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Speaker 1: Now, our next guest has been on the show with

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Speaker 1: us before, Mary Louise mclaus. She is a professor of

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Speaker 1: epidemiology at the University of New South Wales and an

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Speaker 1: advisor to the World Health Organization. She's become one of

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Speaker 1: Australia's most recognized and respected experts on the pandemic, and well,

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Speaker 1: like so many of her colleagues, she's at the forefront

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Speaker 1: of the battle to contain the spread of COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 1: But what exactly do epidemiologists actually do, how vital is

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Speaker 1: science as a whole in the fight against the coronavirus,

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Speaker 1: and what does the immediate future look like for us

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Speaker 1: in terms of living with this disease. We know that

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Speaker 1: National Science Week it actually kicks off this Saturday, August fourteenth,

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Speaker 1: and to talk about science, epidemiology and where we might

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Speaker 1: be headed, I'm pleased to have Professor Mary Louise mclaus.

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Speaker 2: Join me on the line right now.

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Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Professor Mary Louise mclaus.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, Katie. How are you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you so much for your time and

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Speaker 1: I know this is the second chat we've had we spoke.

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Speaker 1: You may recall a few or a couple of months

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Speaker 1: ago about Howard Springs the quarantine facility out there. When

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Speaker 1: some of those testing changes came into play, Mary lowise,

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Speaker 1: there will be people listening wondering what exactly is an epidemiologist.

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Speaker 3: Firstly, Oh, well, an epidemiologist news is a principle or

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Speaker 3: way of looking at information, looking at the facts. We

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Speaker 3: use maths or statistics, and we look for patterns that

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Speaker 3: could explain a disease patterns and what can prevent disease

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Speaker 3: and maybe you know, even what cures people. So at

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Speaker 3: w JO, I work with many different epidemiologists, and some

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Speaker 3: only work on vaccine trials. They because the vaccine trial

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Speaker 3: is a very complex study looking at adjusting effects for

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Speaker 3: age and gender and what you know, a variant of

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Speaker 3: concern is going around in the particular country where the

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Speaker 3: vaccine's being trialed, many many different things. Then there are

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Speaker 3: epidemiologists that work in cancer and try to work out

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Speaker 3: who's getting cancer, what are the causes, and maybe how

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Speaker 3: to stop it. So there are many different epidemiologists, but

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Speaker 3: we usually all use the same sort of principles and

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Speaker 3: a lot of statistics.

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Speaker 1: Now, how extensive would you say is the role of

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Speaker 1: science when we look at how we're fighting this pandemic

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen right now.

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Speaker 3: Oh look, science, science is used in everyday life, absolutely

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Speaker 3: everyday life, but when it comes to this pandemic. The

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Speaker 3: mask that you wear was developed by scientists. It's a

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Speaker 3: magnificent design. You don't realize if you have a spare

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Speaker 3: much ask a medical mask. Cut it up and have

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Speaker 3: a look inside. It's got a particular layer that kind

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Speaker 3: of repels if a virus does a particle does escape

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Speaker 3: through that first layer, it acts like a repellent so

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Speaker 3: it doesn't get through the next layer. And that third

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Speaker 3: layer is a nice soft layer against your face. So

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Speaker 3: it's a beautiful piece of work that science has developed.

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Speaker 3: Scientists have developed the alcohol based hand rub that cleans

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Speaker 3: your hands that you're offered at the entry point of

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Speaker 3: every shop. And it's not just alcohol. They've worked out

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Speaker 3: a particular solution so that it doesn't dry your skin

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Speaker 3: out and yet kills viruses. So they're just two things

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Speaker 3: that we use every day to fight the virus. I

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Speaker 3: haven't even started on the magnificent epidemiology and science of

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Speaker 3: vaccines and treatments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and you know our feeler zone now more

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Speaker 2: than ever.

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Speaker 1: We're probably realizing as Australians how important science is and

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Speaker 1: how important you know, people like yourself are as COVID

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Speaker 1: has struck and the world has really changed in so

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Speaker 1: many ways.

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Speaker 3: It has, and I'm really pleased to see that Australians

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Speaker 3: embrace science. I mean, we're I think we are one

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Speaker 3: of the best takers up of vaccines. I mean the

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Speaker 3: zero to five year old vaccine uptake is one of

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Speaker 3: the highest in the world and it's about ninety four percent.

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Speaker 3: So we're very good at embracing science, particularly for our health.

