WEBVTT - Ciaran Flannery & Dan Brown: CLAREMONT: A KILLER AMONG US - EP & CREATIVE DIRECTOR 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:01.720 It's in the news today, but it was actually on 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:05.560 TV Reload the podcast last week Airline. Welcome back guys 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.360 to TV Reload. My name is Benjamin Norris, and on 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.039 this podcast I go behind the scenes with the biggest 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.160 players in television. Each episode you will get a front 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:18.640 row seat with content makers like executive producers, writers, editors, 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.040 and casting agents, plus the talent that we see on 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.520 our screens. TV Reload reloads the shows that you're currently 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.440 watching and gives you a better insight into our television 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:31.000 industry and our streaming services. Today on the podcast, I 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.520 have two guests joining me to discuss their extraordinary work 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.879 on the two part series Clamont A Killer amongst Us, 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.159 which debuted last night on Network ten and concludes this 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.400 evening at seven point thirty. The series will be available 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:46.479 on ten Play and if you want to catch up 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.080 on this brilliant documentary, I do suggest you do so. 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.640 I was lucky enough to preview this series and straight 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:55.600 away I lined up this chat with ten publicity. Dan 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.240 Brown joins me from Joined Up Films. He is the 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.600 executive producer creative to rector on the series and his 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:05.160 insights today and how we managed to produce this series 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:09.399 with empathy and integrity is fascinating. He is joined by 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.440 network Executive producer at Network ten, Kieran Flannery, who shared 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.480 Dan's vision for the story and should be really proud 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.760 of the finished product because it is first class storytelling 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.679 in the genre of true crime. The story of the 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.959 Clamont murders rocked Western Australia for decades with no resolution 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:29.760 and with many people aware of a killer walking amongst 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.440 their community. It is one of Australia's most notorious cases, 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.120 and while we have the men behind bars, there's a 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.920 lot to discuss as the series unpacks DNA technology, the 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:43.800 police's dedication, and it also includes stories from the victims 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.200 of these horrendous crimes. We will talk about the popularity 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:50.440 of true crime and why it's currently a phenomenon, what 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.520 sort of integrity was needed to tell the story properly, 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.440 some of the decisions in what makes the final cut, 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.800 and how they manage to get so many people to 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.800 be included in this series. However, let's get started with 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.960 today's guest. I'd like to welcome Dan Brown from Joined 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:09.280 Up Films and Karen Flannery from Network ten to TV Reload. 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.960 I have to tell that story was the tricky bet. 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.400 We didn't want to just do a straight retelling of 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:16.040 the event. 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.400 Today mark's the end of a dark chapter in its history. 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:21.960 But many questions from they unanswered. 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:26.000 In any true prime documentary about serial killings or murders, 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.919 of course, the victims and the families are massive focus, 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:29.960 and so they should be. 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:34.120 It all started decades agot. Young innocent women taken away 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:35.680 from their families are. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.040 Going to shock. I think there has to be a 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.280 really strong reason in your storytelling behind that. 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:43.240 How can he go thirty our years committing the most 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.880 painous crime. We had psychologists on hand to talk to 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:49.520 them to make sure that we were doing the right 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.679 thing by them. These girls got plucked from the quietest, 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.680 most trusting areas in Australia. The bar has been raised. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.000 You have to do these things well. They have to 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.000 be smart, They have to multi layers. 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:03.960 Hi, guys, thank you so much for coming on the 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:08.200 podcast and talking about Clamont a killer amongst us. We 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.079 do have two English accents here, so I'm going to 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:13.079 have to try and help the audience differentiate who I'm 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.160 talking to. But you know, we'll try and work it out. 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.200 Would you like me to do another accent. 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.359 If you can do the accent convincingly and it's not distracting, No, no, no, 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.359 be yourself. We have Dan Brown from Joined Up Films. 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.920 Thank you for joining us to talk about the Clamont Murders, 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:30.480 The Killer among Us, which did debut last night, and 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:32.799 we have a conclusion this evening on Network ten. 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:36.600 Oh look, it's such a I'm so delighted that you're interested. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:38.960 You know, you spend a lot of time coming up 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.560 with these ideas and a lot of time crafting them, 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:44.520 and then you put them out in the world and 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.640 you hope that they do well. And you know, the 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.800 response we've had so far has been fantastic, and the 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.000 fact that you're picking up on all of the nuances 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.640 that we've really spent a lot of time crafting is 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.600 really gratifying. So thanks for having us. 