1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense. Hello and welcome to the 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: Daily OS. 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: I'm emma. 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: During this summer break, we're taking you on a stroll 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 2: down memory lane with a rotation of our best and 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 2: most interesting deep dives from twenty twenty four. How on 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: earth did we pick just a few? We've somehow managed 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 2: from tax to online box and everything in between. We've 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 2: got you sorted for your summer road trip, whatever else 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 2: you might be doing over the break. Welcome to tda's 12 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: summer series. One of the biggest news topics that I 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 2: have seen floating around this year is about Australia's birth rate. 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: Is Australia in a baby recession? Well, we wanted to 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: get to the bottom of this topic. What does it 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: actually mean, what is a baby recession? And what doesn't 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: mean for Australia's future. I really enjoyed putting this episode 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: together because we spoke to the incredible doctor Liz Allen. 19 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: She is a demographer at the Australian National University and 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 2: numbers are her life, her career, but she is also 21 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: an expert at breaking down those numbers to explain what 22 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: declining birth rates actually mean, What lessons we can learn 23 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,279 Speaker 2: from overseas about low birth rates and what's really going 24 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: on in Australia and if it matters. Here's my chat 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: with doctor Liz Allen. Doctor Liz, welcome to the podcast. 26 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. This is a first for me. 27 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: I'm very excited. 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 2: We're very excited we're talking birth rates today. Now before 29 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: we get stuck into this analysis from KPMG, what are 30 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 2: birth rates? Why are they an important insight into population? 31 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: So with this latest report from KPMG, there are talking 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: about two different things, talking about berths, the number of 33 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: live berths, and we're also talking about the total fertility rate. 34 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: So the total fertility rate is the number on average 35 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: a woman is expected to have over her lifetime if 36 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: the current rates of age specific fertility rate apply. So 37 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: it's this synthetic kind of almost like an average number 38 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: of children, and so that gives us an indication of 39 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: the rate of berths, how that changes over time and 40 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: so on. And to add into this mix, we've got 41 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: this level of two point one, which is considered the 42 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: replacement level of total fertility. So if we are above 43 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: two point one, we are exceeding replacement the replacement of 44 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: mum and dad, and that point one is to account 45 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: for mortality. If we're below that, the population by way 46 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: of births is not replacing itself. That's how the theory goes. 47 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: In Australia, we have been below what's considered replacement level 48 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: since the nineteen seventies, so we've seen over time a 49 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: decline in the total fertility rate, which means that we're 50 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: not replacing ourselves. 51 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: So when we talk about replacement, is the idea that, 52 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: you know, taking out all other factors like migration, that 53 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: if we met the replacement rate, the Australian population would 54 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: stay the same. 55 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: That's how the theory goes. And so if you think back, 56 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: Peter Costello in the early two thousands basically said have 57 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: a kid for a kid for dad, and a kid 58 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: for the country. And so that's that idea of the 59 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: of the replacement rate and the reason treasure is a 60 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: whole kind of focused on the total fertility and we 61 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: know that the current treasurer a little while back even 62 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: said that it would be good if the if the 63 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: birth rates will hire. That's because the government's bottom line 64 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: in terms of budget is fed by way of individual 65 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: income tax, in its largest share. So if we want 66 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: to maintain our living standards and ensure that we've got 67 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: enough government money to ensure our country is going well, 68 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: we need an appropriate number of people paying their individual tax. 69 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: We also need a robust workforce to just service the population. 70 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: But that's generally the crux of the economic arguments. 71 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: So we're talking about this KPMG analysis that says Australia 72 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: is in the midst of a quote baby recession as 73 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 2: berths across the country fall by four point six percent 74 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: year on year. Baby recession is not language that I 75 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 2: have heard before this point. What does that actually mean? 76 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: And should we be scared? 77 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: So first these first, there's a lot of sensationalism here. 78 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: So birth recession is not a technical term. Neither is 79 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: baby drought. You know, all of those really kind of 80 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:25,559 Speaker 1: emotive phrases are not technical terms. What we are seeing, though, 81 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: across geography are different rates of births and so we 82 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: see and this is not new in a city areas. 83 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: In capital cities, we see very low fertility, depending on 84 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: the geography you use to classify it. Sometimes it sits 85 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: even below one birth per woman on average. Now that's 86 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: because of the demography of the population in these areas. 