WEBVTT - Truth, Lies and a Crime Scene 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.960 For you, the listeners of Curtin the podcast. Audible dot 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:08.080 com is offering a free audiobook download with a free 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.559 thirty day trial to give you the opportunity to check 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.440 out their service. For that free trial, you go to 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:22.120 www dot audibletrial dot com, forward slash Curtain the podcast 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.800 and that link will be on our website. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.960 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returns guilty 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.960 verdicts against all three defendants. It was absolute shambles, to 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:36.559 tell you the truth, just absolutely really coloured blood on 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.320 his clothing the day after the alleged at a shallow 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:40.839 mud bank and it fits through a river. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.120 Basically, I think most of the people are used to me, 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:44.479 there are good people. 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.160 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:50.280 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:53.800 This is Kurtain, a podcast where we pull back the 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:56.320 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.160 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:01.360 Amy Maguire. 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.160 And I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.399 Prisoner Support Service. Our producer is Paul Watts. Music by 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.880 Clint Curtis and produced in collaboration with the Brisbane Indigenous 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:19.920 Media Association and a warning. This series contains the names 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:24.280 of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:25.480 some listeners. 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.920 Last week we told you about Kevin's confession and how 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.200 key parts of that confession were struck out by the judge. 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.120 The judge found that what Kevin said to police was 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.319 not admissible because it was not voluntary. So Kevin didn't 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.080 actually confess to putting Linda in the water. Why did 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.560 police continue to go down that line? Well, we have 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:48.840 to take you back to that week in nineteen ninety one. 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:52.600 Yet again, we'll take you back to the day after 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:57.800 Winda was found. That was September two, nineteen ninety one. 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:02.840 On that day and original man William Spicer was fishing 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:08.400 on the Fitzroy River. Spicer wasn't from Rockhampton. He lived 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.280 in Brisbane. A few days prior, he'd failed to appear 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.760 in court for another matter down there. On that day, 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.080 Spicer said he was fishing in between the new Bridge 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.680 and the railway bridge when Kevin Henry was supposed to 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:23.560 have approached him. 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.519 If you've never been to Rockhampton, that's where Spicer said 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.000 he was fishing, is about thirty minute walk from Tanuba 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.520 on the same side of the riverbank. And this is 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:34.400 what Spicer said on the witness stand. 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:35.600 What happened? 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.000 Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen, please, what happened 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.360 that man in the box there, he came up and 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.760 started talking to me about that woman who got killed. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.359 Asked me, did I know anything about it? 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:50.079 I said no. 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:53.960 Spicer claimed that Kevin told what the women did to Linda, 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.880 how they had used an iron bar, and then they 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.440 walked back up the river and back towards town. Spicer 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.079 says he parted ways with Kevin and then went to 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.760 the police station. The next day, Kevin apparently came back 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.720 down again to the same place where Spicer was fishing. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.920 Spicer said he walked across the railway bridge. 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:16.680 This is what Spicer said on the witness stand the 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.480 next day, What did you do? I was looking for 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:23.920 him and that, and I heard in the paper the 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.960 body was found in the water. And I asked him 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:28.799 and he said he was the bloke who put the 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.440 body in the water to make it float away. Spicer 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.640 claimed that an article from the local paper about Linda's 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.800 death had been read to him, and he asked Kevin 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.640 whether he knew anything about the murder. After seeing Kevin 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.040 for the second time, Spicer went back to the police 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.240 station where they took a statement off him. 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:50.480 That was one of. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.920 Two statements they took off Spicer. Now it's important to 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.560 note here that Spicer also admitted on the stand that 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.920 he is alliterate. He couldn't read, and so the state 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:05.400 once he signed with an ex we're written by police. Now, madam, 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.640 what do we know about this William Spicer character. 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.280 Well, I mean, it's quite unusual at the very beginning 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:15.520 when we read his statement that allegedly Kevin's come and 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.920 twice spoken to him having never met him before, and 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:27.080 described what's allegedly taken place. Now, not only is that unusual, 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.840 we know that mister Spicer doesn't always tell the truth. 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:37.359 In fact, on the stand under cross examination, this is 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.640 what Kevin Henry's lawyer asked him. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.120 Mister Spicer, is that right? Yes? 