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:58.760 Well, this must have been under your skin for quite 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.520 some time and now people are finally getting to watch it. 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.440 Are you keen to hear what people have to say 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.160 after sinking their teeth into the next part this evening? 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.800 You always put these films out with a sense of trepidation. 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.920 You hope that you've done the best that you can 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.080 and you know that it's going to be received well. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.560 But it's been a long time. I think we've sort 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.240 of worked out maybe December twenty twenty is when we 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.000 went into paid development on this, so we started the 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.200 journey with ten around then. It took about a year 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:27.960 to you know before almost a year before it got 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.680 fully commissioned because we wanted to make sure we were 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.040 telling the right story for the right reasons. And then 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.920 it's you know, it's been we were at least six 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.520 seven months in the edits week after we'd filmed everything, 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.280 just really sort of crafting it. So it's been a 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:42.200 lot of hard work. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.080 We also have Kiaren Flannery from Network ten and you're 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.839 here to talk about your involvement. Hey, Benjamin how I 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.400 this story spans decades and has had Australians you know, 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:54.880 glued to all the twists and turns. Do you think 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:56.880 that for audiences out there, what do you think that 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.599 they're going to learn from this retelling of the story. 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.039 There's a lot in it, you know, with two ninety 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:03.640 minute episodes, it covers a lot of ground. But I 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.359 think the thing that sort of resonates the most for 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:10.400 me is really the human story of the investigators and 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.440 what they went through as well as I mean, in 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.400 any true crime documentary about serial killings or murders, of 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.400 course the victims and the families are massive focus, and 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:21.440 so they should be, and they are in this as well. 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:23.800 But I think the access that we had to the 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.880 investigators through WA Police was something that sets this documentary apart. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.320 And I think often you ignore the human toll it 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.279 takes on the people who are trying to find a killer, 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.880 especially when they can't find him or her, And for 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.120 me that is I think that, yeah, that human face 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:43.800 on the investigators is something that people will take away. 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.200 Did you know the story before you watch the documentary? 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.279 And we all know it to a certain extent, but 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.720 absolutely not with the detail, do you know what I mean? 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.680 Like you know, if you mentioned the Clamont murders, I 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.400 would know certain parts of it, but I absolutely didn't 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.719 know it was him, and so that was a revelation. 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.880 The variability of how much people know about the case 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.760 is huge, Like there are people who I think in 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:11.640 way everyone knows all about it, right, it's sort of 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.960 part of the discourse and almost popular culture over there. 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:16.760 But once you sort of get to the Eastern States. 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.400 It's kind of it's variable. Some people know it really well, 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:22.680 some don't. And I think the way that Dan's team 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.000 told the story is actually really clever because it's they 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:27.040 assume that you don't know anything, which is good. 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.720 It's the best way that you can make a documentary 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:31.560 like this, though, I think, is to assume that the 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.480 audience doesn't know everything and to take them on a journey. 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:36.760 And I think also having the time to do it 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:38.719 over two episodes was important. 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.000 There really was a lot to tell, and there was 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:43.760 a lot of nuance, and that's really what we wanted 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.239 to do was get to the heart of the emotion 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.280 of what it was like to be there, what it 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.599 was like to live through this, what it was like 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.200 to be one of the victims or the victim's family, 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.839 but also what it was like to be the police 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.560 who were investigating this, because you know, that's a pretty 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.080 teneteous effort to be able to solve this crime after 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.560 so long and there was so much pressure on their shoulders. 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.720 So to tell that story from a human perspective but 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:14.080 from all all department that was really the key, and 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.160 we wanted to be able to make this show and 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.520 be able to look at the families in the eye 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.440 and know that we had done this with dignity and 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.120 with respect, with empathy. You know, we spent a lot 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.600 of time crafting it, a lot of time in the 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:32.960 edits week, like, we held it back from going to 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:36.680 the network. I know, maybe a month, maybe two months, 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.760 a long time more than you know I've done on 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.880 anything else I reckon, because we just couldn't get this wrong. 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:45.920 It needed it was so important. 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.440 And you know, often when when when a production company 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.040 holds back from showing me something, it's normally not a 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.800 good thing. But in this instance, it was a really 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:56.480 really good thing, and it was great you know when 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.800 when and that extra time they took was well worth it. 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:00.920 You could tell that there was a lot of respect 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.800 for these people who had to talk about something that's 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:05.800 the hardest thing that's ever happened to them in their life. 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:10.080 It's respect as well. It's respect for the surviving victims. Obviously, 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.680 the way they are treated is very respectful, and there's 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.720 respect for the families because it's not about pouring over 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:19.160 you know what it's like to lose someone close to you. 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.160 It's not kind of that kind of gratuitous pouring over history. 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:25.160 But I think there's a lot of respect and empathy 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:26.880 for the police in the way that Dan and the 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:30.080 team tackled it. You know, the police don't shy away 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:32.800 from the fact that mistakes were made. With twenty twenty 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.560 vision in hindsight, you can always look back on a 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.480 case that long and find the places where they might 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.000 have done something different. But the documentary doesn't choose to 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:44.480 pick over that. It respects the fact that those police 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.240 officers cared deeply and they did their best, and I 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.200 think that really comes across and even where they can 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.160 look back and say we would have done it differently, 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:54.960 it's from a place of maximum effort. And I think yea, 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.800 the empathy really applies not just to the victims Batchel, 0:08:57.800 --> 0:08:59.719 to the investigators as well, which I think is quite 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:01.360 unique in this kind of documentary. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:04.439 Our starting point was the first people that we spoke 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:08.120 to were Wendy and Liz, So the surviving victims, and 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.040 that's some of the people I've worked with. Jacque and 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.120 Willinge and Lisa Dupenoa did a really good job of 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.600 developing relationships with those guys and really cared about them, 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.679 and we had psychologists on hand to talk to them 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:22.319 to make sure that we were doing the right thing 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.880 by them. This was going to be a cathartic and 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.760 useful experience for those guys, and I'm really sure that 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.040 it was, having spoken to them and seen them over 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.000 the journey. I remember we did a show reel, We 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.320 did a taste of Real to show Channel ten. You know, 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.640 Wendy and Liz, and their interviews were brilliant, really strong, 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.920 angry interviews. And then the second time we interviewed them, 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.160 they were still super strong, but some of the anger 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.040 had dissipated because they were being heard. That was one 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.720 of their biggest problems, that no one had been listening 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.199 to them. And you know, we had to balance their 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:01.360 story because they survived with the grief and trauma that 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:03.560 the other families went through, you know, and get the 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.120 balance in the storytelling right between those things. But it 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:11.240 was really that level of sort of how these crimes 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.960 were treated at the time, or how fences against women 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.960 were treated at the time, and how victims were often 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.880 treated back in times gone by, and how that has 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.520 now changed and is changing constantly. That was a really 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:28.160 important part of the film. It was sort of their underneath. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.000 It's not the main driver, but it was definitely a 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.400 big part of the story that we wanted to tell. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:36.840 The courage of these women to come forward. They had to. 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.480 Both of those women had to get suppression orders removed 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:41.640 to be able to talk. 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.640 What I thought was really impressive was creating a sense 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.040 of the time. I don't necessarily know whether or not 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:48.640 this man would have gotten away with what he got 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.480 away with. You know, now that we have the technology 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.199 that we have today, if that was real world now. 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.400 Yeah, I agree. One of the things that you said 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:59.720 earlier about the time and placing people back in that 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:03.760 time is really important because actually trying to solve these 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:08.880 crimes without mobile phones, without CCTV, without the internet. You know, 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.080 DNA was in its infancy when this was starting. This 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.240 is you know, almost a history of how to solve 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.280 crime at the same time. And I suspect that, you know, 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.920 there must be a lot of kind of nervous perpetrators 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.640 of crimes that now this technology is available, you're seeing 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.560 them solved. You're seeing more and more crime solved. But 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.679 that was really interesting to me because when you start 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:33.360 to look at it, you think, well, how did it 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.520 take this long and then when you look back at 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.360 what was available to those people, they did some amazing 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:43.920 stuff like they DNA swabs every taxi driver, police officer, 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:47.280 ambulance worker in path. I mean, that was at the 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:51.640 time just unbelievable. So and just the fact that you know, 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:54.520 when you start to make this film and you realize 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:58.080 that all of these the three women were from were 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:02.160 visiting one pub one one. This is a tiny, tiny 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.920 little community that was so close you know that everybody 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.400 knew everybody. So that made it an incredible story. 