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Speaker 1: It's a Happy Families podcast with doctor Justin Coilson, where

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Speaker 1: Luke and Susie parents of three little boys, and this

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Speaker 1: is the podcast for those of us who are time

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Speaker 1: poor parents but just one answers now.

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Speaker 2: Melissa sent us this message. She said, my child, who

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Speaker 2: is five, was punched in the face by another boy

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Speaker 2: same age at school. I've said that I'll step in

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Speaker 2: if something is not done, but how far should we go?

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Speaker 2: When should we step in by not doing something? I

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Speaker 2: feel like I'm telling my child that it's okay to

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Speaker 2: have people walk all over you. I don't know whether

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Speaker 2: the mother knows or not. It is a five year old,

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Speaker 2: for goodness sake, How and when should I step in?

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Speaker 2: Doctor Justin Coulson is joining us happy families dot com

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Speaker 2: dot au. This is not a happy family situation. This

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Speaker 2: is a This is a mum who doesn't know the

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Speaker 2: right thing to do. And you know what I reckon

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Speaker 2: this four or five six years old is where we

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Speaker 2: as parents learn so much about about this very question.

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Speaker 2: When do we step in and when do we let

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Speaker 2: our children figure stuff out?

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Speaker 3: I think it's a sign of the very best parents,

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Speaker 3: the ones who know when to step in and the

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Speaker 3: ones who know when to step back, the ones who

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Speaker 3: know when to talk, and the ones who know when

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Speaker 3: to just be quiet.

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Speaker 4: This is sounding like Kenny Rodgers to hold him, to

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Speaker 4: walk away? No, when to run the parenting skills.

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Speaker 2: I've learned in my time as parenting that there is

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Speaker 2: some value to the kids law, letting children figure some

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Speaker 2: things out by themselves.

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Speaker 3: And and but I've got to say, when when a

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Speaker 3: five year old punching another five year old in the face,

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Speaker 3: time it's time.

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Speaker 5: To step in. Years have got to be involved in this.

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Speaker 4: Ye, well, we say, we say so.

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Speaker 6: The question is about when, when and how she should

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Speaker 6: step in. What does stepping in look like? Because I

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Speaker 6: guess on impulse, if your five year olds been punched

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Speaker 6: in the.

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Speaker 3: Face, you can find that five years old, you hold

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Speaker 3: them against the wall.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, too far, it's usually sue. But what stepping in

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Speaker 4: actually look like?

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Speaker 5: I think that it depends. It depends so much on

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Speaker 5: the situation.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if it happens in the backyard, then you

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Speaker 3: step in and then you deal with it right there

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Speaker 3: with the child, or perhaps the parents are there and

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Speaker 3: you talk to the parents and say, we need to

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Speaker 3: interact and we need to figure this out together. We've

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Speaker 3: got to you know, this is not okay. If you're

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Speaker 3: in a public place like a park, the situation's different.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps their parents look far too scary, and when you

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Speaker 3: walk towards them to talk about it, they grimace at

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Speaker 3: you menacingly, and you get your child, get your keys,

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Speaker 3: and you get in the car.

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Speaker 5: Or maybe they'll actually.

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Speaker 3: Come running as well and say, oh my goodness, and

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Speaker 3: they won't be able to believe that their child's done that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think in that scenario where we're there

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Speaker 2: and we see exactly what happens, it's almost easier to

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Speaker 2: determine when to step in and when not. But what

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Speaker 2: if it happens at school. You didn't see what happened

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Speaker 2: around the event. You only heard from your child that

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Speaker 2: they got punched in the face from another child. You

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Speaker 2: don't know, as in Melissa's case, whether the other mum

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Speaker 2: even knows that their child did this.

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Speaker 5: What do you do? This is where it gets really tricky.

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Speaker 5: The school's got to be involved.

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Speaker 3: But I think one of the other challenges that we

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Speaker 3: face here before we go jumping to conclusions. And I'm

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Speaker 3: sure that Melissa and her family are wonderful, but we

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Speaker 3: don't know, and this is not about blaming the victim.

