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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 3: Now, I like to say hashtag sooner is safer because

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Speaker 3: you cannot predict when that child is going to be

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Speaker 3: exposed to pornography.

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Speaker 4: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum

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Speaker 4: and Dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six

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Speaker 2: books about raising happy families and the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com Dot You today a very special guest.

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Speaker 2: I'm really excited to be able to talk about something

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Speaker 2: that matters a great deal. In the next couple of weeks,

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Speaker 2: We've got a summit called Bringing Up Boys coming up,

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Speaker 2: and the topic we're going to discuss just now with

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Speaker 2: Kristin Jensen from Defend Young Minds is a subject that

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Speaker 2: affects well over ninety percent of our young men. Research

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Speaker 2: suggests that it could be as much by the age

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Speaker 2: of fifteen as ninety nine percent of them are involved

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Speaker 2: with viewing, whether intentionally or otherwise, explicit content online pornography.

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Speaker 2: And that's something that Kristin has got a lot to

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Speaker 2: talk to us about right now. Kristen's the founder of

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Speaker 2: Defend Young Minds and the best selling author of Good Pictures,

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Speaker 2: Bad Pictures, porn Proofing Today's young Kids, and also Good

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Speaker 2: Pictures Bad Pictures Junior, a Simple Plan to Protect young minds.

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Speaker 2: Kristin is also a mum of three, grandma to two,

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Speaker 2: and lives in the United States in Washington State or

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Speaker 2: is that pronounced Washington? How do you say that, Kristen,

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Speaker 2: because I've heard both Washington. You're a Washing You're a

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Speaker 2: Washington person. Okay, every now and again I met somebody

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Speaker 2: who's from Washington, and I always always smile when I

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Speaker 2: hear that. It doesn't read like there's an R there. So, Kristen,

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Speaker 2: We've got a lot to talk about. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for joining me on the podcast. My first question

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Speaker 2: is a confronting reality. I regularly hear from parents of

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Speaker 2: kids as young as seven or eight, sometimes even younger,

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Speaker 2: although usual it's around seven or eight, who have found

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Speaker 2: that the kids that is, have found or they've been

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Speaker 2: shown explicit content pornographic content online. I don't use the

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Speaker 2: term adult content. I know a lot of people are like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's adult content. I don't think that it's appropriate to

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Speaker 2: suggest that it's universally something that adults are seeking access to.

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Speaker 2: So I prefer to call it explicit content or pornography.

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Speaker 2: So these kids have been on the school bus and

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Speaker 2: somebody's shown them this explicit content, or they've been told

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Speaker 2: to look something up online, or they've had a big

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Speaker 2: kid to a sleepover, expose them to harmful content. What

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Speaker 2: do you think is the basic message about this that

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Speaker 2: every parent needs to understand and act on.

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Speaker 4: Well, a couple of things. First of all, I say

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Speaker 4: that every school bus in America and other places is

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Speaker 4: a you know, triple X rated movie theater. Really, so it.

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Speaker 2: Makes me shut out. I hear you say that, and

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Speaker 2: I know it's true, but I just think, no, this

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Speaker 2: is why I want my kids to catch the school bus.

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Speaker 2: And I know how many parents feel that way.

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Speaker 4: Well, they're going to see it sometime. It's a matter

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Speaker 4: of being prepared, right, So they need to be prepared,

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Speaker 4: because none of us do very well when we're caught

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Speaker 4: off guard. When children are prepared and understand what to

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Speaker 4: do when they see pornography, then they have a real choice.

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Speaker 4: They have a better choice to turn away. And when

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Speaker 4: you educate them, then you have then they really have

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Speaker 4: a chance to make a good decision. You know about

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Speaker 4: bad pictures, So I would say parents. The message is

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Speaker 4: parents need to prepare their children early because they will

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Speaker 4: see it at some point. The second message is that kids,

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Speaker 4: good kids, get pulled into porn. I mean, it's not

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Speaker 4: that they're bad kids, and it has nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with the fact that you're a wonderful parent either. It's

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Speaker 4: out there, and so they need to learn defensive strategies

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Speaker 4: against it. They need to learn to protect themselves because

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Speaker 4: we can't completely protect them from it. We can do

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Speaker 4: everything we can filters and conversation everything. We should try

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Speaker 4: all of that and do all of that because we

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Speaker 4: have a duty of care actually to do all that.