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.520 That's part of what I think probably makes this particular 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.439 case really resonate with an audience as well, that it's 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.839 that pub. There's a pub like that in nearly everyone's neighborhood. 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.200 There is that place that people gather. Whether you live 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.000 in the city or in the country somewhere, there's always 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:25.880 that place where you, as a youth, you'd go all 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.120 the time. That was the kind of the local as 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.760 it were, And I think Claremont as a place and 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.400 those pubs, they almost become a kind of a character 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.040 within within the documentary. And you know, the way that 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.040 Dan and the team sort of created a sense of 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.920 the nineties and what Perth was like back then. It 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:43.640 sort of feeds into this kind of scary sense that 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.040 it could have happened to anyone and it could have 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.200 been anyone, which is sort of where we got the 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:50.760 title for the film from as well. 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.200 Absolutely, I mean I think that was what it was 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.480 for me was I think we all think that we're smart, 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.040 you know, and we wouldn't let this happen to us. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.679 But it did happened, and it happened again and again, 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.160 and someone was getting away with it, so you know, 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.640 it does sort of you know, permeate with people who 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.720 are watching the show. You know, Dan, how did this 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:10.640 project come up for you? Because I know you moved 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:12.720 from quit Are you sorry you moved from England to 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:15.240 Western Australia. I don't know how did it come across 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:15.680 your desk? 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.760 Yeah? Well, I think at first sort of I knew 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.080 of the story, but didn't know that much about it. 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.440 And then when he was arrested after so long, that 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.480 just was a really remarkable ton of events and everybody 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.840 was interested in that story. But how to tell that 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.480 story was the tricky bit. You know. We didn't want 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.720 to just do a straight retelling of the events. All 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.400 of the work that we do generally has other sort 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.840 of societal layers to it. So it was finding the 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.720 way into that through, you know, in a different way. 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:52.280 So that's how it sort of and finding finding the 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.920 surviving victims and hearing their stories was a really that 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.320 then started us thinking about, okay, how we tell this 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:03.160 for it more intelligently, I think, But yeah, that was 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:06.080 we wanted to do something other than just the straight retelling. 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.000 We wouldn't have done it otherwise, we really wouldn't, and 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.240 we did even have you know, we thought long and 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.440 hard about doing it. Even when we were we could 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.560 do it, was you know, we had to do it 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.560 the right way. It was really weighed heavily actually on 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:25.200 our shoulders that every decision we scrutinized really carefully, even 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:30.720 down to yeah, we removed any sort of gratuitous words 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.240 from news reports. We cut out you know, naked body 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.280 or whatever it was. We just wanted to make sure 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.800 that we were we were just telling the essence of 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.960 the story and not backing over anybody's grief unnecessarily. 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.600 Karen, what was it about the Clamont murders that made 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:46.880 Network ten want to tell this story? 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.240 In many ways? I was the perfect test case for 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.120 the pitch, actually, because I had never heard of the 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.280 Clermont serial killing. So I moved to Australia eleven years ago, 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:57.760 so it was that in that perfect window where the 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.040 case had gone cold. Really, So when when and pitched 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:02.920 it to us, and I think two and a half 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.360 years ago now that the pitch first came to us, 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.480 it was completely fresh to me, and I was just 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.200 stunned by this story really, and you know, when Dan 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.480 told us it, it it was just a remarkable story. 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.640 And I went back and actually was at the West Australian, 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.200 I think, did a podcast and there was a lot 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.680 of episodes of this podcast. So I went home that 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.040 day after the pitch and put the podcast on and 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.480 I don't know how many hours of this I listened to, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.160 but I listened to dozens of hours, and I was 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.520 just completely hooked on the story. And I think immediately 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:34.040 it was obvious that this is a story that had 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.240 to be told. The timing was just right, with the 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.120 case finally being being ended and you know, the perpetrator 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.720 going to prison, and I think Dan's angle of telling 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:45.600 the story in a different way and not just retelling 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.040 it as a blow by Blow really resonated with us. 