaker 2: We don't have specific app removal powers, but what can

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Speaker 2: be done. And we're seeing more bullying moving from you know,

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Speaker 2: social media bullying which was really the genesis for the

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Speaker 2: Online Safety Act in twenty fifteen, when you know kids

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Speaker 2: were posting to Facebook.

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Speaker 1: What we do is.

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Speaker 2: We ask kids and we show them how to collect

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Speaker 2: the evidence through a screenshot that there's a specific account

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Speaker 2: and what the content is. You can screenshot that that

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Speaker 2: information and report it as bullying. If it contravenes WhatsApp

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Speaker 2: services or WhatsApps terms of service, we can flag it

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Speaker 2: up informally for the platform there's a usually a pattern

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Speaker 2: or a signal that they can pick up and what

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Speaker 2: we found. Those that bully some usually bully others. So

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Speaker 2: there are some cases where the platforms will take action.

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Speaker 2: As I said, we have the ninety percent success rate

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Speaker 2: we have is because we work cooperatively with the platforms

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Speaker 2: and we just point out that this is violating their

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Speaker 2: terms of service, and a policy is only as good

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Speaker 2: as its enforcement, and we service that backstop. Now, sometimes

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Speaker 2: a platform might say we don't agree with you. If

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Speaker 2: you want this content taken down, send us a formal

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Speaker 2: removal notice, and we'll do that if we think the

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Speaker 2: situation warrants it.

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Speaker 1: Julie, we bumped into each other a month and a

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Speaker 1: half ago at south By Southwest. It's a big conference

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Speaker 1: was being held in Sydney, and backstage I asked you

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Speaker 1: if there was anything that was particularly on your mind.

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Speaker 1: You highlighted that the last time we spoke, teenage boys

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Speaker 1: and sextortion was your one of your chief concerns, and

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Speaker 1: you indicated to me backstage that it hasn't moved. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it's only increased in terms of the degree to which

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Speaker 1: you're concerned about it. Could you, for those who are

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Speaker 1: not familiar with what's going on with teenage boys and sextortion,

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Speaker 1: talk a bit about that and specifically this sadistic sexual

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Speaker 1: sextortion that is becoming increasingly frequent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really concerning. So just to put things

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Speaker 2: in context, in twenty eighteen, we receive something like four

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Speaker 2: hundred and thirty two reports of sexual extortion through our

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Speaker 2: image based ABUT scheme, we've seen an over thirteen one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent increase and had over sixty two hundred reports

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Speaker 2: in twenty two twenty three and we haven't finished telling

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Speaker 2: for this year. And so there are two types of

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Speaker 2: sexual extortion. There's financial sexual extortion that is primarily committed

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Speaker 2: by overseas criminal gangs. So the same criminal gangs like

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Speaker 2: the Yahoo boys out of Nigeria who used to send

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Speaker 2: me you know my the princess was kidnapped or you've

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Speaker 2: won a lottery that you didn't enter. They've figured out

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Speaker 2: that young young boys between the ages of sixteen and

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Speaker 2: twenty four, so young men really are much more responsive

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Speaker 2: to a attractive blonde Instagram account asking if they want

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Speaker 2: a sexy chat and taking off their clothes or master

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Speaker 2: debating for a camera within a usually within an hour

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Speaker 2: or two. They're that that effective and the minute that happens,

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Speaker 2: they use a combination of guilt and shame. Often they've

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Speaker 2: done a lot of research about the target. They will

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Speaker 2: know by looking at the Instagram followers, who who their

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Speaker 2: girlfriend is, who their parents are, and they will threaten

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Speaker 2: to share unless money is given, and often it's not

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Speaker 2: just cash. It might be through crypto, it might be

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Speaker 2: through gift cards, and so the whole there's a whole

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Speaker 2: manifesto for these organized criminals on how to really back

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Speaker 2: a child into a corner or a young man into

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Speaker 2: a corner. And the reason they're targeting young men is

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Speaker 2: they're more likely to have jobs and have means as well,

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Speaker 2: but their brains are still developing, right, so they might

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Speaker 2: not be thinking straight, and so they try and back

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Speaker 2: them into a corner and make them panic. Now, sadistic

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Speaker 2: sexual extortion tends to happen more to girls, and that

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Speaker 2: also preys upon fear and leads individuals to kind of