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Speaker 5: Getting punched in the face is.

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Speaker 3: Not acceptable, end of story ever, But it's also important

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Speaker 3: for us to understand what's going on in the relationship,

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Speaker 3: what's going on with that child, what's going on with

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Speaker 3: our child.

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Speaker 5: So I would want.

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Speaker 3: To be sitting down or having the school sit down

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Speaker 3: to really get what's going on. Has my child been

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Speaker 3: unknowingly upsetting the other child and is there something that

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Speaker 3: my child can learn from this. I just want to

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Speaker 3: make sure that my child's doing the right thing. Again,

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Speaker 3: not blaming the victim here, but just making sure that

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Speaker 3: my child's doing the right thing. Second thing that we

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Speaker 3: want to do is the school's got to have some

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Speaker 3: sort of a plan for responding to a child who

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Speaker 3: is violent and aggressive. Now, this is the domain of schools,

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Speaker 3: not the domain of parents. It's happened at school, the

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Speaker 3: school needs to be able to deal with it, and

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Speaker 3: this should especially at the age of five. This should

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Speaker 3: usually involve the school letting the other parent know that

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Speaker 3: this is what's gone on. It's so important though, that

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Speaker 3: when that child goes home that mum or dad you know,

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Speaker 3: of the perpetrator, don't say right that's it.

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Speaker 5: I'm going to put you through the world. You don't

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Speaker 5: behave like this because I wonder where the kid's learning

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Speaker 5: it from. If that's the case.

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Speaker 3: As parents, if our child's are the boy, if our

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Speaker 3: child's the aggressive one, we need to be able to

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Speaker 3: sit down with that child and find out, well, where

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Speaker 3: did this come from?

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Speaker 5: Who showed you this? Have you been? Have you been

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Speaker 5: watching too many superhero movies?

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Speaker 3: Research shows that boys in particular are much more likely

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Speaker 3: to be who exposed to those movies are much more

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Speaker 3: likely to be violent. They don't pick up the pro

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Speaker 3: social cues from the superheroes. They just get the violence.

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Speaker 3: Or have they got a big brother or sister who's

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Speaker 3: been beating them up? Or are they seeing some sort

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Speaker 3: of violence in the home. Where has this come from?

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Speaker 3: Maybe maybe they have some sort of a psycho pathology,

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Speaker 3: some sort of psychological challenge that.

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Speaker 5: Is impacting on their behavior.

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Speaker 3: We need to understand what's going on in the background

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Speaker 3: before we jump to conclusions and say this kid's are

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Speaker 3: bad kid.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and before even all of those like there's this

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Speaker 6: assumption that they've picked it up from somewhere. I can

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Speaker 6: talk from my perspective, not as a five year old,

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Speaker 6: but as older, I never saw violence in my home whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: And did I watch some movies, Yes, But I was a.

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Speaker 6: Violent young teen, But I don't know that I can

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Speaker 6: actually put it down to what I witnessed or saw

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Speaker 6: as much as just an almost human instinct to someone

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Speaker 6: who was scared. What I did was I actually tried

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Speaker 6: to attack before I felt like I was. In hindsight,

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Speaker 6: I can look at that now. There was fear going

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Speaker 6: on in my life. There was instability. There was this relational.

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Speaker 4: Stuff that made me act out in a certain.

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Speaker 6: Way that wasn't wasn't because I was a bad kid,

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Speaker 6: or wasn't because I was naturally a violent kid or picked.

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Speaker 4: Up habits per se. I was just trying. It was

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Speaker 4: almost a self defense mechanism that was kicking in for

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Speaker 4: me teenager.

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Speaker 3: Developmentally, there's a big difference between a five year old

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Speaker 3: and a teenager. And while it's still not acceptable even

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Speaker 3: in a teenager, we have some fairly sound developmental understanding

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Speaker 3: as to why that might be occurring.