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:48.320 Or is it Forester no Spicer? Or is it Forester 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:53.840 no Spicer? Are you sure it's not George Neville Forester, 0:04:54.440 --> 0:05:00.280 George Forester, George Neville Forester answer, I do have two names. 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.760 You just use those names when you were committing a crime, 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:04.280 do you. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:06.000 So. 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.039 While we won't go into the full record of mister 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:16.000 Spice's criminal history, it's long, it's extensive, and it includes fraud, 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:23.440 includes indecent exposure, includes making false statements to police, and 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:28.159 clearly he has multiple names. So instantly I think we 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.159 can start to question what did Kevin say to him, 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.520 if anything, and did in fact he ever speak to. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:36.159 Kevin at all? 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.599 What would have been the motivation though, to make a 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.679 statement like that to police if he never had seen 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.160 Kevin to begin with. 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.120 When we know that Spicer had failed to appear in 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.800 court just days prior to Linda's death, we also know 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:57.279 there was a warrant out for his arrest, and although 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.000 on the witness stand he claimed not to have commit 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:06.400 crimes recently, he in fact had committed at least three crimes. 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:07.760 In the twelve months prior. 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:14.360 So with a warrant out for his arrest, facing contempt 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.720 of court charges as well as sentencing for a whole 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:23.039 other load of cases where he'd been found guilty, he 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:25.560 had plenty of reason to want to cooperate with the 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.640 police and tell them something they wanted to hear to 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:29.640 get himself out. 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.200 Of trouble Mardin. 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.359 It's brought up in the trial that he'd seen a 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:37.599 newspaper article about Linda's death, but it's also brought up 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:39.640 that he was illiterate. What can we take from that. 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:44.360 Well, he does claim that that article was read to him, 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:49.120 although he does also say that he bought the newspaper. Now, 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.520 this is a man who does not read and write 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:56.000 at all, so the fact he buys a newspaper allegedly 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:57.400 is suspect. 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.600 From the beginning. We also know that he gave. 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:06.599 Two statements to police and he can't Again, he can't 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:12.240 read and write. Now, these statements weren't necessarily read to him. 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.680 In fact, he says that the second statement, which was 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.520 taken a month later, and this is the one in 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:23.800 which he implicates Kevin and not the women, he signs 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.920 just with an X. And there's no suggestion that statement 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:32.160 was ever read to him. He says on the witness stand, 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:39.120 it's the same. But those two statements weren't the same. Now, 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.160 given he couldn't read, and given it wasn't read to him, 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.880 there's no way he could know what he was signing, 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.480 or he did was put an X at the bottom 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.920 and that's where he agreed that Kevin had confessed to him. 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.680 So I think it's pretty clear that not only do 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.960 we have a witness who was capable of making false claim, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:04.640 James who had an extensive criminal record, who probably didn't 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.360 buy a newspaper, who'd probably never seen the article at all. 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.840 In fact, I doubt he ever saw Kevin ever, And 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.880 we should make this point. Kevin claims never to have 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:21.320 met William Spicer, never to have seen him, and never 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.800 to have made those walks over the bridge where mister 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:25.680 Spicer was. 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.160 How much did that win this statement play in Kevin's 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:30.800 conviction or the trial. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.320 Well, I think in the trial it doesn't play too 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.280 important a factor, given that it's clearly shown under cross 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:43.920 examination that this is a man that is not someone 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.640 who offers up the truth when asked. In fact, he 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.560 sort of admits that by the end of his statement. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:56.160 The big role I believe mister Spicer plays in Kevin's trial, 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.760 Kevin's conviction, and Kevin's arrest is the fact it appears 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.720 he's the first person to claim that Kevin dumped the 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:09.560 body in the water. Now that was made the day 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:14.199 after Linda had passed, so immediately that would have influenced 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:18.560 the police, and clearly we know from then on that's 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.839 all they focused on, and once they'd arrested Kevin, they 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:28.360 didn't investigate that issue any further. Nobody else raised that issue, 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:32.760 So that must have been taken from mister Spicer, who 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.440 quite clearly is someone pretty liberal with the truth. 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.959 So was that the only statement taken from a witness 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:41.160 who couldn't read and write. 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:41.600 No. 