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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot au. Today I'm joined with one

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Speaker 2: of my favorite podcast guests, dr Anthea Rhodes. We get

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Speaker 2: to chat pretty regularly about the great work that she

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Speaker 2: does with the RCH National Child Health Poll. Dr Rhodes

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Speaker 2: is an Associate Professor of public Health. She's a pediatrician

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Speaker 2: and she directs the Royal Children's Hospital National Child Health Poll. So, Anthea,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the podcast. Great to have you along again

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Speaker 2: to talk about your latest poll.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Justin, great to be here.

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Speaker 2: As always, I wanted to talk to you about this

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Speaker 2: poll because it struck me as both being awful and

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Speaker 2: so true and something that I can completely relate to.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if I want to admit to this,

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Speaker 2: but in a nutshell, the latest Royal Children's Hospital National

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Speaker 2: Child Health Poll found that while more than ninety percent

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Speaker 2: and a parent said that they enjoyed playing with their

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Speaker 2: children or their child, thirty six percent said that they

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Speaker 2: would prefer to do something else. Basically, what you've done

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Speaker 2: is you've asked two thousand parents about how often they

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Speaker 2: play with the kids, how it feels to play with

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Speaker 2: the kids. Why don't you walk us through what you

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Speaker 2: actually found beyond that one stat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so, we also found that around two thirds of

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Speaker 1: parents said they found it hard or boring to play

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Speaker 1: with their kids, and that was a more common experience

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Speaker 1: for dads than it was for mums, and particularly when

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Speaker 1: children were very young babies. We found that, as you say,

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Speaker 1: parents sort of knew it was important, so that was

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Speaker 1: really reassuring to us, but at the same time, they

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Speaker 1: found it hard to find the time and the energy

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Speaker 1: to schedule in play. Some parents said they felt like

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Speaker 1: play these days is just not as good as it

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Speaker 1: used to be back when they were kids, that kids

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Speaker 1: have forgotten how to be bored, and that we really

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Speaker 1: need to think about what play looks like and whether

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Speaker 1: it's as good as it was perhaps when we were

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Speaker 1: growing up.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you when you were growing up? So

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Speaker 2: you're a gen xer? That's am I safe in putting

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Speaker 2: that out there?

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Speaker 1: Oh? That's pretty safe? Pretty safe?

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Speaker 2: You and I both fall into that same category. Did

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Speaker 2: your parents play with you much? Anthea?

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Speaker 1: Do you know my parents didn't really play with me much.

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Speaker 1: They were pretty busy, pretty hard working. They had small business.

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Speaker 1: I've got two sisters who are pretty close in age

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Speaker 1: to me, and my memories of my childhood were full

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Speaker 1: of play, but most of it didn't involve my parents,

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Speaker 1: so there was a lot of us being left to

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Speaker 1: occupy ourselves. We spent a lot of time, you know,

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Speaker 1: down the street, around with the neighbors, or in the

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Speaker 1: back room at my parents' shop actually where we spent

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Speaker 1: many of our hours after school, and we did a

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Speaker 1: lot of imaginary play. We had things that we dreamt up,

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Speaker 1: that we made up that we still laugh about sometimes today,

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Speaker 1: and lots of parents listening would be maybe able to

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Speaker 1: relate to that. They think about the fact that we

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Speaker 1: didn't have devices. We had TV, you know, we had

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Speaker 1: free to air program TV, so you might have half

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Speaker 1: an hour in the afternoon where something interesting was on,

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Speaker 1: but that was it. And things have changed a lot.

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Speaker 1: This survey showed us that the most common way kids

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Speaker 1: in Australia are playing today is with devices, and that

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Speaker 1: they're much more likely to be doing that than they

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Speaker 1: are to be playing outside. So play has changed. It's

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Speaker 1: not all bad news, you know. Play is about things,

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Speaker 1: opportunities for kids to be creative, for them to do

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Speaker 1: things that are led by themselves, so they think about

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Speaker 1: what it is they make it up, and that it's

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Speaker 1: just because it's satisfying mostly fun, but not always. Play

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Speaker 1: can also be a bit stressful. It might actually, you know,

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Speaker 1: result in kids being upset. But there's learning in all

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Speaker 1: of that because it's experimentation. So it has changed, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that it's gone away all together. But

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Speaker 1: we as parents maybe need to think a bit more

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Speaker 1: about where are the opportunities for play today for our

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Speaker 1: kids in our busy lives.