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Speaker 5: But for a five year old, it's not really.

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Speaker 3: Normal behavior unless there's been some sort of modeling, or

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Speaker 3: unless the child is frightened, scared, or very very upset, sad, worried,

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Speaker 3: you know, and they're lashing out because of that.

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Speaker 6: And let's face it, we've had three boys go through

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Speaker 6: the five year old phase and just because they say

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Speaker 6: someone punched them in the face, because we've witnessed the

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Speaker 6: times where they said my brother punched me and he didn't.

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Speaker 6: He turned around in his shoulder brush their cheek accidentally,

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Speaker 6: and it was a very different thing that we saw

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Speaker 6: to what they just said, such.

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Speaker 5: A boy thing.

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Speaker 3: Because I've got girls right now, I've had I've had

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Speaker 3: five of my six girls go through that same age group,

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Speaker 3: and I've actually witnessed this where one of the girls

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Speaker 3: walks past the other one and she goes because boys,

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Speaker 3: boys punch right, boys are Boys are a lot more physical.

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Speaker 3: Girls are a lot more verbal. And I've heard one

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Speaker 3: of the girls say to the other one. But as

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Speaker 3: soon as she says that, the other girl goes, Dad,

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Speaker 3: she just called me an idiot. She didn't say anything

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Speaker 3: like that, she just said And they do they now.

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Speaker 3: And again I'm not saying that Melissa's little boy is

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Speaker 3: like punching the face. He may very well have been,

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Speaker 3: but it's so important that we understand what's going on.

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Speaker 4: As some questions. Before we ask the questions.

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Speaker 3: Get the school involved. If it's happened at school, trust

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Speaker 3: the teachers to deal with it. But we want to

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Speaker 3: make sure that that child last point really important. We

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Speaker 3: want to make sure that the school and the parents

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Speaker 3: of that child are focused not on hurting him but

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Speaker 3: on helping him.

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Speaker 6: Yes, yes, absolutely, And this is such a thing because

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Speaker 6: we don't want to make a big deal of something

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Speaker 6: that turns out to be nothing. And so we can

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Speaker 6: almost feel like if we get the school involved in

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Speaker 6: the other kids parents involved, and it turns out it

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Speaker 6: actually wasn't that big a deal, Like we've made an

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Speaker 6: awkward situation for another kid because we've overreacted. But what

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Speaker 6: you're saying is like, if we ask some questions, if

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Speaker 6: we have some conversations, and we have the focus on

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Speaker 6: let's just let's understand what's going on first and foremost,

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Speaker 6: then it's actually not a big deal. It's just it's

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Speaker 6: you know, sort of learning process for even the adults.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Look, being punched in the face, I still think is

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Speaker 3: a big deal, but we don't want to make it

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Speaker 3: huge and we don't want to turn this child into

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Speaker 3: the into believing that he or she is.

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Speaker 5: A is a bully.

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Speaker 3: What we really want to move towards and the end

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Speaker 3: goal here is helping the aggressor and the victim to

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Speaker 3: have a son of empathy, to be able to take

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Speaker 3: the other person's perspective, not just in this scenario, but

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Speaker 3: in all scenarios moving forward, so that people can be

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Speaker 3: a little more compassionate, a little kinder.

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Speaker 5: Even at the age of five.

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Speaker 3: They can think, hmm, this person's feeling like that, and

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Speaker 3: this is a better way to behave Okay.

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Speaker 6: So we're getting the school involved, we're getting the other

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Speaker 6: child's parents involved, and we're having this conversation. Let's say

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Speaker 6: at the end of that, everybody else says or says

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Speaker 6: the right things, and then nothing happens and there's no

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Speaker 6: ongoing and you feel like maybe it's not been taken

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Speaker 6: as seriously as it should have been.

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Speaker 4: Then like how much do you escalate?