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Speaker 3: And I mean even in the science of dental flossing.

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Speaker 3: You know, dentists out there will say, yes, dental flossings

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Speaker 3: as important as brushing your teeth, and that was science

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Speaker 3: working out, you know, getting an observation and unbiased observation

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Speaker 3: that you know you need to get the food from

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Speaker 3: between your teeth well as on your teeth. So there's

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Speaker 3: science and everything. You know, we recycle, that's science and

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Speaker 3: we use those recycled items to make other items. So

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Speaker 3: you know, Australians don't realize that science plays so many

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Speaker 3: important roles in everyday life.

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Speaker 1: Mary Louise, We know that around the country at the moment.

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Speaker 1: You know, even right now in Canberra it's looking as

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Speaker 1: though they're going to head into a lockdown after the

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Speaker 1: ACT has recorded its first confirmed COVID nineteen case in

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Speaker 1: more than a year. We are anticipating that there's going

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Speaker 1: to be an announcement by their Chief Minister Andrew bar

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Speaker 1: a little bit later this morning. But we know that,

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Speaker 1: you know that we're seeing such sudden lockdowns around the nation,

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Speaker 1: and I guess it's got a lot of us wondering,

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Speaker 1: what really does the immediate future look like, say the

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Speaker 1: next one to two years, How do we live with

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Speaker 1: this and have our lives realistically changed forever?

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Speaker 3: Well, the one thing that epidemiologists do and what and

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Speaker 3: this will help to answer that question is we learn

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Speaker 3: about how human behavior impacts disease transmission. And I learned

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Speaker 3: that in my first pandemic of HIV and human behavior

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Speaker 3: can help or hinder the you know, the end of

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Speaker 3: a pandemic. So what will happen the next couple of

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Speaker 3: years will be really dependent on our behavior and trusting

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Speaker 3: the idea that vaccines work. I mean, having one dose

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Speaker 3: and the vaccine will save your life. It reduces hospitalization

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Speaker 3: by over seventy five percent. It reduces with one dose.

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Speaker 3: Even with two doses, you're up to about ninety five

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Speaker 3: percent reduction of hospitalization. And that's stunningly brilliant. One dose

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Speaker 3: cuts down household transmission, that doesn't always cut down transmission

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Speaker 3: out in the general community. Ness Sarily, we need that

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Speaker 3: second dose to cut down on acquisition and transmission of disease.

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Speaker 3: So behavior if we go and get vaccinated, we'll be

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Speaker 3: able to have life that won't necessarily be pre COVID,

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Speaker 3: but we'll learn to live with some impost of being

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Speaker 3: tested before we enter mass venues or go overseas, even

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Speaker 3: if we've been vaccinated, because some people who've been vaccinated,

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Speaker 3: even with their vaccine certificate, may still pose a risk

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Speaker 3: to others because they may have a low grade infection

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Speaker 3: because their body just has let them down. So it

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Speaker 3: won't be perfect in the next two years, but it

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Speaker 3: will be so much better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I'm always I guess you know, there

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Speaker 1: is still that vaccine hesitancy from some people in the community.

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Speaker 1: But you know, when you talk about it like that,

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Speaker 1: it does make me think, you know, we need to

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Speaker 1: get as many people out there vaccinated as possible. You know,

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Speaker 1: what would you sort of say to anybody listening this

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Speaker 1: morning who does still have that vaccine hesitancy.

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I'd say that I don't believe

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Speaker 3: that there's a lot of hesitancy. I believe that we

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Speaker 3: all make decisions differently. Some of us make decisions rapidly,

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Speaker 3: others make decisions watching those of us who make decisions

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Speaker 3: rapidly see that that decision and that behavior wasn't fatal,

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Speaker 3: wasn't dangerous. And there are those that make a lot

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Speaker 3: of life decisions slowly. But I'd ask them to please

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Speaker 3: understand that we don't have time for them to make

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Speaker 3: a decision slowly and carefully about the vaccine. We need

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Speaker 3: as many people in Australia vaccinated as possible because the

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Speaker 3: herd immunity needs to be very high, and to get

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Speaker 3: that we need as many many people as possible of adults.

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Speaker 3: But then we need to start focusing on the adolescent.

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Speaker 3: So I'd say to people who are worried and who

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Speaker 3: normally do make a decision to get vaccinated, please make

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Speaker 3: that decision fast so that we can get back to

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Speaker 3: a better lifestyle and better employment opportunities faster.