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Speaker 2: So I want to jump in with a couple of

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Speaker 2: things and bounce them off you and see what your

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Speaker 2: data says, what your experience is, a pediatrician says, And

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Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting to go back to your

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Speaker 2: two thirds. Call it hard or boring. I've really struggled

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Speaker 2: from the time dad to six kids. But I've really

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Speaker 2: struggled to quote unquote play with the kids. Once they

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Speaker 2: were crawling, I used to tickle them and I'd grabbed

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Speaker 2: their legs as they crawled away and pull them back

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Speaker 2: to me. And I've always loved wrestling and rough and

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Speaker 2: tumble play. But if the kids want to sit down

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Speaker 2: and play a board game, or if they want to,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, play dress ups or play make believe.

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Speaker 2: For a parent, there's nothing intrinsically motivating about sitting down

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Speaker 2: and dragging yourself through the pain of that kind of

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Speaker 2: child play.

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Speaker 1: And there's a few reasons for that. I think one

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Speaker 1: of them, particularly for young children, his play is really repetitive. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's deliberate. And you know, you would know about

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Speaker 1: this with your background understanding psychology and how brains work

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Speaker 1: and how brains grow. But what kids do when they

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Speaker 1: play is they do the same thing or something very similar.

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Speaker 1: They just change it a little bit, and they change

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Speaker 1: it a little bit again, and they changed it a

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Speaker 1: little bit more. They don't change it enough to make

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Speaker 1: it interesting for us as parents. They're like, watch me,

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Speaker 1: watch me now, watch me again, watch me again. You're like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I've seen this. But they are actually

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Speaker 1: changing things a little bit and experimenting and finding out,

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Speaker 1: you know, where the line is when they've crossed the line.

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Speaker 1: They're testing their own boundaries. So I think it's that

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Speaker 1: repetition about play that can be so tedious for parents.

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Speaker 1: But is really really important. But I want to pick

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Speaker 1: up on something else. You said that. I was talking

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Speaker 1: about this with my husband and as you know, I've

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Speaker 1: got four kids, and I said, oh, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is study. It really showed that, you know, parents don't

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Speaker 1: always want to play with their kids, and especially dads.

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Speaker 1: And he laughed and he said, well, you know, we

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Speaker 1: can't all be banned from Bluey Y yes day, Wow,

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Speaker 1: my second day on the planet.

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Speaker 2: Look at all this it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: So for parents listening to watch who watched the show,

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Speaker 1: and it is you know, he is great at playing

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Speaker 1: with his kids, maybe not so great at doing some

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Speaker 1: of the other tasks around the house. But he's going

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Speaker 1: to lie on the floor, He'll stand there while they

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Speaker 1: hose him down. He'll put the dress ups on, you know,

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Speaker 1: he'll get into the make believe and you can see

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Speaker 1: how that's fabulous and it's really promoted and it's a

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Speaker 1: beautiful thing about Blue as a show. But it's also

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Speaker 1: a high bar to set. And I think what this

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Speaker 1: study has really shown is that, you know, lots of

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Speaker 1: people feel that way. It's not that easy. It's not

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Speaker 1: always intuitive. Some parents have said to us, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I'm very good at it. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: to play with my kids. But you know what, there

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Speaker 1: is no perfect and there are no rules, And you know,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be make believe. It doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to be plato, it doesn't have to be trivial pursued.