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Speaker 6: And how you because because this is the thing, Like

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Speaker 6: it's all okay while everybody else is doing what we

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Speaker 6: think is appropriate, but we don't get to control other

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Speaker 6: people's actions and responses.

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Speaker 5: No, we don't.

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Speaker 3: And while many many schools will do this very well,

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Speaker 3: I hear too many stories of schools who are still

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Speaker 3: struggling with this and who are not dealing with aggression

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Speaker 3: or bullies and inappropriate behavior effectively enough that is it's

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Speaker 3: still cantinuing. So my response to that would be has

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Speaker 3: the behavior stopped or is my child still feeling scared

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Speaker 3: and anxious and being physically intimidated. If there's ongoing problems,

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Speaker 3: if the problem clearly has not been addressed so that

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Speaker 3: it is stopping, then you either go back to the

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Speaker 3: school and say things need to change, or if you're

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Speaker 3: and not everybody is, but if you're in a position

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Speaker 3: where you have the resources or the freedom to choose,

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Speaker 3: find somewhere else, because clearly that particular school might not

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Speaker 3: be doing the job that they need to.

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Speaker 6: So we had a wonderful experience sort of in the

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Speaker 6: realm of this with our eight year old school recently

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Speaker 6: where he got into.

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Speaker 4: A tussle, a tussle over football, an alter case. Yes,

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Speaker 4: child did not see idle.

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Speaker 2: It was an incident and it did get physical. Our

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Speaker 2: son was actively involved in that, as was the other child.

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Speaker 2: School handled it absolutely beautifully, so very beautifully, and they

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Speaker 2: have a time that basically if there is any physical

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Speaker 2: contact in our school purpose it straight away, which means

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Speaker 2: you go to the room where there's a teacher and

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Speaker 2: you have to.

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Speaker 4: Talk it out.

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Speaker 2: You were sat down with the child and you have

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Speaker 2: to have a conversation, and both parents us sent a

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Speaker 2: note home that has to be signed and returned to

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Speaker 2: the school in order for the incident report to be

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Speaker 2: closed off. So we only found out that this happened

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Speaker 2: when the note came home.

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Speaker 6: Because because our child had forgotten to tell us through

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Speaker 6: the process. So they then followed it up to make

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Speaker 6: sure that we knew and that we'd had the conversation.

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Speaker 6: And in the end, when we got to them, they said, look,

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Speaker 6: we believe the situation was sorted on the day, so

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Speaker 6: that's why we're not.

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Speaker 4: Panicked about it. We spoke to them, They apologized to

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Speaker 4: each other. We didn't feel like it went too far.

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Speaker 4: Everything was good. We just want you to know that

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Speaker 4: it happened and consequence.

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Speaker 5: Some things don't need to be turned into mountains. Yeah exactly,

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Speaker 5: But when it.

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Speaker 3: Keeps on going, that's when we've got to dive in.

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Speaker 3: And it sounds like your school's doing a great job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah they all did, Yeah exactly. If only they all

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Speaker 2: did like that and that's and that's it is. It

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Speaker 2: takes a village to raise a child, and our school

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Speaker 2: community is a part of that village, and we do

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Speaker 2: need them on side, both to help our children where

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Speaker 2: they're at the aggressor to learn a different way, and

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Speaker 2: if our children, if our child is a victim, to

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Speaker 2: help them actually survive or cope in that kind of

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Speaker 2: environment as well.

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Speaker 6: So the moral of the story is, if you five

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Speaker 6: year old gets punched in the face, hunt down the

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Speaker 6: other child.

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Speaker 4: That's not where we are.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Doctor Justin Coulson, Happy Families dot com.

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Speaker 5: That are you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for kind of talking this out with us.

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Speaker 4: We appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Great to be here.

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Speaker 2: episode as soon as it is uploaded. For more information

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Speaker 2: on all of doctor Justin Coulson's books, programs, and podcasts,

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Speaker 2: go to Happy Families dot com dot Au, or if

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Speaker 2: school or event. Go to Justin Coulson dot com