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Speaker 2: comply with demands and hopes of escaping humiliation. But they

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Speaker 2: there's a real emotional tool which creates anxiety, depression, a

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Speaker 2: shattered sense of security. And often this targets young girls,

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Speaker 2: and they're not always looking for financial reward. But these

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Speaker 2: might be predators that will look for more explicit kinds

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Speaker 2: of videos or will command that they do certain things

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Speaker 2: or be online at certain times. They're are perpetrators of

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Speaker 2: sadistic six stortion that engage in this prolonged harassment and

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Speaker 2: use really a sophisticated psychological manipulation techniques to exploit their

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Speaker 2: victims vulnerabilities. So we've just we just dealt with a

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Speaker 2: really heartbreaking one of a fourteen year old girl last week.

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Speaker 2: We had cooperation from the platform so we were able

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Speaker 2: to intercede and then refer on to the ACE at

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Speaker 2: the AFP as active grooming. But it's it's amazing when

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Speaker 2: we are we are able to engage with parents when

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Speaker 2: the kids are underage, and so my parents say that, oh,

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Speaker 2: my kids smarter than that, they wouldn't engage in that,

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't do that. It's it's really amazing how many

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Speaker 2: young people fall prey to this, and it's it's really

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Speaker 2: really disturbing and distressing.

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Speaker 1: Julie. When we did Pardal Guide in season two, we

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Speaker 1: got in touch with the Austraian Federal Police and the

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Speaker 1: Australian Senator to counter child exploitation and we did this

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Speaker 1: thing where the kids got online and we approached them.

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Speaker 1: We had an actor approach them and try to get

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Speaker 1: personal details from them and a range a meet up

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Speaker 1: and it was devastating as the parents watched their children

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Speaker 1: fall prey to this actor, who I mean had no

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Speaker 1: ill intent. He was an actor and he was being

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Speaker 1: guided by the police to do it, but it was

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Speaker 1: it was absolutely, absolutely devastating, just crushing. The hardest part

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Speaker 1: of all, though, is that the parents whose children made

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Speaker 1: those mistakes said, We've had the talk, we spent time

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Speaker 1: with the kids. It's not just that it was a

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Speaker 1: one off talk. We've had these conversations, and yet kids

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Speaker 1: are kids are vulnerable, and they want to be liked,

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Speaker 1: and they want to explore, and they're curious. They're just

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Speaker 1: so vulnerable. Conversations like the one that we've just had.

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Speaker 1: In so many ways, it's it's depressing, it's it's concerning.

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Speaker 1: It sometimes makes it feel like it's all too hard.

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Speaker 1: But the reason we have to have these conversations is

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Speaker 1: so that parents know that this is a reality for

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Speaker 1: way too many of our kids, and they need to

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Speaker 1: know that you've got the resources there to provide them

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Speaker 1: with the support. There is actually hope and hopefully, hopefully

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Speaker 1: if anything, if it does happen, only on they can

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Speaker 1: they can go to you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we've worked really closely with law enforcement agencies

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Speaker 2: across the country to get up those prevention messages, and

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Speaker 2: those are really you know, if somebody asks you for

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Speaker 2: a sexy chat. You know, don't take off your clothes

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Speaker 2: for anyone you don't know as a real person. But

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Speaker 2: if you do, it's not your fault. Disclose to someone disclosed,

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Speaker 2: disclose disclosed. Don't carry this alone. And again that one

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Speaker 2: of the tactics is to isolate the person. I get

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Speaker 2: terry when I talk about this, but we we met

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Speaker 2: with a Victorian coroner and the names of seventeen different

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Speaker 2: young men who had taken their lives as a result

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Speaker 2: of image based abuse or extortion. And I read one

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Speaker 2: of the suicide notes where they said, Mom, Dad, I

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Speaker 2: messed up, I'm sorry, goodbye. I'm sure every single parent

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Speaker 2: you ever talked to would just would want of them

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Speaker 2: to say, I'm just down the hall. I don't care

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Speaker 2: what you did. If you're in trouble, I'm gonna I'm here,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to help you. And it just it makes

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Speaker 2: you feel so sad because these are young adults. And

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Speaker 2: that's the other thing I worry about is that we

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Speaker 2: might think, Okay, this young man is eighteen, he's technically adult,

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Speaker 2: but he may not have the same pastoral care, or

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Speaker 2: maybe in transition, is no longer in school, maybe in

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Speaker 2: UNI or at tafe or doing a trade and still

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Speaker 2: not have really found themselves. And you know, I think

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Speaker 2: we expect a lot of young adults in terms of

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Speaker 2: taking on things like this, and I just think we

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Speaker 2: have to remember that we need to be there for

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Speaker 2: our kids always.