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Speaker 1: You know, it can be something really simple. Maybe it

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Speaker 1: is chasing them down the hallway. Maybe it's more of

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Speaker 1: that rough and tumble. Maybe it's just something that you,

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Speaker 1: you know, quizzing each other about. It doesn't even have

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Speaker 1: to be physical. Maybe it's something you're talking about or

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Speaker 1: bantering about in the car when you're driving along. So

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Speaker 1: there are lots of little moments of play in our

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Speaker 1: normal lives, and I think sometimes as parents we just

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Speaker 1: don't see them, and maybe we give ourselves a bit

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Speaker 1: of a raw deal. We're doing better than we think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the guilt trip never feels good, and we pack

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Speaker 2: our bags and send ourselves on one of those pretty regular,

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Speaker 2: especially when it comes to parenting. The idea that play

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Speaker 2: can be whatever you want it to be, though, it

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Speaker 2: really resonates for me because while I mean jumping on

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Speaker 2: the trampoline, the older I've gotten, the more gravity has

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Speaker 2: become not my friend, it it hurts me.

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Speaker 1: I haven't even physically had four children yourself, just.

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Speaker 2: So I know, I know, and that's kind of a

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Speaker 2: sensitive area. I probably shouldn't have chosen the trampoline, but

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Speaker 2: I hate jumping on the trampoline. But if the kids

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Speaker 2: want to come for a swim or look, like I said,

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Speaker 2: the rough and tumble stuff or kicking a ball. And

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Speaker 2: there's plenty of research that shows that dads do some

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Speaker 2: kinds of play really well and they're not that into

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Speaker 2: other kinds. Let me ask you, Anthea, when you ask

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Speaker 2: parents about how much time they have for play, what

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Speaker 2: were their responses? Are they saying, oh, yeah, I've got

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Speaker 2: the time, I don't like doing it. Are they saying

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Speaker 2: I'm flat strap, I'm too busy on Netflix, I've got work, Like,

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Speaker 2: what sort of responses are you getting?

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Speaker 1: We found both. So we found there are some parents

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Speaker 1: who have the time, but they just prefer to be

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Speaker 1: doing something else, right, And then there was a round

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Speaker 1: a third of parents who said that they'd like to

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Speaker 1: play with their children more, but they felt they, you know,

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Speaker 1: they were too busy. And that was more common among

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Speaker 1: parents who were working, perhaps unsurprisingly than those who were

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Speaker 1: at home full time with their kids, so a bit

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Speaker 1: of a mixture of things, you know, when it came

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Speaker 1: to how they prioritize it. But I think one of

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Speaker 1: the other big things to come out of the study

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Speaker 1: that's important is that obviously parents are not the only

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Speaker 1: play partner for kids, so there are other people that

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Speaker 1: kids play with. And something really interesting and positive for

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Speaker 1: us out of this study was that around half of

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Speaker 1: kids most often play by themselves when they're at home.

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Speaker 1: This is not when they're at school, so they're occupying themselves,

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Speaker 1: they're doing something and this is not on a device,

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Speaker 1: So this is time they spent playing, not on a device,

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Speaker 1: where they're independent, and that's a really important skill and

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Speaker 1: really reassuring, and I think important for parents to know

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Speaker 1: how normal that is and how common that is. There

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Speaker 1: doesn't always have to be someone else involved in play.

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Speaker 1: It can just be about interacting with your environment. And

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Speaker 1: then of course there's siblings. For those children who have

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Speaker 1: got siblings, you know, they're the most common play partner

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Speaker 1: at home, above parents, above playing on your own. For

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Speaker 1: really young kids, grandparents, you know, one in ten young

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Speaker 1: children most often play with their grandparents, and for teenagers,

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Speaker 1: pets were pretty common in there, around fifteen percent of

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Speaker 1: the time, so lots of different played partners if you like.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't always have to be parents, and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: even have to be anyone, and it's still a really

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Speaker 1: healthy and important thing for kids to be doing. So

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Speaker 1: leaving them to their own devices sometimes is absolutely fine.

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Speaker 2: I do have concerns that kids are playing on greens

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Speaker 2: more than is healthy. Did you get any data in

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Speaker 2: the poll about the screenplay stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the majority of kids most commonly will play

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Speaker 1: with the device, so that was around fifty five percent

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Speaker 1: of children will be playing with the device most days

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Speaker 1: of the week, and it was older you know, older

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Speaker 1: kids rather had a higher proportion, so you know, more

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Speaker 1: like three quarters of teens, and it was less common

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Speaker 1: in the younger children. And then alongside that was outside play.