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Speaker 4: But we need to prepare them to defend themselves. So

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Speaker 4: that's really the point of my books and the curriculum

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Speaker 4: that we've developed is to help children learn what to

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Speaker 4: do when they see pornography. And there's a lot of

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Speaker 4: success stories in here all the time. One of my

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Speaker 4: favorites is a mom read her nine year old son

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Speaker 4: good pictures, bad pictures, and he went to school and

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Speaker 4: three days later on the playground right he was shown

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Speaker 4: pornography by another student with a smartphone, and he looked,

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Speaker 4: he saw, he recognized it. He went home. He told

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Speaker 4: his mom and he said, I was scared, but I

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Speaker 4: knew what to do, And you can just feel the

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Speaker 4: burden coming off of his shoulders. I was scared, but

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Speaker 4: I knew what to do. Sometimes porn is scary at

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Speaker 4: the same time that it's very intriguing to these kids.

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Speaker 4: So we also need to teach them that, you know,

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Speaker 4: it's they're not about kid. If they are interested, it's

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Speaker 4: just that it's bad for them, and so it's important

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Speaker 4: for them to teach them early.

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Speaker 2: So when do you encourage parents to start talking about

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Speaker 2: bad pictures? Because you're saying start early, and obviously have

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Speaker 2: the conversation often. How early?

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Speaker 4: How often? So I would say it's not an exact

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Speaker 4: it's whenever your child has any access to the internet,

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Speaker 4: because once they're on the internet, there are no iron gates.

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Speaker 4: It's difficult once they're out there, and kids, especially as

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Speaker 4: they get a little older, they learn ways to get

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Speaker 4: around what we think might be barriers. And we also

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Speaker 4: think that they wouldn't be interested until they get to

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Speaker 4: be of an age where they're going through puberty. But

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Speaker 4: that's not true. Young kids can be very interested in

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Speaker 4: this material unfortunately. So I would say When I first started,

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Speaker 4: I was writing the book for seven year olds seven

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Speaker 4: to eleven, and I thought I got people saying seven,

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Speaker 4: that's way too early. But then I had parents come

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Speaker 4: up to me and say, hey, do you have a

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Speaker 4: book for preschoolers? And I just remember the first time

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Speaker 4: a mom came up to me and asked me that,

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Speaker 4: I felt like someone had, you know, punched me in

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Speaker 4: the gut because what three year olds? But then I

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Speaker 4: look around, you know, every three year old seems like

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Speaker 4: they're on some kind of a tablet or a device.

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Speaker 4: And so I wrote Good Pictures a Bad Pictures Junior

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Speaker 4: because I had so many parents that they saw the

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Speaker 4: need and they asked me to write it. So these

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Speaker 4: are things that you need to start early. The earlier

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Speaker 4: you started, the more comfortable it's going to be. I

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Speaker 4: like to say hashtag sooner is safer because you cannot

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Speaker 4: predict when that child is going to be exposed to pornography.

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Speaker 4: You just can't. Most parents are surprised. In fact, there's

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Speaker 4: a huge naivete gap. They've done studies on this recently,

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Speaker 4: one done in the UK that showed that when they

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Speaker 4: ask parents, you know, how many of you think that

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Speaker 4: your kid is seeing porn? Twenty five percent of them

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Speaker 4: said yes. Then they asked their own kids and it

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Speaker 4: was fifty three percent. That's a huge gap, more than

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Speaker 4: double had actually seen porn. And when it came to girls,

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Speaker 4: it was the gap was even bigger because parents don't

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Speaker 4: think that their daughters are going to be interested or

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Speaker 4: have a problem with it, but they do. And so

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Speaker 4: we need to protect our daughters as well as our

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Speaker 4: sons by having these conversations and teaching them from a

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Speaker 4: young age. So I would say start by three, or

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Speaker 4: anytime they have access to any kind of device, whether

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Speaker 4: it's in your home or in someone else's home, talk.

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Speaker 2: Us through a conversation. If you've got to bring this

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Speaker 2: up with the kids, what do you start, How does

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Speaker 2: this happen? And would you suggest that it should change

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Speaker 2: as your child gets so older?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely? Absolutely everything changes as they get older. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: so start out with just the basics and then my

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Speaker 4: Good Pictures Bad Pictures Junior book. It's very simple, very gentle,

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Speaker 4: and it just teaches children to one recognize what a

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Speaker 4: bad picture is, to understand that it's harmful, and three

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Speaker 4: know what to do, have a plan so they know

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Speaker 4: what to do when they see it. So a definition,

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Speaker 4: a warning, and a plan, and the definition just needs

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Speaker 4: to be something very simple. The one we use when

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Speaker 4: I use in the book is something like, you know,

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Speaker 4: pornography or bad pictures are pictures of people with little

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Speaker 4: or no clothing on that focus on the private parts

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Speaker 4: of the body that we keep covered with swimsuit. Now

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Speaker 4: that some people say, oh, that's too simple, that's just nudity.