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.800 In fact, the very next witness called on the stand 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.440 was another person, a woman who couldn't read or write either, 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:55.520 and she freely admitted that she was illiterate. Now, the 0:09:55.559 --> 0:10:00.600 problem with this is, just like mister Spicer during her statement, 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.120 there was no one present with her. Now, if they 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:07.880 can't read or write, and the police aren't reading the 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.160 statement back to them, how have they got any chance 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:15.559 of knowing what's in that statement. So there's a huge 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.199 problem with the way this was conducted. And these statements 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:23.600 were taken very early on in the piece and clearly 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.240 impacted on the way the investigation was run. 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.080 So were there any other issues in regards to this particular. 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.199 Witness, Well, there was, and it's something that shows us 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:37.840 that clearly she didn't know what was in her statement. 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:40.520 Firstly, she admits. 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.280 That she was very drunk on that day, so when 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.840 she's giving this statement, there's a lot of inconsistencies. But 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.040 it is again a lot worse than that, because not 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.640 only can she not read and write, not only did 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:59.640 she just initial the statement, she clearly didn't know what 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.080 was in it. And we know that because she admitted 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.480 as much in court. She was asked if she'd had 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:12.040 a conversation outside the courtroom that day, and she admitted 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:17.880 she had. She was taking direction from other people before 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:22.480 going on the stand about what she should say on 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:26.800 the stand, and this is what she said, What am 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.400 I going to say? She admits she was asking for help. 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.560 First she says she was asking for help in regards 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.040 to just how to be a witness, and then she 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.560 admits she was asking for help in regards to her statement. 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.040 Clearly she had no idea what was in it. And 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.480 this again was what was overheard. What do you want 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:51.320 me to say here? Do you remember saying that? Yes, 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.600 So she was asking someone for direction as to what 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.240 to say on the witness stand, and we can tell 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.320 you the person she was asking was a relative of hers, 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.319 and that relative was one of Kevin's co accused. 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.560 Now, Mardin, there was one other thing that you mentioned 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:11.920 about this witness while we were investigating the case. 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:12.560 What was it? 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.720 Well, that was the fact that on the stand, this 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:21.240 witness repeatedly claims that the day after Linda's body was found, 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.559 nobody down at ten Uber House, and this includes all 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:29.040 the people that were there the night before, the three 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:34.439 women involved in the assault, that nobody spoke of what happened. Now, 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.320 this is important because her statement was taken, just like 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.800 mister Spicer, a second statement more than a month later, 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.720 and she claims that even then she hadn't spoken to 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.920 anyone about the case, hadn't spoken to anyone about what 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:56.319 happened that night before, didn't talk about the fight, didn't 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.280 talk about the fact that the police were all over 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:04.120 the joint, nothing, And that claims that she'd only spoken 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.040 to the police, and she was questioned about this quite 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.079 forcefully on the stand. Now, the reason this is important 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.840 is virtually every other witness will make this claim that 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:21.160 the following day and the months after, some even claim 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.040 all the way up until the trial, and we're talking 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.920 eight months, never spoke to anyone but the police about 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:33.000 what went on a That's very hard to believe that 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.960 they wouldn't talk about something so serious that they'd witnessed 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.800 the fact that they were going to court to be 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.920 a witness, and that it just wouldn't come up in conversation. 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.319 And we know that the very next day everyone was 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:53.520 sitting around at Tanuba House before the police arrived. That's 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.800 on the Sunday, and the suggestion is that they were 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.520 not talking about the night before. That's something I just 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:01.240 can't believe. 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.840 Now, what do you talk about how all of the 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:07.079 witnesses claimed that they didn't talk to each other, but 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.120 you say that a lot of them were around sitting 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:13.000 around Tanuba House before police courted it off. What do 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.640 we know about that? When did police go down to Tanuba. 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.320 We know that a body was found early that morning, 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:22.920 around eight am. We know that a number of extra 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:27.160 police were called on duty at about nine thirty am, 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.040 and that was clearly to do with the fact that 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:34.160 a body had been found and a serious investigation was 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.000 about to begin. But those police who would secure the 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.200 crime scene didn't arrive at t Nuba House until three 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.720 point fifteen that afternoon. So that's a considerable period where 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.359 the crime scene of the assault, where all the witnesses 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.760 still were was unsecured, so. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.840 Mardin the crime scene had been unsecured for a very 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.520 long time. What does that mean for the evidence, Well. 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:02.800 It's quite significant because the assault had taken place on 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:07.320 Lnder nearly twenty four hours earlier before the crime scene 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.640 was secured. But also all the witnesses, the three women 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:15.440 who would later be convicted of that assault, was still around, 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.960 so they had significant time up to twenty four hours, 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.440 but from the time the body was found still another 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.800 six hours where any of that evidence. 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:27.560 Could have been tampered with. 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.360 There could have been attempts to clean it up, There 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:34.360 could have been attempts to destroy particular pieces of evidence, 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.200 or there simply would have been people just walking around. 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.280 And we know there was a considerable number of people, 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.920 and so even just people walking around walking through a 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.160 crime scene that disturbs a lot of the evidence. It 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:53.840 changes the way things are placed. People might move objects 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.720 they don't know were associated with the crime. They might 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:02.160 clean something up not knowing what had gone on, because 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.680 we do know a lot of people came and went 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:08.440 from Tanuba, so someone could have seen some blood and 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.720 maybe just cleaned it up thinking they were doing the 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:15.320 right thing. So this clearly plays an impact in the 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.200 crime scene and the forensic evidence and the way it 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.880 was gathered. But most importantly, this is the site where 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.160 virtually all the forensic evidence that would be tended in 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:29.480 court is taken from a crime scene that was unsecured 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.400 for twenty four hours from the time of the assault 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.200 and six hours from when the body was found, and 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:41.520 particularly the area where Linda was assaulted, and this forms 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.720 the majority of the forensic evidence. 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:47.520 Now, Mardin is going to provide a few details of 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.240 the forensic evidence, and we must warn our listeners it 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:51.920 does contain distressing content. 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.600 Now, the assault on Winder is a significant part of 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.800 this entire event. We can't be sure whether this assault 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.639 was lethal and resulted in her death or whether she 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:10.080 was still alive after the assault had finished. Witnesses seem 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.760 to be confused on this fact, and the forensic scientists 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:20.080 can't provide conclusive evidence, although under questioning one would give 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.720 a more definitive opinion, and will come to that later. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.840 But what's clear from the statements of the witnesses, from 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.480 the statements of the accused and the women who would 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.040 later be convicted of this assault, one of whom would 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.120 plead guilty during the process, and of everyone else who 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.720 was around at that time, is that the assault on 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.719 Linda was long and sustained. The three women initially began 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:52.520 with blows to Linda's head, and these blows were significant. 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.440 That's testified to both by the witnesses who saw them 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:00.399 and by the forensic scientists, one of whom said a 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.199 significant degree of force was delivered to the head area. 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:09.159 The assault took place, then it paused for a while, 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:13.280 and then it recommenced, and when it recommenced, it was 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:18.800 far more violent. The assault resulted in severe trauma and 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:23.600 lacerations to the head, to the torso, to the arms, 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.679 the legs, and even the hands. It was a considerable 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.040 amount of bleeding. Much of this blood came from the 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:36.320 head and two significant wounds that were caused by severe blows. 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.919 We also know that at least one of the women 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:46.080 and possibly two jumped onto Winder off a nearby step. 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.879 That was why her body was on the ground, and 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.720 it's believed she was still conscious at the time. Again, 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:58.000 the forensic testimony would show that this too caused significant 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:02.200 damage to Linda's body and wounds both to her head 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.600 and to her to Also, towards the end of the assault, 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:11.320 we get to the point of the bar. Now this 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:16.760 is important because the confession that would convict Kevin is 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:22.240 claimed that he put the bar in Linda's mouth. Now, 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:26.439 there is no forensic evidence that suggests this ever took place. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.879 What we do know, though, however, is a bar was 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:36.920 used by the three women. Now at trial, it's never 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:41.000 confirmed exactly who was the person to pick up the bar, 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.280 although all the witnesses tend to agree that. 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.119 It was one individual in particular. 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.359 Out of up to thirty statements, really only one or 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.480 two differ on this fact, and that bar was used 0:19:55.480 --> 0:20:01.399 to inflict a significant injury on Linda. It resulted in 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:06.880 a seven centimeter wound that would have caused significant bleeding, 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.680 It was a deep penetrating wound into the tissue, and 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:16.280 it punctured a significant organ in Linda's body. 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:18.960 All of this is important to remember. 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:22.720 Not only does it go to the fact that the 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:27.760 assault committed by the women was significant and possibly lethal, 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:33.680 it also shows the potential that Kevin wasn't needed at all. 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:34.640 To solve this crime. 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:39.080 That the assault on Linda by the three women was 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.280 the significant event of that night. Now we can begin 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:48.320 to confirm some of this by two events. Firstly, that 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.640 those three women were initially charged by. 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:53.360 The detective inspector. 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:57.760 At the police station with murder, and that's quite consistent 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.960 with the forensic evidence that's offered, and we'll go into 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:06.040 that in more detail. But perhaps what's also significant is 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:10.480 something we've mentioned earlier in this podcast today, and that's 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:15.320 that mister Spicer, the witness who was illiterate, who didn't 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.720 know what was in his statement, who simply put an 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.480 X on his second statement, given more than a month 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:28.040 after the events, that would implicate Kevin, had been given 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:33.840 to police very early on in proceedings. Now it's not 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:37.720 till later on that it's established by anyone other than 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:41.560 the police that this mister Spicer was known not to 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.760 be truthful. We know this because of the many crimes 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.159 mister Spicer was convicted of and the fact there was 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:53.400 already outstanding warrants for his arrest. The fact he implicated 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:57.760 Kevin so early on, based on what appears to be 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:03.000 no evidence at all, persuayed some but not all, of 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:07.640 the police officers that Kevin was somewhat of interest, But 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.960 that clearly wasn't enough for Detective Inspector Weeks, the most 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:17.440 senior officer, based on the assault I've just described, decided 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:21.040 that was enough for murder charges to be laid against 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:21.800 the three women. 0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:26.760 Now, in the last episode we told you about multiple 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.280 people being charged. There were multiple versions of events and 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:34.919 there seemed to be a degree of confusion amongst police. Madam, 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:37.439 was this the only Was this confusion only in relation 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:38.119 to the charging? 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:43.280 No, So that charging initially resulted in the three women 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:48.080 being charged with murder by the same police officer, Detective 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:52.440 Inspector Weeks, who I mentioned just previously, and then only 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.480 a few hours Kevin Henry being charged by a lower 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:01.040 ranking officer with murder based on an entire separate version 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:01.680 of events. 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:05.800 But the confusion began on. 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:07.919 The very day the police began. 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:12.119 Their investigation, and that's quite clear by much of what 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:17.439 takes place and by their testimony. Now that includes the 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.679 failure to secure the crime scene, even though a police 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.800 officer admits he was aware at around nine to thirty 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:30.280 of where the assault had probably taken place, or at 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.800 the very least where the body is believed to have 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:37.560 entered the river. Or the police's idea of where the 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:41.879 body had entered the river. Now, based on that that 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.960 officer should have secured that crime scene immediately, but that 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:50.720 didn't take place for five or six hours. Now, there 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:55.240 are other issues. There were multiple people, multiple police officers, 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:58.439 claiming from the very beginning, to be in charge of 0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:03.520 the investigation, and they clearly took very different paths. Why 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:07.120 wasn't a decision made very early on as to who 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:09.640 would be in charge of the crime scene, who would 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:14.040 be in charge of the investigation, and finally who would 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:18.320 lay the formal charges? But the discussions between the police 0:24:18.880 --> 0:24:22.560 seemed to be very mixed and very confused. Some say 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:25.960 there was consultation, others say there was not. Some say 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:29.040 they made the decisions on their own. Some say they 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.239 did so with the agreement of other police officers who 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:35.760 would later claim they weren't consulted. This leaves us with 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:39.320 a great problem at this point, in kurtin the podcast, 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:42.760 it's fair to say we may never uncover the truth. 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:46.199 And that's because on that day the police did not 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:48.840 do their job. They didn't do it in the way 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:54.600 they questioned witnesses who were either still hungover, were still 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.720 heavily intoxicated, or who were illiterate, and none of whom 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:02.840 were given assistance giving their statement, nor allowed the presence 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:05.000 of a lawyer. It's because of the way the crime 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:10.000 scene was secured or not secured for many many hours 0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:13.600 after the crime had took place, and after that crime 0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:18.360