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.040 I think Dan mentioned a moment ago societal layers at 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.480 that time and still to this day. Of course, there's 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.360 a big topic around the way victims, particularly female victims, 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.480 are treated by the media and to a degree by 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.520 the police and society generally, and I think the timing 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.240 felt right to tell this story as well. 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.000 I'd love to know from both of you your thoughts 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.880 on the popularity of true crime, you know, and why 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.120 we have had a rise and popularity for this genre, 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.240 you know, both in podcasts and in television, you know, 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.360 what makes us so invested? Dan, I'll start with you. 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.400 I think anything on the edges of society or the 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:27.920 extremes of society is generally pretty interesting, you know, and 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.200 you want to feel safe, so you want to be 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.600 able to look at people who commit these kind of 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.240 crimes and think, well, that's not me, or they're different 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.200 to me, or they're a monster. And I think what's 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.120 really interested in this case is that it wasn't well 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.000 they were a monster, but they were just able to 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.960 survive in society. And that's the bit that I think 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.200 is really intriguing to people and why they want to 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.240 learn about cases like this because it just feels like 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.640 it literally was someone next door who was creating these 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.520 terrible events, and you kind of I think true crime 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.680 you want to be able to look at the perpetrators 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.760 and say they're different, because that makes you feel safer. 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.000 That's what I think I mean. And I think that 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.720 there is obviously, you know, there has been such a 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.960 large amount of really good true crime that has been 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:20.119 produced internationally. Now the bar has been raised. You have 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:22.600 to do these things well, they have to be smart, 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.840 they have to have multi layers. So I think that's 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.560 probably probably a combination of those things. There's a there's 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.000 a fascination in the worst of society. 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.399 Yeah, and look, there's there's a fascination fascination in the 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.879 people who perpetrate these crimes. But there's different types of 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.560 true crime documentary as well. You know, there are documentaries 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.800 that focus on those perpetrators and what is ticking underneath 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.160 it to make them do these things, But there's also 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.600 good old fashioned who done it? And I think you know, 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.480 audiences are well versed in in you know, procedural crime dramas, 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:55.960 and I think if you can apply those you know 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.639 that there's sort of the rules of procedural crime drama 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.840 to a real life story through documentary, You've got yourself 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.520 something that's even more engaging. Really so, I mean an 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:07.719 element of it is just people have a good old 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:08.719 fashion who done it well. 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.040 I think they feel like they can become invested. I 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.520 will share something with the two of you. And I 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.560 started listening to a series of true crime podcasts, and 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.240 after listening to them for a while, I realized that 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.320 all the ones that I was listening to at a beginning, 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.600 in a middle, and an end, and I needed that 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.960 somehow conditioned myself into needing that payoff at the end. 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.119 True. It's true of podcasts a lot, because so often 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.320 podcasts are coming out that are tackling a crime that 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.639 has just been reported or just happened, and you know, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:39.639 very often no one has been caught, or it's a 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:41.880 missing person and they haven't been found and maybe will 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.400 never be found. It's a fair point as well, because 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:46.160 I think this story probably wouldn't have come to us 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:48.960 if it hadn't come to a conclusion. I think that 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:50.960 is it is an important part. If you're going to 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.480 invest three hours of your week into a film, you 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:55.840 do want a satisfying ending. 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.120 I think I'm quite interested in as well, looking at 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.439 documentary versus scripted drama. You know, when it comes to 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.760 exploring and investigating real life events, do you have a 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:09.520 massive leaning preference to documentary over a retelling of real 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:10.119 life events. 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:12.720 Yeah, I certainly do. I mean, I'm you know, I'm 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.679 the sort of guy that only reads autobiographies and you 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.680 know anything that there's enough interesting real stuff out there 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.359 for me not to get too distracted by drama. And 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:23.800 I just think you're not to knock any dramas. And 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:25.520