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Speaker 1: Less than half of Australian children play outside most days

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Speaker 1: of the week. It's a bit more common among teenagers

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Speaker 1: and among little kids, so probably babies at the park

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Speaker 1: and you know teens in maybe getting out independently a

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Speaker 1: bit more. But through that primary school age group, you know,

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Speaker 1: certainly well under half of Australian kids getting outside most days.

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Speaker 1: So and that looked the same regardless whether they were

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Speaker 1: boys or girls, which was really interesting to us as well.

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Speaker 1: So a big reminder there about how important it is

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Speaker 1: for kids to get outdoors. You know, we know lots

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Speaker 1: of things and you know this well. I've heard you

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Speaker 1: talk about it before, the benefits of being in nature,

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Speaker 1: in the environment, and then of course that physically active

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Speaker 1: play that is much more likely to be happening if

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Speaker 1: you're outside. And related to that was where outside they play,

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Speaker 1: so you know, is it in your own backyard, is

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Speaker 1: it in your street, is it down the road? And

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Speaker 1: for families who had access to a backyard, most commonly

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Speaker 1: it was still at home. But for teenagers, we're seeing

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Speaker 1: that they're getting away from home. They you know, they

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Speaker 1: might be out at the park, and those primary school

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Speaker 1: age kids generally were less commonly outside. If they are,

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Speaker 1: it's still at home in the backyard. So you know,

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Speaker 1: primary school age kids roaming the neighborhood really isn't happening

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Speaker 1: like it used to when you look at the data

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Speaker 1: that we collected.

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Speaker 2: So Dr Rhodes, when we are talking about play, I

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Speaker 2: want to sort of go back to my childhood for

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Speaker 2: a second, which is probably inappropriate because we're not living

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Speaker 2: in the seventiesly eighties anymore. But I've got to ask anyway,

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Speaker 2: when I was a kid, I used to build billy

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Speaker 2: carts and ride them down steep hills, and I used

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Speaker 2: to make homemade skateboard ramps and damage and bruise my

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Speaker 2: body in all kinds of ways. And as I got

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Speaker 2: older and became a teenager, I used to catch the

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Speaker 2: bus to the beach and jump off the rocks and

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Speaker 2: go surfing in conditions that were not safe. Frankly, especially

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Speaker 2: for my limited ability. Are kids today taking risks like

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Speaker 2: we used to back in back in my day?

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Speaker 1: And look, you live to tell the tale justin so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've absolutely spot on. A really interesting finding from the

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Speaker 1: study was that around a third of parents feel a

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Speaker 1: play should not involve any risk at all. Wow. And

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Speaker 1: one of the main barriers to children getting outdoors to

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Speaker 1: play was concerns about safety in the environment. And when

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Speaker 1: we say safety, it's not strangers necessarily, it's other things

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Speaker 1: like accident injury, traffic, those sorts of risks. And we're

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Speaker 1: talking about older kids, you know, not young children, where

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Speaker 1: obviously there are genuine hazards and risks. You've got to

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Speaker 1: be really careful, but where we might say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: if you that up, it's probably okay, but parents often

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Speaker 1: in around a third of cases don't necessarily agree that

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Speaker 1: it is anymore. So things have changed, and our ability

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Speaker 1: to sit comfortably with risk when it comes to our

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Speaker 1: children has absolutely as a society shifted. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: always been a spectrum. There's always been the parent who

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Speaker 1: was not going to be allowing the things that you

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Speaker 1: were doing, and there's always going to be the parent

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Speaker 1: who's letting stuff go on that most parents won't, and

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Speaker 1: that's probably where all the kids end up, but they're

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Speaker 1: at Johnny's house. But you know, in terms of what

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Speaker 1: on average we feel comfortable with as a society, it's

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Speaker 1: really shifted away from risk. And one of the really

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Speaker 1: important messages I think in that is that actually risk

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Speaker 1: in play is a key part to how it's educational