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Speaker 1: Two things as you share that number one. Over the

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Speaker 1: last couple of months, I've had a couple of conversations

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Speaker 1: with parents whose boys have gone to them and said,

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Speaker 1: I've made a terrible mistake and things are about to

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Speaker 1: get really bad. What a gift it is that they've

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Speaker 1: been willing to have that conversation. What an absolutely wonderful thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it still doesn't always work out. Recently on

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Speaker 1: Channel ten, there was a terrible story about a young

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Speaker 1: man who some months after everything had sort of washed over,

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Speaker 1: it was still too much for him. But the more

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Speaker 1: that we can let our children know that our love

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Speaker 1: for them is bigger than anything that they could ever do,

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Speaker 1: the more LIKELI is that we get good outcomes, just as.

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Speaker 2: We can get that content taken down and so they

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Speaker 2: can come to us. We will always provide whatever kind

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Speaker 2: of wrap around support we can, you know, and we

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Speaker 2: also tell people not to pay, because if you pay,

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Speaker 2: they'll keep coming back and block them and collect the evidence,

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Speaker 2: and we'll work with the police and we'll do what

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Speaker 2: we can. You probably will never get your money back,

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Speaker 2: but we can try and get the imagery down, and

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Speaker 2: you know, people can leave with their dignity intact because

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Speaker 2: they're being socially scammed and engineered to the ends. Degree.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was literally about to say. The

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Speaker 1: good news is the Safety Commissioner has the powers to

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Speaker 1: act on that. And if people, if people just knew

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Speaker 1: that you were there, which is obviously the purpose of

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Speaker 1: this conversation, they'd know that there's an opportunity there for

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Speaker 1: some sort of redemption, for some sort of some sort

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Speaker 1: of hope out of it. So a couple of big

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Speaker 1: topics Julie bullying, it's not going away, and as you've said,

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Speaker 1: in some ways it's becoming even more vindictive and more challenging.

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Speaker 1: But you have the powers to act and to help

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Speaker 1: kids to be safer. And obviously with the sextortion for

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Speaker 1: boys and the statistic sexual sextortion for girls, again the

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Speaker 1: powers are there so that people need anything, they can

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Speaker 1: go to the e Safety website and get the support

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Speaker 1: that they need. For those who are not familiar with

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Speaker 1: what you do and where to find you. Can you

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Speaker 1: just give us a couple of quick point is on that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I E Safety dot gov dot EU. Everything is there,

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Speaker 2: so there's parent guides in multiple languages. You can search

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Speaker 2: based on apps that your kids may be using. You

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Speaker 2: can search based on issue, whether it's extortion or cyberbulling,

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Speaker 2: and reporting abuse is right up top. We take reports

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Speaker 2: of child sexual abuse, material terrorist content, youth based cyberbulling,

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Speaker 2: image based abuse, which is the sharing of intemn images

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Speaker 2: and videos. This includes deep fakes, and then adult cyber abuse.

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Speaker 1: And there's so much more we could talk about, but

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Speaker 1: our time is absolutely will and truly gone. It is

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Speaker 1: such an important conversation though, Julian mcgrand AUSTRAI as a

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Speaker 1: safety commissioner, thank you for being so helpful and so

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Speaker 1: generous with your time. Thank you what an important conversation.

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Speaker 1: If you need support, obviously the e safety dot gov

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Speaker 1: dot AU website will be a useful place. But if

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Speaker 1: this has stirred up anything else for you, there are

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Speaker 1: a range of different helplines around, including a Lifeline, Kids Helpline, Parentline,

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Speaker 1: Men's Healthline, one three YAN and so many others. Please

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Speaker 1: please please make sure that you take care of yourself

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Speaker 1: and those that you love. The Happy Families podcast is

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Speaker 1: produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: more information about the things we've talked about today, you'll

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Speaker 1: find that at the Safety dot gov dot A. You

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Speaker 1: will link to that in the show notes, and for

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Speaker 1: more about making your family happier, try happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot a