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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os It's Thursday,

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Speaker 2: the fifteenth of December. I'm Sam, I'm Zarah. Last month,

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Speaker 2: the US Food Regulator said for the first time that

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Speaker 2: a type of so called lab grown meat was safe

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Speaker 2: to eat. But Singapore is still the only jurisdiction in

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Speaker 2: the world to allow the commercial sale of cultured meats.

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Speaker 2: So what does that all mean and how long before

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Speaker 2: you can get a lab grown sausage sizzle at your

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Speaker 2: local Bunnings. Well, I spoke to George pepu CEO and

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Speaker 2: founder of cultured meat company VOW.

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Speaker 3: I got in trouble at a vegan conference for saying

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Speaker 3: that I give a fuck about vegans. The reason VOW exists.

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Speaker 3: The reason I'm doing this is I want to make

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Speaker 3: the most enjoyable food the most satisfying and satiating food

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Speaker 3: on the planet. To change the habits of meat eaters.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to share that chat with you in the

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Speaker 2: Deep Dive. But first, what's making headlines this morning.

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Speaker 4: Federal Parliament will sit today even though the formal parliamentary

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Speaker 4: year is technically over. Parliament was recalled by Prime Minister

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Speaker 4: Anthony Albanesi to pass urgent laws enforcing price caps on

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Speaker 4: coal and gas. Greens leader Adam Bant said yesterday that

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Speaker 4: his party will support the government's proposal, which means the

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Speaker 4: legislation is set to pass.

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Speaker 2: One of the Queensland Police officers involved in a fatal

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Speaker 2: shootout at a rural property has undergone surgery. The procedure

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Speaker 2: was to remove shrapnel and repair injuries from the incident.

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Speaker 2: Constable Randall Kirk said he was a little sore but

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Speaker 2: otherwise feeling okay.

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Speaker 4: Anyone born after two thousand and eight won't be able

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Speaker 4: to legally purchased cigarettes in New Zealand for the entirety

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Speaker 4: of their lives. That's under new legislation which passed Parliament

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Speaker 4: this week. The law's aimed to reduce the strain caused

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Speaker 4: by tobacco use on the country's health system.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news. The Australian women's four by one

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Speaker 2: hundred freestyle realay team has set a new world record

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Speaker 2: in Melbourne on the back of an historic performance from

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Speaker 2: Emma McKean, Meg Harris, Molly O'Callahan, Manison Wilson and McKean

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Speaker 2: shaved more than a second that's a lot in swimming

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Speaker 2: off the previous world record, with McKean becoming the first

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Speaker 2: woman ever to finish her leg of the race in

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Speaker 2: under fifty seconds. After I heard the news that the

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Speaker 2: US Food and Drug Administration had declared the first meat

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Speaker 2: product grown from animal cells as safe to eat, I

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Speaker 2: wanted to know how far off Australia was from doing

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Speaker 2: the same thing, And I thought, who better to ask

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Speaker 2: than the man trying to make it happen.

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Speaker 3: Hey, my name's George. I'm one of the founders and

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Speaker 3: the CEO of VOW and we are a cultured meat

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Speaker 3: company based here in Sydney, Australia.

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Speaker 2: Interesting cultured meat. Now, is there a reason why we're

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Speaker 2: not calling it lab grown meat?

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Speaker 3: I mean there's several reasons. The first is it's just

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Speaker 3: not accurate. Is we developed this in a lab? But

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Speaker 3: we grow it in a factory, and so calling it

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Speaker 3: lab grown meat is the same as calling Oreo's lab

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Speaker 3: developed cookies. Yes, it's technically true they were developed in

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Speaker 3: a lab, but it's really not a very helpful way

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Speaker 3: of talking about food. So cultured meat is an accurate

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Speaker 3: description of what we're talking about. We actually had the

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Speaker 3: food regulator Glenn Neil from Food Standard Day and Dad.

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Speaker 3: Someone asked this question to him when he was on

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Speaker 3: a panel, and he just said, this is a food

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Speaker 3: labeling requirement. If they even try to call it lab

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Speaker 3: grown meat, that's not an accurate description, and I'll be

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Speaker 3: on them and enforcing accurate labeling.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, so we're going to call it cultured meat. Then,

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Speaker 2: in line with the food regulations. Now that we've got

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Speaker 2: the semantics sorted, let's take a step back. Why cultured meat?

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Speaker 3: Sure? So I'll kind of cover this in three sections.

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Speaker 3: The first section is why can't we produce more animals?

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Speaker 3: The second section is what makes meat so good? And

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Speaker 3: then the third section is what actually is cultured meat?

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Speaker 3: So to start with, basically, meat demand is going up

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Speaker 3: everywhere around the world. It's very easy when we sit

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Speaker 3: in inner city Sydney to think that there's this huge

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Speaker 3: vegan and vegetarian movement and it must be going the

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Speaker 3: other way, but that's not true. Is especially in places

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Speaker 3: like China, India, Africa, South America, as wealth increases, we

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Speaker 3: all do the same thing. We all start to add

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Speaker 3: more meat to our diet, and so globally meat consumption

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Speaker 3: the last I think seven years have been the global

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Speaker 3: record in meat consumption, breaking the record of the year before.

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Speaker 3: And so to meet that demand, you just have to

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Speaker 3: cram more animals into the same space. You have to

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Speaker 3: clear land to grow food crops to feed those animals,

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Speaker 3: and none of that is good for the animals themselves.

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Speaker 3: None of that is good for the emissions those animals create.

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Speaker 3: No one looks at a twenty six story factory farm

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Speaker 3: for pigs in China and says, hell, yeah, I want

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Speaker 3: that to exist. I want more of this, And so

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Speaker 3: then you have this problem as an individual like me,

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Speaker 3: I like eating meat. You might do as well, but

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Speaker 3: we don't look at the way meat produced and think

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Speaker 3: we want more of that. So then the question is

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Speaker 3: how do we get the good parts of animals without

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Speaker 3: having to produce them? And so the first question you

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Speaker 3: need to answer is wise meat so good? And the

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Speaker 3: very very simple answer if you go and talk to

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Speaker 3: meat experts is they basically say, we don't know, but

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Speaker 3: it's really really complicated, and a lot of that complexity

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Speaker 3: is what drives that satiation and that satisfaction. When you

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Speaker 3: eat a beef burger compared to a veggie burger, there

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Speaker 3: is something about the way it feels in your mouth,

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Speaker 3: the way that feels in your stomach, the way it

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Speaker 3: feels three hours after you've eaten, which is different. It's

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Speaker 3: very very hard to articulate, and that comes from all

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Speaker 3: of these different complex molecules we find in those animal

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Speaker 3: tissues in combination. And so then if you look at

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Speaker 3: the other ways to make it, you look at plant

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Speaker 3: based and you say, well, that's never going to have

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Speaker 3: the complement of molecules. That's never going to give that

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Speaker 3: complexity in the satisfaction. And so how do we get

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Speaker 3: that without having to grow a whole animal? And that's

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Speaker 3: what cultured meat does. So when you're sitting there in

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Speaker 3: front of a steak or in front of a chicken breast,

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Speaker 3: what you're really eating is muscle, and that muscle contains

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Speaker 3: a bunch of different cells like muscle cells, fat cells,

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Speaker 3: connective tissue cells, vessels, and a whole bunch of immune cells,

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Speaker 3: and a very small subset of those driving most of

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Speaker 3: the sensory experience and most of the satisfaction. What we

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Speaker 3: do in cultured meat is we take a sample of

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Speaker 3: tissue and we separate out the cells that can repair muscle, fat,

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Speaker 3: and connective tissue cells of a few other cell types. We

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Speaker 3: place them in an environment where we basically trick them

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Speaker 3: into thinking they need to grow and grow and grow,

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Speaker 3: doubling into more and more of themselves in this big

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Speaker 3: stainless steel vessel called a cultivator, and then when we're ready,

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Speaker 3: we harvest those and we can turn them into a

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Speaker 3: finished food product. So you get that complexity, you get

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Speaker 3: that satisfaction in that satiation of eating animal tissue. But

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Speaker 3: we're only growing the parts that we want to eat.

