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Speaker 1: But joining me in the studio right now is Peter McMillan,

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Speaker 1: the CEO of NT Shelter.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, pere Katie. How are you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Really well, great to have.

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Speaker 1: You in the studio. And you and I have spoken

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Speaker 1: before about some of the issues we've got around the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory when it comes to housing. It does seem

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Speaker 1: to me as though the situation is becoming a bit

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Speaker 1: more acute. I think you might say. We've spoken a

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Speaker 1: little earlier this week to the Master Builders about the

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Speaker 1: scrapping of some of the incentives for first home owners to.

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Speaker 2: Get into that market.

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Speaker 1: Last week we spoke to Laws and Broad about some

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Speaker 1: of the concerns that people are having when it comes

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Speaker 1: to paying rent and and being able to actually access

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Speaker 1: rental properties. Again, this is something you and I have

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Speaker 1: discussed before. But Peter, where are we.

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Speaker 3: At well, Katie, there's issues right across the spectrum, and

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Speaker 3: maybe we're going to start with the lowest income people,

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Speaker 3: those that really can't afford to rent in the private market,

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Speaker 3: even if they can find a place to live, those

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Speaker 3: that can't afford it. So that's what public housing is

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Speaker 3: for public housing as we know, just isn't working. We

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Speaker 3: have around around thirty years of age for most properties.

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Speaker 3: Around eighty six percent of the public housing stock is

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Speaker 3: thirty years or older. It hasn't been maintained, it's run down.

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Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people can see that for themselves,

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Speaker 3: so that model's not working. We've talked a bit before

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Speaker 3: about community housing, which is a really important opportunity, and

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Speaker 3: we can come back to that if you wish to.

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Speaker 3: And then in the affordable market rent, these are people

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Speaker 3: like you know, many of your listeners that aren't working

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Speaker 3: in top dollar jobs, right, they're people that can't afford

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Speaker 3: the market rent. They can afford around maybe seventy five

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Speaker 3: to eighty percent, and that's where affordable housing comes in

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Speaker 3: as well. So there's a big shortfall of that. And

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Speaker 3: if we just look at someone else that was done

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Speaker 3: nationally recently, the estimation is that there's around seventeen thousand

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Speaker 3: houses that were going to need out to twenty thirty six.

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Speaker 3: So that's what's that fifteen years time for social and

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Speaker 3: affordable housing alone. Now, putting that to one side, we

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Speaker 3: then start to look at people that want to come

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Speaker 3: to the territory and make the territory their place. To live,

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Speaker 3: whether that be Catherine or Darwin or elsewhere. And we

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Speaker 3: had an example yesterday where one of our organizations in

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Speaker 3: Alice Springs had a CEO that was due to that

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Speaker 3: was going to sign on to a job and couldn't

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Speaker 3: find a place to live and decided not to come

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Speaker 3: across the NTE. Now, if we're trying to attract people

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Speaker 3: to live here, not everybody is going to take the

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Speaker 3: plunge come up and buy a house in a town

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Speaker 3: or city they haven't seen before. Right, They're going to

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Speaker 3: want to rent. I mean, I know that's what my

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Speaker 3: wife and I did when we came. We just thought

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Speaker 3: where would we buy and would we like it up here?

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Speaker 3: So renting is important. And when you have so many

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Speaker 3: stories and I think everybody just about that I've spoken

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Speaker 3: who has a story of a neighbor or a family

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Speaker 3: member where their rent's gone up twenty five percent, that's

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Speaker 3: a big problem because people are leaving the territory. I'm

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Speaker 3: sorry to say. You know, when we're trying to grow our.

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Speaker 1: Population, you know, that's something that really concerns me. We

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Speaker 1: talk so much about growing the territory and so much

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Speaker 1: about trying to grow our population, but if we've got

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Speaker 1: nowhere for people to live, it's simply going to be impossible,

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Speaker 1: isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, let's talk about population.

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Speaker 3: It's a figure that might not be on front of

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Speaker 3: everybody's mind, but maybe your listens will be a little

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Speaker 3: bit surprised to know that the Northern Territory Government, so

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Speaker 3: the Treasury and Finance Area, have projected a territory population.

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Speaker 2: In twenty forty six. That's twenty five years from now.

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Speaker 3: Sounds like a long time away, but they're actually looking

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Speaker 3: at three hundred and fifty one zerousand territories. Now, that's

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Speaker 3: an increase of forty three percent.

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Speaker 2: Where are they going to live?

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Speaker 3: Peter, Well, that's right. I mean, that's the obvious thing,

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Speaker 3: isn't it. I mean, you know whether those forecasts are

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Speaker 3: just at their forecasts, right, But even if they got

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Speaker 3: it out, if they got their estimation out by fifty percent,

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Speaker 3: you're still looking at, you know, a twenty five percent

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Speaker 3: increase in number of people. We've got to start building them.