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Speaker 1: And Mary Louise, is that really you know why that

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Speaker 1: herd immunity is so important when talking about the fight

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Speaker 1: against coronavirus.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Just imagine if every one of us lined up

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Speaker 3: and every third person isn't vaccinated, the virus will find

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Speaker 3: that third person and sneak in and find the other

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Speaker 3: third person in the next row. Because herd immunity is

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Speaker 3: like building a wall, and we don't want that wall

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Speaker 3: to have any breaches in it. And the fewer people

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Speaker 3: that haven't taken up the vaccine the better, because there

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Speaker 3: will be those that just can't because of medical reasons.

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Speaker 3: So we need to allow them to not have the

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Speaker 3: vaccine for those important reasons, and the rest of us,

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Speaker 3: you know, produce a really really good wall of defense

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Speaker 3: to keep them from acquiring the infection and then that

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Speaker 3: infection potentially becoming a super delta for example, and then

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Speaker 3: breaching the vaccine wall. So we need to get adults

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Speaker 3: and adolescents vaccinated as soon as possible. Now build that

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Speaker 3: lovely war.

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Speaker 2: I did want to ask you just quickly.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned then that you know that you worked on

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Speaker 1: HIV when it was obviously a huge concern around the world.

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Speaker 1: I know that you are obviously a specialist in infectious diseases.

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Speaker 1: How do you think that COVID nineteen stacks up against

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Speaker 1: pandemics of say the past one hundred years.

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Speaker 3: Oh gosh, well, I'd like to take you back to

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Speaker 3: Justinian's plague and that was then five hundred a D

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Speaker 3: or five forty one AD that caught. That's twenty five

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Speaker 3: million lives. And then I'll take you to a more

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Speaker 3: recent outbreak in say nineteen sixty eight, when we had

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Speaker 3: what was called Hong Kong flu that killed fifteen percent

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Speaker 3: of Hong Kong population at the time. That was just horrendous.

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Speaker 3: And then you know, moving closer to home, you know

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Speaker 3: there's of course HIV has killed thirty six million people.

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Speaker 3: But it's very hard to compare pandemics for the impact

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Speaker 3: because just even over the last hundred years, our modern

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Speaker 3: medicine has stepped in and stopped people from having chronic

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Speaker 3: diseases that can then tip them over to death when

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Speaker 3: they do get a novel virus. So it's very hard

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Speaker 3: to compare. But we just want to save every life

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Speaker 3: that we possibly can. And while this has often been

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Speaker 3: compared to with say, you know, heart disease that usually

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Speaker 3: impacts mostly the middle age and older, but this current

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Speaker 3: virus has always been mostly shouldered by young adults, and

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Speaker 3: the way we've vaccinated is to protect the elderly and

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Speaker 3: the vulnerable, leaving our young adults very vulnerable and we

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Speaker 3: do not want them to get long COVID. We do

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Speaker 3: not want them to get sick. They are our future

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Speaker 3: leaders and our future hope. So I think it's more

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Speaker 3: about who's getting this, it's the young, and let's protect

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Speaker 3: the young.

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Speaker 2: Well, Mary and Louise mcclaus.

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Speaker 1: Obviously we're chatting to you because it is Science Week

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Speaker 1: next week or it kicks off on Saturday. I know

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Speaker 1: that people are really being encouraged to get involved in

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Speaker 1: events well, whether they're in person or online. Where can

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Speaker 1: people head to for more information and to find out

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Speaker 1: about some of those great events.

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Speaker 3: Well, you can go to www dot science, one word,

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Speaker 3: dot net, dot au and you can see lots of

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Speaker 3: great activities and lots of other scientists having impacts in

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Speaker 3: your daily life without you even realizing and seeing what

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Speaker 3: other scientists do and enjoy science.

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Speaker 1: Well, Mary, Louise mclaus, it is always great to talk

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Speaker 1: to you, incredibly fascinating. I really appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having your chat with us.

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Speaker 3: It's a great pleasure and enjoy Science Week and thank

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Speaker 3: you for having me on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: That is Professor Mary Louise mclaus there, and as you've heard,

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Speaker 1: we know that she's a professor in epidemiology at the

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Speaker 1: University of New South Wales and an advisor to the

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Speaker 1: World Health Organization. And yes, Science Week kicking off on Saturday,