87 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: These areas are young people, these areas are working population, 88 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: and so on. Then as we move out to the suburbs, 89 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: this is where we see higher rates of total fertility rates, 90 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: still under what would be considered a replacement level in 91 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: most places in Australia, and then as we go further 92 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: and further from the capital city, the fertility rates tend 93 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: to increase. Now, why does that matter in its own right? 94 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: It matters not Okay. What does matter though, is if 95 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: we are thinking about the inequalities experienced across geography, and 96 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: if we're thinking that parents are spending longer in their commute, 97 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: that's of course going to impact family wellbeing and have 98 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: consequences for all many of things now and into the future. 99 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: The other front goes to the heart of this idea 100 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: of a baby drought. Now, when we say have one 101 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: for mum, have one for dad, and have one for 102 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: the country, we are essentially hearing politicians say, ladies, get 103 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: down a business, give the country and do what you're 104 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: good for. And that's really really a major source of 105 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: gender equality, right, And then we see these tropes of 106 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: world those ladies are preferring a career and a job 107 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: and status, and they prefer to go flying across the 108 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: world and have babies. That's not the case. That's not 109 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: what we're seeing, and we can see a whole range 110 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: of data that supports that. At the core is what 111 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: troubles me most. And if we really want to talk 112 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: about a baby drought, let's talk about this current contemporary 113 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: Australian life presents insurmountable barriers for people to achieve their 114 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: desired families. What is happening is that previous generations have 115 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: stuffed the joint to the point where we've got climate boiling, 116 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: we have an out of control cost of living crisis, 117 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: gender equality that is nowhere close to being rectified, and 118 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: we have housing affordability that means people are living in tents. 119 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: Families are living in tents to deal with this crisis. 120 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: That's what the now is like. So young people are saying, 121 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: and especially women are saying, we can't possibly morally and 122 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: ethically have our desired family because what will become of 123 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: these children and what will the world become in the future. 124 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: That's my concern. 125 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: So you're suggesting that maybe it's not the fault of 126 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: any younger person or any person considering starting a family, 127 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 2: but that we're talking a couple of generations ago. That 128 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 2: the foundations laid then, and there are the problem today. 129 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: Indeed, we have a contemporary society whereby you must have 130 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: a duel income to survive. You know, you must have 131 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,239 Speaker 1: established a career in order to be able to survive financially. 132 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: So in actual fact, we are seeing the delaying of 133 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: first birth to the point where then the ability to 134 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: have subsequent children is reduced. So all of these things 135 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: are happening and so on. It's just getting even more complex. 136 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 2: I want to zero in a little more on these findings. 137 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: The number of births in twenty twenty three was the 138 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: lowest since two thousand and six. Why is that? What 139 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: has changed? Obviously we have these broader trends of cost 140 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: of living, climate concerns, But what happened in two thousand 141 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 2: and six? What was that drop? Are there any lessons 142 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: from that time? 143 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: So in around two thousand and six there was the 144 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: Costello conversation there we even had a baby bonus. We 145 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: had a lot of media commentary about the wrong kind 146 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,959 Speaker 1: of woman was getting knocked up so she could have 147 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: a plasma. TV plasma was all a rage and technology. 148 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: At the time, no women were not having plasma TV babies. 149 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: What happened was with the big boom post war, we 150 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: then saw an echo of birth rates and births as 151 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: these generations came down the line. So that's essentially what 152 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: occurred at that time, and so part of it's a 153 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: historical thing. The other thing, too, is looking at the 154 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: prospects of heading into what's considered ultra low fertility. Ultra 155 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: low fertility rate is not whether or not you can 156 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: have a baby, it's the outcome of a live birth. 157 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: If we get to the point of ultralow total fertility, 158 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: we're in the situation of a very stubbornly low, unbudgetable 159 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: total fertility rate. Think Singapore, Think Japan, think South Korea. 160 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: Once we reach that, we can't come back from it. 161 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 1: So the goal would be to put in place policies, 162 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: rhetoric even to arrest that decline. 163 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: What does that look like if we continue on the 164 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: trajectory or the downward trend that you've articulated, what does 165 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 2: that actually mean for life in Australia. 166 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: There will become a point in around about the twenty 167 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: fifties in Australia where deaths will exceed berths. That's how 168 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: we're tracking at the moment. We'll have more debts than 169 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: we will berths. So the landscape of our population and 170 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 1: the population dynamics will change. Essentially, if we kind of 171 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: take a step back, this is what we're in for. 172 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: Potentially living standards go backwards. So in other words, we're 173 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: doing more with less by way of caring for our 174 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: aging population, less money coming in via individual income tax relatively. 