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Speaker 1: and how children learn. So it's a bit experimental play,

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Speaker 1: as we've talked about, and by testing a boundary and

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Speaker 1: understanding if you've gone too far in a playful situation,

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Speaker 1: that's how you learn. So it's very important we're not

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Speaker 1: suggesting kids are put in situations where the risk is

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Speaker 1: really high and something is very hazardous, but where it's

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Speaker 1: just around the boundaries of comfort, you know, trying something independently,

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Speaker 1: getting out there by themselves, but you know, having a

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Speaker 1: plan for a safety net or a backup, having a

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Speaker 1: plan to what they'll do if it doesn't go right.

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Speaker 1: Then that way you're giving them a chance to learn

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Speaker 1: by testing things out.

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Speaker 2: One more question for you around play parents schedules, what

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Speaker 2: about just the extracurricular activities. I guess what I'm curious

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Speaker 2: about is whether or not you found to any evidence

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Speaker 2: of kids being overscheduled and the kids not having time

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Speaker 2: for play, let alone, the parents not being inclined to play,

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Speaker 2: any data around that that you found compelling and useful

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Speaker 2: for this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so definitely. You know about a quarter of children

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Speaker 1: parents reported they didn't have enough time for play because

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Speaker 1: they were busy doing other things, and commonly those things

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Speaker 1: involved shed activities. So there is no doubt that extracurricular

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Speaker 1: activities do impact on free play opportunities for kids some

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Speaker 1: parents had if you like a misunderstanding that scheduled sport

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Speaker 1: and arranged you know, training activities are play. They can

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Speaker 1: be playful, and they're certainly good for kids in other ways,

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Speaker 1: there might be lots of benefits there. I'm certainly not

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Speaker 1: suggesting kids shouldn't get out there and get involved in

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Speaker 1: community sport, but they're not generally play child led and

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Speaker 1: free in terms of a gender and activity in the

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Speaker 1: way that true players. So the learning and the benefits

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Speaker 1: and the experience are different. So it does suggest, you know,

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Speaker 1: our study, we're back to schedule activities. You know, they

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Speaker 1: all disappeared for a while in COVID, and we saw

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Speaker 1: much more traditional patterns of play happening. You know, kids

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Speaker 1: were back riding around the streets, they were digging holes,

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Speaker 1: they were you know, building things in trees, because all

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Speaker 1: that scheduled time activity you know, went away. So really

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Speaker 1: interesting to see that we pretty much swung right back.

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Speaker 1: Some families are still not doing as much as they

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Speaker 1: did before, you know, they maybe feel like they've found

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Speaker 1: a new balance, but then for others it's all back on.

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Speaker 1: So it's going to be different for every child and

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Speaker 1: every kid. But there's definitely consideration there that if you

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Speaker 1: fill time with stuff that's organized and scheduled, there's going

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Speaker 1: to be less time for the free activity, and that's

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Speaker 1: where some of the real learning happens when it comes

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Speaker 1: to play.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Anthea Rhodes, always a delight to talk to you,

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Speaker 2: Doctor Anthea Rhodes, thanks so much for joining me on

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Speaker 2: the podcast again.

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Speaker 1: My pleasure, justin great to chat as always.

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Speaker 2: That is doctor Anthea Rhodes. She is the director of

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Speaker 2: the Royal Children's Hospital Child Health Poll. Look forward to

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Speaker 2: having Anthea back on the podcast again real soon. Pediatrician,

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Speaker 2: mum of four and all round fabulous lady. Tonight. Just

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Speaker 2: a quick reminder tonight we've got a free webinar for

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Speaker 2: you if you want to be more resilient as a parent.

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Speaker 2: The webinar is on You can get all the details

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Speaker 2: via our Facebook page Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families. Free

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Speaker 2: webinar only thirty minutes, really short, really jam packed with

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Speaker 2: info designed to help you to become a more resilient parent.

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Speaker 2: Please join me for that free If in case you

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Speaker 2: missed the first three times I said it free webinar,

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00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 2: it's tonight. All the details are at our Facebook page

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Speaker 2: Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families