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Speaker 3: We've got to start planning for that. What's interesting is that,

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Speaker 3: you know, Dave Malone and Master Builders are seeing reduction

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Speaker 3: in building certificates being issued under their Fidelity fund around

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Speaker 3: thirty months now, and it was up around seventy five

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Speaker 3: seventy to seventy five back in March. So there's no

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Speaker 3: doubt that work for tradees is coming off, and social

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Speaker 3: and affordable housing is the public is a perfect opportunity

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Speaker 3: now to start getting into because when the economy is down,

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Speaker 3: when demand for housing and confidence in your economy is low,

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Speaker 3: we know that we need to build this housing right,

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Speaker 3: and we need to there's a perfect opportunity now to

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Speaker 3: get on to some of that stuff to keep our

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Speaker 3: tradees and other labor force employed.

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Speaker 1: Peter, when you talk about social and affordable housing, can

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Speaker 1: you differentiate for us what that means, because quite often

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Speaker 1: people think when we say social and affordable housing that

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Speaker 1: it's just those public housing homes. But there is actually

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Speaker 1: different sort of tears or different different kinds of housing

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about here.

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Speaker 3: Isn't there That's right, So there's different categories. Maybe I

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Speaker 3: can just plaining lesh try and explain that for your listeners.

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Speaker 3: So public housing is of see, the housing that's provided

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Speaker 3: by the governments in each state and territory, and most

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Speaker 3: of our housing in a northern territory I think is

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Speaker 3: about ninety six percent is public housing that's run by governments,

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Speaker 3: but the other six percent is what we call community housing,

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Speaker 3: which is run by not for profit organizations that are

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Speaker 3: in the business of working with people, building communities and

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Speaker 3: also providing housing where they can get common rent assistance.

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Speaker 3: So the government, the territory government cannot get commonwealths rent assistance.

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Speaker 3: So that's money for low income earners up to one

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Speaker 3: hundred and seventy eight dollars per week up per fortnite rata,

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Speaker 3: depending on their circumstances, a number of kids, how much

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Speaker 3: rent they're paying. There's a macknus of maximum figure. But

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Speaker 3: the principle is you can't get that into the system

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Speaker 3: in a NORN territory when it's provided by public housing

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Speaker 3: providers by governments, but you can get that money. It's

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Speaker 3: around thirty one million dollars a year we're missing out

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Speaker 3: on by not having community housing deliver housing for those people.

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Speaker 3: So typically people in that category will play around twenty

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Speaker 3: five percent of their income as rent. It's it's for

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Speaker 3: people who are unemployed or other sort of income support.

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Speaker 1: Payments well presumably as well, if you've got people in

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Speaker 1: that market and they're not needing to go into the

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Speaker 1: public housing market. That it takes some of the stress

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Speaker 1: of public housing as well, does it.

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Speaker 3: So at that level is a substitute for public housing.

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Speaker 3: But they also these community housing providers also provide product

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Speaker 3: that's in the affordable housing markets. How affordable is typically

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Speaker 3: I think like I mentioned before, where say I'm, for example,

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Speaker 3: working in retail, I can't afford to spend five hundred

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Speaker 3: dollars or four fifty dollars a week on my rent,

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Speaker 3: but maybe I can pay eighty percent of it.

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Speaker 2: So there are programs. There is a subsidy, but there's.

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Speaker 3: A program where housing can be provided at better cost

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Speaker 3: than market and are there is a program that's been

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Speaker 3: around since almost since two thousand and nine. I think

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Speaker 3: it's being welln back, but there were actually official programs

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Speaker 3: for that across Australia.

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Speaker 2: And then so.

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Speaker 3: If we think of what we call as social housing,

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Speaker 3: it's really the combination of that community housing run by

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Speaker 3: a non government sector and public housing.

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Speaker 2: Katie, I've got a story as.

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Speaker 3: To why it's really important community housing, and we had

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Speaker 3: a session this morning with developers and architects and builders

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Speaker 3: in town community housing.

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Speaker 2: Providers because they're charities.