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Speaker 3: We're not growing the entire animal. We're not growing the

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Speaker 3: entire animal just to eat, you know, twenty to forty

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Speaker 3: percent of it, depending on what you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Have you had conversations with vegetarians or vegetarian friends about

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Speaker 2: your product, Like, what's the kind of sentiment on the

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Speaker 2: ground from their perspective.

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Speaker 3: So I got asked this question a lot, and I

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Speaker 3: got in trouble at a vegan conference. I'm not a vegan,

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Speaker 3: I'm a meat eater. I got in trouble at a

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Speaker 3: vegan conference for saying that I don't give a fuck

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Speaker 3: about vegans. And where that really comes from is the

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Speaker 3: reason vow exists. The reason I'm doing this is I

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Speaker 3: want to make the most enjoyable food, the most satisfying

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Speaker 3: and satiating food on the planet, to make to change

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Speaker 3: the habits of meat eaters. If you're a vegan and

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Speaker 3: you're going to eat a block of tofu and instead

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Speaker 3: you're going to eat the piece of cultured meat, at best,

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Speaker 3: you're going incrementally backwards, you're probably having a slightly making

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Speaker 3: a slightly more impactful dietary decision. And so my preference

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Speaker 3: is for vegetarians not to be eating our products and

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Speaker 3: instead for meat eater is to be choosing them because

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Speaker 3: they're more satisfying, more nutritious, or just more enjoyable food.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So chasing the existing meat eaters to change their habits,

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Speaker 2: exactly when are we going to be able to buy

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Speaker 2: of our products off the shelf in Australia.

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Speaker 3: So we're doing our best to come to market towards

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Speaker 3: the end of next year. In Australia, we're working very

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Speaker 3: closely with Food Standard danes At and have been for

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Speaker 3: quite some time now. They've seen a complete set of

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Speaker 3: safety from US, or a complete draft set of safety

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Speaker 3: data from US, and gave us heaps and heaps of

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Speaker 3: feedback which we've incorporated, and then we're going to be

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Speaker 3: giving the final updated version of that safety data just

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Speaker 3: before Christmas. And it takes them no more than twelve

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Speaker 3: months to go through that review process and then a

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Speaker 3: couple of months for public comment after that. So best

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Speaker 3: case is towards the end of next year.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So right now I could say that Thow products

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Speaker 2: are illegal, and that was what There was a great

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Speaker 2: headline in the news that the new factory making meat

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Speaker 2: that's illegal to eat. Yes, where are you? What are

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Speaker 2: you going to do with the meat that you're cultivating now?

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Speaker 3: So we're launching first in Singapore. So we've been working

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Speaker 3: with the Singaporean regulator for quite some time and the

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Speaker 3: intention is as soon as we get approval in Singapore,

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Speaker 3: we're going to be exporting the food that we're producing

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Speaker 3: here in Sydney to Singapore for sale, whilst we build

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Speaker 3: up manufacturing capacity somewhere in Asia to serve that market

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Speaker 3: in the long term. So it's not going to waste,

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Speaker 3: it's not just going to be eaten by me. It's

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Speaker 3: going to be it's going to be heading over to Singapore.

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Speaker 2: What's the feedback you're getting from the food regulators in

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Speaker 2: Australia with what they're actually concerned about, especially after the

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Speaker 2: FDA in the US approved lab grown meat or cultured meat.

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Speaker 2: What's the sentiment from regulators here.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, mostly it's been in patience. They've been just saying,

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Speaker 3: give us data, give it to us, give us the

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Speaker 3: data now, and so now we're able to give them

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Speaker 3: the full data. They basically if you think about the

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Speaker 3: role of the food regulator, it's to make sure that

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Speaker 3: we are competent to manage the risk of food. And

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Speaker 3: there's some parts of what we're doing which are really

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Speaker 3: really standard. It's like, do we get it in the

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Speaker 3: fridge quickly enough, do we code individual packages so that

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Speaker 3: you can run a recall. All of that stuff is

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Speaker 3: standard regardless of the food you're making. But where we've

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Speaker 3: spent most of our time is talking about the novel

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Speaker 3: risks of culturing cells as a way of producing food,

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Speaker 3: what new risks could be introduced, and what level of

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Speaker 3: controls we're providing to protect from those risks, and are

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Speaker 3: those grounded and really really strong scientific data, And so

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Speaker 3: a lot of that comes down to things like are

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Speaker 3: the cells changing in a way which could be dangerous?

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Speaker 3: Are there any allergens that may not be expected, and

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Speaker 3: are we being really really considerate around making sure they

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Speaker 3: don't cause any allergies? And is there anything that we're

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Speaker 3: growing the cells in that if it was accumulated and

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Speaker 3: in the final product, could present harm. And so there's

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Speaker 3: nothing very complex. Each of those are relatively straightforward. We

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Speaker 3: have a huge responsibility and the regulator also has that

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Speaker 3: huge shares that responsibility to make sure that we are

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Speaker 3: providing food that is extremely safe. And so there's a

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Speaker 3: very very they're not very much margin for errors you

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Speaker 3: can imagine in food, and they want to be very

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Speaker 3: certain that we are understand and are controlling for all

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Speaker 3: of those risks.

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Speaker 2: And I imagine there's nothing worse for a brand than

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Speaker 2: having a story written about you and the daily os

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Speaker 2: for a recall notice. So some of those some of

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Speaker 2: those kind of steps are obviously vital to the business

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Speaker 2: success as well. Absolutely, speaking of the business, what's the

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Speaker 2: kind of price point that you'd be looking at for consumers?

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Speaker 3: Our strategy has always been to start with expensive, small

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Speaker 3: volume products. We never set out to come straight to

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Speaker 3: the supermarket or be in a regular or burger. This

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Speaker 3: is to begin with a luxury product. But the reason

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Speaker 3: we're building this company is to build the biggest food

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Speaker 3: company on the planet, and so we want this to

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Speaker 3: become the cheapest and the default protein source in the

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Speaker 3: long term. So to start with, it's going to be really,

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Speaker 3: really expensive. You're only going to be finding it at

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Speaker 3: the most expensive restaurants with the best possible chefs, and

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Speaker 3: that's a very intentional decision. We want your first contact

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Speaker 3: with cultured meat to be extraordinary and to kind of

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Speaker 3: open up this new set of culinary opportunities. Over time,

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Speaker 3: you'll start to see that coming into premium food service,

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Speaker 3: premium food retail a couple of years later, and then

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Speaker 3: eventually every supermarket multiple offerings on the shelf from the

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Speaker 3: absolute lowest to the highest price point. But to begin with,

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Speaker 3: it's going to be very expensive, and you're only going

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Speaker 3: to be seeing it at very high end restaurants.

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Speaker 2: Give me a sense of the timeline because I'm really

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Speaker 2: keen to understand if you're talking about fifty years, if

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Speaker 2: you're talking about five years, like when are we going

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Speaker 2: to see our sausages all outside Bunnings with cultured meat?

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Speaker 3: Five years? So the I'm trying to think of the

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Speaker 3: orders and magnitude. I think we've dropped our costs more

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Speaker 3: than one hundred times in the last twelve months, right,

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Speaker 3: and as we move into building our second factory, in

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Speaker 3: our third factory, those increments and scales are big, big

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Speaker 3: drivers of cost down. So by the end of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty four, we want to be under fifty dollars a

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Speaker 3: kilo consistently. There's a lot of work to do to

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Speaker 3: get there. That there's nothing fundamentally new that we need

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Speaker 3: to invent. There's a lot of incremental improvements apply chin

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Speaker 3: optimization and automation, and then beyond that, by the end

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Speaker 3: of the decade, we want to be at or cheaper

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Speaker 3: than commodity need products.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for that, Georsh, no problem.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for joining us on the daily ours. If we

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Speaker 4: learned something from today's episode, don't forget to hit subscribe,

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Speaker 4: We'll be back again to my horrow morning, but until then,

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Speaker 4: have a brilliant day.

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Speaker 3: M