175 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: Then we've got a government going, okay, what are we 176 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: going to do? How are we going to divvy up 177 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: these competing demands and so on, And then so we've 178 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: got this kind of perfect storm of a great uncertain 179 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: reality with a corrupted narrational bargain whereby the Australia we're 180 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: given to our generations coming through is perhaps not the 181 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: same as that experienced in the past. And so we've 182 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: got this terrible situation of Australia with an uncertain future. 183 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: You've touched on this a little bit already, but the 184 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: KPMG analysis included a breakdown of how births have shifted 185 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: in capital cities. A particular standout, of course Sydney, where 186 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: birth dropped eight point six percent, the most expensive city 187 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: in the country. But we can't all, you know, pack 188 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 2: our bags and move to the regions. We've seen even 189 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 2: property prices in those parts of the country fluctuating and 190 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: becoming unaffordable because so many people decided to do that 191 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: kind of around the pandemic. So what do we do 192 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: with that data? You know, when we know that yes, 193 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: you live in an unaffordable part of the world, what 194 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 2: happens next. 195 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: Well, it's not necessarily the housing that you're in that 196 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: determines whether or not it's affordable. Often we will live 197 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: in particular areas because of our circumstances. So we've got 198 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: to be careful about causality here. But certainly there are 199 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: very successful populations that do well with apartment living, and 200 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: we've kind of shunned that. We've avoided it, and in fact, 201 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: our cities are built in a way that doesn't really 202 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: accommodate that kind of living. So we need to get 203 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: to the point where we really consider a reimagination of 204 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: the way that we live, the homes that we live in, 205 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,119 Speaker 1: what that looks like, and so on. But more importantly, 206 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: something else has got to give, and it's got to 207 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: stop being individuals. We need to see drastic change those 208 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: four key areas, housing, affordability, cost of living, gender equality, 209 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: and climate change. Now we will hear governments say, well, 210 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: we don't have the money for that, right, Well, you 211 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: can't afford not to do anything. You've got to do something, right, 212 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: so do it now, fund it like you mean it. 213 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: And in the absence of being able to fund it 214 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: like you mean it right now, change the rhetoric. Start 215 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: talking about a hopeful future. We must see policy and 216 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: practice keep up with the reality of today's demands. And 217 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: it's not. And then what's happening is it's falling to 218 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: individuals to do what politicians and policy makers have failed 219 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: to do, and that's take responsibility. And that, to me 220 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: is the drought right there, the paucity of support. 221 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: Doctor Liz. Before we let you go, I feel like 222 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: maybe some of our listeners might be remembering a chat 223 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: that we had earlier this year when Australia's population ticked 224 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: over to twenty seven million people. There was a lot 225 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 2: of talk around that milestone. Paranoia, if you will, the 226 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: population panic that you discrib when we talk now about 227 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: falling birth rates and this sort of urgent need for 228 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: governments to respond to falling birth rate, whilst at the 229 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: same time we have some conversations in parts of society 230 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: about there being too many people in Australia. What is 231 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: all that about. 232 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the problem is and you're right, there will 233 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: be many that herald this. They'll say, Okay, we're having 234 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: fewer babies. That's great. But this is coming from generations 235 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: who have had their go they've had their kids, they've 236 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: raised their families, and now they're saying to the future 237 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:40,119 Speaker 1: of us, sorry, the boats full. It's a really dangerous 238 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: territory to be in. But the way that we fix 239 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: this is through innovating our way out of it, and 240 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: that includes ensuring that there is a future demographic future 241 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: for Australia. We are now in a situation where it 242 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: is too difficult to have a child. Imagine if we 243 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: told a baby born today and by the way, you 244 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: will never be able to have a baby because it's 245 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: just too hard. Is that really fair? Now? Not all 246 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: people want to have kids, but for those that do, 247 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: surely that he's an enormous marker of arta failure. Their 248 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: future must be certain and we must invest in it now. 249 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: Doctor loz Allen, thank you so much for your time 250 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: a pleasure as always to really appreciate you breaking this 251 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 2: one down for us. Thank you, thank you so much 252 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: for listening to tda's summer series. We will be back 253 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: with another best of Deep Dive tomorrow. Until then, have 254 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: a good one. 255 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Runda 256 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigo Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 257 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 258 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 259 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: Strait island and nations. We pay our respects to the 260 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.