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Speaker 4: You know, we don't want to be body negative, we

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Speaker 4: want to be body positive all that stuff. Look, I

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Speaker 4: get it, I'm body positive, I'm sex positive. But you know,

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Speaker 4: you really need to keep in mind that you're talking

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Speaker 4: with a child and you have to keep it very simple.

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Speaker 4: So start out with a simple definition, and then talk

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Speaker 4: about the you know why it's harmful, and we have

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Speaker 4: a lot of that information in the books. And then

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Speaker 4: third give them a plan. So with the Gender Book,

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Speaker 4: it's turn run and tell, and we give you know,

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Speaker 4: kids like little actions of what they can do to

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Speaker 4: practice this. And then with the older kids, it's the

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Speaker 4: can do plan and it really gives those kids the

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Speaker 4: five steps they need to go through to not only

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Speaker 4: deal with pornography in the moment that they see it,

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Speaker 4: but also what happens when those memories keep popping back

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Speaker 4: up in your mind. The brain is wired and designed

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Speaker 4: to remember shocking things. So I remember, where's the porn? Well,

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Speaker 4: how do you minimize that so it doesn't bother the child?

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Speaker 4: And so the child isn't tempted to go and look.

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Speaker 4: So those things are all explained, and it's important to

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Speaker 4: have a plan in place. So again a definition, a warning,

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Speaker 4: and a plan, and you ask also how should those

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Speaker 4: conversations change over time.

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Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Kristin Jensen. She's the author of Good Pictures,

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Speaker 2: Bad Pictures and also the CEO of Defend Young Minds.

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Speaker 2: Right after the break, we're going to find out why

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Speaker 2: some parents are so dismissive of pornography or explicit content

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Speaker 2: and how we can help them, and also look at

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Speaker 2: some of the research go a bit deeper into how

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Speaker 2: porn can harm kids. It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 1: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 1: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 1: of Disciplined is a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 1: with love, compassion and humanity. Find it now at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot au slash Shop.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers Now. Kristin Jensen, the

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Speaker 2: author of Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, joins me for a

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Speaker 2: conversation about pornography.

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Speaker 1: Christin.

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Speaker 2: A few years ago, I attended a conference called porn

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Speaker 2: Harm's Kids. It seems that in the research arena there

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Speaker 2: are some people who will argue that pornography is not

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Speaker 2: universally and always harmful for adults. It's a fairly touchy subject,

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Speaker 2: and there are some invested interests involved in that research.

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Speaker 2: But one thing that I seem to be seeing across

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Speaker 2: the entire research arena is pretty well universal agreement that

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Speaker 2: pornography does harm children. Can you tell me a little

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Speaker 2: bit more about why this is the case? How it does?

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Speaker 4: Sure? Well, pornography sexualizes children at a young, very young age,

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Speaker 4: so it's premature. They're not ready to be sexualized. They're

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Speaker 4: not ready to make these decisions or understand these things.

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Speaker 4: We see pornography leaking into an influencing pop culture. So

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Speaker 4: kids want to look sexy when they're seven years old,

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Speaker 4: I mean, so we see that that's a harm. It

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Speaker 4: disrupts the normal childhood development. Again, children we are not

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Speaker 4: designed to be sexual until they're much older, until their

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Speaker 4: thinking brain has developed a little bit more and they

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Speaker 4: can make better decisions, and it warps their attitudes about sex.

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Speaker 4: So where I would say most parents want their children

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Speaker 4: to believe that sex is a positive, loving thing that

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Speaker 4: bonds people together, people that love each other, respect each other,

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Speaker 4: trust each other. You know, pornography teaches the exact opposite.

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Speaker 4: It's self centered, often violent pornography really gives them a

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Speaker 4: toxic script about sex that really impacts their ability to

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Speaker 4: have an intimate sexual relationship when they're older and when

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Speaker 4: they're mature, when they're ready to do that. And I

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Speaker 4: have talked with so many people who have been pulled

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Speaker 4: into porn and they really struggle with that. We know

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Speaker 4: through research that porn changes sexual behavior and it increases

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Speaker 4: sexual violence and users a lot of good studies coming

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Speaker 4: out of Australia with that as well. And then porn

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Speaker 4: use fuels child on child harmful sexual behavior. So it's

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Speaker 4: hard when a child gets involved in pornography, but when

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Speaker 4: that pornography leads them to do harmful things on other children,

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Speaker 4: you've got a whole another big problem.

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Speaker 2: I recently had a podcast where an it teen year

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Speaker 2: old described his exposure and interest in pornography that began

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Speaker 2: when he was very young, way too young. His parents

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Speaker 2: had done all of the stuff that you've talked about today.