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Speaker 3: They can get big tax concessions right, they don't have

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Speaker 3: to pay gst you don't pay stamp duty. They can

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Speaker 3: get Commonwealth ren assistance. Modeling has shown that if you're

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Speaker 3: spending say one hundred million dollars on a housing program

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Speaker 3: that's spent by the government, you might get around two

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Speaker 3: hundred houses built if government does it, but if you

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Speaker 3: get community housing providers to do it, you can get

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Speaker 3: an extra fifty five houses. It's not a bad return

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Speaker 3: on your investment because these organizations can work with developers,

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Speaker 3: share the benefits of the tax deductibilities I have. And

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Speaker 3: also what's really important is thinking around what do we

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Speaker 3: want our communities to look like. Housing doesn't have to

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Speaker 3: be old rundown shacks. We want to build communities where

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Speaker 3: there's connected communities whereas there's the opportunity to have small

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Speaker 3: business there close to transport and a blend. I guess well,

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Speaker 3: people who are at normal price points that they can

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Speaker 3: afford to pay, as well as affordable housing, keyworker accommodation.

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Speaker 3: Really communities that are working effectively. We don't have that

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Speaker 3: at the moment, but now that Infrastructure Australia has recognized

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Speaker 3: housing for the first time as being key economic infrastructure.

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Speaker 3: That's a big tick for us all really in the

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Speaker 3: last week because now we can start having the conversation

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Speaker 3: that we just don't need to provide housing because people

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Speaker 3: don't have a home, and which is important obviously in itself,

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Speaker 3: but we can also start saying, if you're investing in housing,

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Speaker 3: it's just like any other infrastructure like roads, buildings, other

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Speaker 3: things that's going to help our economy grow and importantly

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Speaker 3: have some way for people to live when we grow

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Speaker 3: a population.

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Speaker 1: Well, when you were talking about that just a moment ago,

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Speaker 1: and you were saying, you know, when you talk about

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Speaker 1: retail workers and some of those different types of like

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Speaker 1: I've often thought that to myself with some of these

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Speaker 1: jobs that are quite difficult in terms of filling at

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Speaker 1: the moment, even you know, in hospitality in some other areas,

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Speaker 1: it would be really tough moving to the territory at

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Speaker 1: the moment unless you're a young person who can live

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Speaker 1: in a sharehouse or whatever.

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Speaker 2: There's no way to live, can I say?

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Speaker 3: You know, if you flick through those Facebook pages, you know,

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Speaker 3: dal on rentals and things like that, you'll see young

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Speaker 3: women in bikini's doing anything they can really just to try.

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Speaker 3: It's shocking really the lengths of people have to go

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Speaker 3: to to try and get a house above somebody else

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Speaker 3: at the moment, even to rent a room house.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that tough? Peter? You know we are going to

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Speaker 2: have to wrap up.

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Speaker 1: But where to from here? I mean, what do you

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Speaker 1: think realistically we need to sort of try to have

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Speaker 1: a look at right now to try and get things

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Speaker 1: moving from not just a conversation but to actually happening.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that's that's a very important question. First of all,

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Speaker 3: we need to have the right people in the room.

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Speaker 3: I was talking to Greg Island the Chamber of Commerce

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Speaker 3: yesterday about this, and we have conversation with Dave Malone

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Speaker 3: and the community housing sector and government.

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Speaker 2: All the time about this.

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Speaker 3: And what we're really pressing for is let's just get

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Speaker 3: a plan so that we can see where we're going

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Speaker 3: from here. You know, the government said they're going to

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Speaker 3: release I think it's I forget the number. I think

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Speaker 3: it's twenty four hundred lots down in the Parmer scenario

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Speaker 3: and also down in our springs. They're going to release land.

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Speaker 3: But what can we do to make sure we get

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Speaker 3: that right? So it's got the right infrastructure in place,

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Speaker 3: it's got the right amenity like shops and transport as well,

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Speaker 3: and it's got a mix of housing at different price

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Speaker 3: points that the population can afford.

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Speaker 2: So it's great.

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Speaker 3: The budget last yuphn Inity government referred to these land releases.

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Speaker 3: Let's get on with it and let's start getting people

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Speaker 3: around the table saying what'll look like and where we

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Speaker 3: can get the money from. There are options that won't

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Speaker 3: go into that today, but there are options, and we've

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Speaker 3: just got to roll up seat and keep moving on this.

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Speaker 1: Well. Peter McMillan, it does sound to me as though

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Speaker 1: you and I will probably have to have more regular

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Speaker 1: catchups because this housing issue, it is something that I

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Speaker 1: can see is becoming a bit more prevalent for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Katie. Look, it really is an opportunity.

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Speaker 3: I know it's a pretty bleak story for many people

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Speaker 3: out there at the moment, but you know, the territory

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Speaker 3: story can be positive. It needs to be positive, but

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Speaker 3: let's not leave housing out of the picture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good on you, Peter. Always great to catch up

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Speaker 1: with you. Thank you so much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: That's Peter McMillan there who is the CEO of NT

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Speaker 1: Shelter And look, it is a discussion. I think that

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Speaker 1: is well worth having