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Speaker 2: While they didn't necessarily have your book, They'd had regular conversations,

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Speaker 2: they'd walked through the harms and the risks. They'd given

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Speaker 2: him plans, and they had the internet filters, all the

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Speaker 2: right stuff. They did it all, but he still got

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Speaker 2: caught up in it to the point where he was

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Speaker 2: exploring explicit content up to seven to ten times per day.

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Speaker 2: He disclosed on the podcast. It feels like there's a

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Speaker 2: lot at stake. This is going to I'm going to

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Speaker 2: say this, I believe it's going to affect all of

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Speaker 2: his relationships throughout the rest of his life, particularly his

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Speaker 2: intimate ones, as he moves forward. What advice do you

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Speaker 2: have for a parent who has discovered that their child

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Speaker 2: is using pornography, particularly if they're using it intentionally and

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Speaker 2: regularly and they don't seem to be able to find

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Speaker 2: a way through it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, as you mention, as you said, I mean,

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Speaker 4: the pul porn is very strong and for some people

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Speaker 4: it's very very strong, and so parents can do everything

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Speaker 4: possible and the child still has their agency, their ability

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Speaker 4: to choose right. And as a parent myself, I know

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Speaker 4: there are things that I taught my kids and they

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Speaker 4: don't necessarily. They're struggling with some of those things still,

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Speaker 4: So it happens. I would say that some kids learn

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Speaker 4: by instruction, some kids learn by example, but some kids

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Speaker 4: have to learn by their own sad experience. And so

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Speaker 4: you are going to get these kids that you do

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Speaker 4: all the right things and they still get pulled into it.

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Speaker 4: First of all, we have a guide on defend Young Minds,

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Speaker 4: which is my kids out Porn, now what? So it

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Speaker 4: helps parents if there's a smart plan. It helps parents respond,

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Speaker 4: you know, and be prepared to respond to that so

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Speaker 4: that they respond in a helpful way. But I think

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Speaker 4: you have to accept that your child needs to want

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Speaker 4: to quit porn and it has to be for themselves

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Speaker 4: and not just to please you as a parent. But

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Speaker 4: in the end, you have to realize that love is

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Speaker 4: still the foundation of helping your child. Your relationship is

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Speaker 4: ultimately more important in the long term, and it will

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Speaker 4: help you help them because at some point, if you

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Speaker 4: have a good and a strong and a loving relationship

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Speaker 4: despite the fact that they're not behaving the way you

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Speaker 4: want them to behave you will have that influence, you

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Speaker 4: will have that ability to help, help and don't make

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Speaker 4: porn the wedge that comes between you and your child.

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Speaker 4: That's just the best advice I can get.

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Speaker 2: Such a such a valuable and important conversation. Kristin Jensen

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Speaker 2: from Defend Young Minds. If people want more info, where

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Speaker 2: should they go? What can they find?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, they can find us on Instagram, they can

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Speaker 4: find us on Facebook, and they can go to our

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Speaker 4: website Defend Youngminds dot com. We have a free guide

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Speaker 4: that they can download instantly and it's how to talk

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Speaker 4: to Kids about pornography, a quick start guide that gets

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Speaker 4: you up and running about this topic and some statistics,

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Speaker 4: and then we have other guides that are very helpful

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Speaker 4: as well. So check us out at Defend Youngminds dot

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Speaker 4: com and also check out our Brain Defense. We have

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Speaker 4: a new curriculum for kids ages eight to twelve and

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Speaker 4: it's video based. It's really fun and actually entertaining, and

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Speaker 4: so it's brain defense Digital safety. So check that out

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Speaker 4: as well on our website.

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Speaker 2: And Christin, you've been kind enough to share five copies

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Speaker 2: of Good Pictures Bad Pictures with us, plus five copies

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Speaker 2: of the junior version as well. Our Facebook page has

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Speaker 2: all the details on how anyone can win those books,

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Speaker 2: so jump over there right away for the details about that.

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Speaker 2: Every month, on the first Sunday of the month, my

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Speaker 2: family sits down and we have a conversation about topics

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Speaker 2: like pornography or intimacy or these big heavy topics. We

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Speaker 2: make it a point, we make it a date. It's

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Speaker 2: an every first Sunday of the month thing. And this

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Speaker 2: is a book that we are going to be discussing

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Speaker 2: in our next first Sunday discussion. I can't wait to

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Speaker 2: read it to my kids. So grateful for the conversation.

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Speaker 4: Thanks Kristin, thank you so much. And to all of

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Speaker 4: your listeners, make sure they know that they can get

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Speaker 4: Good Pictures Bad Pictures on Amazon in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Perfect. Thank you so much to Kristen Jensen from Defend

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Speaker 2: Young Minds. The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin

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Speaker 2: ruland Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and

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Speaker 2: for all the info you need, you can check out

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Speaker 2: the show notes for the links, or visit happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com, dot a u